Bullets.

[Xhan]

Because the people making the movie said so?

Did you not notice the Queen crest on the back of her head?

then they should have said so in their film. they had every chance to.

the people making Alien would have told you that the alien can turn someone into an egg... but that isn't acknowledged in any of the other films because it wasn't shown in the first film. Giger would have told you that fire couldn't kill it... except we all know it can.

Cameron ignored the intentions of the film makers behind the first one... ignored the deleted scenes... and stayed true to what was on screen because that's all anyone really knew for a fact.

if i was making a third AvP movie i'd totally ignore all that nonsense with the predalien impregnating pregnant women. heck i'd find a way to explain it away so it could never happen ever again.

whatever their intentions were is irrelevant to what this game or anything else can and can't do with the universe. we have the final film as it stands (unfortunately). whatever they tried to do... is all kind of secondary to the actual film which fails to establish any such thing.

that kind of stuff is interesting background info, and until something contradicts it, if you like it you can take it as true, but 'the film makers intentions' don't meet my criteria for uncontradictable canon.

They did. Chet was PURPOSEFULLY CHANGED from her original design sculpt to have a have a wedge head, and the two makers and the FX department have stated so flatly. Under your line of logic Lambert was killed by the Alien grabbing a sousaphone and playing "do you think I'm sexy" until her head exploded, because it's not implicit by Ripley saying to the audience exactly HOW she died.

As there is no subsequent film nor depiction of Predator mating to contradict, secondly Preds coming out of AvP1 removed cryo seen had peepees, and they wear metal underwear, kind of odd don't ya think?

[plagiarize]

They did. Chet was PURPOSEFULLY CHANGED from her original design sculpt to have a have a wedge head, and the two makers and the FX department have stated so flatly.

i missed all the debates when it came out... but the film doesn't flatly state that the predalien is female and a queen. it's the first pred alien we've seen in the films and it looks different to any alien we've seen before, and it does things no other alien has done before too.

yes, the film makers have said it was their intention to establish that she was a queen, and i'm not going to argue with you if you want to think the predalien was, but i'm just saying that since the film didn't establish it, it doesn't make it a FACT that the predalien was a queen.

in Friday the 13th, it was the intention that Jason popping out of the water at the end was just a dream sequence... but it wasn't clear from the film. the sequel established that it WASN'T a dream sequence. that's all i'm saying. i'm not saying the predalien can't have been a queen, just that the film didn't establish it. if i got to make the next AvP movie, just as Cameron changed the intended but unestablished life cycle, i would get to decide if the predalien was a queen or not. that's all i'm saying.

if you want to use 'until we know different' as a rule, i have no problems with that. just don't think that makes people that think differently wrong. anyone telling you though that it wasn't a queen in AvP:R clearly has less evidence to back up that position.

i'm just saying it wasn't ESTABLISHED. we clear?

Under your line of logic Lambert was killed by the Alien grabbing a sousaphone and playing "do you think I'm sexy" until her head exploded, because it's not implicit by Ripley saying to the audience exactly HOW she died.

by my logic i think that it isn't exactly clear how Lambert died, but if someone was arguing it happened by sousaphone, i'd think them pretty crazy.

As there is no subsequent film nor depiction of Predator mating to contradict, secondly Preds coming out of AvP1 removed cryo seen had peepees, and they wear metal underwear, kind of odd don't ya think?

extended cuts, alternate scenes, etc etc, these often contradict what was in the theatrical. we might like the alternate scenes. we might not. we might like the stuff in the comics and games and books... but it's always seemed to be the way that when it comes to the new film makers making a sequel, that they only hold themselves to what was actually established on screen in the previous theatrical cuts.

all i'm getting at with that, is that if something wasn't established in the film a subsequent movie can change or contradict it, and if something was established and a subsequent movie wants to contradict it, that it'll need to explain why it's inconsistent. if it isn't contradicted, a subsequent movie could establish it... but i think the Alien movie continuity is a pretty good example that the only stuff that's unquestionable is the stuff we saw on screen in the theatricals.

