(https://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/awkward9.gif)
So is the City Hunter Predator from
PREDATOR 2 "bad blood"?
First, for all those who do not know, what is "bad blood"?
- Bad Blood is the phrase used for any Yautja that has turned against its own kind and severely violated aspects of the Yautja Honor Code - intentional or not. (Xenopedia - Thank you Cruentus/HuDaFuk)
* I feel compelled to note that Predators violating aspects of the Yautja code is turning on its own kind, and therefore synonymous, all fitting under the phrase "Bad Blood".Now with that said, presuming what the Yautja honor code entails, the City Hunter Predator
did indeed follow code during different parts of the film by:
Not killing the young child at the graveyard with the toy gun.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lsDci3A76N0/maxresdefault.jpg)
And not killing Leona Cantrell because she was pregnant:(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ParallelSecondhandIvorybilledwoodpecker-size_restricted.gif)
Yes, this is what we'd come to expect from a city hunting Predator following the Yautja honor code. Until we get to its sadistic nature.
For those who are unfamiliar with the term "sadistic", here is its definition:
sa·dis·tic
/səˈdistik/ adjective
deriving pleasure from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others.
"she took a sadistic pleasure in tormenting him"
(google)
This torment, this deriving pleasure from inflicting pain, suffering or humiliation doesn't seem aligned with the nature of the Yautja honor code. Would a Predator slay someone's entire group of friends or family just so this someone is forced to watch?
Because that's exactly what the sadistic City Hunter Predator did to Mike Harrigan. Instead of killing its prey when it had the chance, the City Hunter watched Mike and seemingly aimed to kill all the important people he came in contact with. King Willy. Jerry. Mike's best friend Danny. That sadistic killer from outer space even went so far as to mentally f*ck and torture this cop by hanging Danny's necklace at the cemetery for him to find. What Yautja honor code is this?
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(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scifimoviezone.com%2Fimageavp%2Fpredator2031.jpg&hash=acad745de7f7fb7600aefded534813ff19ce3f61)
Did the Predator get off on this? How far would it have taken it? The Predator's people-tied-to-Mike sadistic killing spree stopped, when it discovered Leona was pregnant. If it wasn't for that, Leona would have been the City Hunter's next victim, viciously torturing Mike that much more.
Is this cruelty a method to bring out the best sport from a prey? Maybe, but I see no levels of honor in this mental torture.
Or did the other Predators that made an appearance at the end of the movie realize the "bad blood" City Hunter was getting out of hand?
Armed or not, the slaying of subway commuters seemed more mass murder than trophy seeking. Could the other Predators have arrived from a different ship, and boarded the City Hunter's ship just in time to see Mike kill the City Hunter? And if the City Hunter was indeed "bad blood", was that flintlock tossed to Mike more than a sign of respect, but also a thank you?
Maybe... just maybe.
(https://i.imgur.com/boyRiZp.gif)
ADDENDUM: February 16th, 2019:
It appears I found a
smoking gun to confirm that the City Hunter was
not following by all the Yautja Honor Code rules, a.k.a. "Bad Blood". And who would know more than Kevin Peter Hall himself, the actor portraying the Predator in "Predator 2"?
Per the bonus material on the "Predator 2" Special Edition DVD:
- KEVIN: "He's off on a wild trip. This one is not doing what normal Predators do, you know, which is hunt and go by the rules. He's definitely breaking all the rules. So he's a wild boy."
In an earlier draft of the "Predator 2" script, the City Hunter was still breathing after his last fight with Harrigan, only for the Grayback Elder Predator to behead the City Hunter with a flash of a knife. Even though the reasoning for the beheading was left unambiguous in the script and originally could be perceived as punishment for losing a fight with Harrigan, it is now
also reasonable to conclude (after hearing Kevin's own words) that the Predator was originally intended to be punished for his dishonorable behavior.
Original "Predator 2" Storyboards:(https://i.ibb.co/09RrNGQ/P2scan0001.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZBjj9T7/P2scan0002.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/L1SpXP3/P2scan0003.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/GQZYwz1/P2scan0004.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/9NYw0G5/P2scan0005.jpg)
*
Note: It's important to remember a Predator does not need to ignore all the laws of their code to qualify as dishonorable, or "bad blood". It only needs to ignore one of them, when applying logical thinking. One does not have to break every law to be a criminal. One does not have to break every commandment to be a sinner. One does not have to break every rule your parents inforced to get punished. Etc.
ADDENDUM: February 26th, 2019:
Supplementals, some inspired by conversations with this great community.Honor in handling the deadThere is a case to be made that the body of the City Hunter Predator was dragged out dishonorably.
One could suggest
four Predators were needed to honorably carry the body of the City Hunter. By just using two, one Predator was forced to grab the City Hunter by the crook of its knee, while the other leg of the City Hunter was left dangling, made seemingly obvious by the accompanied sound effect of it dragging across the ship floor. This method certainly doesn't feel very respectful.
(https://i.ibb.co/FnmGrhN/IMG-20190224-071743.jpg)
Compare that to the apparent honorable treatment Scar's body received in the 2004 film "Alien vs Predator", where four Predators carried Scar's dead body out on a stretcher.
(https://i.ibb.co/xfc4s0q/IMG-20190226-092546.jpg)
Including AVP as canon or not, it's just an example that carried by four is seemingly (to human eyes) more respectful than two, in just the way they can handle the load.
The City Hunter is the first Predator to hunt in a high population centerIn unused dialogue from the second draft of the "Predator 2" script, Agent Peter Keyes alleges that in 700 years of unverified accounts of Predator visits on Earth, the City Hunter was the
first Predator to hunt in a high population area.
(https://i.ibb.co/L18y2wV/IMG-20190226-093127.jpg)
Could this practice of hunting in a high populated area be dishonorable and against Yautja code? Quite possible. Or is it just too dangerous? Either way, if Keyes is correct, hunting in the city is
not at all normal Predator behavior.
Is being reckless dishonorable?The City Hunter Predator is obviously young and reckless. Even John & Jim Thomas, the writers of both "Predator" and "Predator 2", have declared it as such in various publications.
(https://i.ibb.co/YpSVSj4/IMG-20190226-093513.jpg)
So what does reckless mean?
reck·less
/ˈrekləs/adjective
marked by lack of proper caution : careless of consequences.
Irresponsible.
(Merriam-Webster)
So being reckless is indeed
bad behavior. But the question becomes, does not-caring-of-consequences or being irresponsible ever equate to dishonorable behavior to Predators (aka the fan favorite phrase "Bad Blood")?
Does recklessness get a pass when you're young, but if you're a seasoned adult Predator, it's unacceptable? Could be. Or is it, no matter what the age, even though recklessness is bad behavior, it will never equate to dishonorable behavior? Could also be. Or is there ever a point of too much? Quite possible.
No matter where one may stand on the issue, the common ground is dishonorable or not, "bad blood" or not, most of us can agree that the City Hunter Predator in "Predator 2" was at least practicing some bad behavior.
fini
No he is not.
Ha. Well then. Case closed. ;D
TBH, I don't really think reading the first two films with these concepts in mind (Bad Blood, Honor) etc really works, he's just havin' him some fun- even the old woman was fair game because she was a potential danger, any excuse he'll take it. The child was simply no threat to the Predator, no fun, same goes for the baby.
Boy I have an itch to play CJ now and decapitate some fools, new Predator game pls.
So being a sadist to Mike Harrigan is just havin' him some fun-? Remind me to bring a bodyguard if you ever host an AvPG party, Old One. ;) ;D
Jungle Hunter did kill the entirety of Dutch's crew, but they were all fair game and it took place in a severely remote location where he could gain an easy upper hand.
Perhaps City Hunter thought Harrigan was the ultimate human trophy. King Willie was dispatched too easily. Jerry . . . well, he probably didn't appeal all that much to City Hunter either which means he's got bad taste. He watched Harrigan work and tested him and gauged him to be the biggest prize.
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Feb 12, 2019, 06:57:09 PM
Jungle Hunter did kill the entirety of Dutch's crew, but they were all fair game and it took place in a severely remote location where he could gain an easy upper hand.
And it was slim pickings for human prey in the jungle. And I don't think the Jungle Hunter was saving Dutch for last at all, based on the net trapping scene. The JH was just plain hunting.
QuotePerhaps City Hunter thought Harrigan was the ultimate human trophy. King Willie was dispatched too easily. Jerry . . . well, he probably didn't appeal all that much to City Hunter either which means he's got bad taste. He watched Harrigan work and tested him and gauged him to be the biggest prize.
Oh yeah, the City Hunter certainly felt like Harrigan was the biggest prize. But then why waste time on the little prizes, the little boars, when the big boar, the big prize is right infront of you. This hunter is killing the little boars to affect the big boar. To anger him. To enrage him. To hurt him. Again, the Predator is following Harrigan to kill his friends? What code is that? And then hanging the necklace at the cemetery where Mike was mourning Danny? That's f*cked up!
Very interesting thoughts anyway. However i don't think that intention of director and screenwriters was to portay City Hunter as betrayer of his own kind rules but as predator with his own personality and ways to running the hunt.
I did remember reading an interview ages ago of the Thomas broters or Hopkins saying that this Pred was younger and liked to take more risks, that is why he was hunting in the city.
They should get the Thomas Brothers to write a Predator 3 before they kick the bucket.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 12, 2019, 07:09:51 PM
Oh yeah, the City Hunter certainly felt like Harrigan was the biggest prize. But then why waste time on the little prizes, the little boars, when the big boar, the big prize is right infront of you. This hunter is killing the little boars to affect the big boar. To anger him. To enrage him. To hurt him. Again, the Predator is following Harrigan to kill his friends? What code is that? And then hanging the necklace at the cemetery where Mike was mourning Danny? That's f*cked up!
He was working his way up to the prize buck. If you go after the big one first, then nothing else on your hunting trip will match expectations. If you lead up to it then you'll always have something bigger to aim for.
Quote from: Kradan on Feb 12, 2019, 07:10:59 PM
Very interesting thoughts anyway. However i don't think that intention of director and screenwriters was to portay City Hunter as betrayer of his own kind rules but as predator with his own personality and ways to running the hunt.
It's hard to tell. It is left unambiguous I believe, as it should.
In an early draft of the "Predator 2" script, the City Hunter was still breathing after his last fight with Harrigan, only for the Grayback Elder Predator to
behead the City Hunter with a flash of a knife. It didn't read to me that the Elder Predator was very happy with the CH.
Interesting topic indeed... I think overall it reflected more of City Hunter's personality, showing that he was more encline to attract attention and be reckless. Maybe like a younger person would indeed.
Thanks brother John. You may be right, the City Hunter might be young and reckless.
Yet, I still have trouble watching the City Hunter pick off who's seemingly close to Mike including Danny boy with his gun originally holstered, just to f*ck Mike up...and reconciling those actions with ...the Yautja honor code. Geez, what would the City Hunter do if he followed Mike home to a family? Kids would likely be safe,, but..
Just following Mike to the cemetery to hang Danny's necklace as Mike is mourning, just to watch him go ballistic....
.... I can't imagine the Elder Grayback Predator approving of that.
You're imagining Elder Greyback has a human's concept of morality though
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 12, 2019, 10:51:40 PM
You're imagining Elder Greyback has a human's concept of morality though
A fair point to make, but in regards to hunting, doesn't the Yautja morality match humans or come very close? Don't hunt the young. Don't hunt the pregnant. Trophy collecting is okay. Camouflage is okay. Advanced weaponry is okay. Bait trickery like duck calls or deer urine is okay. All acceptable during the hunt.
Fair digs, BTW do you agree with me regarding Predator 3?
Sorry, I meant to reply to that and forgot. I absolutely adore the idea of the Thomas brothers coming back to write "Predator 3"! Adore it!
Do you know how old they are though? I recall that their internet bios were always pretty thin.
No idea tbh.
Predators are always shown as sadistic. The first could've just killed Dutch at the end, but wanted to beat the living shit out of him with his bare hands. "Fair fight" my ass, he knew Dutch couldn't hurt him. The Elder Predator killing CH was because CH failed in his hunt, much the same way as them trying to blow themselves up when they lose.
All that being said, Kevin Peter Hall literally calls him a "bad blood" in a promo interview for the movie :D
I don't think he meant he was going against the Predator hunting code or whatever, just that he's a much more vicious, in-your-face killer. He's not the patient stalker from the first movie.
More bad hunter than bad blood.
Weren't they both "pussy predators" according to PWSJ?
Haha, indeed. ;D @SM
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 12, 2019, 11:46:50 PM
No idea tbh.
Unfortunately, based on the lackluster performance of "The Predator", I highly doubt Disney/Fox will execute on any immediate plans for another feature, in time to take advantage of the talents of the Thomas brothers, if it's not too late already. :-\
Quote from: SiL on Feb 12, 2019, 11:54:20 PM
Predators are always shown as sadistic. The first could've just killed Dutch at the end, but wanted to beat the living shit out of him with his bare hands. "Fair fight" my ass, he knew Dutch couldn't hurt him.
Fair fight or not, I don't believe the Elder would cry foul with a chance for the human prey to defeat the Predator at its own combat (fisticuffs) just as it doesn't cry foul for using advanced weaponry or camouflage. That's not a fair fight either. Their logic must be the context, not ours.
QuoteThe Elder Predator killing CH was because CH failed in his hunt, much the same way as them trying to blow themselves up when they lose.
