In an interview with Collider, Janty Yates (costume designer) talks about reinventing spacesuits for Scott's Alien: Covenant and continuing on one look from Prometheus as well as how the sequel will take place ten years after the events of the last film:
http://collider.com/costume-designer-janty-yates-the-martian-alien-covenant-interview/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=collidersocial (http://collider.com/costume-designer-janty-yates-the-martian-alien-covenant-interview/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=collidersocial)
Listening now. There will be two new space suits but it's not a "space suit movie".
So I'm assuming the air on Paradise will probably be perfectly breathable then? No need for helmets? :laugh:
Wow
10 years ?? That's 2104 right, so how does a colony ship get that far from earth ?? In 10 years ??
Quote from: oduodu on Dec 30, 2015, 07:35:57 PM
Wow
10 years ?? That's 2104 right, so how does a colony ship get that far from earth ?? In 10 years ??
How long did the Promtheus expedition take?
Maybe they got their hands on some of that Engineer FTL tech?
The Covenant might have left earth much longer than 10 years ago. The events of Prometheus wouldn't necessarily have had any influence on the colony ship's date of departure. Perhaps they stumbled upon the planet or David radioed them an invite when he saw they were in the vicinity.
Quote from: tmjhur on Dec 30, 2015, 07:47:19 PM
How long did the Promtheus expedition take?
2 years, 4 months, 18 days, 36 hours, 15 minutes.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Dec 30, 2015, 07:48:51 PM
The Covenant might have left earth much longer than 10 years ago. The events of Prometheus wouldn't necessarily have had any influence on the colony ship's date of departure. Perhaps they stumbled upon the planet or David radioed them an invite when he saw they were in the vicinity.
Well it's probably just a Yutani ship init?
Quote from: tmjhur on Dec 30, 2015, 08:29:47 PM
Well it's probably just a Yutani ship init?
Name's not Japonesque enough sounding methinks.
Quote from: oduodu on Dec 30, 2015, 07:35:57 PM
10 years ?? That's 2104 right
With regards to the "Ripley" connection, the new date means she would already have been born and would be around 10 years old in Alien: Covenant.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Dec 30, 2015, 07:10:03 PM
So I'm assuming the air on Paradise will probably be perfectly breathable then? No need for helmets? :laugh:
A "no problem of contamination at all" line = a lot of happy people :D
Up to you to take it canon or not but according to weylandindustries.com, the first FTL-capable SEV (space exploration vehicle) is introduced on January 17, 2034. Best case scenario then : 70 years to reach the far side of the galaxy which is about 100 000 light-years wide.
So the 'far side' isn't what we think (Paradise being in the sagittarius arm in Spaihts' script) ... or the colony ship is an alien ship.
Cough similar to Aliens cough
Quote from: oduodu on Dec 30, 2015, 07:35:57 PM
Wow
10 years ?? That's 2104 right, so how does a colony ship get that far from earth ?? In 10 years ??
Perhaps the farside of the galaxy comment was a bit of exaggeration and not literal.
only thing i want is shaw to return
According to the Weyland-Yutani Report, the company merger would have happened by the time covenant tales place.
According to the Weyland industries timeline
1) Hypersleep chambers were patented in 2030
2) FTL was discovered in 2032
3) First FTL ship was built in 2034
So it's possible that the Covenant was launched around 2035-2040 and had FTL/Hypersleep capabilities.
I guess it's also possible that it was launched earlier and was meant to be a slow moving sub-FTL multi-generation ship, but got sucked into a wormhole or some other space anomaly mcguffin.
Time dilation people. Who's time is it? Ours or theirs?
Quote from: whiterabbit on Dec 31, 2015, 12:48:40 AM
Time dilation people. Who's time is it? Ours or theirs?
Time dilation affects those who are traveling at relativistic speeds. In fact traveling at 90% the speed of light only yields a ratio of 0.436 : 1
So for every year that passes to the stationary observer, the crew of the ship experiences about 159 days. Time is definitely slowed down, but not by that much. Things start getting interesting if you can approach 99.9% the speed of light.
If Covenant takes place 10 years after Prometheus, we are looking at a date of 2103?
Assuming (for fun) the ship was launched in 2030 with sub FTL, but could travel at 99.9% of the speed of light. The time dilation ratio is 0.045 to 1
1) The planet they land on is about 80LY from earth
2) 80yr x 365 days = 29,200 days as observed from earth
3) It would take 3.7 years accelerating at 1g to hit 99.9% the speed of light, and the same in amount of time to decelerate to a stop. The ship would travel 20.7LY during the acceleration, and 20.7LY during the deceleration. 38.6LY would be spent traveling at the .045 time dilation.
3) 38.6 years = 14,089 days x .045 = 634 days (or 1.7 yrs) pass to the people on the Covenant.
4) 3.7 + 1.7 +3.7 = 9.1 years pass to the crew members of the Covenant on flight of 80LY, traveling at 99.9% the speed of light, and accelerating/decelerating at 1g.
:) Watch my math be totally wrong
Nice. More importantly, though, no one in Hollywood gives a shit if you're math was right or not. Remember... the Narcissus took 57 years to 'float through the core systems' and you can bet Cameron wasn't too interested in whether the shuttle had FTL or not to tell his story. Presumably, it lacks that function.
After all, it took Voyager 36 years to enter interstellar space... it's a long haul between the Solar System's outer edge and the next stop without the luxury of FTL no matter how you add the figures up.
Either way, 'ALIEN' depicts a fair fictional representation of space travel. It is hard, awkward, uncomfortable, costly, dangerous and lonely. I think that's more important in terms of telling a story than getting the math right.
Unless it's non-fiction, accuracy be damned, I say. Never let the facts get in the way of telling a good story. ;)
-Windebieste.
Quote from: windebieste on Dec 31, 2015, 02:19:10 AM
Nice. More importantly, though, no one in Hollywood gives a shit if you're math was right or not. Remember... the Narcissus took 57 years to 'float through the core systems' and you can bet Cameron wasn't too interested in whether the shuttle had FTL or not to tell his story. Presumably, it lacks that function.
