Strange Shapes

Started by Valaquen, Oct 19, 2012, 03:40:59 AM

Author
Strange Shapes (Read 68,726 times)

SM

SM

#30
If they never showed the Alien running untroubled through fire, then there was nothing for Cameron to retcon.

Quote(if it could take being heated by molten metal then the fire seen previously would be nothing to it).

We don't know what temperature QCT burns at, but if David is to be believed it's nasty stuff.  If it's similar to gasoline then it combusts around 280C, and can heat up to over 1000C.  Acetylene is up to 2300C.  Napalm from a flamethrower is between 800C and 1200C.

Lead melts at a relatively cooler temp of 327C, and while the Alien withstood it, given a choice it wouldn't have gone swimming in it.


Valaquen - Your recent bit about Weyland/ Bishop.  It was Charles Bishop Weyland; Karl Bishop Weyland was in the last AvP video game.  A trading card named the Alien3 Bishop as Michael Bishop.  He pops up as the final boss in Alien3 - The Gun too.

Valaquen

Valaquen

#31
Quote from: SM on Oct 22, 2012, 10:15:45 PM
Valaquen - Your recent bit about Weyland/ Bishop.  It was Charles Bishop Weyland; Karl Bishop Weyland was in the last AvP video game.  A trading card named the Alien3 Bishop as Michael Bishop.  He pops up as the final boss in Alien3 - The Gun too.
Aye, I know - I mentioned Karl right after I mentioned the expanded universe, I meant to point to the AVP game, not Charles from the movie. I'll edit it to make that clearer.

EDIT: About Alien3 - The Gun, is he treated as human there? Thanks.

EGM1966

EGM1966

#32
Quote from: SM on Oct 22, 2012, 10:15:45 PM
If they never showed the Alien running untroubled through fire, then there was nothing for Cameron to retcon.

Quote(if it could take being heated by molten metal then the fire seen previously would be nothing to it).

We don't know what temperature QCT burns at, but if David is to be believed it's nasty stuff.  If it's similar to gasoline then it combusts around 280C, and can heat up to over 1000C.  Acetylene is up to 2300C.  Napalm from a flamethrower is between 800C and 1200C.

Lead melts at a relatively cooler temp of 327C, and while the Alien withstood it, given a choice it wouldn't have gone swimming in it.


Valaquen - Your recent bit about Weyland/ Bishop.  It was Charles Bishop Weyland; Karl Bishop Weyland was in the last AvP video game.  A trading card named the Alien3 Bishop as Michael Bishop.  He pops up as the final boss in Alien3 - The Gun too.
The one thing I forgot to mention was that in Alien, not only did the creature show no fear of fire in attacking Dallas (if I remember while Dallas doesn't get to try and zap it the ignite flame is still going and visible in shot when it pounces) but the film clearly shows that when it climbs into the engine nacelle it is simply blown out and not actually destroyed - i.e. it survived being blasted by a spaceship engine and didn't even slow down when being shot.  The fact Ash was happy to suggest fire makes it clear to me it was no threat to the alien - he would never have mentioned it otherwise.

TBH my view is that Ridely Scott had no issue with the idea of an almost indestructible Alien and played it that way - you never got the sense in Alien anything could stop or hurt it.  Cameron is much more down to earth guy it seems to me and portrayed the creature much closer to an animal and, while deadly, ultimately not that durable and relatively easy to kill.

From that point the alien creature was handled very differently.  To go with something like Aliens it had to be kill-able - but in Alien the opposite certainly felt true with the final resolution merely being the creature expelled from the ship into deep space rather than clearly and definitely killed.

Of course each film to an extent does its own thing so it's a moot point now in some ways - the creature changes shape and abilities to suit each film and there is no clear consistency overall I'd say.

SiL

SiL

#33
Stepping on a Lego brick won't kill me. I won't run from a Lego brick. But I do avoid stepping on them if I can, because it still freakin' hurts.

Valaquen

Valaquen

#34
Quote from: EGM1966 on Oct 23, 2012, 09:43:19 AM
[TBH my view is that Ridely Scott had no issue with the idea of an almost indestructible Alien and played it that way - you never got the sense in Alien anything could stop or hurt it.  Cameron is much more down to earth guy it seems to me and portrayed the creature much closer to an animal and, while deadly, ultimately not that durable and relatively easy to kill.

From that point the alien creature was handled very differently.  To go with something like Aliens it had to be kill-able - but in Alien the opposite certainly felt true with the final resolution merely being the creature expelled from the ship into deep space rather than clearly and definitely killed.

Of course each film to an extent does its own thing so it's a moot point now in some ways - the creature changes shape and abilities to suit each film and there is no clear consistency overall I'd say.
Everyone involved the film approached the Alien as something that could be killed, but not something you wouldn't dare to. Scott said the Alien seemed indestructible in relation to humans; it lived to reproduce and once this goal was attained it would die. They also scripted and storyboarded the thing being disintegrated in the jets, but as Scott said, they were "filming one-for-one" and couldn't really do it; the Narcissus was thrown together on a shoestring on the Nostromo bridge set, with one day to shoot everything, and was done essentially on a first shot basis.

I finally pulled my finger out and did this: http://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/23/space-truckin-the-nostromo/

SM

SM

#35
QuoteEDIT: About Alien3 - The Gun, is he treated as human there? Thanks.

Impossible to tell.  When he gets shot it seems the blood splatter sprites from the Aliens are re-used so they're yellowy-green.