Yes, I considered that interpretation, but all that is an alternate interpretation and neither interpretation is conclusive in the draft either way.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 12, 2019, 09:24:11 PM
In an early draft of the "Predator 2" script, the City Hunter was still breathing after his last fight with Harrigan, only for the Grayback Elder Predator to behead the City Hunter with a flash of a knife. It didn't read to me that the Elder Predator was very happy with the CH.
It also ends like that on the novelization, Pussyface let the Elder do it, he accepts it. The novel has a lot of parts from Pussyface's POV, he thought that by killing Harrigan's team mates it would make him want to seek revenge, thus becoming a greater challenge on their fight, he didn't seem to be enjoying the "psychological torture" on Mike, it was just a means to an end. When I first watched the movie I thought it was mostly coincidental, but on the novel it goes on detail on how much Pussyface is stalking Harrigan, he only attacked the metro because he saw Mike's team mates going there.
Pussyface got interested(maybe a little obsessed) on Harrigan from the moment he almost got spotted on the rooftop, saying he was a superior human like Dutch, he wanted to keep the best one for last.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 13, 2019, 02:08:21 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 12, 2019, 09:24:11 PM
In an early draft of the "Predator 2" script, the City Hunter was still breathing after his last fight with Harrigan, only for the Grayback Elder Predator to behead the City Hunter with a flash of a knife. It didn't read to me that the Elder Predator was very happy with the CH.
It also ends like that on the novelization, Pussyface let the Elder do it, he accepts it.
In the older script draft too. He seemed to accept his fate. Why he was accepting that fate, was unclear.
QuoteThe novel has a lot of parts from Pussyface's POV, he thought that by killing Harrigan's team mates it would make him want to seek revenge, thus becoming a greater challenge on their fight, he didn't seem to be enjoying the "psychological torture" on Mike, it was just a means to an end.
Interesting! As many here know, I personally only accept the films as canon, not film novelizations or any other EU, but it would be interesting to read the author's interpretations and the fleshing out choices!
QuoteWhen I first watched the movie I thought it was mostly coincidental, but on the novel it goes on detail on how much Pussyface is stalking Harrigan, he only attacked the metro because he saw Mike's team mates going there.
I actually got the stalking right away. Plus Leona called it out after the CH took out King Willy.
QuotePussyface got interested(maybe a little obsessed) on Harrigan from the moment he almost got spotted on the rooftop, saying he was a superior human like Dutch, he wanted to keep the best one for last.
Was Danny's necklace in the novelization? Probably not right? Not if the Elder killed the City Hunter in the book like the old draft. In the old draft, Harrigan found King Willy's dreads in the cemetery - not a necklace.
The code of honor thing is one of the things I truly hate about the EU. It just doesn't work retroactively to Predator and P2. To me, they'll always just be sadistic hunters in it for the thrill of the hunt/satisfaction of the kill.
The Thomas Brothers also said they were trying to show CH taunting Harrigan and egging him on for a final match.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 02:39:08 AM
Was Danny's necklace in the novelization? Probably not right? Not if the Elder killed the City Hunter in the book like the old draft. In the old draft, Harrigan found King Willy's dreads in the cemetery - not a necklace.
If I remember correctly it was a medallion, not a necklace.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 08:48:56 AM
The code of honor thing is one of the things I truly hate about the EU. It just doesn't work retroactively to Predator and P2. To me, they'll always just be sadistic hunters in it for the thrill of the hunt/satisfaction of the kill.
Yeah, they have rules; not honour.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 08:48:56 AM
The code of honor thing is one of the things I truly hate about the EU. It just doesn't work retroactively to Predator and P2. To me, they'll always just be sadistic hunters in it for the thrill of the hunt/satisfaction of the kill.
But the thrill of the hunt/satisfaction of the kill isn't sadistic, not by definition.
Also, you don't need the EU to establish a moral code You already see a moral code established in P1 & P2. Refusing to hunt the armed. Refusing to hunt the pregnant. Letting Mike live. This is all a clear indication of a moral code, and anything but characteristics of sadistic.
I would consider getting a thrill out of hunting or killing folk as "deriving pleasure from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others."
It's indication of rules, not necessarily a moral code. There's no thrill in hunting or killing prey who can't fight back. Of course, when the prey proves itself like Dutch... But then there's the cloaking device and the advanced weaponry. There is absolutely no honour in that.
Letting Harrigan go is a bit of outlier, granted, but it's one authoritative individual giving kudos to someone who bested one of his kind.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 02:39:08 AM
Was Danny's necklace in the novelization? Probably not right? Not if the Elder killed the City Hunter in the book like the old draft. In the old draft, Harrigan found King Willy's dreads in the cemetery - not a necklace.
It was Danny's medallion on the cemetery, apart from extra dialogue, Predator POV and the ending, everything else is the same on the novel.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 11:54:52 AM
It's indication of rules, not necessarily a moral code. There's no thrill in hunting or killing prey who can't fight back. Of course, when the prey proves itself like Dutch... But then there's the cloaking device and the advanced weaponry. There is absolutely no honour in that.
Letting Harrigan go is a bit of outlier, granted, but it's one authoritative individual giving kudos to someone who bested one of his kind.
Dutch is right in his assessment why it doesn't kill the unarmed -- no
sport, not no honour. They want a challenge.
The first Predator was absolutely sadistic in not just killing Dutch outright and instead beating him half to death.
I put the Elder doing what he did simply because the hunt was over; specifically, CH's hunt was over. Harrigan was his target and he didn't get him, nobody had any right taking the kill from him.
Giving the trophy didn't seem like a matter of course -- he turns, thinks, and then gives him a prize. I don't think they're used to prey walking into their home and gutting their buddies. It's like, "Yay you? Here's a prize, I guess? I don't know, f**k off, we're done here."
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 11:54:52 AM
I would consider getting a thrill out of hunting or killing folk as "deriving pleasure from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others."
It's indication of rules, not necessarily a moral code. There's no thrill in hunting or killing prey who can't fight back. Of course, when the prey proves itself like Dutch... But then there's the cloaking device and the advanced weaponry. There is absolutely no honour in that.
Letting Harrigan go is a bit of outlier, granted, but it's one authoritative individual giving kudos to someone who bested one of his kind.
Hicks I think you're bringing in your feelings and a much larger debate about hunting, which I applaud you for. But this needs to be seen through a prism of a society that allows sports hunting, not through the prism of you or I agree disagreeing with it. (for the record I am not an advocate for sports hunting).
Here on Earth there are many sports hunters that are God-fearing people, have families, teach their children from right and wrong , take care of farms, animals like horses and dogs and other pets and are not seen as sadistic people. Sadistic is reserved to sick individuals like serial killers and such. And these hunters who wear camouflage with high-powered rifles and wear deer urine perched in a tree, with all the advantage in the world, can
and do consider themselves moral and honorable people.
Applying Yautja to that social construct x 2, they are not sadistic at all. They're just not.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 13, 2019, 12:47:46 PM
Dutch is right in his assessment why it doesn't kill the unarmed -- no sport, not no honour. They want a challenge.
The first Predator was absolutely sadistic in not just killing Dutch outright and instead beating him half to death.
I put the Elder doing what he did simply because the hunt was over; specifically, CH's hunt was over. Harrigan was his target and he didn't get him, nobody had any right taking the kill from him.
Giving the trophy didn't seem like a matter of course -- he turns, thinks, and then gives him a prize. I don't think they're used to prey walking into their home and gutting their buddies. It's like, "Yay you? Here's a prize, I guess? I don't know, f**k off, we're done here."
And that's the neat thing when it's left unambiguous. We can all come away with a different take on it.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 01:23:03 PM
Hicks I think you're bringing in your feelings and a much larger debate about hunting, which I applaud you for. But this needs to be seen through a prism of a society that allows sports hunting, not through the prism of you or I agree disagreeing with it. (for the record I am not an advocate for sports hunting).
Here on Earth there are many sports hunters that are God-fearing people, have families, teach their children from right and wrong , take care of farms, animals like horses and dogs and other pets and are not seen as sadistic people. Sadistic is reserved to sick individuals like serial killers and such. And these hunters who wear camouflage with high-powered rifles and wear deer urine perched in a tree, with all the advantage in the world, can and do consider themselves moral and honorable people.
Applying Yautja to that social construct x 2, they are not sadistic at all. They're just not.
I wasn't actually considering any sort of human based sports hunting or looking at it through any social prism. And to be honest, that's not something I'm knowledgeable about. But there's a difference between hunting people and hunting animals. Granted, different species and all that but my point remains. They're taking pleasure (especially City Hunter) in inflicting pain in other sentient beings.
They are sadistic. They're dishonourable. Seriously, where is the honour in hiding behind a cloaking device or using massively advanced weaponry. There isn't any. The Predators are intergalactic big game hunters who enjoy hunting and killing. Sometimes that might mean throwing those advantages away so they can get even bigger kicks out of a fight but that's still sadism imho. And that's the way I like my Predators. Not being Perry's Yautja.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 01:44:51 PM
But there's a difference between hunting people and hunting animals
To us, not to Yautja I suspect.
QuoteGranted, different species and all that but my point remains. They're taking pleasure (especially City Hunter) in inflicting pain in other sentient beings.
If they were truly taking pleasure in inflicting pain, they would draw all their kills out. Tie them up. Cut them. Burn them. Make incisions. Sever limbs than cauterize. You get what I'm saying. ;D
QuoteThey are sadistic. They're dishonourable. Seriously, where is the honour in hiding behind a cloaking device or using massively advanced weaponry.
Again, where is the honor in humans wearing camouflage, perched in trees using high powered scope rifles to take out an unsuspecting deer? Yet those humans (most) still have moral and honorable codes.
QuoteThere isn't any. The Predators are intergalactic big game hunters who enjoy hunting and killing. Sometimes that might mean throwing those advantages away so they can get even bigger kicks out of a fight but that's still sadism imho. And that's the way I like my Predators. Not being Perry's Yautja.
I like my Predators medium-rare, with a side of roasted potatoes. ;D
In all seriousness, I can get that. Cheers!
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 02:23:49 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 01:44:51 PM
But there's a difference between hunting people and hunting animals
To us, not to Yautja I suspect.
Greyback was willing to acknowledge Harrigan's success. I can't say I see anyone throwing a tiger a pistol or anything.
QuoteIf they were truly taking pleasure in inflicting pain, they would draw all their kills out. Tie them up. Cut them. Burn them. Make incisions. Sever limbs than cauterize. You get what I'm saying. ;D
Sadistic doesn't immediately equate to torturer. We've seen quick kills, we've seen drawn out conflicts, we've seen tormenting. A kill is a kill. We've seen different levels of satisfaction around different kills. They don't take a trophy from everyone. It doesn't mean they don't enjoy each kill.
QuoteAgain, where is the honor in humans wearing camouflage, perched in trees using high powered scope rifles to take out an unsuspecting deer? Yet those humans (most) still have moral and honorable codes.
Granted, I'm not versed in the sports hunting community but do they actually make a big deal about how honourable they are? That's not something that I can say is something that is equated to sports hunters as people tie to the Yautja.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 02:23:49 PMI like my Predators medium-rare, with a side of roasted potatoes. ;D
I don't imagine that to be very juicy.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 02:33:49 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 02:23:49 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 01:44:51 PM
But there's a difference between hunting people and hunting animals
To us, not to Yautja I suspect.
Greyback was willing to acknowledge Harrigan's success. I can't say I see anyone throwing a tiger a pistol or anything.
Ahem.
(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/e6/c1/a6/e6c1a63447b94296d3bbda76730dc3fc.jpg)
;D
QuoteQuoteIf they were truly taking pleasure in inflicting pain, they would draw all their kills out. Tie them up. Cut them. Burn them. Make incisions. Sever limbs than cauterize. You get what I'm saying. ;D
Sadistic doesn't immediately equate to torturer. We've seen quick kills, we've seen drawn out conflicts, we've seen tormenting. A kill is a kill. We've seen different levels of satisfaction around different kills. They don't take a trophy from everyone. It doesn't mean they don't enjoy each kill.
I was responding to you saying Predators taking pleasure in inflicting pain (not kills) and challenging that. If Predators did take pleasure from inflicting pain, they would most likely act differently during the hunt. Stab or shoot to maime, not to kill. Like -
just shooting from the hip here- blow Blaine's leg completely off, and listen to Blaine scream in pain as Mac tries to stop him from bleeding to death, and just revel in the screams.
Of course the Predator takes pleasure in the kill. Every sports hunter does. They're just not sadistic to inflict the most slow, long-lasting painful and agonizing death possible.
QuoteQuoteAgain, where is the honor in humans wearing camouflage, perched in trees using high powered scope rifles to take out an unsuspecting deer? Yet those humans (most) still have moral and honorable codes.
Granted, I'm not versed in the sports hunting community but do they actually make a big deal about how honourable they are? That's not something that I can say is something that is equated to sports hunters as people tie to the Yautja.
Yeah, the parent will teach their child to respect nature and respect their prey. If it's not a killshot, don't let the creature bleed out in pain. Kill it immediately. Never shoot a pregnant animal or a youngling. You see that fish, it's too young, throw it back. And so on. There's honor to them. They even see mounting the animal's head on your wall as preserving the animal's legacy.
There's a lot of websites you can find all about being honorable hunters. I don't want to link to any, because I prefer not to promote it, but they're easy to find.
