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Is discovered planet in Covenant actually The Engineer's planet? The race David exterminated doesn't look exactly the same like Engineer's from Prometheus. No pale white skin, no black eyes. Their city doesn't look technologically advanced either. It's ancient Greek and Roman alike. Docking ship floating above the city is the only technology that resembles the technology used by Engineers in Prometheus.

Are "Engineers" in Covenant another "seed-race" that the real Engineers "planted"?

My thread was inspired by Twin Perfect video (21:59)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZnKrvOyN6M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZnKrvOyN6M)

Prior to the film's release, I was under the impression that these beings were another "creation" race, a la humanity on Earth.

Ridley is of the mindset that they were actual Engineers, though, so that is where my mind now lies.

I think those are an other creation race that didn't fail like us. It's like Walter and David, we are David, they are Walter.

As far as the production was concerned, they were Engineers. It was their homeworld.

It is the Engineers no question.

Is it really? It's not explained in the movie (I know that Ridley says it's Engineers planet) but there is one rule I follow while watching a movie: if it's not on the screen or isn't mentioned in the film (not interviews as they're not part of the canon) then it doesn't exist. Things can and do change during the process and you never know what Scott will bring in the future. Didn't he mentioned somewhere that Engineers will be involved in the next movie?

IIRC, they were referred to as "Engineers" in the script as well.

Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 16, 2021, 04:13:40 PM
Didn't he mentioned somewhere that Engineers will be involved in the next movie?

He did.

As far as I'm concerned though, Scott's intention here is that what we watched play out in Covenant is David eradicating the Engineers on their homeworld, so until another project comes out that invalidates that, that's what we have here. There's still definitely room to say that there are more Engineers out there in the galaxy (perhaps on other installations like LV-223), or that these guys were some other created race rather than proper Engineers, but until something actually states it as such, I'm inclined to stick with Scott's intentions here.

Hmm they had to name them somehow in the script. I still believe that if the third movie happened we gonna meet proper Engineers or it's just my wishful thinking.

In my head I kind of rationalize it that the Engineers in Covenant have been all but forgotten by the more "perfect" members of their race, as the more "godlike" Engineers (like those seen in Prometheus) left the homeworld long ago and the stragglers on Planet 4 have since been withering away, losing their hold in the galaxy, and dying off - with David then putting the final nail in their coffin as he eradicates them. That parallels nicely with what David's thoughts on humanity, too: "They are a dying species, grasping for resurrection. So they are leaving the earth forever. But their power is an illusion. They don't deserve to start again, and I'm not going to let them."

I do believe that there are more Engineers out there, though. Like what we saw in Prometheus, or the Space Jockey in Alien - beings that are further evolved, to varying degrees, beyond the humanoid forms in Covenant (almost certainly due to varying degrees of experimentation on themselves with the pathogen).

Yeah, I can agree with your argumentation.

I hope they gonna bring more Engineers and their lore in the third movie (if it happens) as I find it the most interesting aspect of Prometheus/Covenant. They should expand on that much more because what we have seen so far is just a surface.

If we do see them again, I hope it's only in the context of their precursors, The Pilots.

Otherwise I, for one, hope David wiped them all out.

As that Chariots of the Gods stuff's not my cup of tea at all, I find it ridiculous at best, and insulting at worst.

And if they try to use The Pathogen to create biomechanical exoskeletons for themselves it might just be the straw that breaks the camel's back for me with the Prequels.

I can tell you're not a fan ;D

It's dumb.

I can get behind it within David's story, of being an immortal artificial intelligence, and disappointed that the so called Gods amount to nothing more than mortal men once again.

Yeah, I'm in a similar boat - I'm not thrilled about Prometheus' revelations about the Engineers on its own two feet, but I do dig the idea within the context of David's narrative and the ripple effect caused by the endless cycle of creations supplanting creators that Covenant extrapolated from Prometheus.