After all, it took Voyager 36 years to enter interstellar space... it's a long haul between the Solar System's outer edge and the next stop without the luxury of FTL no matter how you add the figures up.
Either way, 'ALIEN' depicts a fair fictional representation of space travel. It is hard, awkward, uncomfortable, costly, dangerous and lonely. I think that's more important in terms of telling a story than getting the math right.
Unless it's non-fiction, accuracy be damned, I say. Never let the facts get in the way of telling a good story. ;)
-Windebieste.
I agree with you completely.
I just hate it when things are so obviously wrong that it stinks out loud. I do a little bit of amateur astronomy at the house so I do have some concept how far away objects are. I don't expect everyone watching hard sci-fi to know specifics such as light travels around 6 trillion miles in one year. But... When Vickers used her infamous "half a billion miles from every man on earth" line I thought my head was going to explode. That's around the distance from Earth to Jupiter.
Obviously "half a billion" rolls off the tongue better than 2.0574749335x10^14th
For sure. Unfortunately, it's not Hollywood's responsibility to educate anyone. Entertainment is their game - and all the caveats that come with it have to be taken on face value.
So 'ALIEN: Covenant' takes place 10 years after 'Prometheus'? I can live with that. What has me curious is why is this necessary? How is it critical to the narrative? At least they aren't divorcing it from the series to the same degree that 'ALIEN: Resurrection' was. Setting it 200 years further into the future only removed that movie entirely from the rest of the series, cementing the trilogy +1.
Maybe we are going to see the inverse of that situation. 'Prometheus' becomes the 1 + a trilogy.
I'm hoping this all works out and I have my reservations just like anyone else; but I'm not prepared to pass too much judgment on it just yet, either. I totally get that science in these movies is adjusted to suit the story. That sometimes the facts are bent to accommodate the narrative. I get that. What I don't support is poor characters - of which 'Prometheus' was overburdened with. I'm hoping this trilogy lifts its game in this department.
I can tolerate almost any hokey science if the story, characters and cinematic style are well executed. After all, look at 'Star Wars'... it's a fun movie, but watching those movies to rely on an education in science is like relying on McDonalds to be the voice of good food nutrition.
It's all good fun but you'd be a fool to do so in any serious capacity.
-Windebieste.
It's just an arbitrary time frame. Although I'm not even sure if this(these) movies have to all take place before Alien. I know that the 3rd movie is supposed to run into Alien as a prequel. However just how many of us really want or need that to happen? To be honest I'd rather have this run parallel to Alien. I understand that Ridley wants to tell the space jockey's story but he could do that just as well by alluding to it through the Trilogy. Actually it would be neat if he retained the "fossilized" space jockey and made it a true GOD or hero. Basically anything. Then from what ever knowledge the Covenant and subsequent travelers learn, would lead them to the holy grail. Which is what the Nostromo eventually runs into. Yea I prefer some round about way of telling his story, rather than having the ship crash land in modern times. Although Shaw being the corpse inside of the suit does tickle my fancy, if just a little.
In another interview with Collider, Cinematographer Dariusz Wolski briefly touches upon Alien: Covenant and how he will push for 65mm.
65 and 70mm film is a wide high-resolution format that has almost double the resolution of standard 35mm motion picture film. It also gives a much grander and epic feel to the film. Examples of films shot in this format are, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Lawrence of Arabia, The Hateful Eight, Ben-Hur, Alien 3 (effects work only) The Empire Strikes Back (effects work only) and Blade Runner (effects work only)
http://collider.com/cinematographer-dariusz-wolski-the-martian-alien-covenant-dark-city-interview/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=collidersocial (http://collider.com/cinematographer-dariusz-wolski-the-martian-alien-covenant-dark-city-interview/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=collidersocial)
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Dec 31, 2015, 05:30:10 PM
In another interview with Collider, Cinematographer Dariusz Wolski briefly touches upon Alien: Covenant and how he will push for 65mm.
65 and 70mm film is a wide high-resolution format that has almost double the resolution of standard 35mm motion picture film. It also gives a much grander and epic feel to the film. Examples of films shot in this format are, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Lawrence of Arabia, The Hateful Eight, Ben-Hur, Alien 3 (effects work only) The Empire Strikes Back (effects work only) and Blade Runner (effects work only)
http://collider.com/cinematographer-dariusz-wolski-the-martian-alien-covenant-dark-city-interview/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=collidersocial (http://collider.com/cinematographer-dariusz-wolski-the-martian-alien-covenant-dark-city-interview/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=collidersocial)
It would be great if Covenant was shot on film. I didn't like the modern digital-ness of some of Prometheus.
I think the stock sci fi answer to relativity is, FTL drive bypasses the speed of light. Basically, the ship moves into an alternate dimension bypassing normal time and space using some sort of wormhole, spatial tunnel, or shadow dimension (hyperspace). The ship never even approaches the speed of light, but traverses great distances at what seems to be superluminal speeds without any of the messy side effects. I wouldn't think any of that would be a big problem in the Alien universe - All those ships seem to have easy, excellent artificial gravity, even the tiny little shuttlecraft. With that in mind, it surprises me their weapons and overall technology seem so primitive and pedestrian.
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Dec 31, 2015, 08:33:28 PMthat in mind, it surprises me their weapons and overall technology seem so primitive and pedestrian.
Most commercial and industrial hardware is built like that. It's not built to be sexy or appealing to a mass market. It's built to be functional. Compare the interiors of the International Space Station to the interiors of the Enterprise and the Nostromo. The Nostromo is a functional environment not made for it's good looks but how it operates.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Destiny_as_just_installed.jpg)
The international space station. Notice all the surface mounted equipment. You don't want extra penetrations in surfaces if you can avoid it aboard a spacecraft. (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reljatrajkovic.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Ffinal2.png&hash=36b16ac21771ae15858f4db18dd63341d3a1e2d8)
Enterprise Corridor. Wow! So clean and devoid of any equipment. This has to be good, Right? Wrong.(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fapplication.denofgeek.com%2Fimages%2Fm%2Fcorridors%2FAlien.jpg&hash=d582627a59a42790c07a82dfd9e9e3dfb3e3ef82)
Nostromo Corridor. It looks more like a submarine. But a spacecraft shares more with a submarine than you may realise. Think about it. I'd say with all of its exposed conduits and surface mounted equipment for ease of access, the Nostromo is more like the real deal than The Enterprise. Why conceal all the equipment behind wall paneling? In an emergency situation, you want fast access to that equipment. You don't want to pull off wall panels and look for it - you want immediate access to it.