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Feb 13, 2019, 02:55:04 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 02:23:49 PMI like my Predators medium-rare, with a side of roasted potatoes. ;D
I don't imagine that to be very juicy.
Well certainly not as juicy as rabbit! ;D
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 03:26:29 PM
was responding to you saying Predators taking pleasure in inflicting pain (not kills) and challenging that. If Predators did take pleasure from inflicting pain, they would most likely act differently during the hunt. Stab or shoot to maime, not to kill. Like -just shooting from the hip here- blow Blaine's leg completely off, and listen to Blaine scream in pain as Mac tries to stop him from bleeding to death, and just revel in the screams.
Of course the Predator takes pleasure in the kill. Every sports hunter does. They're just not sadistic to inflict the most slow, long-lasting painful and agonizing death possible.
It's not an all or nothing to the kill. Some kills/hunts are drawn out, some are not. Regardless, they're not exactly painless either. Not all kills have to be some drawn out or agonizing to be sadistic. Granted, it maybe getting into the realms of what we consider personally sadistic but CH is very much intended to be your "classic" representation of that.
QuoteYeah, the parent will teach their child to respect nature and respect their prey. If it's not a killshot, don't let the creature bleed out in pain. Kill it immediately. Never shoot a pregnant animal or a youngling. You see that fish, it's too young, throw it back. And so on. There's honor to them. They even see mounting the animal's head on your wall as preserving the animal's legacy.
I just don't see that as honourable. That's just strikes me as being smart in ensuring their prey actually sticks around. If you go around killing all the young or the pregnant, the species dies out. I don't know - maybe I'm just wrapped up in this concept of honour as a fair fight or being "right."
That just doesn't equate to the Predators in the first films for me.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 04:28:15 PM
That's just strikes me as being smart in ensuring their prey actually sticks around. If you go around killing all the young or the pregnant, the species dies out.
Its not like Pussyface could accidentally endangers the whole species during anything he did on his hunt. Leona would have died by the self-destruct anyway, he didn't seen to mind on that case as well as all the other innocents. Well in the novel personally killing a her was prohibited by the "ethics of the hunt".
Honor, morality and personality are all completely different things.
City Hunter has marked Harrigan as being the best/smartest game around, I figure the cemetary scene was the CH trying to get into Mikes head. Predators probably have a basic understanding of how human beings work, so psychologically attacking your enemy/game is probably a legitimate tactic for them.
It could have also been the City Hunter showing Harrigan he was gunning for him and his "clan". He could have wanted Mike on his A game so he could get the most challenge out of him that he possibly could have.
Would skinning a man alive count as sadistic?
Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 07:30:49 PM
Would skinning a man alive count as sadistic?
To us it is, but to a Predator who views us the same way a hunter would view a bear it probably isn't.
Wait a minute, how do we really know anyone was skinned alive?
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Feb 13, 2019, 07:35:54 PM
Wait a minute, how do we really know anyone was skinned alive?
Spoiler
Saying skinned dead doesn't have the same impact.
Well we know that Pussyface killed the criminals before skinning them.
It would, but I never bought they were skinned alive. Or somehow Dutch glancing at their hanging, skinned, disemboweled bodies, that he can somehow tell what they died of. Calling Doctor Dutch! ;D
"Skinned Alive!" It's just a commonly used english trope, used when arguing with Dillon.
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Feb 13, 2019, 07:35:54 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 07:30:49 PM
Would skinning a man alive count as sadistic?
To us it is, but to a Predator who views us the same way a hunter would view a bear it probably isn't.
Wait a minute, how do we really know anyone was skinned alive?
I know right? Let alone multiple people, four I believe. Skinned alive. While all wearing gear. Clothing. They were all captured, without injury, then de-armed, de-geared, de-clothed, and then de-skinned while flailing around.
Or perhaps they were just skinned dead like King Willie's posse in "Predator 2"
Sorry for interfering you guys, but it seems for me that here is argument for the sake of argument. There's a lot of facts (no, i'm not gonna name them all) proving that Predators are honorable and a lot of facts proving that they are dishonorable. But what matters is "what you choose to believe" ( this is quote from Prometheus, isn't it? Don't remember actually)
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Feb 13, 2019, 07:35:54 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 07:30:49 PM
Would skinning a man alive count as sadistic?
To us it is, but to a Predator who views us the same way a hunter would view a bear it probably isn't.
Wait a minute, how do we really know anyone was skinned alive?
Ray in AvP-R.
Do game hunters normally skin their targets alive? Sounds pretty sadistic.
That's just downright rude.
Quote from: Kradan on Feb 13, 2019, 08:56:55 PM
Sorry for interfering you guys, but it seems for me that here is argument for the sake of argument. There's a lot of facts (no, i'm not gonna name them all) proving that Predators are honorable and a lot of facts proving that they are dishonorable.
There's nothing really saying they're "Honourable", but a lot saying they have guidelines when hunting.
If we can't apply human standards to whether they're honourable or sadistic the argument becomes entirely moot. They're human concepts to begin with.
I really feel like this discussion is going out of its way to try to make everything more ambiguous than it really is.
Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 09:13:41 PM
Ray in AvP-R.
Do game hunters normally skin their targets alive? Sounds pretty sadistic.
Ray was clearly dead after being stabbed, though.
Poor Ray.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 13, 2019, 09:50:18 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Feb 13, 2019, 08:56:55 PM
Sorry for interfering you guys, but it seems for me that here is argument for the sake of argument. There's a lot of facts (no, i'm not gonna name them all) proving that Predators are honorable and a lot of facts proving that they are dishonorable.
There's nothing really saying they're "Honourable", but a lot saying they have guidelines when hunting.
If we can't apply human standards to whether they're honourable or sadistic the argument becomes entirely moot. They're human concepts to begin with.
I really feel like this discussion is going out of its way to try to make everything more ambiguous than it really is.
Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 09:13:41 PM
Ray in AvP-R.
Do game hunters normally skin their targets alive? Sounds pretty sadistic.
Ray was clearly dead after being stabbed, though.
I'm just going by the dialogue. Morales tells Dallas he was skinned alive after talking to the doctor so it sounds like an informed opinion. Moreso than Dutch saying Hopper was skinned alive to Dillon.
And yeah these conversations always go the same way.
'Predators have honour'
'But x, y and z aren't very honourable'
'Not by humans standards'
' ??? '
That pic up there, is Ray dead. "Skinned alive" is just a trope.
Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 09:13:41 PM
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Feb 13, 2019, 07:35:54 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 07:30:49 PM
Would skinning a man alive count as sadistic?
To us it is, but to a Predator who views us the same way a hunter would view a bear it probably isn't.
Wait a minute, how do we really know anyone was skinned alive?
Ray in AvP-R.
Do game hunters normally skin their targets alive? Sounds pretty sadistic.
Not to my knowledge, and I don't think it's possible either. The whole idea behind skinning something is keeping its pelt/skin intact for future use/taxidermy, so if't struggling and fighting you while you do it it would defeat the whole purpose.
Not to mention the fact that you could also get killed by the thing you're trying to skin if it isn't already dead.
Indeed.
It's fair to drawl parallels with Yautja sport hunting morality and human sport hunting morality because they more often than not, mirror each other. Don't hunt the young. Don't hunt the pregnant. Trophy collecting is okay. Having a great advantage is okay. Camouflage is okay. Advanced weaponry is okay. Bait trickery like duck calls or deer urine is okay. Etc.
Yeah, they have hunting guidelines. That's not really to do with morality though, even in humans.
I'm also still not seeing what CH does that's remarkably different to the original other than being much more in your face.
Yeah. Predators shoot you from long range with lasers while they're invisible, and you never know what hit you. Or that you were even being hunted.
I don't think a bit of trolling with a necklace qualifies them as a bad blood.
Quote from: SM on Feb 14, 2019, 02:14:01 AM
I don't think a bit trolling with a necklace qualifies them as a bad blood.
That's some high tier of trolling. What an absolute savage Pussyface was. Goddamn Predator troll.
There was a short sequence in the original that was cut of the Jungle Hunter intentionally missing Dutch as he slid down the hill, playing with him.
Scarface is still the alpha predator troll. He could shitpost with that vocal mimicry.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 14, 2019, 02:52:56 AM
Scarface is still the alpha predator troll. He could shitpost with that vocal mimicry.
60 Seconds BTW
Quote from: SiL on Feb 14, 2019, 01:58:30 AM
Yeah, they have hunting guidelines. That's not really to do with morality though, even in humans.
I actually believe morality applies here:
- morality
/məˈralədē/ noun
principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
synonyms: ethics, rights and wrongs, correctness, ethicality More
a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.
So it's the 'morality' of hunting -- but I'm still not getting where CH acts immorally.
Yeah...
Well, there's the "let's torture Mike by killing all of his acquaintances" part, which looks pretty convincing from the opening post.
However, there are other possible explanations to this behavior than simple sadism. The City Hunter could try to make the prey more dangerous or more clumsy through rage and grief, for example.
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 14, 2019, 08:17:31 AM
Well, there's the "let's torture Mike by killing all of his acquaintances" part, which looks pretty convincing from the opening post.
All of his acquaintances were fair game. It's not like he went after non-targets to f**k with Harrigan.
EDIT
And for what it's worth "taunt your prey" 100% falls under their hunting rules.
Knocking off Harrigan's mates sounds a lot like knocking off Dutch's squad.
Nah, not bad blood material.
He just did those things to make Harrigan angry and lelesleless tactful in his approach of confront City Hunter. A bad blood would have not spared the targets that he did. He did this got get inside of Harrigan's ooda loop. For those not familiar with this concept, military and law enforcement use it. This short video will explain.
https://youtu.be/ji6z-0H2FG0 (https://youtu.be/ji6z-0H2FG0)
So while City Hunter did play mind games, that's part of what makes him extremely intelligent. His Meta game is on point because he thinks several steps ahead. But his hubris was his biggest downfall. Never underestimate dangerous, armed prey. Alas, you know the rest.
Quote from: SM on Feb 14, 2019, 09:21:58 AM
Knocking off Harrigan's mates sounds a lot like knocking off Dutch's squad.
Those situations are different.
It was slim pickings for human prey in the jungle. And the Jungle Hunter was not saving Dutch for last, based on the net trap scene. The Jungle Hunter was just plain hunting.
The City Hunter was following Harrigan through the city but not hunting him. Not killing him. The City Hunter followed Harrigan to seek out the people close to him and kill them, and leave Mike alive to suffer through it.
It all hinges on do you believe the Elder Predator would approve following someone, and slaying said someone's entire group of friends or family systematically just so said someone is forced to watch. It all hinges on would the Elder Predator approve the following of a prey to his place of mourning, not to hunt him, but just to mentally torture him.
Why not?
Again, taunting prey is a 100% valid play. All of Harrigan's associates were fair game bar Leona, whom he spared. He didn't unnecessarily draw out kills, as you said. He just wanted to f**k with the one he considered the buck of the group.
Why would there be a problem? And what in the film indicates the reaction to his fate is anything other than "You lost your hunt, and that means death. Stiff shit."
And because you feel this behavior is valid play, it directs your opinion. Fair enough.
You've not really made an argument for why it's not valid based on everything else we've seen.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 13, 2019, 12:47:46 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 11:54:52 AM
It's indication of rules, not necessarily a moral code. There's no thrill in hunting or killing prey who can't fight back. Of course, when the prey proves itself like Dutch... But then there's the cloaking device and the advanced weaponry. There is absolutely no honour in that.
Letting Harrigan go is a bit of outlier, granted, but it's one authoritative individual giving kudos to someone who bested one of his kind.
Dutch is right in his assessment why it doesn't kill the unarmed -- no sport, not no honour. They want a challenge.
The first Predator was absolutely sadistic in not just killing Dutch outright and instead beating him half to death.
I put the Elder doing what he did simply because the hunt was over; specifically, CH's hunt was over. Harrigan was his target and he didn't get him, nobody had any right taking the kill from him.
Giving the trophy didn't seem like a matter of course -- he turns, thinks, and then gives him a prize. I don't think they're used to prey walking into their home and gutting their buddies. It's like, "Yay you? Here's a prize, I guess? I don't know, f**k off, we're done here."
Maybe an exception for leona then ? She was pregnant but armed and seemingly able to fight, she was still on duty after all. So maybe this particular case could be seen as "dishonorable". If it isn't a case of morality there...
Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 09:13:41 PM
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Feb 13, 2019, 07:35:54 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 07:30:49 PM
Would skinning a man alive count as sadistic?
To us it is, but to a Predator who views us the same way a hunter would view a bear it probably isn't.
Wait a minute, how do we really know anyone was skinned alive?
Ray in AvP-R.
Do game hunters normally skin their targets alive? Sounds pretty sadistic.
It's just a stupid reference to the first movie for the sake of it, that's all, not meant to be taken literally.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 14, 2019, 01:11:03 PM
You've not really made an argument for why it's not valid based on everything else we've seen.
Since it's quite effortless to align both human and Yautja hunting morality, using that as context, I find it hard to justify that sadistic behavior.
And I will counter that you haven't really made an argument why a Predator going to a human's place of mourning to mentally f*ck with him, then leave,
does align with that hunting morality based on what we've seen.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 14, 2019, 11:57:17 AM
The City Hunter was following Harrigan through the city but not hunting him. Not killing him. The City Hunter followed Harrigan to seek out the people close to him and kill them, and leave Mike alive to suffer through it.