I don't find it dump. At the end of the day Alien universe is sci-fi horror that started as B movie and Engineers bring something new (even though it's somehow cheesy) to the table. As Ridley said it before: "the beast is cooked".

The beast may be cooked, but Prometheus' ideas were only half-baked... until Covenant came around and gave them the proper seasoning and turned the whole prequel enterprise into a rather delicious meal. ;)

They still remain half baked for me though. Studio changed its mind and turned into another direction, hence Covenant instead of being Prometheus 2 is hybrid of Alien and Prometheus.

Alien Covenant saved Prometheus for me.

And part of that's making the Engineers extinct.

They will be back ;)

Before Covenant happened I expected all the engineers on their homeworld to be dead already - I really don't see how you could make a film with all those engineers still alive. I thought it was a fun twist when they were still alive but ended up being killed by David anyway. I'd like to see them return in some way though, as Ridley suggested when he talked about the third prequel. As long as they look better than in Covenant  :laugh:

Maybe different careers and jobs mean different cultures, different looks, different outfits, and maybe even different biology. They are "Engineers" and perhaps the soldiers or planters use their science to alter their genetics.

Or maybe they could become like the Guild Navigators of Dune, that is; Engineers are destined to become the Space Jockey after altering their bodies with bioengineering.


However that sounds horrible. Something like "There is no intelligent alien life in space yet, but humans are going to evolve into intelligent alien life".  :laugh:

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Quote from: Andrea90 on Mar 16, 2021, 02:53:43 PM
I think those are an other creation race that didn't fail like us. It's like Walter and David, we are David, they are Walter.

Rule number 1 to become the favorite of your forerunners:

Never crucify one of them.  :laugh:


But I actually like that idea. They were satisfied with the people of Planet 4, who not only look more like their creators, but also live the life that Engies wanted for us. Daddy isues of biblical proportions, but cool in my book. 8)

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Quote from: Trash Queen on Mar 16, 2021, 05:34:25 PM
If we do see them again, I hope it's only in the context of their precursors, The Pilots.

If there's even a pilot on this, I hope it's juts one being and not a civilization. Something unique and rare like The Traveler fron Destiny.


Edit ~

I find this cool fanart.  8)

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 16, 2021, 09:10:32 PM
Or maybe they could become like the Guild Navigators of Dune, that is; Engineers are destined to become the Space Jockey after altering their bodies with bioengineering.

https://i.ibb.co/K5CfnYh/navigator.webp

https://i.ibb.co/CHTHbw4/spacejockeyhead341.jpg

I'm inclined to think something along these lines, actually - and if that does wind up being the case, it is easy to see the biomechanical exo-suit of Prometheus' Final Engineer as one step along that evolutionary chain, if they do go that route.

Something along the lines of this, with the Covenant Engineers as the lowest of their ranks that were left behind on their homeworld:

(https://film-grab.com/wp-content/uploads/photo-gallery/Alien_Covenant032.jpg?bwg=1569329064)

Meanwhile the "peak" specimens (perhaps they peaked naturally, or perhaps through augmentation) like the one seen at the start of Prometheus went off to seed the galaxy with life:

(https://film-grab.com/wp-content/uploads/photo-gallery/05%20(825).jpg?bwg=1547297004)

Over the years those peak specimens started experimenting on themselves (with black goo?) and grafting biomechanics to their bodies to further themselves:

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9kAw1rSl.jpg&hash=43142c5d7abf67586277a4d53583151a9bed1df4)

Which eventually gets out of hand and leads to evolution gone awry, in forms such as this:

(https://film-grab.com/wp-content/uploads/photo-gallery/image013%20(1).jpg?bwg=1547142832)

Unless, of course, David is the Space Jockey. :D

Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 16, 2021, 05:54:14 PM
At the end of the day Alien universe is sci-fi horror that started as B movie

roughly 50% of this website and forum boards are about this so called B movie universe...

Myself dont buy that the planet david came to is their homeplanet as it lacks the structure and look of what we saw in prometheus and they dont have any spaceships or anything advanced? Only that hovering thing over the city that does nothing and is gone when the covenant ship shows up, their homes are technology wise what we had around year 1000 on earth, cant see them being space traveling species.