So yes. It should look primitive and pedestrian when compared to sleek consumer goods that are made to look sexy because that's what sells mass market product. These vehicles aren't part of any consumer industry. Presuming, of course, that the crews of these vessels are trained professionals on board to perform specific tasks and not just tourists on a holiday cruise.
So I give the Nostromo a Pass; and The Enterprise a Fail in
attempting to portray a functional environment in space.
-Windebieste
Windebieste, you completely missed my point. War drives technological innovation. We have every reason to think humans continued to make war. These people have artificial gravity and FTL drive. They have robot surgery machines. So why are their soldiers armed with slug throwers, grenades, flame throwers and sometimes nukes? Their computers and screen displays look pitifully primitive, but they have AI smart enough to make androids that pass for human. It makes no sense. Why don't they have Predator stealth fields and plasma weapons? Intelligent targeting rail guns? Orbital mass drivers? Phasers? Photon torpedoes? force fields? You name it, they apparently don't have it. They don't even seem to have it 200 years later for Resurrection. They have more dolts with slug throwers. We know the Prometheus crew had those nifty mapping drones. Why were they not in evidence in Aliens? Would have simplified a lot of problems the marines encountered at Hadley's Hope.
I'm not talking about Alien. The freighter crew doesn't need anything fancy to haul freight, and one can simply say the Nostromo was old. It's like a steam engine or ocean vessel that soldiers on because it's cheap, reliable and profitable. But it's insufficiently maintained, so it has problems when taken off its normal track or sailed into a storm.
We know the real answer. The movies were made out of order and the ideas about that universe did not filter evenly or logically across the timeline. Cameron made specific decisions about what happened and why in Aliens. But all that leaves a sort of technological paradox. If you have the means to control gravity and the AI to make artificial brains, you have the means to do lots of other interesting things. And most of those interesting things are curiously missing from this vision of the future.
Same reason why we have such advanced smart phones and laptops and yet still burn fossil fuels for our cars.
Maybe the Alien universe humans developed slightly differently, perhaps these things you're pointing out aren't that easy to make or the universe isn't compatible with such things (such as photon torpedos) because it's a more "hard sci fi" setting.
But humans do show a sense of progress, the Rage War novel has a humanity that is so advanced that it'd almost make Star Trek blush.
Here are some examples of their weaponry and other technology (contains some minor spoilers).
Spoiler
Nano-Rifles that shoot a swarm of programmable nanobots which can be ordered to either slice an opponent apart, or encase them and explode in microscopic explosions (billions of them at once.)
Laser pistol that can blow apart a Predator's hand in two shots. (And that's just a sidearm)
Plasma hand grenades.
Cloaking technology, one is invisibility while other one makes the ship look like an asteroid to an outside observer. (Predators still use better stealth because each time humans reverse engineer their stuff, Yautja innovate further within a week.)
Compact Rifle that can be programmed to shoot nano swarms, lasers and micro-dot bullets which also explode, and that's basically a "full stop sized" bullet, billions of them.
Shoulder drones that the marines have on each shoulder, can be deployed to survey an area and feed back to the marine tactically. It also fights back by firing lasers so it's a combat drone as well.
The Marine combat suit is skin tight, no more uncomfortable heavy armour for your infantry, you now wear a suit that functions similarly to the Crysis Nanosuit, it protects you from Xenomorph blood (a marine is shielded from an exploding Xeno, completely drenched in acid and on the molecular level, the suit shed parts of itself while neutralizing the acid to save the marine, this protection only works to an extent.)
The suit also has an inbuilt computer that reacts specifically to your thoughts, so no control panel really needed. It has various vision modes, injects you with drugs to certain areas in case of injury, it boosts your strength to insane levels (a marine ripped the remains of his own arm off with ease after an injury) and keeps you alive and prevents shock for a considerable amount of time so you can stay combat ready. Also slightly shields you from really deadly radiation and also it's a space suit too.
It deflects Predator plasma caster and other forms of ranged attack by despite being a skin tight soft suit, it physically hardens at affected areas.
Humans also use "Drop Holes", huge anti-matter fuelled space structures that literally bend time and space to make FTL travel a bit easier, this is incredibly difficult to build as one in fifty of these fails to work and one in three explodes once activated. However, when successful, it allows instant travel from one area to the next (but it's a one way travel, so you'd have to find another Drop Hole that goes back, and they can't be built next to eachother) - also, these Drop Holes are code protected, so only humans can use them.
Our fastest ships can go fifteen times the speed of light without the use of Drop Holes. The Human Sphere of Influence is huge, it'd take you 200 years on a fast ship to fully circumnavigate.
Our space ship combat is advanced, we use particle weapons, lasers, and combat drones to snip enemy ships with various weaponry and "micro nukes" which are superbly effective even against alien ships. Also, when a human ship gets damaged, the crew is immediately doused in a hardening gel that protects them from the vacuum while the ship's hull immediately closes itself and then the gel proceeds to melt away.
Also for the very fast ships, a simple cryo-pod won't protect you from such a velocity, so there's this special kind of pod that encases you in a protective gel to keep you physically shielded from the speed of travelling fifteen times faster than light. This gel once exposed to oxygen immediately evaporates.
Also, ship computers can now be spoken to anywhere, you don't need a specific console to speak to such as with "MOTHER", in the book, "FRODO" can be spoken to anywhere and has a nice personality as well. Also, you can turn on artificial gravity on or off at will.
So year, by 2692, humans are superbly advanced, having colonized and built cities on many worlds, building huge space habitats as cities on their own.
Also holographic technology is very advanced, there are huge holo-rooms that a guy walks into which is of a beach, he can literally feel the sand on his feet, that's how good it's become. Also there are a lot of holographic screens on ships as well as a couple of monitors.