Well the Colombians and Jamaicans that he was killing beforehand weren't Mike's buddies, CH was just hunting them because they were dangerous.
I think CH basically was tracking Mike because he saw him as the most dangerous and therefore the most rewarding hunt. He concentrated on studying Mike but also continued his own hunt. This meant that he happened to hunt people close to Mike, simply because they were worthy of hunting and they were near him at the time
because he was hunting Mike.
I think predators as a species like to hunt by psychologically screwing with their prey, by using the vocal mimicry (as JH did) or other means. CH saw an opportunity to do this with Danny's necklace. I don't see it as being particularly bad blooded, just part of standard hunting practice.
Quote from: Stitch on Feb 14, 2019, 02:07:58 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 14, 2019, 11:57:17 AM
The City Hunter was following Harrigan through the city but not hunting him. Not killing him. The City Hunter followed Harrigan to seek out the people close to him and kill them, and leave Mike alive to suffer through it.
Well the Colombians and Jamaicans that he was killing beforehand weren't Mike's buddies, CH was just hunting them because they were dangerous.
Agreed. Normal hunting practices at this point.
QuoteI think CH basically was tracking Mike because he saw him as the most dangerous and therefore the most rewarding hunt. He concentrated on studying Mike but also continued his own hunt. This meant that he happened to hunt people close to Mike, simply because they were worthy of hunting and they were near him at the time because he was hunting Mike.
I have to disagree there, due to the fact that he brought Danny's necklace for Mike to find at the cemetary. That suggests more than happenstance, more than a coincidence of just hunting who's nearby at the time.
QuoteI think predators as a species like to hunt by psychologically screwing with their prey, by using the vocal mimicry (as JH did) or other means. CH saw an opportunity to do this with Danny's necklace. I don't see it as being particularly bad blooded, just part of standard hunting practice.
Fair enough. But I equate the vocal mimicry
not to screwing with their prey, but as a hunting tool, equating to a waterfowler hunter that uses a little wooden duck call to lure real ducks into the open so they can shoot them. (It sounds like a real duck!) These are all just tools of a sport hunter. ;)
Regardless if the City Hunter is killed by the Elder because he lost to his prey, will die slowly from his injuries anyway, is bad blood, or for some unknown reason not theorized yet... these
PREDATOR 2 STORYBOARDS (shared on Predatorium back in the day) feature the Elder Grayback Predator slitting the City Hunter's throat
and are pretty cool:(https://i.ibb.co/09RrNGQ/P2scan0001.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZBjj9T7/P2scan0002.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/L1SpXP3/P2scan0003.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/GQZYwz1/P2scan0004.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/9NYw0G5/P2scan0005.jpg)
It seems like it all hinges on redefining 'bad blood' so it includes messing with your prey.
Quote from: SM on Feb 14, 2019, 08:42:12 PM
It seems like it all hinges on redefining 'bad blood' so it includes messing with your prey.
See, that's the thing, when our definition of "Bad Blood" includes "
severely violating aspects of the Yautja Honor Code - intentional or not", until we get our hands on an Official Yautja Honor Code book, there is no "redefining" as you say, because it's never been defined. All we can do is extrapolate based on the information we have been given.
And because it's smartly left ambiguous (some didn't even want to show the Predator ship), all we can do is recognize the glaring hunting parallels in our society, apply logic, work within the actions and rules established in the films, see if there are any characters contradicting some of said actions, and see if anyone is acting out of character.
And when doing so, it can be fun as a fan. Live and let live brother. ;)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 14, 2019, 01:25:45 PM
Since it's quite effortless to align both human and Yautja hunting morality, using that as context, I find it hard to justify that sadistic behavior.
A human hunting tactic is to injure one to lure out others. f**king with others to get to the prey you want is absolutely a thing hunters do.
QuoteAnd I will counter that you haven't really made an argument why a Predator going to a human's place of mourning to mentally f*ck with him, then leave, does align with that hunting morality based on what we've seen.
You're the one making the argument that it doesn't, the burden of proof is on you.
Part of your argument is the end of the film with how the other Predators react, but your argument there is "It's ambiguous!" when you haven't shown why it can't be perfectly explained by what we know. It's like you're starting with the idea he's a bad blood and working backwards to justify it.
If their actions can be explained by what we know then it's illogical to call it ambiguous.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 14, 2019, 09:42:37 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 14, 2019, 01:25:45 PM
Since it's quite effortless to align both human and Yautja hunting morality, using that as context, I find it hard to justify that sadistic behavior.
A human hunting tactic is to injure one to lure out others. f**king with others to get to the prey you want is absolutely a thing hunters do.
What? :laugh: You're watching to many movies my friend. That's not sports hunting. I'd expect something like that from a hunter
not caring to kill younglings or the pregnant.
QuoteQuoteAnd I will counter that you haven't really made an argument why a Predator going to a human's place of mourning to mentally f*ck with him, then leave, does align with that hunting morality based on what we've seen.
You're the one making the argument that it doesn't, the burden of proof is on you.
I did make my arguement. Countered many points from the "skinned alive" team. It's okay if we disagree.
QuotePart of your argument is the end of the film with how the other Predators react, but your argument there is "It's ambiguous!" when you haven't shown why it can't be perfectly explained by what we know. It's like you're starting with the idea he's a bad blood and working backwards to justify it.
I literally have no idea what you said there.
Warm hugs to ya.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 14, 2019, 09:15:43 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 14, 2019, 08:42:12 PM
It seems like it all hinges on redefining 'bad blood' so it includes messing with your prey.
See, that's the thing, when our definition of "Bad Blood" includes "severely violating aspects of the Yautja Honor Code - intentional or not", until we get our hands on an Official Yautja Honor Code book, there is no "redefining" as you say, because it's never been defined. All we can do is extrapolate based on the information we have been given.
And because it's smartly left ambiguous (some didn't even want to show the Predator ship), all we can do is recognize the glaring hunting parallels in our society, apply logic, work within the actions and rules established in the films, see if there are any characters contradicting some of said actions, and see if anyone is acting out of character.
And when doing so, it can be fun as a fan. Live and let live brother. ;)
Bad bloods ignore the rules - not killing armed opponents for example. As far as we can see this Predator follows the rules. The original Predator messes with Dutch by not simply shooting his head off; same kind of deal with Harrigan. Are they both bad bloods?
QuoteIt's like you're starting with the idea he's a bad blood and working backwards to justify it.
Precisement.
^ That, basically.
You have to show that what he does in the cemetery is against the rules.
My last paragraph was written in very plain English and addresses the use of the reaction to CH's fate in the ship as an argument that he was a Bad Blood.
In the final scene on the ship they seem to be forming a kind of funeral procession.
I'm sure if the Predator had killed Harrigan he would've been lauded for defeating a foe that had cost him his hand.
Quote from: SM on Feb 14, 2019, 10:19:02 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 14, 2019, 09:15:43 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 14, 2019, 08:42:12 PM
It seems like it all hinges on redefining 'bad blood' so it includes messing with your prey.
See, that's the thing, when our definition of "Bad Blood" includes "severely violating aspects of the Yautja Honor Code - intentional or not", until we get our hands on an Official Yautja Honor Code book, there is no "redefining" as you say, because it's never been defined. All we can do is extrapolate based on the information we have been given.
And because it's smartly left ambiguous (some didn't even want to show the Predator ship), all we can do is recognize the glaring hunting parallels in our society, apply logic, work within the actions and rules established in the films, see if there are any characters contradicting some of said actions, and see if anyone is acting out of character.
And when doing so, it can be fun as a fan. Live and let live brother. ;)
Bad bloods ignore the rules - not killing armed opponents for example. As far as we can see this Predator follows the rules.
I can't say that to be a "Bad Blood" you have to ignore a sweeping
all the rules, but if the City Hunter was a BB, yep, he definitely followed some ethics. I mentioned that in the original post. But to me he also did things later against that line of ethics, also mentioned in the original post. :)
The City Hunter seemed like he was being a normal honorable Yautja hunter shooting up drug gangs, until Harrigan arrived. Then (to me) something seemed to change. Maybe he saw Harrigan as a competitive hunter encroaching his game. Ooooo, now THAT'S an interesting theory!!!
If he followed "some ethics" then how is he a bad blood? Surely a bad blood would've killed Leona and the old lady in her apartment.
Quote from: SM on Feb 14, 2019, 10:44:53 PM
If he followed "some ethics" then how is he a bad blood? Surely a bad blood would've killed Leona and the old lady in her apartment.
Exactly. Why follow some rules and not others? If anything, it implies that screwing with your prey is totally allowed within the rules of the hunt (whatever they may be), because CH did it, but didn't kill Leona or candy kid.
Quote from: Stitch on Feb 14, 2019, 10:58:22 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 14, 2019, 10:44:53 PM
If he followed "some ethics" then how is he a bad blood? Surely a bad blood would've killed Leona and the old lady in her apartment.
Exactly. Why follow some rules and not others? If anything, it implies that screwing with your prey is totally allowed within the rules of the hunt (whatever they may be), because CH did it, but didn't kill Leona or candy kid.
I believe you both are misinterpreting what "bad blood" means. It's a label for a Yautja that was found to have brought dishonor to its people.
Since the phrase was created in the EU, just look to the EU for its open-ended meaning. For example, the Predator Two-Stripes became "bad blood" for taking credit for another Predator's kill.
It's not all or nothing here guys.
I'm not seeing how he's brought dishonour to anyone - except maybe for getting beaten.
That's cool. This thread was not a declaration. It just poses the question.
Quote from: SM on Feb 14, 2019, 11:15:38 PM
I'm not seeing how he's brought dishonour to anyone - except maybe for getting beaten.
Honor Code:
1.) Hunting Worthy Game: When hunting, the hunter must be sure that his prey is considered game, and lawful to kill. Sometimes the hunter will equal the odds (not using a Plasmacaster or some similar ranged weapon). Worthy game must fill the following criteria: Can defend itself and/or is able to kill the hunter himself, of age (killing children and the elderly is considered the height of bad manners), not linked to other lives (so that removing the prey will not doom another, e.g. pregnant women), and not weakened by diseases.
2.) Failing in the Hunt: Should the hunter fail in one's quest he usually takes his own life, preferring to die in honor than to live in shame. However, some cowards prefer to live in obscurity rather than die. This is considered to be dishonorable and suicide is then "assisted" by an Arbitrator.wo-Stripes was a young blood predator that during a hunt in a hunting planet, he stole the kill of a fellow of his clan, Light-Stepper, and he tried take credit for it. Nevertheless, he was busted when his fellows find to Light-Stepper, revealing his actions to the clan leader Top-Knot, bringing as result that he was expelled from the clan, stripped from his gear and abandoned in the hunting planet, to the mercy of the aliens.
3.) Claiming the Kill of Another Hunter: To take the Trophy of another Yautja, living or dead, is considered to be a great insult. For example, two Un-Blooded go on their first Hunt: one Yautja takes on a Black Death and both are mortally wounded. While the wounded hunter is dying, the other hunter conveniently finishes off the prey and claims the kill as his own, abandoning the wounded Yautja. This is a crime paid for with abandonment by the clan, mutineering the hunter on that world with no equipment whatsoever, this includes the loss of both weapons and armor.
4.) Murder of Another Yautja: To kill another Yautja intentionally. This excludes self-defense and killing a foe in a wrestling match to settle a dispute (see below). Murder is the worst crime.
5.) Never harm the innocent: Those who have done no harm should have no harm done to them. (It can be inferred that this rule must pertain only to harming other Yautja in their society, since they hunt and kill members of many species one could call "innocent". It can also be inferred that Bad Blood Predators would ignore this rule either in part or in whole).
6.) Hunting for Food: When hunting for food, take only the weak. This is to purify the species' line.
7.) Wounded Game: When coming upon game wounded by another hunter, and the prey is dying without sport, show honor to another's kill. If the game still shows sport, it is to be a joint trophy.
8.) Joining Another Hunt: Do not join another's Hunt, or Hunt in their territory, without their permission. All trophies taken in this manner are stolen trophies, and shall be dealt with by the rightful owner.
9.) Mercy: Those who defeat you in a fair Hunt, or who are the victors in a life-threatening hunt (such as a battle with the Xenomorph Queen), and show you mercy are to be considered our equals. You must either kill both them and yourself, or bestow them with a reward.
10.) Code Violations: Those who break the code are renegades, and no longer considered to be a Yautja. They are to be destroyed when encountered.
11.)Never Harm the Ill or Offspring: Yautja are known to have a very strict law on the killing of those pregnant with infants and those who are sick. Usually when they hunt and encounter both, the Yautja is to let them live. The only exception to the rule is if any ill prey pose a threat.
12.) When in a duel with an enemy, you must reveal yourself: it is "hunting ethic" to reveal yourself to your enemy at the climax of a fight.
Citation(s):
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Bad_Blood_(Yautja)
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Yautja_Honor_Code
^^^
Aw man, I love reading this stuff! This is when the EU and subsequently Xenopedia is at it's best!
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 14, 2019, 11:34:30 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 14, 2019, 11:15:38 PM
I'm not seeing how he's brought dishonour to anyone - except maybe for getting beaten.
Honor Code:
1.) Hunting Worthy Game: When hunting, the hunter must be sure that his prey is considered game, and lawful to kill. Sometimes the hunter will equal the odds (not using a Plasmacaster or some similar ranged weapon). Worthy game must fill the following criteria: Can defend itself and/or is able to kill the hunter himself, of age (killing children and the elderly is considered the height of bad manners), not linked to other lives (so that removing the prey will not doom another, e.g. pregnant women), and not weakened by diseases.
