Why the PREDATOR sequels get the face WRONG [Opinion Piece]

Started by bendinglight, Feb 21, 2021, 05:43:58 AM

Author
Why the PREDATOR sequels get the face WRONG [Opinion Piece] (Read 30,853 times)

Voodoo Magic

Voodoo Magic

#30
Quote from: SiL on Feb 24, 2021, 04:08:19 AM
QuoteTo be fair, who wouldn't trust what Stan Winston describes in a documentary as the story behind the mandibles, that it being a James Cameron conception?  Even with home video ownership and love for all the movies, who could blame someone for believing its behind-the-scenes featurette?
If someone's going to act like they know what they're talking about and provide an "analysis", it's kind of fair to expect them to do some research and know what they're talking about.

Come on now, it's only natural to believe Stan Winston. And the video is not called "Who came up with the idea of the mandibles?" but rather Why Predator sequels get the face wrong.

Quote
QuoteYet dog mouths, their jaw bones, are all structured in the same way

https://i.redd.it/x9rq9s2wjiq31.png

https://64.media.tumblr.com/15299ef5590833f74cd83d17d67f6ba0/tumblr_o41g4lNsBl1tw36nao6_250.jpg

Thank you. This exactly demonstrates my point. All the jaw bones are structured the same way. They all close the same way. They don't appear broken.

SiL

SiL

#31
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 04:23:46 AM
Come on now, it's only natural to believe Stan Winston. And the video is not called "Who came up with the idea of the mandibles?" but rather Why Predator sequels get the face wrong.
It's also natural to research a topic.

QuoteThey all close the same way. They don't appear broken.


The jaw of the Shih Tzu very, very clearly does not close the same way as the husky. The maxilla of the husky (and most of the others) extends further than the mandible -- it's the opposite on the Shih Tzu, which has a distinct underbite. The pug also has an underbite, and a highly recessed nose.

Let's put some skin on them.




If dogs were movie monsters, this would get the same kind of ridicule ADI's Predators get.

PAS Spinelli

PAS Spinelli

#32
Imma just say this, but it's pretty fair to say that different breeds of dogs are a complete different topic to what should be the same members of the exact same species, the Fugitive is meant to look like the 87 Predator, and he doesn't, it's a design flaw, not something that can be excused with an in universe "oh they just happen to be different breeds, hence why the mandible location and the jaw look so f**ked even when compared to other extreme examples already present in this franchise"

BigDaddyJohn

BigDaddyJohn

#33
How do we know for sure the plane anecdote is fake ? And for the jaw thing yep it seems to be mostly personal choice/style from ADI, but that personal/choice does make the face look faker. Don't really matter if it's a choice, this choice look way less ok than what came before, that is the point.

SiL

SiL

#34
It's possible the anecdote happened, but the mandibles were in the redesign before Winston was coming on board. Maybe Winston was thinking of getting rid of them and Cameron's comment convinced him otherwise?

426Buddy

426Buddy

#35
Regardless of overbite, dog jaw bones open and close the same,  with the same bone structure, they still operate the same.

Just because a person has an overbite it doesn't mean the structures that operate their mouth are different than a normal person

A bad effect is a bad effect and that's what ADI pred faces are. Bad effects.

OmegaZilla

OmegaZilla

#36
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
To be fair, who wouldn't trust what Stan Winston
someone who's done research on a subject that's common domain at this point
see my coverage

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
It be fair to suggest that not many general fans that go beyond the movies and supplementals would know the real story. There hasn't been a Predator book published containing that info...
don't care doesn't justify

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AMdoesn't take away from being able to view and be critical of various practical effect results in a franchise
it's okay to be critical as long as a. you recognize that criticism is based on a subjective paradigm and b. you don't confuse that paradigm for the objective truth

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
I don't know. This seems excessive for 10 seconds on Predator 2 and I adore Predator 2. All the content creator mentioned was it started to stray with needing a little more cheek skin, but then quickly followed it up that it still properly maintains the closed mandible look of the Jungle Hunter. I'm not sure I even agree with the tiny criticism, but it feels like you're perhaps having a slight overreaction to it.  :)
there's an entire subsection in the video dedicated to P2