Also, some alien ships are discovered by some humans that literally grow themselves, humans then incorporate such tech.
This is what I like about the franchise, it shows a huge sense of progress. Sure, some things seem a bit retro futuristic, but that can be chalked up to Weyland-Yutani being cheap (Nostromo) or humans going through some economically hard times. Remember in Resurrection there was a plague that apparently ravaged humanity.
And I think Winde is right, emergency equipment does need to be available and visible at all times especially on a ship.
@Guan Thwei 1992:
If Star Wars taught us nothing else, It taught us this: If it didn't happen on screen, it didn't happen. Novels don't count.
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Jan 01, 2016, 03:43:12 PM
@Guan Thwei 1992:
If Star Wars taught us nothing else, It taught us this: If it didn't happen on screen, it didn't happen. Novels don't count.
This isn't Star Wars.
Quote from: tmjhur on Dec 31, 2015, 07:09:42 PM
It would be great if Covenant was shot on film. I didn't like the modern digital-ness of some of Prometheus.
I also prefer film myself. But Scott would probably have to ditch the 3D then. It will likely be a bit of a nightmare filming 3D with those bulky 65/70mm film cameras if it can even be done. Or otherwise post convert it into 3D which is not really ideal either. Not that I care for 3D myself but the studio might see things differently.
Quote from: Guan Thwei 1992 on Jan 01, 2016, 04:16:20 PM
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Jan 01, 2016, 03:43:12 PM
@Guan Thwei 1992:
If Star Wars taught us nothing else, It taught us this: If it didn't happen on screen, it didn't happen. Novels don't count.
This isn't Star Wars.
Doesn't matter. The lesson is universal. EU doesn't count. When film makers draw upon it, that's a bonus. But film makers are rarely bound by it. And rights holders can declare it null and void any time they like. Now, if Alien were based on a novel, like the tale of a certain annoying British wizard boy or a certain girl with a bow and arrow, the dynamics between book and movie might be a little different. But these Rage War novels don't matter a hill of beans to what we're ever going to see on the screen. Bitter pill, but that's the way it goes.
Quote from: windebieste on Dec 31, 2015, 02:19:10 AM
Nice. More importantly, though, no one in Hollywood gives a shit if you're math was right or not. Remember... the Narcissus took 57 years to 'float through the core systems' and you can bet Cameron wasn't too interested in whether the shuttle had FTL or not to tell his story. Presumably, it lacks that function.
After all, it took Voyager 36 years to enter interstellar space... it's a long haul between the Solar System's outer edge and the next stop without the luxury of FTL no matter how you add the figures up.
Either way, 'ALIEN' depicts a fair fictional representation of space travel. It is hard, awkward, uncomfortable, costly, dangerous and lonely. I think that's more important in terms of telling a story than getting the math right.
Unless it's non-fiction, accuracy be damned, I say. Never let the facts get in the way of telling a good story. ;)
-Windebieste.
Well said. Accuracy can get in the way of telling a good story.
Quote from: Mustangjeff on Dec 31, 2015, 01:49:14 AM
Time dilation affects those who are traveling at relativistic speeds. In fact traveling at 90% the speed of light only yields a ratio of 0.436 : 1
So for every year that passes to the stationary observer, the crew of the ship experiences about 159 days. Time is definitely slowed down, but not by that much. Things start getting interesting if you can approach 99.9% the speed of light.
If Covenant takes place 10 years after Prometheus, we are looking at a date of 2103?
Assuming (for fun) the ship was launched in 2030 with sub FTL, but could travel at 99.9% of the speed of light. The time dilation ratio is 0.045 to 1
1) The planet they land on is about 80LY from earth
2) 80yr x 365 days = 29,200 days as observed from earth
3) It would take 3.7 years accelerating at 1g to hit 99.9% the speed of light, and the same in amount of time to decelerate to a stop. The ship would travel 20.7LY during the acceleration, and 20.7LY during the deceleration. 38.6LY would be spent traveling at the .045 time dilation.
3) 38.6 years = 14,089 days x .045 = 634 days (or 1.7 yrs) pass to the people on the Covenant.
4) 3.7 + 1.7 +3.7 = 9.1 years pass to the crew members of the Covenant on flight of 80LY, traveling at 99.9% the speed of light, and accelerating/decelerating at 1g.
:) Watch my math be totally wrong
This kind of post treating science is often a pleasure to read. Clear and concise.
It shows the necessity of having cryosleep for such ships. It also indicates a trip from Earth to LV-426 wouldn't even reach the 99,9% of speed of light that it would start to decelerate.
Quote
Obviously "half a billion" rolls off the tongue better than 2.0574749335x10^14th
Yes... and that emphasis was made on her being far away from Earth. In Paradise's final script, it's writen "
half a billion sodding miles". It doesn't bother me from Vickers.
If Holloway and Shaw announced this figure during their pre-landing presentation in a serious manner, then that would be really disturbing.
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Jan 01, 2016, 05:07:24 PM
Quote from: Guan Thwei 1992 on Jan 01, 2016, 04:16:20 PM
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Jan 01, 2016, 03:43:12 PM
@Guan Thwei 1992:
If Star Wars taught us nothing else, It taught us this: If it didn't happen on screen, it didn't happen. Novels don't count.
This isn't Star Wars.
Doesn't matter. The lesson is universal. EU doesn't count. When film makers draw upon it, that's a bonus. But film makers are rarely bound by it. And rights holders can declare it null and void any time they like. Now, if Alien were based on a novel, like the tale of a certain annoying British wizard boy or a certain girl with a bow and arrow, the dynamics between book and movie might be a little different. But these Rage War novels don't matter a hill of beans to what we're ever going to see on the screen. Bitter pill, but that's the way it goes.
I thought I'd share some examples of advancement within the EU regardless as it showed some things I felt were close to what you were describing earlier that you wanted to see on film. :)
Whilst I see your point, I don't agree with this case. Fire and Stone was edited heavily so as to not conflict with whatever the plans were for Prometheus 2 at the time. Likewise Lebbon had to edit his completed manuscript for Predator Incursion following the Alien 5 announcement. For the time being anyway, Fox seem to be going to a concerted effort with this rebooted canon, and the new novels are a big part of that.