[Xhan]

So Ricky the pizza ninja is supposed to SAY OMG THROUGH MY POWERS OF DETECTION THAT IS OBVIOUSLY A QUEEN CAUSE I CAN SEE SOME SHOPPED PIXELS THERE...

right.

Aliens and Preds do not speak 21st century American English, and no one has ever seen them before. Do explain how they need to make it any more obvious when they say flatly on camera in interviews and in print "Chet is a Queen" and she has a giant f**king TRIANGLE on her head.

[Chris!(($$))!]

Preds do not speak 21st century American English

The Pred in P2 said "Mother f**ker" and then the "Elder" Pred said "Take it" But I know what you mean.

[Xhan]

Preds do not speak 21st century American English

The Pred in P2 said "Mother f**ker" and then the "Elder" Pred said "Take it" But I know what you mean.

Repeating without context hardly qualifies as speaking, and neither Dutch nor Danny is around to provide cultural nuance, and Wolf isn't inclined to say anything.

[Drone23]

 The Predators can speak English this is backed by the Predator "Finishing" Danny Glover's quote " You are one Ugly" and without him finishing the sentence the Predator does.

The Predator blatantly said "Take it" as you mentioned, thus confirming they speak English, he told him in his own language to "Take it" what more proof do you need? maybe recite the national anthem, then we will believe it.

Predators "From Lore" have had advanced technology I.E FTL travel, invisibility, energy weaponry,sense before man, so why would it be so hard for such an advanced species to learn such a basic dialect, just like every kid on this planet can learn and understand, so can the universes most advanced species.

Just sayin...

Do remember, I wouldn't expect every Predator to speak enlglish, just those who had extensive hunting trips on Earth.

[Xhan]

We're talking about avp:r, by all means throw up a scene where Wolf quotes Hamlet.

had advanced technology

There's no evidence they biult any of it, and a race which sees in infrared is going to have a very hard time developing micro fabrication and advanced optics without help.

[plagiarize]

Aliens and Preds do not speak 21st century American English, and no one has ever seen them before. Do explain how they need to make it any more obvious when they say flatly on camera in interviews and in print "Chet is a Queen" and she has a giant f**king TRIANGLE on her head.

i'm not saying it's easy to get something like that across... i'm just pointing out that they don't in the film itself. all that's in the film is this supposed giant triangle which i totally don't see personally.

if they wanted to establish it was a queen they could have made the predalien look, i don't know, more like a queen?



why is there a debate about it? why do theories abound? why is this thing that is obviously a queen doing something we've never seen a queen do in laying eggs inside people with it's tongue?

i'm just saying that they can state their intentions all they like, but the predalien we saw was so distinct from a queen as to arguably something completely unique. no egg sack. much smaller. completely different crest. mouth much more like a regular aliens than a queen. pipes rather than spikes. one set of knees rather than two....

and i'm not saying you're wrong. i'm just saying that even if the intention was to establish it as a queen, most people who see the film have no idea it's supposed to be a queen so they failed to establish it.

so if other people want to have different theories, why not? like i keep saying, the intention of the original alien was the it went egg -> facehugger -> drone in a cycle that completes when the drone captures a human and morphs them into another egg... but the film didn't establish that, so the sequels and everything else (including the opinions of fans that didn't like the egg morphing idea prior to Aliens being made) weren't beholden to it and did something completely different even though the filmmakers of the original intended the egg morphing route. but i'm sure you'll keep ignoring this point.

it's the soundest theory that it's a queen... but the evidence that exists WITHIN the fiction is tenous at best. 'i can see a triangle head and the queen sort of had a triangular ish head'. sure, it didn't have a queen mouth. or the extra queen arms. or the size of the queen. but that's all irrelevant right?

[Kimarhi]

Chet was mentioned as being a queen by the crew members, just a young one that hadn't settled down into a nesting procedure yet because of the enemies in her wake.

Of course, like any canon material in the wake of this series its up to the eye of the beholder as to what you accept as your nonfiction regarding the studio's take on canonicity.