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
I highly doubt Anderson instructed ADI to make sure Scar's excess skin roll and fold in odd, peculiar, seemingly unnatural ways... "It better not appear elastic and realistic ADI! And make sure his mandible teeth point in odd weird directions too!!!!"  :P
if you read what I said a. Anderson WANTED the hero look, WANTED the human-like face because Scar was the hero of the story. This is documented in multiple places and has never once been contradicted and b. AvP's shooting schedule was super tight, they had three months of production which in filmmaking terms is HELLA tight, and they had a production budget that was too low for what they wanted to do and YET AvP looks far more expensive than $60m, there are things that of course are going to slip in all this - and Scar's floppy mandible-membrane is an example of that

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
Yet dog mouths, their jaw bones, are all structured in the same way, where some of ADIs Predators appear to have broken jaws.
"appear to have" is correct as we know absolutely zero of the intraspecific variation that happens endoskeletally between predator individuals since you know they're aliens. See SiL's photo comparison

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
Tortured? How so? You knock this guy for making an assumption here and there, yet to be fair, you're doing it too.
yeah cause the scientists absolutely know how to take care of an ALIEN CREATURE don't they? That's why they keep it SEDATED WITH IMPROPER DOSAGES they couldn't possibly know? That's why upon awakening the pred is so goddamn PISSED that he decides to wreak COMPLETE HAVOC in a place filled with the species he wants to HELP? It clearly wasn't being properly treated and this is something the movie flat out visually implies - unlike the guy's assumptions, which stem from personal aesthetic taste

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
Look, full disclosure here, I loathe the ADI Predators
which is why your arguments aren't all that

I loathe wolf's face - doesn't mean I will in any way call it an invalid design. Used to do that, but then I grew up. There's lots of people who like it, to the point where wolf's their fave! Who am I to say they're wrong?

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
Or even KNB again.
KNB, the guys who gave you the "crabator" and the pisspoor (following your line of reasoning) classic predator with floppity flop flop mandible membranes and lockjaw? At that point, I'd also say "no thanks" to KNB returning (if I were you)

I'm not mad or pissed mind you, just tired of these arguments being recycled over and over and over again

Quote from: SiL on Feb 24, 2021, 05:56:02 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 04:23:46 AM
Come on now, it's only natural to believe Stan Winston. And the video is not called "Who came up with the idea of the mandibles?" but rather Why Predator sequels get the face wrong.
It's also natural to research a topic.

QuoteThey all close the same way. They don't appear broken.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/15299ef5590833f74cd83d17d67f6ba0/tumblr_o41g4lNsBl1tw36nao6_250.jpg
The jaw of the Shih Tzu very, very clearly does not close the same way as the husky. The maxilla of the husky (and most of the others) extends further than the mandible -- it's the opposite on the Shih Tzu, which has a distinct underbite. The pug also has an underbite, and a highly recessed nose.

Let's put some skin on them.

https://www.purina.com.au/-/media/project/purina/main/breeds/dog/dog_siberian-husky_desktop.jpg?h=475&la=en&w=825&hash=B2B86CD3D2D85392DB3948A07E63FB09
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Pug_in_Tallinn.JPG/220px-Pug_in_Tallinn.JPG

If dogs were movie monsters, this would get the same kind of ridicule ADI's Predators get.
Thank you this 500%

Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Feb 24, 2021, 11:01:12 AM
How do we know for sure the plane anecdote is fake ?
Because the mandibles and the rastafarian look had already been established as key traits BEFORE Winston's involvement. Shannon Shea -- who was involved in the original movie -- even commented on the dubious veridicity of that anecdote. The classic documentary "If it bleeds we can kill it" is pure sensationalistic bullshit with VERY LITTLE true information regarding what happened behind the scenes (even regarding the insect Predator XFX did). This is testified by MULTIPLE people