Having said all that, Ridley Scott has always been his own man and I wouldn't put it past him to disregard anything he doesn't like.
Quote from: Guan Thwei 1992 on Jan 01, 2016, 05:16:25 PM
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Jan 01, 2016, 05:07:24 PM
Quote from: Guan Thwei 1992 on Jan 01, 2016, 04:16:20 PM
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Jan 01, 2016, 03:43:12 PM
@Guan Thwei 1992:
If Star Wars taught us nothing else, It taught us this: If it didn't happen on screen, it didn't happen. Novels don't count.
This isn't Star Wars.
Doesn't matter. The lesson is universal. EU doesn't count. When film makers draw upon it, that's a bonus. But film makers are rarely bound by it. And rights holders can declare it null and void any time they like. Now, if Alien were based on a novel, like the tale of a certain annoying British wizard boy or a certain girl with a bow and arrow, the dynamics between book and movie might be a little different. But these Rage War novels don't matter a hill of beans to what we're ever going to see on the screen. Bitter pill, but that's the way it goes.
I thought I'd share some examples of advancement within the EU regardless as it showed some things I felt were close to what you were describing earlier that you wanted to see on film. :)
Yes, and that part is really cool! My bad for failing to mention it. :)
The costume d the engineer delivers for being intimidating.
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Jan 01, 2016, 06:32:19 PM
Quote from: Guan Thwei 1992 on Jan 01, 2016, 05:16:25 PM
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Jan 01, 2016, 05:07:24 PM
Quote from: Guan Thwei 1992 on Jan 01, 2016, 04:16:20 PM
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Jan 01, 2016, 03:43:12 PM
@Guan Thwei 1992:
If Star Wars taught us nothing else, It taught us this: If it didn't happen on screen, it didn't happen. Novels don't count.
This isn't Star Wars.
Doesn't matter. The lesson is universal. EU doesn't count. When film makers draw upon it, that's a bonus. But film makers are rarely bound by it. And rights holders can declare it null and void any time they like. Now, if Alien were based on a novel, like the tale of a certain annoying British wizard boy or a certain girl with a bow and arrow, the dynamics between book and movie might be a little different. But these Rage War novels don't matter a hill of beans to what we're ever going to see on the screen. Bitter pill, but that's the way it goes.
I thought I'd share some examples of advancement within the EU regardless as it showed some things I felt were close to what you were describing earlier that you wanted to see on film. :)
Yes, and that part is really cool! My bad for failing to mention it. :)
It's alright. ;D
I understand why you made your point though, you are correct, war does drive technological innovations, lots of things were discovered during our past major wars. The Cold War for instance landed a man on the moon due to the competition of world super powers.
So logically, the Marines should have some really powerful gear. I remember reading on the wiki (I know it's not reliable, but this was an interesting point) that the Marines are given outdated equipment by the United Americas, I'm not sure if that was mentioned in the Colonial Marines Technical Manual. But if this is true, it should be incorporated into any future films to explain why the Marines had what they had and other armies back home have better equipment to cut costs etc.
Quote from: tmjhur on Dec 30, 2015, 08:29:47 PM
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Dec 30, 2015, 07:48:51 PM
The Covenant might have left earth much longer than 10 years ago. The events of Prometheus wouldn't necessarily have had any influence on the colony ship's date of departure. Perhaps they stumbled upon the planet or David radioed them an invite when he saw they were in the vicinity.
Well it's probably just a Yutani ship init?
I really hope the Yutani and Weyland merger doesn't have anything to do with the Alien. Its just unnecessary and convenient to tie things together so much. I hate when they do crap like that in prequels.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Jan 01, 2016, 06:10:47 PM
Whilst I see your point, I don't agree with this case. Fire and Stone was edited heavily so as to not conflict with whatever the plans were for Prometheus 2 at the time. Likewise Lebbon had to edit his completed manuscript for Predator Incursion following the Alien 5 announcement. For the time being anyway, Fox seem to be going to a concerted effort with this rebooted canon, and the new novels are a big part of that.
Having said all that, Ridley Scott has always been his own man and I wouldn't put it past him to disregard anything he doesn't like.
I understand why you say what you are saying here, but I think you are reading too much into Fox's motives for making the writers of FIRE AND STONE stay away from any content that would conflict with the Prometheus sequel. It doesn't mean they want the F&S story to remain canonical, per se. It simply means that they don't want any aspects of the P2 script revealed in the comics, ahead of time. It also further reinforces them from legal and payroll disputes over the ideas presented, should different writers come up with the same ideas twice.
The fact that Fox made the writers of the comics change things, so as not to give away aspects of Prometheus 2, doesn't mean they did so so they can keep the EU canonical. I'm sure, in their minds that may be an added bonus, especially and only if fans respond well to the EU materials in question, but the de-facto reason is just a formality. They don't want things, they want the film to reveal, to be revealed before hand. Its really that simple and it is completely driven by the fact that the financial root is still, and is always, the films dictating what is canonical, without complicated cross pollination.
The exception here may be Alien Isolation, but I would almost guarantee that the exception proves the rule in this case, because I wouldn't put it passed FOX to consider adapting that game into a film someday, but only based on how well received it was. In contrast, I'm pretty certain we wont see or hear any mention of a Colonial Marines adaptation based on how poorly that game was received. Heh.
LSS The films are the raw material. Everything else, from the studio's perspective is cross-pollination and is, for better or worse, secondary.
Quote from: CainsSon on Jan 02, 2016, 05:28:53 AM
I understand why you say what you are saying here, but I think you are reading too much into Fox's motives for making the writers of FIRE AND STONE stay away from any content that would conflict with the Prometheus sequel. It doesn't mean they want the F&S story to remain canonical, per se. It simply means that they don't want any aspects of the P2 script revealed in the comics, ahead of time. It also further reinforces them from legal and payroll disputes over the ideas presented, should different writers come up with the same ideas twice.