In the video and others where its more discussed that its a planet they seeded and they like how they turned out and lets them live under the eye of that ship/hovering thing and what is better for David than to show up and delete what they see as good species? Then I can see why the engineers will be back in the next movie when they discover what happened to one of their experiments.

IF it was their home planet it was very weakly defended and where are all ships that should be around in orbit and elsewhere, should be full of them? Space traveling species cant just be of low technoloy population who happens to have advanced ships ona  different planet and be stranded on their own homeplanet, just dumb if so.

I can buy the theory nightmare presents that they ended up splitting into two groups, the ones on the homeplanet who decided for a peaceful way of living and the other more scifi which seeds and experiment and ended up having the ships and all technology, leaving the homeworld for its own demise. Would explain why the population greeted david so highly as they hoped it was them coming back to make the civil war to an end and help them.

@Judge Death, watch Crossing the Plaza (Extended) (55s). It will answer some of your questions

Quote from: judge death on Mar 18, 2021, 02:25:01 AM
Only that hovering thing over the city that does nothing and is gone when the covenant ship shows up,

Motherjugger is crashed in the hills surrounding the city (I used filters so you can see clearly).


Here is a closer look.


Now about their tech-level, the script describes how in the city there are structures rotating in favor of solar movement. There is concept art for such structures and these can vaguely be seen during Crane's action sequence.


Also these motion sensors lights which appear to be levitating. I'm not sure about that last impresion though.

Still no explanation how it crashed nor why its only that one when a high tech civilistation easily should have lots more ships, and also: why do they have only one small city at that point? the whole planet should be full of engineers and towns for a civilistation of that tech they have.
David dropping the pathogen at the center of the one town they have is enough to wipe out the planet and no ships or defences of any kind escape or react, no engineers soldiers start to get into action etc, the ships and people on the other side of the planet should react to this?

Unless something like planet of the apes happened and that is litterly everything left of them which would explain the lack of pretty much anything a space traveling civilistation should have.

Or its one of the engineers species they created and colony on that planet which is very low tech which explains the lack of so much and they only have that tiny town.

Nice find and didnt see much of those objects and tech in the movie, but still it dont fit together with what a high tech civilistation demands to work compared to what we see they have. :P

Quote from: judge death on Mar 19, 2021, 12:08:34 AM
why do they have only one small city at that point? the whole planet should be full of engineers and towns for a civilistation of that tech they have.

(...)

Or its one of the engineers species they created and colony on that planet which is very low tech which explains the lack of so much and they only have that tiny town.

Exactly my thoughts.

The scene in which David escorts the crew to the cathedral was a bit longer. The delected extract shows the crew lighting up the hangar sublevel in the Plaza, where more Jugernauts can be seen.


However, I prefer the headcanon that they are a creation like us. But clearly Ridley Scott and the rest of the film crew conceived them to be Engineers in their home world. And when you read interviews with conceptual artists you realize that they were presenting an anachronistic utopian civilization. A culture that despite being able to travel through space, still prefer to live like ancient Greeks or whatever.

The advanced civilization living in an old fashioned way it's an old trope anyway; from modern folklore about Atlantis, pulp fiction magazines to Star Wars.

Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 19, 2021, 12:48:12 AM

Quote from: judge death on Mar 19, 2021, 12:08:34 AM
why do they have only one small city at that point? the whole planet should be full of engineers and towns for a civilistation of that tech they have.

(...)

Or its one of the engineers species they created and colony on that planet which is very low tech which explains the lack of so much and they only have that tiny town.

Exactly my thoughts.

That is a curious detail without a doubt. Even if there were other colonies or facilities like those on LV-223, planet 4 was intended to be their capital world, regardless of whether we like the idea or not. And yet, it was just a small city on a small planet.

But they probably didn't put much thought into it, since Ridley wanted to move on from the Engineers to focus on David and the Alien.