2.) Failing in the Hunt: Should the hunter fail in one's quest he usually takes his own life, preferring to die in honor than to live in shame. However, some cowards prefer to live in obscurity rather than die. This is considered to be dishonorable and suicide is then "assisted" by an Arbitrator.wo-Stripes was a young blood predator that during a hunt in a hunting planet, he stole the kill of a fellow of his clan, Light-Stepper, and he tried take credit for it. Nevertheless, he was busted when his fellows find to Light-Stepper, revealing his actions to the clan leader Top-Knot, bringing as result that he was expelled from the clan, stripped from his gear and abandoned in the hunting planet, to the mercy of the aliens.
3.) Claiming the Kill of Another Hunter: To take the Trophy of another Yautja, living or dead, is considered to be a great insult. For example, two Un-Blooded go on their first Hunt: one Yautja takes on a Black Death and both are mortally wounded. While the wounded hunter is dying, the other hunter conveniently finishes off the prey and claims the kill as his own, abandoning the wounded Yautja. This is a crime paid for with abandonment by the clan, mutineering the hunter on that world with no equipment whatsoever, this includes the loss of both weapons and armor.
4.) Murder of Another Yautja: To kill another Yautja intentionally. This excludes self-defense and killing a foe in a wrestling match to settle a dispute (see below). Murder is the worst crime.
5.) Never harm the innocent: Those who have done no harm should have no harm done to them. (It can be inferred that this rule must pertain only to harming other Yautja in their society, since they hunt and kill members of many species one could call "innocent". It can also be inferred that Bad Blood Predators would ignore this rule either in part or in whole).
6.) Hunting for Food: When hunting for food, take only the weak. This is to purify the species' line.
7.) Wounded Game: When coming upon game wounded by another hunter, and the prey is dying without sport, show honor to another's kill. If the game still shows sport, it is to be a joint trophy.
8.) Joining Another Hunt: Do not join another's Hunt, or Hunt in their territory, without their permission. All trophies taken in this manner are stolen trophies, and shall be dealt with by the rightful owner.
9.) Mercy: Those who defeat you in a fair Hunt, or who are the victors in a life-threatening hunt (such as a battle with the Xenomorph Queen), and show you mercy are to be considered our equals. You must either kill both them and yourself, or bestow them with a reward.
10.) Code Violations: Those who break the code are renegades, and no longer considered to be a Yautja. They are to be destroyed when encountered.
11.)Never Harm the Ill or Offspring: Yautja are known to have a very strict law on the killing of those pregnant with infants and those who are sick. Usually when they hunt and encounter both, the Yautja is to let them live. The only exception to the rule is if any ill prey pose a threat.
12.) When in a duel with an enemy, you must reveal yourself: it is "hunting ethic" to reveal yourself to your enemy at the climax of a fight.
Citation(s):
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Bad_Blood_(Yautja)
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Yautja_Honor_Code
Decent list, though decidedly lacking in citations for many items.
Still don't see what CH violated there other than losing. :P
Yeah even including the vaguer comic ones.
And there's nothing saying "don't wear down your prey". There are so many ways to interpret what CH does within whatever hunting guidelines are brought up that arguing it's "ambiguous" whether he's outside of said guidelines is kind of illogical.
While this list grows as new comics are introduced in the EU, I'm not guaging analysis against what the comics established in the EU so far. I guage against the general ethics introduced in the films. Agree or disagree in that context, that's cool.
T'was abbreviated for your sake. I left them out. I linked the actual places where they were found. Those citations are linked at the bottom of each page.
But if you want them...
Yautja Honor Code Sources:
1.) Predator: If It Bleeds
2.) Predator: Incursion
3.) Aliens vs. Predator: Blood Time
4.) Predators
5.) Predator 2
6.) Alien vs. Predator film
7.) Alien vs. Predator film
8.) Alien vs. Predator novelization, page 194
Bad Blood Sources:
1.) Aliens vs. Predator
2.) Predator: Bad Blood
3.) Predator: Prey to the Heavens
4.) Predator: Concrete Jungle (video game)
5.) Aliens vs. Predator: Three World War
6.) Batman versus Predator II: Bloodmatch
7.) Predators (possibly)
8.) Mortal Kombat X (possibly)
9.) Predator: Hunters (presumably)
10.) The Predator (presumably)
Nice one Ahab!
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 15, 2019, 01:27:28 AM
T'was abbreviated for your sake. I left them out. I linked the actual places where they were found. Those citations are linked at the bottom of each page.
But if you want them...
Yautja Honor Code Sources:
1.) Predator: If It Bleeds
2.) Predator: Incursion
3.) Aliens vs. Predator: Blood Time
4.) Predators
5.) Predator 2
6.) Alien vs. Predator film
7.) Alien vs. Predator film
8.) Alien vs. Predator novelization, page 194
Bad Blood Sources:
1.) Aliens vs. Predator
2.) Predator: Bad Blood
3.) Predator: Prey to the Heavens
4.) Predator: Concrete Jungle (video game)
5.) Aliens vs. Predator: Three World War
6.) Batman versus Predator II: Bloodmatch
7.) Predators (possibly)
8.) Mortal Kombat X (possibly)
9.) Predator: Hunters (presumably)
10.) The Predator (presumably)
I looked at the original page to see the citations (or lack thereof).
The entire concept of bad blood is from the EU.
Just watching the films, one would have no understanding the of the terms bad blood or yautja
Very true. The phrase comes from the EU. But it's become a fan trope to describe Yautja that dishonor Yautja code.
And it's obvious watching the movies, they most definitely have a code.
QuoteI looked at the original page to see the citations (or lack thereof).
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/NyGMqPl.jpg)
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 15, 2019, 01:47:39 AM
The entire concept of bad blood is from the EU.
Just watching the films, one would have no understanding the of the terms bad blood or yautja
Absolutely
this.
The only movies that loosely set the code are:
Predator. ---> Decloaking JH.
Predator 2. ---> CH's actions in certain previously discussed scenes.
AvP:1. ---> Ancient flashbacks, Scar and Alex, etc.
Predators. ---> Several scenes.
All of which has been discussed on the forums ad nauseam.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 15, 2019, 01:24:00 AM
I'm not guaging analysis against what the comics established in the EU so far. I guage against the general ethics introduced in the films.
Right, but you've still not shown how it's against the ethics shown in the films.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 15, 2019, 01:53:58 AM
Very true. The phrase comes from the EU. But it's become a fan trope to describe Yautja that dishonor Yautja code.
And it's obvious watching the movies, they most definitely have a code.
Obviously there is a code in the films but just watching predator and predator 2, no one would would ever come to the conclusion that City Hunter was breaking said code in any way other than perhaps losing to his prey imo.
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 15, 2019, 01:54:45 AM
QuoteI looked at the original page to see the citations (or lack thereof).
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/NyGMqPl.jpg)
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 15, 2019, 01:47:39 AM
The entire concept of bad blood is from the EU.
Just watching the films, one would have no understanding the of the terms bad blood or yautja
Absolutely this.
Geez, replace bad blood and Yautja with dishonorable and Predator.
I think we are getting a weeee too nitpicky here now. :P
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 15, 2019, 02:00:36 AM
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 15, 2019, 01:54:45 AM
QuoteI looked at the original page to see the citations (or lack thereof).
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/NyGMqPl.jpg)
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 15, 2019, 01:47:39 AM
The entire concept of bad blood is from the EU.
Just watching the films, one would have no understanding the of the terms bad blood or yautja
Absolutely this.
Geez, replace bad blood and Yautja with dishonorable and Predator.
I think we are getting a weeee too nitpicky here now. :P
Status quo.
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 15, 2019, 02:01:33 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 15, 2019, 02:00:36 AM
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 15, 2019, 01:54:45 AM
QuoteI looked at the original page to see the citations (or lack thereof).
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/NyGMqPl.jpg)
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 15, 2019, 01:47:39 AM
The entire concept of bad blood is from the EU.
Just watching the films, one would have no understanding the of the terms bad blood or yautja
Absolutely this.
Geez, replace bad blood and Yautja with dishonorable and Predator.
I think we are getting a weeee too nitpicky here now. :P
Status quo.
Ha! Fair point! :laugh:
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 15, 2019, 01:59:37 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 15, 2019, 01:53:58 AM
Very true. The phrase comes from the EU. But it's become a fan trope to describe Yautja that dishonor Yautja code.
And it's obvious watching the movies, they most definitely have a code.
Obviously there is a code in the films but just watching predator and predator 2, no one would would ever come to the conclusion that City Hunter was breaking said code in any way other than perhaps losing to his prey imo.
It's the torture aspect. Mental or physical, it doesn't align (to me) with Yautja sport hunting code, which aligns nicely with human sport hunting code. Therefore the torture aligns with neither. Imo
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 14, 2019, 08:17:31 AM
Well, there's the "let's torture Mike by killing all of his acquaintances" part, which looks pretty convincing from the opening post.
However, there are other possible explanations to this behavior than simple sadism. The City Hunter could try to make the prey more dangerous or more clumsy through rage and grief, for example.
Fair points. :)
Wearing down prey is a human sport hunting practice. Dogs are traditionally used in hunting deer and boar to physically exhaust and, in some cases, wound the prey sufficiently to make it easier to kill. CH used psychological techniques to wear him down instead.
Harrigan is also left with the option to flee, which falls under "fair chase".
Trapping is arguably physical torture -- you cripple the animal without killing it, leaving it to bleed and suffer until you find it and finish it off --and yet, again, is within human hunting ethics.
If we use human sporting, what we see is still not unethical.
QuoteIt's the torture aspect. Mental or physical, it doesn't align (to me) with Yautja sport hunting code, which aligns nicely with human sport hunting code. Therefore the torture aligns with neither. Imo
Scarface corners the market in that department...4:45 timestamp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3lKGmZVlBo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3lKGmZVlBo)
Here's a more in-depth analysis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpyPOvbFXCo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpyPOvbFXCo)
If I was more YouTube/video editing savvy, I would love to do in-depth analysis videos of each predator throughout all the mediums.
Ooh, my bad to my above post; trapping's a no-go.
Hounding is also considered unethical by modern standards -- but used to be standard practice in traditional hunts. Guess the ethics aren't even that clear-cut with humans.
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 15, 2019, 02:25:20 AM
If I was more YouTube/video editing savvy, I would love to do in-depth analysis videos of each predator throughout all the mediums.
If you have a smartphone, there are tons of easy video apps now, that allow you to make a video with footage, slideshows and text, while later adding narration using the phone's microphone. Then, all you have to do is upload it to your YouTube channel.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 15, 2019, 03:00:40 AM
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 15, 2019, 02:25:20 AM
If I was more YouTube/video editing savvy, I would love to do in-depth analysis videos of each predator throughout all the mediums.
If you have a smartphone, there are tons of easy video apps now, that allow you to make a video with footage, slideshows and text, while later adding narration using the phone's microphone. Then, all you have to do is upload it to your YouTube channel.
I need to learn this. I have boomer status in regards to that stuff. I'm also completely inept in photo editing.
ADDENDUM: February 16th, 2019:
It appears I found a
smoking gun to confirm that the City Hunter was
not following by all the Yautja Honor Code rules, a.k.a. "Bad Blood". And who would know more than Kevin Peter Hall himself, the actor portraying the Predator in "Predator 2"?
Per the bonus material on the "Predator 2" Special Edition DVD:
- KEVIN: "He's off on a wild trip. This one is not doing what normal Predators do, you know, which is hunt and go by the rules. He's definitely breaking all the rules. So he's a wild boy."
In an earlier draft of the "Predator 2" script, the City Hunter was still breathing after his last fight with Harrigan, only for the Grayback Elder Predator to behead the City Hunter with a flash of a knife. Even though the reasoning for the beheading was left unambiguous in the script and originally could be perceived as punishment for losing a fight with Harrigan, it is now
also reasonable to conclude (after hearing Kevin's own words) that the Predator was originally intended to be punished for his dishonorable behavior.
Original "Predator 2" Storyboards:(https://i.ibb.co/09RrNGQ/P2scan0001.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZBjj9T7/P2scan0002.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/L1SpXP3/P2scan0003.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/GQZYwz1/P2scan0004.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/9NYw0G5/P2scan0005.jpg)
*
Note: It's important to remember a Predator does not need to ignore all the laws of their code to qualify as dishonorable, or "bad blood". It only needs to ignore one of them.
What happened to only using the films as a source?
Even accepting what Hall says - where is it born out in the film?
Also which rule of fight club is this?
Quote
* Note: It's important to remember a Predator does not need to ignore all the laws of their code to qualify as dishonorable, or "bad blood". It only needs to ignore one of them.
Quote from: SM on Feb 16, 2019, 09:29:23 PM
Even accepting what Hall says - where is it born out in the film?
Even accepting what Hall says? :D
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'll go with Kevin Peter Hall, who actually played the City Hunter Predator in "Predator 2" and actually understood its motivations, over a forum member named SM.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 16, 2019, 09:20:12 PM
What happened to only using the films as a source?
I'm not using EU. I'm using logic. Do you have to break every law to be a criminal? Do you have to break every commandment to be a sinner? Did you have to break every rule your parents inforced to get punished? Logic brother, logic.