The fact that Fox made the writers of the comics change things, so as not to give away aspects of Prometheus 2, doesn't mean they did so so they can keep the EU canonical. I'm sure, in their minds that may be an added bonus, especially and only if fans respond well to the EU materials in question, but the de-facto reason is just a formality. They don't want things, they want the film to reveal, to be revealed before hand. Its really that simple and it is completely driven by the fact that the financial root is still, and is always, the films dictating what is canonical, without complicated cross pollination.
The exception here may be Alien Isolation, but I would almost guarantee that the exception proves the rule in this case, because I wouldn't put it passed FOX to consider adapting that game into a film someday, but only based on how well received it was. In contrast, I'm pretty certain we wont see or hear any mention of a Colonial Marines adaptation based on how poorly that game was received. Heh.
LSS The films are the raw material. Everything else, from the studio's perspective is cross-pollination and is, for better or worse, secondary.
I think that may have been true, but that could easily have been stipulated when the comics were still in the initial writer's room phase. The fact that the entire first issue of the comic had to be scrapped after it had already been finished would suggest this was done to keep Fire and Stone canon, as well as elements of Prometheus 2 under wraps. The fact we now know Alien Covenant is set 10 years after Prometheus 2 probably explains why the timeframe of Prometheus Fire and Stone was suddenly put back 100 years. But the better evidence here is Lebbon's forced revision of Predator Incursion. That manuscript was already delivered to the publishers when he made those changes. We don't know what those changes were exactly other than it was something to do with Alien 5.
Normally I would agree with you, but reading the Weyland-Yutani Report has completely changed my thinking on the Alien universe. Such a large effort has been made to weave everything together in such a way that it all makes sense. It's the perfect sourcebook and why I believe strongly that this new canon is all that matters anymore and the likes of AVP, Requiem and the old EU are long gone. All I can do to stress this point is urge people to get their hands on a copy and read it. Of course the films are absolute at the end of the day and stories like Out of the Shadows will not have much bearing on things going forward, but it's nice to know they actually happened.
I wonder how the film will handle technology, the Alien films are far into the furture and the technology in promethues was far more advanced in some aspects. An exuse for that would be the fact that the ship was very expensives and owned by Weyland himself, but now we are getting a new ship. Im curious to see what it looks like and if it is similar to ships seen in the orginal films along with the tech used.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Jan 03, 2016, 02:38:19 PM
Such a large effort has been made to weave everything together in such a way that it all makes sense.
It certainly seems to be that Fox is trying to handle the new EU with more interest and care than they have done before.
So if it's set a decade later then are we ever going to find out on what happen at the end of the first movie. They did left the Planet with the Deacon being born at the end of the movie.
The technology will be a lot like we saw in Prometheus. One of the unique aspects to it, which I found intriguing, was the use of musical tones that issued commands. It conveyed a very light touch, and I imagine the engineers' home world as a place where a certain harmony exists, grown eerie and threatening by misuse. I hope they flesh out this side of the engineers, who on the one hand are portrayed as very destructive in their efforts to create ("Sometimes in order to create, we must first destroy."), they also should on the other hand appreciate their creations, knowing how fragile they are.
Quote from: Hellspawn28 on Jan 04, 2016, 08:48:47 PM
So if it's set a decade later then are we ever going to find out on what happen at the end of the first movie. They did left the Planet with the Deacon being born at the end of the movie.
That's another question, I think. On the face of it, it would look like Covenant is going to try and distance itself from Prometheus. How much that comes through in the narrative will be interesting to see.
I always hate if they are going to ignore on what happen last time if they are not going to ignore the last movie. The last movie open things up for more and it would piss me off if they are like "Yeah whatever. Let's not talk about it and move on!".
It's obviously not ignoring the movie - the main character is David. Just seems they've left LV223 and the Deacon behind. They went looking elsewhere.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 05, 2016, 09:58:48 PM
It's obviously not ignoring the movie - the main character is David. Just seems they've left LV223 and the Deacon behind. They went looking elsewhere.
So if they follow the Prometheus theme, that leaves them 3 whole movies to f**k things up and create a new horrifying monster on each world they visit. It'd be funny if the whole point of these movies is how mankind goes out into space and f**ks everything up, ensuring tons of sequels to come.
I know you're joking but I seriously hope they don't follow the "Prometheus theme". Come back to being a coherent film!
Quote from: Guan Thwei 1992 on Jan 01, 2016, 08:16:28 PM
So logically, the Marines should have some really powerful gear. I remember reading on the wiki (I know it's not reliable, but this was an interesting point) that the Marines are given outdated equipment by the United Americas, I'm not sure if that was mentioned in the Colonial Marines Technical Manual. But if this is true, it should be incorporated into any future films to explain why the Marines had what they had and other armies back home have better equipment to cut costs etc.
I like this idea! It's makes sense. It could even be a strategic decision. The marines are armed well enough to handle anything they would encounter during their normal operations without revealing the latest, greatest, or most destructive weapons.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 05, 2016, 09:58:48 PMJust seems they've left LV223 and the Deacon behind.
This kinda pisses me off. The "shock" Deacon ending in
Prometheus felt tacked-on as hell as it was. If they're now going to ditch it entirely, it'll feel even more pointless.
Isn't the whole film pointless anyway...
Well yes, that's why I have such a big problem with films that require sequels and don't really stand on their own as a self-contained movie. But that scene in particular felt like nothing more than knee-jerk at the fact nothing had burst out of anything yet.
What's with you? I thought you hated Prometheus' guts? Now you're all concerned about Shaw and the Deacon not returning.
I say start over with a clean slate, wipe the mess that is Prometheus under the carpet and pretend it never happened (mostly). Do a proper job this time around.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jan 06, 2016, 01:16:05 PMWhat's with you? I thought you hated Prometheus' guts? Now you're all concerned about Shaw and the Deacon not returning.
Hah! I don't hate its guts, it just annoys me because its a mess of a film, yet at every step they seemed to have a better movie that they then made worse by fiddling with it - from Spaihts' script to Lindelof's, then with several of the scenes they cut out for seemingly no good reason.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jan 06, 2016, 01:16:05 PMI say start over with a clean slate, wipe the mess that is Prometheus under the carpet and pretend it never happened (mostly). Do a proper job this time around.