QuoteThe one thing I forgot to mention was that in Alien, not only did the creature show no fear of fire in attacking Dallas (if I remember while Dallas doesn't get to try and zap it the ignite flame is still going and visible in shot when it pounces)

The incinerator is lit, but pointing away from the Alien.  And considering it's position, it's got nowhere to retreat to, so of course it's going to attack.

Gates

Gates

#36
Yes..! More Alien stuff to read...awesome blog man...

Xenomorphine

Xenomorphine

#37
I think it's wise to avoid assumptions of actual fear. I've often said that the Queen's aversion to fire might simply be due to sensory overload - sensitivity to thermal extremes could be used to supplement hunting techniques. Whether or not they'd literally see heat signatures is open to debate, but they might still sense the direction of where a slight difference in heat or cold could be coming from (here on Earth, rattlesnakes have heat-sensitive pits near their eyes to detect prey, but nobody knows if they somehow superimpose that data on their eyes or just sense the direction the heat's coming from).

A lot like if you're wearing night vision gear and a sudden flare of light would blind you. Doesn't mean it's in any way physically painful. Just that you have a reason to try and avoid it.

If so, then perhaps the Queen's reaction should be perceived as not fearful, but one of annoyance. She certainly seems angered when the welding torch is being used in her face.

I've speculated in the past that this line of reasoning might be why Newt's tracker was removed and discarded in the nest; it could have been sending out a signal the creatures were detecting and wanted rid of.

Could be a clue as to how they were able to sense where the Marines were residing, many miles away and on what level, at the film's start. Or how the original creature knew where Dallas was in the shafts, both horizontally and vertically.

Amusingly, this could also mean that things like motion trackers might actually be an Alien equivalent of holding up a big neon sign saying "FREE PREY HERE". :)

Out of interest, Val, I forget where, but isn't there an article you've penned where it references O'Bannon speculating the Aliens are meant to be stranded "blood relatives" of Cthulu's family tree?

Valaquen

Valaquen

#38
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Oct 25, 2012, 05:14:50 AM
Out of interest, Val, I forget where, but isn't there an article you've penned where it references O'Bannon speculating the Aliens are meant to be stranded "blood relatives" of Cthulu's family tree?
Oh aye, he mentions it in his Something Perfectly Disgusting article. The article it was quoted in hasn't been restored yet, and I can't rummage for it at the moment. Will find it asap.

To add to the fire debate, in a scripted sequence where Dallas actually uses the flamethrower on the Alien ... the creature just waltzes through the flame. Image from the script has been added to the relevant article.

wmmvrrvrrmm

wmmvrrvrrmm

#39
Thanks for the information about the move

Valaquen

Valaquen

#40
Quote from: wmmvrrvrrmm on Oct 25, 2012, 10:03:47 AM
Thanks for the information about the move
I think wordpress is wonderful. Blogger was a nightmare most of the time. You should try it out! And xeno_alpha too.

EGM1966

EGM1966

#41
Quote from: SM on Oct 23, 2012, 10:09:19 PM
QuoteEDIT: About Alien3 - The Gun, is he treated as human there? Thanks.

Impossible to tell.  When he gets shot it seems the blood splatter sprites from the Aliens are re-used so they're yellowy-green.

QuoteThe one thing I forgot to mention was that in Alien, not only did the creature show no fear of fire in attacking Dallas (if I remember while Dallas doesn't get to try and zap it the ignite flame is still going and visible in shot when it pounces)

The incinerator is lit, but pointing away from the Alien.  And considering it's position, it's got nowhere to retreat to, so of course it's going to attack.
What - it's in a position to retreat the very way it came.  It had crept directly towards Dallas in the proceeding shots (shown by the tracker) and was waiting below him.  If it didn't like fire all it had to do was retreat back the way it came - it's not backed into a corner and if it was then it would be a continuity error given the its movements shown on the tracker.  Again I'd note that despite Dallas firing the flame thrower multiple times and clearly having it on him the alien wasn't in the least put off and it's clear that Ash wouldn't suggest anything that actually would hurt the alien - in context he throws the crew a bone of hope knowing in advance the flamethrowers will be ineffectual in deterring the alien which of course is what happens.

It's pretty clear to me that in Alien nothing is actually shown as bothering it that much and it even features Ash flat out telling the crew they can't kill it.  The general tone of Alien is of an inability to destroy, hurt or outsmart the alien.  Obviously when Cameron (with guidance from Hill, Giler, etc) took the franchise in the direction of combat the alien had to become kill-able and I always though it was cute of Cameron to have the flamethrowers and reference Alien as much as he did - but the reaction of the alien to anything is pretty inconsistent across the films and any fear or fire is one of those inconsistencies judging by Alien.

Gates

Gates

#42
Quoteif it was then it would be a continuity error given the its movements shown on the tracker.

I always assumed it was moving in a tunnel below the location it got Dallas, then climbed up and waited for him there...

SM

SM

#43
QuoteWhat - it's in a position to retreat the very way it came.  It had crept directly towards Dallas in the proceeding shots (shown by the tracker) and was waiting below him.  If it didn't like fire all it had to do was retreat back the way it came - it's not backed into a corner and if it was then it would be a continuity error given the its movements shown on the tracker.

If we accept that the tracker's representation makes sense - which it doesn't - what I was getting it is the Alien is just sitting there.  If Dallas started flaming it, I think it would've attacked him as a quicker option rather than retreating and getting flamed over and over as it goes back the way it came.

Gates

Gates

#44
It didn't have its back against a wall..?

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