Going to drop some Into Charybdis spoilers here, so don't open if you haven't read the book yet and want to remain unspoiled:

Spoiler

One of the most interesting elements of the book is the revelation that Hasanova actually is an Engineer outpost, a la LV-223. Now, Hasanova doesn't seem to be housing any living Engineers (as far as we know) but the very idea of seeing another such installation, even if it is just in expanded universe material so far, intrigues me immensely - and in terms of the films it does kind of send my mind racing, since anything on that scale done for a book is going to have to get some level of approval from 20th Century. This all makes me wonder what else the future may hold, for the Engineers and their fun little toys scattered throughout the galaxy...

[close]

Don't forget it looks like we'll be seeing one in Fireteam too!

I like to think the beginning of Prometheus is the seeding of Planet 4 rather than Earth

Quote from: David Weyland on Mar 23, 2021, 08:10:37 PM
I like to think the beginning of Prometheus is the seeding of Planet 4 rather than Earth

And the ship returned millions of years later to serve as a roof for their children (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=64831.0). Everyone lived happily until David's arrival.
.
Moral of the story ~ Never let your robot play the flute.

Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 16, 2021, 01:44:27 PM
Is discovered planet in Covenant actually The Engineer's planet? The race David exterminated doesn't look exactly the same like Engineer's from Prometheus. No pale white skin, no black eyes. Their city doesn't look technologically advanced either. It's ancient Greek and Roman alike. Docking ship floating above the city is the only technology that resembles the technology used by Engineers in Prometheus.

Are "Engineers" in Covenant another "seed-race" that the real Engineers "planted"?

My thread was inspired by Twin Perfect video (21:59)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZnKrvOyN6M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZnKrvOyN6M)

The behavior of the Engineers as not being "advanced" enough has been a complaint going back to "Prometheus".
Would advanced beings sacrifice themselves?

In "Covenant" we have similar complaints that an advanced society would never have architecture in their cities which doesn't look advanced compared with modern earth skyscrapers.

I don't accept any of those criticisms. As Ridley explained in an interview, he is taking sacrifice from the Mayan's civilization and applying it to a super advanced society.
As for old architecture, there are ancient buildings in several cities around our world, such as Florence or Venice, where people live in old buildings but they have advanced technology.

* Ridley understood something which has been missed by many fans of the Alien franchise. That the Xenomorphs as weapons are not that advanced.
They are biological creatures with some upgrades but they are not much more lethal than a grizzly bear combined with a spitting cobra.
- When Ridley was contemplating the meaning of the Space Jockey's civilization (in the "Alien" DVD commentary), he had to come to grips with this.

His description of super advanced tech combined with more primitive cultural aspects led Ridley to show us a hybrid  civilization. That it has carried over for millions of years ancient practices which appear less advanced.
* However, the important thing to remember is that our modern world has such hybrid societies combining ancient practices with advanced technology.

;)

Not much more lethal? Yeah... Right...  ::)

I wish the Engineers were a cult that worships another species.

(https://i.ibb.co/sPk8mmb/IMG-20210404-000635-111.jpg)

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Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 04, 2021, 12:34:24 AM
Not much more lethal? Yeah... Right...  ::)

Maybe he went too far in a few places. 

That's the one way you can get Ridley behind it.

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 04, 2021, 03:25:04 AM
I wish the Engineers were a cult that worships another species.

https://i.ibb.co/sPk8mmb/IMG-20210404-000635-111.jpg

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Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 04, 2021, 12:34:24 AM
Not much more lethal? Yeah... Right...  ::)

Maybe he went too far in a few places.

This would explain and fix so many issues with ridleys prometheus and to a degree covenant movies.

It certainly can make it better.

If O'Bannon thought of the Alien as a blood relative of the Yog-Sothoth (http://alienexplorations.blogspot.com/1979/09/dan-obannons-admiration-for-lovecraft.html), perhaps there is some rank of Great Ones further up the Lovecraftian hierarchy than derelict pilots and engineers that remain unseen? Humankind would be below their interest, of which the Company's careless regard for human life is a faint echo.