The theatricals have all been mentioned as being "it" regarding canon before the DC's and AC's.  Cameron said he preferred his dc of the movie and its the way it was meant to be seen (so do we follow it even though I think the additions add nothing to the story and actually serve to lessen the tension of the film), you have a low level exec mentioning the comic series could be canon (even though its not even feasible or sensical), as well as games trying to worm their way into the standalone series movie storylines (AvP1 and 2 mentioning the 426 jockey telemetry as finding 1201 as well as AvP3 mentioning Ripley). 

I see where your coming from as I had the exact same stance on the subject awhile ago and got into an epic (NERD!) argument about it with a fellow poster here on imdb, but have sense adopted some of his stances.

If it doesn't conflict with other movies in the series, I'll use crew thoughts and opinions as a reference.

[Hive Tyrant]

I don't give a good goddamn about what the crewmembers have or haven't said. Did I listen to the commentary? Did I watch interviews? No, I only saw the movie, which was so awful I didn't want to have to endure endulging myself in anything related to it. At NO point in the WHOLE film did it ever become clear to me that Chet was anything but a Predalien. A triangle? Please. That movie was too dark to make out ANY details whatsoever. The only reason I know what the Predalien fully looks like is because of the toys and models that were released that depicted the whole thing. And even so, it looks NOTHING like a Queen.

So I automatically assumed that any Predalien can shove his babies down the throat of humans. I didn't have any other Predalien to compare it with. Is that such a weird conclusion?

[S.Y.L]

Under your line of logic Lambert was killed by the Alien grabbing a sousaphone and playing "do you think I'm sexy" until her head exploded

Under your line of logic... that would`ve been awesome.
plausible too, that song`ll do that to ya.

[plagiarize]

If it doesn't conflict with other movies in the series, I'll use crew thoughts and opinions as a reference.

feel free to. like i say it's the best supported theory and it doesn't contradict anything, so if you want to take the stance of 'until it's contradicted i'll believe it' i have no problems with that. i just don't think it's the kind of thing where you can say someone is wrong for thinking otherwise is all.

it's always seemed to me that filmmakers only go off of what was in the other films rather than the intentions of them. this franchise doesn't have an overlord like say Star Wars has with George Lucas to say 'oh this book and this video game are canon, but the star wars christmas special isn't'.

i love a lot of the extra stuff. i loved the early Dark Horse alien comics when they had Newt, Hicks and Bishop, but when Fincher came to make Alien 3, I'm personally glad he had the freedom to do whatever the hell he wanted so long as it didn't contradict the earlier movies. Cameron's intentions for those characters all went out the window and Fincher was then in charge of where things went.

and then they threw him off the film and totally changed around his film in significant ways that effected the canon (preventing the queen face hugger from becoming canon but cementing the notion that aliens take on traits of their hosts since the alien in 3 is much more dog in design than ox).

i'll openly admit that i prefer to have as little as possible considered canon, because i want whoever makes the next film in the series to have as much creative freedom as possible.

[Xhan]

Aliens and Preds do not speak 21st century American English, and no one has ever seen them before. Do explain how they need to make it any more obvious when they say flatly on camera in interviews and in print "Chet is a Queen" and she has a giant f**king TRIANGLE on her head.

i'm not saying it's easy to get something like that across... i'm just pointing out that they don't in the film itself. all that's in the film is this supposed giant triangle which i totally don't see personally.

if they wanted to establish it was a queen they could have made the predalien look, i don't know, more like a queen?
http://hotblood.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/10-avp-r-predalien-vs-predator_diorama.jpg


why is there a debate about it? why do theories abound? why is this thing that is obviously a queen doing something we've never seen a queen do in laying eggs inside people with it's tongue?

i'm just saying that they can state their intentions all they like, but the predalien we saw was so distinct from a queen as to arguably something completely unique. no egg sack. much smaller. completely different crest. mouth much more like a regular aliens than a queen. pipes rather than spikes. one set of knees rather than two....

and i'm not saying you're wrong. i'm just saying that even if the intention was to establish it as a queen, most people who see the film have no idea it's supposed to be a queen so they failed to establish it.

so if other people want to have different theories, why not? like i keep saying, the intention of the original alien was the it went egg -> facehugger -> drone in a cycle that completes when the drone captures a human and morphs them into another egg... but the film didn't establish that, so the sequels and everything else (including the opinions of fans that didn't like the egg morphing idea prior to Aliens being made) weren't beholden to it and did something completely different even though the filmmakers of the original intended the egg morphing route. but i'm sure you'll keep ignoring this point.

it's the soundest theory that it's a queen... but the evidence that exists WITHIN the fiction is tenous at best. 'i can see a triangle head and the queen sort of had a triangular ish head'. sure, it didn't have a queen mouth. or the extra queen arms. or the size of the queen. but that's all irrelevant right?