QuoteEven accepting what Hall says? :D
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'll go with Kevin Peter Hall, who actually played the City Hunter Predator in "Predator 2" and actually understood its motivations, over a forum member named SM.
So I'll take that as "It isn't born out in the film - witness my attempt to obfuscate".
QuoteI'm not using EU. I'm using logic.
You're using sources outside of the films.
I don't really have an issue with extra-cinematic sources if they're used to reinforce what's in the film.
I have no doubt in Hall's sincerity but "He's definitely breaking all the rules" is obviously wrong.
I don't mind either, but VM was pretty specific about only using the films. If the "smoking gun" is an interview that doesn't bare much on what we see in the film, that's a pretty weak smoking gun.
Quote from: SM on Feb 16, 2019, 09:42:55 PM
QuoteEven accepting what Hall says? :D
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'll go with Kevin Peter Hall, who actually played the City Hunter Predator in "Predator 2" and actually understood its motivations, over a forum member named SM.
So I'll take that as "It isn't born out in the film - witness my attempt to obfuscate".
Riiight.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 16, 2019, 09:50:15 PM
QuoteI'm not using EU. I'm using logic.
You're using sources outside of the films.
When much is wisely left ambiguous, it leaves fans the enjoyment of using reasoning. And when all this P1 & P2 behavior aligned with honorable sports hunters in our society, some of the City Hunter's behavior didn't make sense. Didn't align. I explained this. I used reasoning.
It's nice to hear Kevin confirm I was on the right track.
Quote from: SM on Feb 16, 2019, 09:54:55 PM
I don't really have an issue with extra-cinematic sources if they're used to reinforce what's in the film.
I have no doubt in Hall's sincerity but "He's definitely breaking all the rules" is obviously wrong.
Oh my lord. I bet my wife when I posted this hours ago that you would go there.
It's
but, but, they were skinned alive all over again. 'Breaking all the rules" is a saying. In America we say that constantly. Saying it
doesn't mean you-are-literally-breaking-every-rule. You're not murdering every person you meet. You're not running every stop sign. Every traffic light. Stealing everything.
This has to be deliberate...
So we have to accept what Hall says, except when we don't. He's not only following the rule about killing armed opponents established in the first film, he's following a new one about sparing pregnant prey. Which rules is he breaking?
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eRNFAA-CoA0/WaHDgT2hBQI/AAAAAAAAIeU/r7LcsfwkauYns9emL72q3yM0F20jctqxgCLcBGAs/s1600/Moving-the-goalposts-300x2402.jpg)
Instead of 'well that's cool you found that Voodoo. Hall actually played the Predator in P2, he actually talked to the director about what the creature is doing, what the Predator's motivation is. I just wish we could see that clearer in the movie. Because it's not.'
Instead of that... I get the onslaught of the pettifogging pair. It's no wonder why my PM box gets so full of condolences.
My first post in the thread pointed out what Hall said.
You keep saying it's ambiguous when everything can be easily explained within known rules. You've made it known why you think what you do, but you don't bother responding to valid counter points and just double down that you're right.
I don't feel like practicing the definition of insanity and running this loop and expecting a different result, so with you two I'm out. Later on.
What if the ultimate thrill is the only reason for Predators and trophies are memorabilia of the best moments? The goal is to walk a thin line between life and death which brings the greatest personal pleasure. 50% of chance to succeed or to fail. It does not mean that they are perfect at it.
Something similar I find and look for in video games. They are pleasant to me when the gameplay system is fair. I cannot easily overpower enemies and be overpowered by them if I am not sloppy.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 16, 2019, 10:48:32 PM
I don't feel like practicing the definition of insanity and running this loop and expecting a different result, so with you two I'm out. Later on.
You've been avoiding answering very straightforward questions for the last few pages anyway, so not much of a switch?
Quote from: molasar on Feb 17, 2019, 08:48:31 AM
What if the ultimate thrill is the only reason for Predators and trophies are memorabilia of the best moments?
That's pretty much what trophy hunting is, yeah.
Quote from: molasar on Feb 17, 2019, 08:48:31 AM
What if the ultimate thrill is the only reason for Predators and trophies are memorabilia of the best moments? The goal is to walk a thin line between life and death which brings the greatest personal pleasure. 50% of chance to succeed or to fail. It does not mean that they are perfect at it.
If we continue drawing human sports hunter societal parallels, I would imagine there was, at the very least, a few of these personality types, right? Yet most outdoor hunters are contempt with hunting
not the biggest game year in - year out. Their comfortable hunting easier prey like deer and putting a deer head on the wall, or fishing for fresh water fish and preserving their biggest catch ever, rather then seeking out the real challenges deep in salt water. I wonder how many of them get the drive to hunt the biggest, most dangerous game, at least once in their life?
There certainly would seem to be bigger and more dangerous game around based on the Predator trophy wall, that's for sure!
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5928f190725e2556b3ad6322/t/593ede301e5b6ca18cc57472/1497292345680/)
To me, I think if a Predator was truly trying to fight a thin line with humans, with a 50% chance to succeed, they probably would drop the plasma caster and camouflage. That would certainly amp up the risk factor!
QuoteSomething similar I find and look for in video games. They are pleasant to me when the gameplay system is fair. I cannot easily overpower enemies and be overpowered by them if I am not sloppy.
Ah don't get me started! So many of my fiends would use cheats and walk-throughs to finish games, and I'd argue they were depriving themselves of the challenge and satisfaction of beating the game themselves. My pleas were always met with blank stares. :laugh:
Quote from: SiL on Feb 17, 2019, 08:54:00 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 16, 2019, 10:48:32 PM
I don't feel like practicing the definition of insanity and running this loop and expecting a different result, so with you two I'm out. Later on.
You've been avoiding answering very straightforward questions for the last few pages anyway, so not much of a switch?
Quote from: molasar on Feb 17, 2019, 08:48:31 AM
What if the ultimate thrill is the only reason for Predators and trophies are memorabilia of the best moments?
That's pretty much what trophy hunting is, yeah.
Damn, that's arrogant mate ! He/she just stated something simply and politely, and you follow that with a condescending comment ! Sure it's easy and safe to be like that on the internet, i would love to see the same behavior anytime you feel like it in real life, that would give me a huge laugh, knowing in the real world there could be real consequences huh ! :laugh:
It didnt come off as arrogant or condescending. ???
This place is getting silly.
Quote from: Kradan on Feb 13, 2019, 08:56:55 PM
Sorry for interfering you guys, but it seems for me that here is argument for the sake of argument. There's a lot of facts (no, i'm not gonna name them all) proving that Predators are honorable and a lot of facts proving that they are dishonorable. But what matters is "what you choose to believe" ( this is quote from Prometheus, isn't it? Don't remember actually)
Oh there's been plenty of condescension in here. But I'm used to it from certain characters.
My post was supposed to be fun. Pose a question. Not a declaration. But for some, instead of a desire to discuss and explore ideas, they are firing off shots trying, with a goal in mind - discredit.
The humerous part is how wrong they've been - "Skinned Alive" in Predator! Oh it's not literal, just a trope? Well "skinned alive" in AvPR! Oh, he was killed before skinned? Well human hunters are fine with injuring prey to lure bigger prey! Oh they don't? Well human hunters let dogs rips appart prey! Wait oops, that's wrong too! Well Kevin Peter Hall said the City Hunter is breaking all the rules, so he's wrong because he used the word "all"? Wait it's a common phrase? Well now you're not answering questions (even though anyone who reads through the thread can see it's more of - I've answered these questions already, and at this point just repeating myself.)
The method is called clobbering with questions, with no real goal of open minded discussion. There is just that one desired result. I can see right through it. And according to my PM box, so can others.
I'm fine with not agreeing. Many have posted countering thoughts and I've replied with "fair point" etc. But there is no agree to disagree with some. Some need to be right, and get in the last word to boot. Otherwise it's an itch they can't scratch.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 17, 2019, 03:41:12 PM
But there is no agree to disagree with some. Some need to be right, and get in the last word to boot. Otherwise it's an itch they can't scratch.
That does seems to summarize many discussions I have seen over the years here.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 17, 2019, 04:00:20 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 17, 2019, 03:41:12 PM
But there is no agree to disagree with some. Some need to be right, and get in the last word to boot. Otherwise it's an itch they can't scratch.
That does seems to summarize many discussions I have seen over the years here.
Yeah, unfortunately, considering this is fandom and supposed to be fun! :-\
Then there are people who seem overly lighthearted and never serious, but are actually quite defensive of their opinions and don't like when the logic of there theories are questioned.
Oh well
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 17, 2019, 04:38:02 PM
Then there are people who seem overly lighthearted and never serious, but are actually quite defensive of their opinions and don't like when the logic of there theories are questioned.
Come on now, ya actually got to read the thread before you make statements like that. These are all replies of mine, to my therioes being questioned. None are duplicated:
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 12, 2019, 10:43:57 PM
Thanks brother John. You may be right, the City Hunter might be young and reckless.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 01:23:03 PM
And that's the neat thing when it's left unambiguous. We can all come away with a different take on it.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 02:23:49 PM
In all seriousness, I can get that. Cheers!
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 14, 2019, 12:59:30 PM
And because you feel this behavior is valid play, it directs your opinion. Fair enough.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 14, 2019, 04:47:28 PM
Fair enough.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 14, 2019, 09:59:15 PM
It's okay if we disagree.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 15, 2019, 01:24:00 AM
Agree or disagree in that context, that's cool.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 15, 2019, 02:03:25 AM
Ha! Fair point! :laugh:
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 15, 2019, 01:53:58 AM
Fair points. :)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 14, 2019, 11:57:17 AM
It was slim pickings for human prey in the jungle.
After watching the first movie again this weekend I remembered this line, it wasn't slim pickings in the jungle. There were Hopper's men, the guerrilla's at the encampment Dutch's team destroyed, and Hawkins says that there were more guerrillas a mile or two away (hence no chopper pick up at the camp).
JH saw what Dutch's team did to the guerrillas and marked them as the better game to hunt.Since he tried to kill Dutch while he was playing bait, and again with the plasma cannon after Billy died, I don't think he was ever purposefully saving Dutch for last. I doubt he "knew" how much of a challenge Dutch would be until their final fight.
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Feb 17, 2019, 08:00:59 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 14, 2019, 11:57:17 AM
It was slim pickings for human prey in the jungle.
After watching the first movie again this weekend I remembered this line, it wasn't slim pickings in the jungle. There were Hopper's men, the guerrilla's at the encampment Dutch's team destroyed, and Hawkins says that there were more guerrillas a mile or two away (hence no chopper pick up at the camp).
JH saw what Dutch's team did to the guerrillas and marked them as the better game to hunt.Since he tried to kill Dutch while he was playing bait, and again with the plasma cannon after Billy died, I don't think he was ever purposefully saving Dutch for last. I doubt he "knew" how much of a challenge Dutch would be until their final fight.
Ah, the more guerrillas! I forgot about that! That's a really good catch. Nicely done! :)
And much agreed about Dutch.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 17, 2019, 03:41:12 PM
My post was supposed to be fun. Pose a question. Not a declaration. But for some, instead of a desire to discuss and explore ideas, they are firing off shots trying, with a goal in mind - discredit.
The idea was always to discuss ideas, but when pressed on points you just kept going back to your original statements even when people presented perfectly valid counter points - or just saying "cool, thanks".
Exploring ideas doesn't mean agreeing to disagree when two people don't see eye to eye, it means, well, exploring ideas. And some ideas end up not having much strength behind them.
That's not a bad thing. So many cool ideas have been had over the years but when poked and prodded a little they don't hold up. And that's fine! That's part of the fun. We move on, have new epiphanies, and start over.
People disagreeing with you isn't being condescending or shitting on your thoughts, it's the honest point of having a discussion.
If you think that posing a topic to discuss means everyone has to think your idea is wonderful or valid or full of merit regardless of anything else, that's not really having a discussion. That's just looking for people to pat you on the back for how clever you've been for having an idea.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 20, 2019, 01:46:57 PM
Quote from: SiL on Feb 20, 2019, 01:31:50 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 17, 2019, 03:41:12 PM
My post was supposed to be fun. Pose a question. Not a declaration. But for some, instead of a desire to discuss and explore ideas, they are firing off shots trying, with a goal in mind - discredit.
The idea was always to discuss ideas, but when pressed on points you just kept going back to your original statements even when people presented perfectly valid counter points - or just saying "cool, thanks".
Exploring ideas doesn't mean agreeing to disagree when two people don't see eye to eye, it means, well, exploring ideas. And some ideas end up not having much strength behind them.
That's not a bad thing. So many cool ideas have been had over the years but when poked and prodded a little they don't hold up. And that's fine! That's part of the fun. We move on, have new epiphanies, and start over.
People disagreeing with you isn't being condescending or shitting on your thoughts, it's the honest point of having a discussion.
If you think that posing a topic to discuss means everyone has to think your idea is wonderful or valid or full of merit regardless of anything else, that's not really having a discussion. That's just looking for people to pat you on the back for how clever you've been for having an idea.
Mmmm. A fresh cup of passive aggressiveness in the morning. Tasty! Righty-o. I thought when I posted a theory, everyone was obligated to agree with me. That's not in the forum rules? My bad!
Not a single person agreed with my theory. Not a single one. Yet we had civil discussions for some reason? What could be the difference here? It's not disagreements itself. Hmmm.... let me think.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
QuoteA fresh cup of passive aggressiveness.