Just throw in something about Shub-Niggurath and her thousand young, jobs a goodun.

There is quite the pantheon, and I am just getting my feet wet...

Gods upon gods upon gods.

Wish Jon Spaiths and Lindelof would write a book or something with all their ideas on the Engineers.
Since there were already plans for on sequel (or more), they were planning on telling us more.
Alas...

Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 05, 2021, 10:25:25 PM
Gods upon gods upon gods.

Until you get to a primordial being that spawned more beings, before dying.
I'd be ok with that.

Quote from: TNF on Apr 04, 2021, 06:00:51 PM
If O'Bannon thought of the Alien as a blood relative of the Yog-Sothoth (http://alienexplorations.blogspot.com/1979/09/dan-obannons-admiration-for-lovecraft.html), perhaps there is some rank of Great Ones further up the Lovecraftian hierarchy than derelict pilots and engineers that remain unseen? Humankind would be below their interest, of which the Company's careless regard for human life is a faint echo.

Yes! I'd be delighted if it's revealed that Engineers aren't exactly the ultimate Old Ones. They don't need to explain too much anyway. Just take Predator 2 as an example: the Lost Tribe Ship, the trophy room, the Elder and the 1715 flintlock pistol. These are details that tell us the Predator has hunted many species and that it has been doing so for a long time. You can do something similar in a short prequel scene, where you tell the audience through details that there is something beyond the Engineer, and that is.

Quote from: judge death on Mar 19, 2021, 12:08:34 AM
Still no explanation how it crashed.

Correct. Ridley Scott's science fiction (not counting "The Martian") does not have multiple explanations. (For example like "Agents of Shield" or Star Trek.)
The juggernaut crashed in Covenant. I assume something on the planet caused that, like a defense.

Quote from: judge death on Mar 19, 2021, 12:08:34 AM
...a high tech civilistation easily should have lots more ships,

Not necessarily. All the ships could be away.
Notice that the population was clearly not afraid in Covenant. They were not expecting that some enemy/android took over one of their ships.

Quote from: judge death on Mar 19, 2021, 12:08:34 AM
why do they have only one small city at that point? the whole planet should be full of ... towns for a civilistation of that tech they have.

You are thinking in limited terms of a civilization that might last a few hundred to a 1000 years and then collapses due to over population, pollution, too much global warming.
- From "Prometheus" we know the Engineer civilization lasted at least millions of years and possibly a billion+ years.
- The Engineer planet civilization could have been sustainable there for eons (until David came). One small city indicates that it's population seems to be controlled.
Having a large wilderness around the planet indicates that this civilization is in harmony with its environment very long term. 

What about weapons manufacturing? It seems that was done on LV-223.

Quote from: judge death on Mar 19, 2021, 12:08:34 AM
David dropping the pathogen at the center of the one town they have is enough to wipe out the planet...

Yes. That shows how deadly the black goo is as a weapon. It can wipe out / alter the life on an entire planet.

Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 04, 2021, 12:34:24 AM
Not much more lethal? Yeah... Right...  ::)

Absolutely right. The xenomorphs by themselves have no ranged weapons. A shotgun can kill one of them. A group of unarmed prisoners can kill one of them. A woman with a flamethrower can kill Xenos.
- Imagine a modern military with planes, night vision (infrared), large bombs, missiles. They would easily wipe out thousands of xenos. 
- In AVP one nuke killed swarms of xenos. And the Predators kept xenos around for their war games under their control.

As a weapon the xenos are relatively primitive for a super advanced civilization. Scott understood that xenos were a weapon at least since the DVD release of "Alien".

;)

Quote from: Trash Queen on Mar 23, 2021, 05:38:54 PM
I agree the Drone's what you get with an Alien and human, the Runner's what you get with an Alien and animal, the PredAlien's what you get with an Alien and Predator, they all have an obvious trajectory, even if we do not quite understand every aspect.