So you've seen a mid growth queen in one of the movies? Pix please?

I believe I've already stated there is no subsequent movie, so there is no standing contradiction to the Queen's morphology.

You're perfectly welcome to disregard whatever you'd like.

If you expect to get something meaningful out of an extended examination of it, you might consider divorcing objective from subjective, kind of like what you've failed to do in the Pred attributes thread.

As far as my opinion goes AvP:R and EVERYTHING and I do mean EVERYTHING about it with the sole exception of Brian Tyler's work and the opening titles about it is absolute crap, that doesn't obviate discussing it in an objective light without delving into personal bias.

[plagiarize]

So you've seen a mid growth queen in one of the movies? Pix please?

my point was a simple one. neither of us have seen a 'mid growth' queen. neither of us know what one looks like either... i was just answering your question asking what more they could have done to establish it as a queen. there was a lot they could of done visually to make it look like one, because I think we both acknowledge the language issues (and of course that the humans in AvP:R are all encountering them for the first time).

could what we saw be what a mid growth queen looks like? of course it could. i was just responding answering your question by pointing out many of the distinctive visual features that are unique to the queen that they could have given to the predalien.

I believe I've already stated there is no subsequent movie, so there is no standing contradiction to the Queen's morphology.

and i don't disagree. i'm just pointing out that a subsequent movie doesn't have to stay true to the intentions of the previous film makers, only what actually made it on screen. like i said, if you want to go the route of 'until contradicted' that's fine. i just don't think it makes it canon is all.

You're perfectly welcome to disregard whatever you'd like.

If you expect to get something meaningful out of an extended examination of it, you might consider divorcing objective form subjective, kind of like what you've failed to do in the Pred attributes thread.

the base attributes are undeniable. whether or not they SHOULD be the way they are is subjective.

whether players should be FORCED to play in character or not, is not an objective opinion, and that's mostly where we disagreed. i didn't mind Predators having an edge in a face to face confrontation because it encouraged Aliens players to act like Aliens, you didn't like it because you felt Aliens shouldn't avoid face to face confrontation out of fear.

totally subjective as is 'are the predators too powerful in melee combat'. are the predators more powerful? objectively true... but as soon as you put the word 'too' in the question, any answer will be subjective.

As for my opinion goes AvP:R and EVERYTHING and I do mean EVERYTHING about it with the sole exception of Brian Tyler's work and the opening titles about it is absolute crap, that doesn't obviate discussing it in an objective light without delving into personal bias.

it's subjective whether or not the film makers intentions should be considered canon. we can't really have a fully objective conversation about something like that. how would that go?

'They intended her to be a queen'.
'Did they? I didn't know that.'
'Yes here is the interview.'

what is there to discuss?

i personally love debate, and i find you a very eloquent poster with very strong opinions that you usually back up with solid reasoning. what i don't like is someone who tries to say 'there is no room for debate here' as if there is no subjectivity in these things.

like i say, the position that it was a queen is the best supported argument and it is contradicted by absolutely nothing... so if you want to believe that for as long as it goes uncontradicted (and it probably always will) that's just fine. but what i don't think it's right to do, is to tell people with a different opinion that they are wrong.

that's all.

and yes, AvP:R was dreck. though I guess I see one more minor redeeming feature than you (totally agree on the score) in that i think you could edit it down to a fairly entertaining short movie if you edit out all the bits that don't feature the predator. they did a good job in characterising Wolf and conveying his feelings and thought processes given that he had to do everything through body language. whether that was the direction or Ian Whyte I could only really guess.