To be fair, we do have
two buttons for that issue. I use them when necessary. ;D Which has been pretty often lately.
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 20, 2019, 04:20:05 PM
QuoteA fresh cup of passive aggressiveness.
To be fair, we do have two buttons for that issue. I use them when necessary. ;D Which has been pretty often lately.
Ah, true. Indeed. Wise point sir.
Now I know why, when we hang out together around here, everyone refers to you as the smart one. ;D
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 20, 2019, 04:36:47 PM
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 20, 2019, 04:20:05 PM
QuoteA fresh cup of passive aggressiveness.
To be fair, we do have two buttons for that issue. I use them when necessary. ;D Which has been pretty often lately.
Ah, true. Indeed. Wise point sir.
Now I know why, when we hang out together around here, everyone refers to you as the smart one. ;D
I'm not necessarily smart...but common sense and self awareness are present.
Quit it guys, chill.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 20, 2019, 03:19:27 PM
Not a single person agreed with my theory. Not a single one. Yet we had civil discussions for some reason? What could be the difference here? It's not disagreements itself. Hmmm.... let me think.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I've seen some theories tossed around in my day that right out of the gate I said "yeah, I don't agree with that at all". But I'll take a well-articulated and interesting "wrong" theory any day of the week over people patting themselves on the back with a topic that's been discussed to death for decades.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 22, 2019, 04:23:08 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 20, 2019, 03:19:27 PM
Not a single person agreed with my theory. Not a single one. Yet we had civil discussions for some reason? What could be the difference here? It's not disagreements itself. Hmmm.... let me think.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I've seen some theories tossed around in my day that right out of the gate I said "yeah, I don't agree with that at all". But I'll take a well-articulated and interesting "wrong" theory any day of the week over people patting themselves on the back with a topic that's been discussed to death for decades.
Thanks for the response brother. Much agreed and much appreciated. :)
I don't mind being wrong, or considered wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. ;D Though regarding this hypothesis itself, right or wrong, I personally feel it stands on much sturdier ground when Kevin Peter Hall was recorded saying the things I am thinking. But I can play devil's advocate:
The valid counter is the City Hunter is just young and
reckless (the Thomas brothers have used both of these words), and reckless means
careless of consequences and
irresponsible. So the question becomes, does
not-caring-of-consequences or being
irresponsible ever equate to dishonorable behavior to Predators (aka the fan favorite phrase "Bad Blood")?
Does recklessness get a pass when you're young, but if you're a seasoned adult Predator, it's unacceptable? Could be. Or is it, no matter what the age, even though recklessness is bad behavior, it will never equate to dishonorable behavior? Could also be.
So maybe the common ground is dishonorable or not, "bad blood" or not, most of us can agree that the City Hunter Predator was practicing some bad behavior. ;D
The City Hunter never struck me as a band blood.
As for his being killed by Greyback in the novel - I read that as the chief giving him an honourable death when he was mortally wounded and shamed by defeat.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Feb 23, 2019, 02:20:09 PM
The City Hunter never struck me as a band blood.
As for his being killed by Greyback in the novel - I read that as the chief giving him an honourable death when he was mortally wounded and shamed by defeat.
That strikes me as a Samurai-esque culture type thing. How like when Samurai are defeated in battle, they commit ritual suicide. If unable, they are assisted.
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 23, 2019, 04:19:00 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Feb 23, 2019, 02:20:09 PM
The City Hunter never struck me as a band blood.
As for his being killed by Greyback in the novel - I read that as the chief giving him an honourable death when he was mortally wounded and shamed by defeat.
Yep. That makes sense.
I personally never lean on novelizations for clarifications because it's often an author extrapolating and expanding upon what is not found in the script. I find it even worse when some details in the book don't even match up to the movie at all! But I digress. From what I could tell, even though this scene is left ambiguous in the earlier drafts I've read, the honorable death explanation does indeed make a great, great deal of sense. :)
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 23, 2019, 04:19:00 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Feb 23, 2019, 02:20:09 PM
The City Hunter never struck me as a band blood.
As for his being killed by Greyback in the novel - I read that as the chief giving him an honourable death when he was mortally wounded and shamed by defeat.
That strikes me as a Samurai-esque culture type thing. How like when Samurai are defeated in battle, they commit ritual suicide. If unable, they are assisted.
I can't believe the Samurai ritual suicide was sometimes
self-disembowelment! I mean, what a horrible way to go! :-[
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2019, 01:52:55 AM
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 23, 2019, 04:19:00 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Feb 23, 2019, 02:20:09 PM
The City Hunter never struck me as a band blood.
As for his being killed by Greyback in the novel - I read that as the chief giving him an honourable death when he was mortally wounded and shamed by defeat.
Yep. That makes sense.
I personally never lean on novelizations for clarifications because it's often an author extrapolating and expanding upon what is not found in the script. I find it even worse when some details in the book don't even match up to the movie at all! But I digress. From what I could tell, even though this scene is left ambiguous in the earlier drafts I've read, the honorable death explanation does indeed make a great, great deal of sense. :)
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 23, 2019, 04:19:00 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Feb 23, 2019, 02:20:09 PM
The City Hunter never struck me as a band blood.
As for his being killed by Greyback in the novel - I read that as the chief giving him an honourable death when he was mortally wounded and shamed by defeat.
That strikes me as a Samurai-esque culture type thing. How like when Samurai are defeated in battle, they commit ritual suicide. If unable, they are assisted.
I can't believe the Samurai ritual suicide was sometimes self-disembowelment! I mean, what a horrible way to go! :-[
Think of the
self discipline that takes. They are admirable in the sense they have strong sense of honor and principles.
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 24, 2019, 02:26:54 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2019, 01:52:55 AM
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 23, 2019, 04:19:00 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Feb 23, 2019, 02:20:09 PM
The City Hunter never struck me as a band blood.
As for his being killed by Greyback in the novel - I read that as the chief giving him an honourable death when he was mortally wounded and shamed by defeat.
Yep. That makes sense.
I personally never lean on novelizations for clarifications because it's often an author extrapolating and expanding upon what is not found in the script. I find it even worse when some details in the book don't even match up to the movie at all! But I digress. From what I could tell, even though this scene is left ambiguous in the earlier drafts I've read, the honorable death explanation does indeed make a great, great deal of sense. :)
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 23, 2019, 04:19:00 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Feb 23, 2019, 02:20:09 PM
The City Hunter never struck me as a band blood.
As for his being killed by Greyback in the novel - I read that as the chief giving him an honourable death when he was mortally wounded and shamed by defeat.
That strikes me as a Samurai-esque culture type thing. How like when Samurai are defeated in battle, they commit ritual suicide. If unable, they are assisted.
I can't believe the Samurai ritual suicide was sometimes self-disembowelment! I mean, what a horrible way to go! :-[
Think of the self discipline that takes. They are admirable in the sense they have strong sense of honor and principles.
Truly!
Most of these namby pamby latte drinking hipsters would be too troubled with a hangnail, let alone a tango blade to the abdomen.
https://youtu.be/IctBSH5a9Sw (https://youtu.be/IctBSH5a9Sw)
3 times because Shane Black references.
;D
Slack-jawed is a good way to call the predators with broken mandibles.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 24, 2019, 03:31:20 AM
Slack-jawed is a good way to call the predators with broken mandibles.
Stealing that. ;)
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 24, 2019, 03:31:20 AM
Slack-jawed is a good way to call the predators with broken mandibles.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/CEN9erFS5cgo/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c72120455726d6667d4edd7)
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 24, 2019, 02:26:54 AMThink of the self discipline that takes. They are admirable in the sense they have strong sense of honor and principles.
I've no idea if it still applies today, but historically the Japanese had a very strange (by Western standards) view on suicide. Suicide in and of itself was considered a thing of honour, and the more awful it was, the more honourable it was deemed to be.
the films don't strictly follow the whole EU conceit (including the honour thing), so applying that is largely useless, but if you do, remember that CH came back to the tribe ship & they seemed to be pretty respectful of it when carrying it away
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 24, 2019, 11:50:06 AM
the films don't strictly follow the whole EU conceit (including the honour thing), so applying that is largely useless, but if you do, remember that CH came back to the tribe ship & they seemed to be pretty respectful of it when carrying it away
That's fair.
To me, they needed four Predators to honorably carry the City Hunter out. Just using two, one Predator was forced to grab the CH by the crook of its knee, while the other leg seemed to have the sound effect of dragging on the ship floor. But perhaps, playing devil's advocate, maybe I'm just looking at it too much with human eyes.
Of course, they could have just poured that blue organic disolving liquid on the City Hunter, the stuff the Wolf used in AvPR! ;D
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Feb 23, 2019, 02:20:09 PM
The City Hunter never struck me as a band blood.
As for his being killed by Greyback in the novel - I read that as the chief giving him an honourable death when he was mortally wounded and shamed by defeat.
The first 'Batman vs Predator' ends in the same way, with the defeated Predator getting executed by his clan-mates.
Now I kind of wonder if the comic writers were intentionally referencing the unused 'Predator 2' ending, or if they came up with it independently.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 24, 2019, 01:48:36 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Feb 23, 2019, 02:20:09 PM
The City Hunter never struck me as a band blood.
As for his being killed by Greyback in the novel - I read that as the chief giving him an honourable death when he was mortally wounded and shamed by defeat.
The first 'Batman vs Predator' ends in the same way, with the defeated Predator getting executed by his clan-mates.
Now I kind of wonder if the comic writers were intentionally referencing the unused 'Predator 2' ending, or if they came up with it independently.
I still haven't read that comic. It's on my list though. Any good?
The first Batman vs Predator series is a classic. It really is a fantastic predator comic.
The original cover art was magnificent.
(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c531bd7a0a4c9629727064460038221a5c08028bf7d369ec1ce92c0cc2071fc6.jpg)
It was a long time ago but I remember liking it too. However, how much of a Batman fan you are, might sway your opinion.
Actually I always felt the first series works equally well as both a Predator and Batman story. Of course fans of both may enjoy it even more. But even if you are just a predator fan the series is very faithful to the predator franchise and it definitley doesnt skimp on the gore.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 24, 2019, 03:31:13 PM
Actually I always felt the first series works equally well as both a Predator and Batman story. Of course fans of both may enjoy it even more. But even if you are just a predator fan the series is very faithful to the predator franchise and it definitley doesnt skimp on the gore.
Ah cool. Since it's been like 15 years since I read it, I'll refer to your expertise on the matter. :)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2019, 03:15:25 PM
It was a long time ago but I remember liking it too. However, how much of a Batman fan you are, might sway your opinion.
Absolutely like The Dark Knight style Batman. Is it a similar take?
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 24, 2019, 05:03:55 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2019, 03:15:25 PM
It was a long time ago but I remember liking it too. However, how much of a Batman fan you are, might sway your opinion.
Absolutely like The Dark Knight style Batman. Is it a similar take?
Ah, now you are going to draw me to the old box, wipe the dust off, and give it a fresh read. ;D
426Buddy will probably be able to answer this better, but if I recall - remaining spoiler free - there was a lot of 'Detective Batman' at work, the Predator was acting out of character at times, and the artwork was very good, but not at all in the Frank Miller 'The Dark Knight Returns' style.
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 24, 2019, 05:03:55 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2019, 03:15:25 PM
It was a long time ago but I remember liking it too. However, how much of a Batman fan you are, might sway your opinion.
Absolutely like The Dark Knight style Batman. Is it a similar take?
No, this is a more Tim Burton-esque Batman, meaning it's fairly realistic but also colourful.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 24, 2019, 07:36:26 PM
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 24, 2019, 05:03:55 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2019, 03:15:25 PM
It was a long time ago but I remember liking it too. However, how much of a Batman fan you are, might sway your opinion.
Absolutely like The Dark Knight style Batman. Is it a similar take?
No, this is a more Tim Burton-esque Batman, meaning it's fairly realistic but also colourful.
That's kind of what I'm getting at. I prefer the more realistic Batman stories. So this sounds good! I'm so sad comics are a dying medium....
Comics aren't a dying medium, DC and Marvel are- because Image provides complete, creator driven stories.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 25, 2019, 07:15:18 PM
Comics aren't a dying medium, DC and Marvel are- because Image provides complete, creator driven stories.
True. Terrible business decisions trying to rebrand unpopular characters like 20 times over...launch each new series that does maybe 5 issues and then dies.
Logic is
devoid in the mainstream comic industry. ::)
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 25, 2019, 07:15:18 PM
Comics aren't a dying medium, DC and Marvel are- because Image provides complete, creator driven stories.
Yeah, I see plenty of new titles from companies other than DC and Marvel that look promising or that I hear good things about.
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 25, 2019, 08:30:07 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 25, 2019, 07:15:18 PM
Comics aren't a dying medium, DC and Marvel are- because Image provides complete, creator driven stories.
True. Terrible business decisions trying to rebrand unpopular characters like 20 times over...launch each new series that does maybe 5 issues and then dies.
Logic is devoid in the mainstream comic industry. ::)
Yeah...not sure what they're thinking half the time. You have things that are really good and take certain characters in really interesting directions, like Superior Spider-Man and the first Spider-Verse for example and then where Peter Parker goes after that in ANAD. Recently though they've been kind of killing his character in a lot of peoples eyes and backtracking him unnecessarily. In contrast to that though the new Venom stuff is apparently really good and the new run for Superior Spider-Man has been promising.