I also do not see in any way that this comes across as something the Engineers or humanity might create.

We know Ridley Scott's understanding on it's influenced by our real world, and in that respect as he often likes to say, The Pathogen's got a logic to it of clearing out the meat as fast as possible and then die out so things can start again in a way the Alien does not.

I believe David's the one that instituted the Alien having black skin and something evocative of biomechanical beginnings, The Pathogen's always produces the opposite, white skin and nothing biomechanical present.

But even if that's revealed not to be the case, the fact the Alien's a rapist's part of the focal point of it's identity with or without a creator's influence, able to spread farther through longer incubation periods, self sustain, and then stay dormant waiting for anything that's not itself to find it again in essence farming anywhere it's able to take over completely.

The Alien and The Pathogen exist as fundamentally unique from each other in this way, related in that one comes from the other, but the latter does not carry all the features of the former that much's clear.

So just applying the features of the Alien to anything you want, arbitrarily through the Pathogen's just lazy at best, and a total misunderstanding of the core at each's function.

As for the rest of your statement firstly
(lol using AVP as a form of evidence)

They can spit acid.

It's never shown in the films that fire can kill the adults.

It's fairly clear within the laws of the Alien fiction both via the films and The RPG and especially The Cold Forge, Into Charybdis, and Phalanx that victory for the humans' a rarity not a commonality.

I think your understanding's rather narrow on this.

Quote from: Trash Queen on Mar 23, 2021, 05:38:54 PM
I agree the Drone's what you get with an Alien and human, the Runner's what you get with an Alien and animal, the PredAlien's what you get with an Alien and Predator, they all have an obvious trajectory, even if we do not quite understand every aspect.

I also do not see in any way that this comes across as something the Engineers or humanity might create.

We know Ridley Scott's understanding on it's influenced by our real world, and in that respect as he often likes to say, The Pathogen's got a logic to it of clearing out the meat as fast as possible and then die out so things can start again in a way the Alien does not.

I believe David's the one that instituted the Alien having black skin and something evocative of biomechanical beginnings, The Pathogen's always produces the opposite, white skin and nothing biomechanical present.

But even if that's revealed not to be the case, the fact the Alien's a rapist's part of the focal point of it's identity with or without a creator's influence, able to spread farther through longer incubation periods, self sustain, and then stay dormant waiting for anything that's not itself to find it again in essence farming anywhere it's able to take over completely.

The Alien and The Pathogen exist as fundamentally unique from each other in this way, related in that one comes from the other, but the latter does not carry all the features of the former that much's clear.

- As for what David did, imo he duplicated what the Engineers created before. On the relief sculpture in the shrine room in "Prometheus" there is a Xenomorph egg.
In the "Covenant" commentary Scott says that the creature (Xenomorph/"the Alien") is weaponized (from the Neomorph). Who did that? David in Covenant. Before that the Space Jockeys/Engineers did it.
In film there is no connection between David and the Derelict.   
David's story is done AFAIK meaning imo Disney will not continue it.

- I agree that the Xenomorph ("the Alien") is not a first stage creation from the black goo (the "Pathogen").
As you pointed out, there are features on the Xenomorph which are not apparent on the Deacon, or Neomorph.

However, that does not eliminate the concept that the Engineers/Space Jockeys had a hand in the creation of the Xenomorph.
- It has already been stated by Ridley Scott that the Xenomorphs were weapons of the Space Jockeys going all the way back to the DVD commentary.
- In the "Prometheus" writer's commentary it is mentioned that there is a relationship between the Deacon and the Xenomorph.
This is explored further in the Blu-ray extras by Steven Messing, Visual Effects Art Director for Prometheus, in the 3D Blu-Ray set (Enhancement Pods/Xenomorphology: The Deacon). The Xenomorph evolved from the Deacon/ultramorph.

QuoteThe Xenomorph in my mind was a descendant of the Ultramorph. It was the pure form of this kind of almost virus that these Engineers had created.