Trouble with that is, David's back. So it can't possibly be a clean slate.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jan 06, 2016, 01:50:09 PM
Trouble with that is, David's back. So it can't possibly be a clean slate.
David was also the best thing about Prometheus and arguably the most intriguing android in any of the Alien films. The slate doesn't need to be perfectly clean, they just need to really downplay the first film to the extent that it makes absolutely zero difference whether you've seen Prometheus beforehand or not. It must be able to stand on it's own as a self-contained movie like you said.
If Scott really hits a home run with this film you wouldn't really want it to have a strong connection with an inferior prequel would you? Imagine if Alien followed after Alien: Resurrection but with so many narrative ties and plot points that you couldn't just ignore Resurrection in order to understand Alien. It would have tarnished Alien a bit don't you think?
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jan 06, 2016, 02:19:18 PMDavid was also the best thing about Prometheus and arguably the most intriguing android in any of the Alien films.
I completely agree, I loved Fassbender. I just wish he could've got a better film to play that part in.
I also agree with everything else you're saying, I'm just pointing out that with David in the new movie there's always going to be that niggling knowledge of where he came from. And that'll be worse if they're simply going to throw out everything else from
Prometheus, because it seems incredibly petulant to simply discard a story that isn't finished because you did such a half-arsed job of it... yet at the same time make a sequel with a returning character.
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Jan 06, 2016, 10:52:21 AM
Quote from: Guan Thwei 1992 on Jan 01, 2016, 08:16:28 PM
So logically, the Marines should have some really powerful gear. I remember reading on the wiki (I know it's not reliable, but this was an interesting point) that the Marines are given outdated equipment by the United Americas, I'm not sure if that was mentioned in the Colonial Marines Technical Manual. But if this is true, it should be incorporated into any future films to explain why the Marines had what they had and other armies back home have better equipment to cut costs etc.
I like this idea! It's makes sense. It could even be a strategic decision. The marines are armed well enough to handle anything they would encounter during their normal operations without revealing the latest, greatest, or most destructive weapons.
That's also a good point. I think mainly when they go for pests, they bring out some of the more obsolete stuff but in war, they may be given better things.
I'd love to see a film of Marines facing some human colonial insurgency somewhere who has found some "bio weapons" (Aliens) and is experimenting on people, then the Marines arrive and have to face not only Aliens but also well armed rebels. It'd be nice to see some vehicles like futuristic tanks and even some mechs.
Come on guys you can't honestly have wanted Spaihts draft more? True it would have been a coherent movie but at the same time if would have made for an awful alien movie. I think if that movie was made it would have done serious damage to the franchise compared to Prometheus. People would have said the Alien is dead... from just how many "super" aliens were killed in the most mundane ways.
Also, Prometheus is fine the way it is. Scott and Co are just dropping the charred and admitting that this is an Alien series with the name change. I can already see him saying, you know, what ever happened to that thing that was born out of the engineer from the end of Prometheus. Why hasn't no one told his story yet. :P The movie was too big for two hours and got the f**k out of control. However it set up the game pieces just fine. The engineers, the science, the death and tragedy.
The way I see it, the alien is Prometheus. It hands over an egg to the engineers as depicted in the mural. They're first true piece of ultra advance modern biotechnology, that they then went all Weyland-Yutani over and created bioweapons galore. The engineers are basically the corporations scientist, bioweapons division.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jan 06, 2016, 08:48:16 PMCome on guys you can't honestly have wanted Spaihts draft more?
Absolutely. It at least made sense and had characters that weren't total morons.
Lindelof calls Milburn a total moron in the commentary lol
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jan 06, 2016, 09:00:16 PM
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jan 06, 2016, 08:48:16 PMCome on guys you can't honestly have wanted Spaihts draft more?
Absolutely. It at least made sense and had characters that weren't total morons.
Indeed. It wasn't perfect but it was certainly stronger than Prometheus.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 07, 2016, 08:32:33 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jan 06, 2016, 09:00:16 PM
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jan 06, 2016, 08:48:16 PMCome on guys you can't honestly have wanted Spaihts draft more?
Absolutely. It at least made sense and had characters that weren't total morons.
Indeed. It wasn't perfect but it was certainly stronger than Prometheus.
Yea but it was a xeno smorgasbord. Aliens born and slaughtered inside of minutes but hapless humans. How could that possibly advance the franchise? It's been a while since I read though it but I can't see how the fail is any less than Prometheus.
You guys just wanna see those ultramorphs don't yea. >:(
As I said, it wasn't perfect and we've said a few times it needed a good polish. It would have been awesome to see the Ultramorph but my preference of it comes from the fact that it's simply a more coherent script and the characters are better written.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jan 07, 2016, 08:50:18 AMYea but it was a xeno smorgasbord. Aliens born and slaughtered inside of minutes but hapless humans. How could that possibly advance the franchise? It's been a while since I read though it but I can't see how the fail is any less than Prometheus.
Every time anyone says they preferred Spaihts script the instant retort is "but the Aliens were too weak!", when we've said
literally every time that the script needed tidying up to address that.
But even in it's unpolished state, it's still leagues better than the mess that we got.
Oh, thought you guys actually meant that you would rather have the Spaihts script as is over Prometheus... wait a minute, by that logic Prometheus script could have been fixed too. So yea it is either or in this hypothetical choice. Lets just say Spaihts script was filmed as is. Would that still be better than Prometheus? Yea I know you guys love that Spaihts script more. So this is a rhetorical question.
Yea not arguing over which script was better as a movie but even tweaking Spaihts script doesn't make it all that more appealing.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jan 07, 2016, 09:27:46 AMOh, thought you guys actually meant that you would rather have the Spaihts script as is over Prometheus...
I would. Even as it is it's better.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jan 07, 2016, 09:27:46 AMwait a minute, by that logic Prometheus script could have been fixed too.
But it wasn't.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jan 07, 2016, 09:30:46 AM
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jan 07, 2016, 09:27:46 AMOh, thought you guys actually meant that you would rather have the Spaihts script as is over Prometheus...
I would. Even as it is it's better.