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Feb 25, 2019, 09:36:53 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 25, 2019, 07:15:18 PM
Comics aren't a dying medium, DC and Marvel are- because Image provides complete, creator driven stories.
Yeah, I see plenty of new titles from companies other than DC and Marvel that look promising or that I hear good things about.
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 25, 2019, 08:30:07 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 25, 2019, 07:15:18 PM
Comics aren't a dying medium, DC and Marvel are- because Image provides complete, creator driven stories.
True. Terrible business decisions trying to rebrand unpopular characters like 20 times over...launch each new series that does maybe 5 issues and then dies.
Logic is devoid in the mainstream comic industry. ::)
Yeah...not sure what they're thinking half the time. You have things that are really good and take certain characters in really interesting directions, like Superior Spider-Man and the first Spider-Verse for example and then where Peter Parker goes after that in ANAD. Recently though they've been kind of killing his character in a lot of peoples eyes and backtracking him unnecessarily. In contrast to that though the new Venom stuff is apparently really good and the new run for Superior Spider-Man has been promising.
Oh, I know what they are thinking. I know
exactly why they do what they do. But those reasons belong in another subsection of the General Forum part of AvP Galaxy. If you catch my meaning. But alas, I digress. The choices they make are dumb. I've always loved Dark Horse for the majority of Alien, Predator, AvP comics. Also some Star Wars ones.
Spoiler
You should have seen what some comic pros said after Stan Lee's death. Absolutely disgraceful. Dumpster fire.
Wait what? I saw pretty much nothing but universal praise and mourning when Stan Lee passed. Were people saying negative things?
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 26, 2019, 06:58:16 AM
Wait what? I saw pretty much nothing but universal praise and mourning when Stan Lee passed. Were people saying negative things?
Sending PM.
More added to the front page. Remember this is done all in fun.
ADDENDUM: February 26th, 2019:
Supplementals, some inspired by conversations with this great community.Honor in handling the deadThere is a case to be made that the body of the City Hunter Predator was dragged out dishonorably.
One could suggest
four Predators were needed to honorably carry the body of the City Hunter. By just using two, one Predator was forced to grab the City Hunter by the crook of its knee, while the other leg of the City Hunter was left dangling, made seemingly obvious by the accompanied sound effect of it dragging across the ship floor. This method certainly doesn't feel very respectful.
(https://i.ibb.co/FnmGrhN/IMG-20190224-071743.jpg)
Compare that to the apparent honorable treatment Scar's body received in the 2004 film "Alien vs Predator", where four Predators carried Scar's dead body out on a stretcher.
(https://i.ibb.co/xfc4s0q/IMG-20190226-092546.jpg)
Including AVP as canon or not, it's just an example that carried by four is seemingly (to human eyes) more respectful than two, in just the way they can handle the load.
The City Hunter is the first Predator to hunt in a high population centerIn unused dialogue from the second draft of the "Predator 2" script, Agent Peter Keyes alleges that in 700 years of unverified accounts of Predator visits on Earth, the City Hunter was the
first Predator to hunt in a high population area.
(https://i.ibb.co/L18y2wV/IMG-20190226-093127.jpg)
Could this practice of hunting in a high populated area be dishonorable and against Yautja code? Quite possible. Or is it just too dangerous? Either way, if Keyes is correct, hunting in the city is
not at all normal Predator behavior.
Is being reckless dishonorable?The City Hunter Predator is obviously young and reckless. Even John & Jim Thomas, the writers of both "Predator" and "Predator 2", have declared it as such in various publications.
(https://i.ibb.co/YpSVSj4/IMG-20190226-093513.jpg)
So what does reckless mean?
reck·less
/ˈrekləs/adjective
marked by lack of proper caution : careless of consequences.
Irresponsible.
(Merriam-Webster)
So being reckless is indeed
bad behavior. But the question becomes, does not-caring-of-consequences or being irresponsible ever equate to dishonorable behavior to Predators (aka the fan favorite phrase "Bad Blood")?
Does recklessness get a pass when you're young, but if you're a seasoned adult Predator, it's unacceptable? Could be. Or is it, no matter what the age, even though recklessness is bad behavior, it will never equate to dishonorable behavior? Could also be. Or is there ever a point of too much? Quite possible.
No matter where one may stand on the issue, the common ground is dishonorable or not, "bad blood" or not, most of us can agree that the City Hunter Predator in "Predator 2" was at least practicing some bad behavior.
fini
Jokingly.
You used AvP. Thread is invalid.
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 26, 2019, 04:50:12 PM
Jokingly.
You used AvP. Thread is invalid.
Ha. :laugh: It's only used to reinforce that, AVP or not, carried by four is seemingly (to human eyes) more respectful than two, in just the way they can handle the load.
Don't four of them pick him up and carry him on their shoulders in Predator 2?
Either way, they still come across as obviously reverent to me.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 26, 2019, 04:47:36 PM
Compare that to the apparent honorable treatment Scar's body received in the 2004 film "Alien vs Predator", where four Predators carried Scar's dead body out on a stretcher.
They used a stretcher because they didn't want to touch Scar's ugly ass. :P. The crap design made the whole sequence look bad.
Differents clans too, the ones from P2 are just old school.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Feb 26, 2019, 05:02:28 PM
Don't four of them pick him up and carry him on their shoulders in Predator 2?
Definitely not. If four Predators picked the City Hunter up and carried him/her on their shoulders, I'm probably not posting this thread! ;D
QuoteEither way, they still come across as obviously reverent to me.
Totally fair conclusion!
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 26, 2019, 05:02:45 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 26, 2019, 04:47:36 PM
Compare that to the apparent honorable treatment Scar's body received in the 2004 film "Alien vs Predator", where four Predators carried Scar's dead body out on a stretcher.
They used a stretcher because they didn't want to touch Scar's ugly ass. :P. The crap design made the whole sequence look bad.
Well dammit!! How do I argue with that??? :D
QuoteDifferents clans too, the ones from P2 are just old school.
I love me some old school!
Well, one could argue all the P2 Predators were hunting in a population zone. I honestly doubt they all sat on the ship and waited for CH to finish his hunt.
You can also argue that different clans have different burial rights/ways to handle the head. They're probably all similar, but differ slightly clan to clan. Scar's body could have been handled that way for a few different reasons; One reason could be that the clan Scar was a part of were all blood related in some way (they all look similar in skin/body type). The Lost Tribe looks to be more of a group of individuals who came together to hunt, all their skin tones are different and there are even differences in their armor that make them appear more rag tag and less uniform than the clan from AVP.
So how the Lost Tribe members handled his body probably was honorable based on their own clan structure and his rank within the clan.
Scar had also killed several aliens and faced off against a queen who he did end up defeating, so his clan probably held him in extra high regard. He did go from being unblooded to defeating what is probably the strongest member of the hive.
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Feb 26, 2019, 05:12:59 PM
Well, one could argue all the P2 Predators were hunting in a population zone. I honestly doubt they all sat on the ship and waited for CH to finish his hunt.
I never had that impression. I think its implied that only CH hunted, even if its weird for the others to just watch from the ship. Maybe CH was being evaluated during the hunt, a testing like the one in AVP.
On the novel CH wanted to hunt on Earth due to Anytime dying here. He could have asked his buddies to pay for the ride and hunt here, maybe it was his birthday or a predator's equivalent of a Bachelor party. That's why CH was allowed to practice some bad behavior.
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Feb 26, 2019, 05:12:59 PM
Well, one could argue all the P2 Predators were hunting in a population zone. I honestly doubt they all sat on the ship and waited for CH to finish his hunt.
Or, as i surmised in the OP, the other Predators made an appearance at the end of the movie realising the "bad blood" City Hunter was getting out of hand, arrived from a different ship, and boarded the City Hunter's ship just in time to see Mike kill the City Hunter?
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/9WbGRvp5hRGwg/200.gif?cid=3640f6095c705bda4d4c34626f0328f4)
;D
That's just me theorizing. Who knows. But being reckless and never hunting in a population center before were the writers' ideas. So would a clan just sit and watch that? Not sure.
QuoteYou can also argue that different clans have different burial rights/ways to handle the head. They're probably all similar, but differ slightly clan to clan. Scar's body could have been handled that way for a few different reasons; One reason could be that the clan Scar was a part of were all blood related in some way (they all look similar in skin/body type). The Lost Tribe looks to be more of a group of individuals who came together to hunt, all their skin tones are different and there are even differences in their armor that make them appear more rag tag and less uniform than the clan from AVP.
So how the Lost Tribe members handled his body probably was honorable based on their own clan structure and his rank within the clan.
Scar had also killed several aliens and faced off against a queen who he did end up defeating, so his clan probably held him in extra high regard. He did go from being unblooded to defeating what is probably the strongest member of the hive.
Good points!
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 26, 2019, 05:21:30 PM
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Feb 26, 2019, 05:12:59 PM
Well, one could argue all the P2 Predators were hunting in a population zone. I honestly doubt they all sat on the ship and waited for CH to finish his hunt.
I never had that impression. I think its implied that only CH hunted, even if its weird for the others to just watch from the ship. Maybe CH was being evaluated during the hunt, a testing like the one in AVP.
Great point! The CH was confirmed as young.
QuoteOn the novel CH wanted to hunt on Earth due to Anytime dying here. He could have asked his buddies to pay for the ride and hunt here, maybe it was his birthday or a predator's equivalent of a Bachelor party. That's why CH was allowed to "break some rules".
The Yautja Bachelor Party Theory! :laugh: We need to immortalize that on Xenopedia!
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 26, 2019, 05:22:24 PM
The Yautja Bachelor Party Theory! :laugh: We need to immortalize that on Xenopedia!
CANON!
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 26, 2019, 05:32:12 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 26, 2019, 05:22:24 PM
The Yautja Bachelor Party Theory! :laugh: We need to immortalize that on Xenopedia!
CANON!
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/ACxfcWKCJG5Us/giphy.gif)
The Predators are hunting for fun, using different weapons and ways of killing when it was unnecessary to do so,they were hunting for food or in defence. Wouldn't that all be sadistic? Or maybe they see themself being som much better than humans that it doesn't even count as killing. no one would call an exterminator a sadistic war criminal, but in reality he just committed mass genocide of innocent beings.
I think the difference is - as far as I'm aware - you don't get into bug extermination for the enjoyment of it.
Quote from: bobcunk on Mar 30, 2022, 02:13:18 AM
The Predators are hunting for fun, using different weapons and ways of killing when it was unnecessary to do so,they were hunting for food or in defence. Wouldn't that all be sadistic? Or maybe they see themself being som much better than humans that it doesn't even count as killing. no one would call an exterminator a sadistic war criminal, but in reality he just committed mass genocide of innocent beings.
Hunters don't tend to consider themselves as sadistic when hunting for sport (fun), and often have the "put it out of its misery" mentality once the prey is down. The difference I think is the enjoyment had at hunting, stalking, and killing your prey... versus torturing your prey.... and the torturing would be considered sadistic (as City Hunter did to Harrigan).
City Hunter does seem to have a bloodlust, he picks situations for the most carnage, placing himself in harms way even, a la the train and apartment. Its as if the cauldron of bloodshed he creates around himself is a drug.
That said, the way he leaps into fray makes me wonder if he comes from a Warrior Tribe rather than a Hunter discipline, for as I have pointed out before City prefer melee weapons to a Plasma Caster, while Jungle Hunter used his caster much more, like a true hunter firing from cloak and cover.
I could go along with that Warrior Tribe headcanon!
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 03, 2022, 01:49:15 PM
I could go along with that Warrior Tribe headcanon!
It definitely my headcanon now.
I also wondered if City Hunter was a Bad Blood seeking redemption, that if he found a worthy trophy he would be pardoned of his breeches of Yautja Honor. It could explain why the Elder was there, to observe and sentence judgement like an arbiter.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Apr 03, 2022, 07:45:41 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 03, 2022, 01:49:15 PM
I could go along with that Warrior Tribe headcanon!
It definitely my headcanon now.
I also wondered if City Hunter was a Bad Blood seeking redemption, that if he found a worthy trophy he would be pardoned of his breeches of Yautja Honor. It could explain why the Elder was there, to observe and sentence judgement like an arbiter.
Could be!
My headcanon goes the other way, that the Lost Predators are here to detain him, because proper hunters don't behave in such a reckless manner. :)
I do not have an answer for City Hunter but one thing is for sure...the Bad Blood Predator is a Bad Blood lol.
I guess my interpretation of the City Hunter was really out there. I always thought he was a really good guy.
I assumed the initial batch of skinned bodies served as a larder for the Predators, except that CH's got confiscated by Gary Busey as evidence. So instead of eating dishonorable or boring kills like stray animals (ala Hunting Grounds), it chose to eat meat from the already slaughtered cattle in the freezer unit at great personal discomfort.
I also assumed CH was legit trying to save Danny Boy from the fall, until Danny drew his gun. The context of the "Want some candy?" line made it seem like the Predator learned this line as a way to offer gifts. So the cemetery scene felt like CH was presenting Harrigan with a keepsake of Danny's as a gift. CH then uses the line again on Jerry when offering him a highly honorable death, prizing him above everyone else in the entire subway.
Plus, choosing to self-destruct so early when it still had some fight left makes me think CH was eager to uphold any honor codes its clan might of had.
But I don't know how to feel about CH anymore after reading this thread and seeing all this behind the scenes material saying that the City Hunter is actually a cruel and unusual killer. :(
I considered the City Hunter to be a Young Blood and not a Bad Blood.