They're a lot about sacrifice, so in my mind, there was an Engineer that sacrificed himself with this virus and it created this horrific creature, this being that was gonna eradicate planets. It was like a parasite that would destroy the planet and then make it start over and rebirth it.

And they kinda worshiped it, and that's where you see this relief sculpture where it's almost a religious sculpture.

As it got kind of... the virus spread and got polluted, the Xenomorph was an evolutionary descendant that was not as pure.

Such Deacon to Xenomorph evolution would have been monitored/guided by the Engineers. After all, the Derelict is carrying Xenomorphs.

Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 07, 2021, 11:20:26 PM
So just applying the features of the Alien to anything you want, arbitrarily through the Pathogen's just lazy at best, and a total misunderstanding of the core at each's function.

I don't think I've misunderstood anything and I certainly don't believe that my thinking is "lazy at best".

Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 07, 2021, 11:20:26 PM
(lol using AVP as a form of evidence)

You brought up this;
"the PredAlien's what you get with an Alien and Predator,"

The PredAlien idea comes from the AVP franchise including "Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliens_vs._Predator%3A_Requiem

If you bring up the AVP franchise, I can too.

Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 07, 2021, 11:20:26 PM
They can spit acid.

Spitting is barely a ranged weapon effective for a few  feet / meters in the films (more about that below). In my first comment in this thread (which you responded to) I wrote;

"the Xenomorphs... are biological creatures with some upgrades but they are not much more lethal than a grizzly bear combined with a spitting cobra."

So, you should already know that I realize that the Xenomorph can spit. The question is whether this is an effective ranged weapon (In the movies) compared to what modern humans can create. No it isn't.
A spitting cobra could be killed at distance (far beyond spitting range) by a machine gun, a bomb, or a rocket. Same with a Xenomorph.

Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 07, 2021, 11:20:26 PM
It's never shown in the films that fire can kill the adults.

Fire does kill young xenos but you are right about adults in the films. Which means you don't count the games such as.
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Ripley_(Space_Marine)

I don't either. More about that below.

Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 07, 2021, 11:20:26 PM
It's fairly clear within the laws of the Alien fiction both via ... The RPG and especially The Cold Forge, Into Charybdis, and Phalanx that victory for the humans' a rarity not a commonality.

In the movies the Xenomorphs would be wiped out by the full force of a modern military. In the films the Xenos are defeated every time by a handful of people.

As I wrote, I don't count the games. Imo in 50 years "Alien" will be remembered and these games will be forgotten. 

- But I can see that you have been strongly influenced by the games in your conclusions.
Fair enough. We can agree to disagree.

;)

Behind the scenes material does not matter though, we never see the Egg relief or Facehugger in the film itself after the atmosphere's affected in the room only in the Making of the Film, and as for the mural it's clearly either a Neomorph or Deacon.

I used the PredAlien merely as an example of the "DNA Reflex" just as with the Runner and the Drone, but the AVP films, hold no relevance whatsoever to me as with many who work on the license.

I like the way you did not respond to this part that completely deconstructs your argument:

"But even if that's revealed not to be the case, the fact the Alien's a rapist's part of the focal point of it's identity with or without a creator's influence, able to spread farther through longer incubation periods, self sustain, and then stay dormant waiting for anything that's not itself to find it again in essence farming anywhere it's able to take over completely."

Also I referenced only the one tabletop Role Playing Game, the rest's the books, nor do I equate popularity with importance as you do: if I did you can easily make the argument that lots of younger people certainly know Alien more from Isolation than the films themselves.

Wiped out? Perhaps but if you go by the films, in every case every one but Morse who encountered them died because of being in contact with them apart from Alien Resurrection that shows the cost to Earth of wiping them out as they immediately took over a military vessel, even in the most true to life depiction within the fiction neither side wipes the other out easily.

Quote from: bb-15 on Apr 10, 2021, 08:47:36 PM
In the "Covenant" commentary Scott says that the creature (Xenomorph/"the Alien") is weaponized (from the Neomorph).