Indeed. Even with its weaknesses, Alien: Engineers is still better than Prometheus. All Prometheus' strengths were visual and they'd come across easily enough. Only difference between the 2 that Prometheus has over Engineers is David - and I wonder how much of that was purely Fassbender? I can't remember what Lindelof really did to the character.
No doubt Fassbender had a lot to do with it, but the characterization on script was just as interesting as it was portrayed. David's lines, idiosyncrasies and subtleties were made possible thanks to Lindelof's re-write of the character, in the Spaihts script he's just Ash 2.0. It took someone of Fassbender's calibre to bring such a nuanced character to life and I think Lindy deserves credit for it.
david8, stop being a guest. I want be able to look at your previous posts, sign up ! ;)
Yeah a bit too busy atm, I'm on my lonesome on some f**ked up planet ;)
Covenant will feature retired senior engineers? and with all the technological advances... leather sandals?
That's actually an image of the costume designer from the set of Prometheus.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 07, 2016, 09:35:30 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jan 07, 2016, 09:30:46 AM
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jan 07, 2016, 09:27:46 AMOh, thought you guys actually meant that you would rather have the Spaihts script as is over Prometheus...
I would. Even as it is it's better.
Indeed. Even with its weaknesses, Alien: Engineers is still better than Prometheus. All Prometheus' strengths were visual and they'd come across easily enough. Only difference between the 2 that Prometheus has over Engineers is David - and I wonder how much of that was purely Fassbender? I can't remember what Lindelof really did to the character.
I don't agree that either script was better. As much as I think Lindeloff was right in changing the style of the film away from the traditional Alien stuff and I liked the changes to David's character, I felt the Engineers only worked in the opening scene and that was true of both drafts. Their tech was out-of-universe. It doesn't match the world of Alien. The one thing that did work with their tech though, WAS in Spaihts draft. I hated the reason Weyland wanted to be there (eternal life) in Lindelof's draft, and thought the terraforming tech was a better idea... I also agree with the exclusion of LV426 but think the entire second half of Lindeloff's script was a giant mess. Lindelof was right with thinking I did not just want to see aliens killing people but he was wrong in thinking the Engineers were driving the second half of the script. He woke it up and didn't know what to do with it. There was no sense of wonder because the Engineer did nothing of interest. Also of note is that in the Spaihts draft the characters were even more cookie-cutter. But overall I liked his sense of reasoning better. In Lindelof's draft the motivations of characters drive the plot up until Weyland and the Engineer are woken up and then they dropped the ball miserably.
In Spaihts draft the motivations of the characters is ruined by making David so villainous.
I can't come down on one side of the fence because the best draft was somewhere in between. Lindeloff got rid of too much and changed things that worked but he also got rid of a lot of the right things and changed NOTABLY the characters, for the better. Also both scripts got things wrong and didn't follow through on the Engineer stuff correctly. I think Spaihts version made the Engineers feel even more tacked on. Neither script integrated the Engineers well and that is the biggest thing Prometheus gets wrong. I wasn't interested in the middle section of either script and the ending of both sucked. The ending just sucked all around, I think.
Overall, I think the problem is simple and present with both versions: There are too many ideas without enough connective tissue. The entire thing needed to be simplified. I think Lindelof simplified some things rightly, and then introduced more things incorrectly.
Quote from: CainsSon on Jan 12, 2016, 06:44:19 PM
I hated the reason Weyland wanted to be there (eternal life) in Lindelof's draft, and thought the terraforming tech was a better idea...
I liked that it was better reasoned in Engineers but I wouldn't have minded it Prometheus had it actually been setup. Like with Spaiht's having the upgrading humanity evidence.
QuoteI can't come down on one side of the fence because the best draft was somewhere in between.
...
Overall, I think the problem is simple and present with both versions: There are too many ideas without enough connective tissue.
That's fair enough and I can really see where you're coming from. I do agree that both versions had some aspects right and others wrong. I just think that Engineer's would have required less work to make it more solid.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 12, 2016, 07:18:59 PM
Quote from: CainsSon on Jan 12, 2016, 06:44:19 PM
I hated the reason Weyland wanted to be there (eternal life) in Lindelof's draft, and thought the terraforming tech was a better idea...
I liked that it was better reasoned in Engineers but I wouldn't have minded it Prometheus had it actually been setup. Like with Spaiht's having the upgrading humanity evidence.
QuoteI can't come down on one side of the fence because the best draft was somewhere in between.
...
Overall, I think the problem is simple and present with both versions: There are too many ideas without enough connective tissue.
That's fair enough and I can really see where you're coming from. I do agree that both versions had some aspects right and others wrong. I just think that Engineer's would have required less work to make it more solid.
I can agree with that. In fact, I think if Lindeloff had only made a few of the changes that he did, namely, having made David less villainous and developing the characters (maybe even a bit more), and limiting a great deal of the facehuggers and been-there-done-that stuff, while keeping the ponderous stuff more in the subtext... I think, basically he made the changes he needed to and then didn't know where to stop. I think having the Engineer DO something strange after he had been woken up, strange the way the opening was strange, I think that was key to making that last act feel in step with the rest of it, and neither of them figured that out. Instead, it was just - SURPRISE! He wants to kill us!! Only, that was as predictable as a chestburster scene getting tacked onto the end.
And what's really most head scratching about PROMETHEUS that the entire first 2/3 of the film seems so filled with strange, interesting, head scratching ideas to make us want more, as the intensity ramps up, and then the entire last quarter of the film, is predicable run of the mill crap.
I hope this film opens with someone saying "This will begin to make things right."
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Jan 01, 2016, 03:43:12 PM
@Guan Thwei 1992:
If Star Wars taught us nothing else, It taught us this: If it didn't happen on screen, it didn't happen. Novels don't count.
My sentiments exactly.
Even then, that might not be the case after Alien 3.2.
Personally I've come to the conclusion that canon just doesn't matter. It's what they say it is and it can change at a whim. Just enjoy what you enjoy.
Engineers was basically the same story, only it had actual Aliens in it. That's why I would've preferred it. All Prometheus did was replace them with bad coffee.
Quote from: Kelgaard on Jan 18, 2016, 04:25:33 PM
All Prometheus did was replace them with bad coffee.
Sadly, the coffee was the only thing good on the ship.