Might be time to get around to listening to that.

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Quote from: bb-15 on Apr 10, 2021, 08:47:36 PM
David's story is done AFAIK meaning imo Disney will not continue it.

I lean towards thinking I'd rather see it "done," with what actually happened to those poor colonists left to the imagination.

https://youtu.be/Zv6hLkZWvzY
https://youtu.be/tDBr3xbgu0o

 "f**king hologram"

"Sometimes to create you need to destroy. You know whose line that is ? Joseph Stalin's"

:D

"The blowholes are like, varying."

https://youtu.be/C5prEpOXlWg (https://youtu.be/C5prEpOXlWg)

"Dudong"

"Horses got a giant erection"

Aaaaay these videos are fun  ;D

I somehow don't think that these parody edits are too far from the truth

I noticed a few people commented about how could this supposedly advanced species have only one small city on their home world. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is an entire PLANET we are talking about that could have easily had hundreds or thousands of cities across it. The one where David landed may have been the equivalent of a quaint country village to the engineers for all we know. David evidently captured some of the engineers for his experiments over the years, he had to get them from elsewhere didn't he?

Its possible the Engineers have outpost planets, I mean they had weapon testing planet in Prometheus. So I think they aren't all gone despite David's efforts.

Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 15, 2021, 01:46:39 AM
Its possible the Engineers have outpost planets, I mean they had weapon testing planet in Prometheus.

Agreed, based on Yanek's dialogue with Shaw around 01:31:00: "This ain't their home. It's an installation. Maybe even military. Now they put it out here in the middle of nowhere because they're not stupid enough to make weapons of mass destruction on their own doorstep." (That was fun, dipping into that scene for a moment...)

Quote from: TNF on Jul 15, 2021, 04:44:14 PM

Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 15, 2021, 01:46:39 AM
Its possible the Engineers have outpost planets, I mean they had weapon testing planet in Prometheus.

Agreed, based on Yanek's dialogue with Shaw around 01:31:00: "This ain't their home. It's an installation. Maybe even military. Now they put it out here in the middle of nowhere because they're not stupid enough to make weapons of mass destruction on their own doorstep." (That was fun, dipping into that scene for a moment...)

Exactly, thanks for sharing that. :)

I was reading in another forum that the Engineers in Prometheus were in rebellion to the other Engineers, and Ridley Scott calls them Fallen Angels. I however, did not notice a rebellion in Prometheus and when David returns to the Engineer Homeworld (if its their honeworld  its to great fan fair by Engineers who look more civilians than military.

I'd be happy to see the Engineers' story continued in some manner.

Quote from: TNF on Jul 15, 2021, 07:25:29 PM
I'd be happy to see the Engineers' story continued in some manner.

Same here, I am hoping what David destroyed was a Engineer Colony, not the homeworld. That just like humans who star colonizing planets, The Engineers did that first.

Yes. I lament the loss of Shaw's POV as we discovered more about them...

Quote from: TNF on Jul 16, 2021, 04:38:32 PM
Yes. I lament the loss of Shaw's POV as we discovered more about them...

Me too, she was the best lead we had since Aliens and an interesting character. Greatly acted and believable, not just another Ripley clone. Her religious angle mixed with the Engineers was an earned story.  Lot of potential....wasted. I do hope we haven't seen the last of the Engineers or the Jockey concept.

Quote from: Lost_Hunter on Jul 16, 2021, 08:50:29 PM

Quote from: TNF on Jul 16, 2021, 04:38:32 PM
Yes. I lament the loss of Shaw's POV as we discovered more about them...

Me too, she was the best lead we had since Aliens and an interesting character. Greatly acted and believable, not just another Ripley clone. Her religious angle mixed with the Engineers was an earned story.  Lot of potential....wasted. I do hope we haven't seen the last of the Engineers or the Jockey concept.

I wholeheartedly agree. Covenant disrespected her arch. I really wish Ridley had stuck to his vision, exploring the Engineers.