What Winston and Wang did was based on Munro and Short's efforts and can in essence be seen as refining or honing in. See my coverage I linked above

Quote from: SiL on Feb 24, 2021, 11:33:11 AM
It's possible the anecdote happened, but the mandibles were in the redesign before Winston was coming on board. Maybe Winston was thinking of getting rid of them and Cameron's comment convinced him otherwise?
Shea seemed to say in-between the lines that the anecdote was fake... but this could be the case, and if so, Winston should've said that instead of making it look like a completely different course of events

Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 24, 2021, 11:44:32 AM
A bad effect is a bad effect and that's what ADI pred faces are. Bad effects.
You not liking those effects does not in any way establish them as bad effects, sorry mate

SiL

SiL

#37
QuoteRegardless of overbite, dog jaw bones open and close the same,  with the same bone structure, they still operate the same.

If we're just talking "it has a hinge joint" then sure. But we've seen the Predator bone structure to compare when exactly? Aside from one skull in Predators.

The mandibles rotating and flexing in different directions doesn't actually mean the bone structure is different; those changes could be influenced by muscles and tendons. Keeping with our dog comparison, dingoes can rotate their wrists and turn their heads back a good 180 or so degrees, but their bone structure isn't fundamentally different from dogs.

I'm not arguing this excuses the designs in any way, I'm just saying these aren't great arguments against them.

BlueMarsalis79

BlueMarsalis79

#38
Got to agree to disagree on this one, the ADI Predator faces look not... good at all to be honest, even with their intentions and the design directions and it's not because it's another take.

It's because they fail at their goal fundamentally, in comparison to past successes in Predator and Predator 2, although we can see this behind the scenes in nearly every film...

It's actually most evident in The Predator of all places, when we get a direct comparison with CGI versions of the Fugitive and of course Upgrade only exists in that, but during the holographic scene with other Predators standing around one being injected on a table- we see the former's design but without skin folds behind the mandibles- with the mandibles actually "closing properly" and with a overall head shape more in proportion with the original film and the Predator bible's depiction.

So it's clear that's what ADI's going for, or what the director asked for as we can see it's consistent with the behind the scenes design, and actually it's achieved on the CGI side of things but on the practical side of things anyone since Stan Winston can't quite manage it for unknown reasons.

I don't have any photos to demonstrate this as I don't own the film, but I think you all get what I mean, and know what I'm talking about. 

Voodoo Magic

Voodoo Magic

#39
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 24, 2021, 12:11:27 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
I highly doubt Anderson instructed ADI to make sure Scar's excess skin roll and fold in odd, peculiar, seemingly unnatural ways... "It better not appear elastic and realistic ADI! And make sure his mandible teeth point in odd weird directions too!!!!"  :P

if you read what I said a. Anderson WANTED the hero look, WANTED the human-like face because Scar was the hero of the story. This is documented in multiple places and has never once been contradicted and b.

This is what you said:

"-scar is a special case because everything about that face design was strictly dictated by the direction Anderson wanted to take with that character, which was extremely specific"

And that all encompassing "everything" is precisely what I was contradicting.

QuoteAvP's shooting schedule was super tight, they had three months of production which in filmmaking terms is HELLA tight, and they had a production budget that was too low for what they wanted to do and YET AvP looks far more expensive than $60m, there are things that of course are going to slip in all this - and Scar's floppy mandible-membrane is an example of that

This is only your assumption. It suggests all the flaws would have occurred regardless, even if Stan Winston was handling the fx versus ADI.

I don't buy into this premise.

Quote
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
Tortured? How so? You knock this guy for making an assumption here and there, yet to be fair, you're doing it too.
yeah cause the scientists absolutely know how to take care of an ALIEN CREATURE don't they? That's why they keep it SEDATED WITH IMPROPER DOSAGES they couldn't possibly know? That's why upon awakening the pred is so goddamn PISSED that he decides to wreak COMPLETE HAVOC in a place filled with the species he wants to HELP? It clearly wasn't being properly treated and this is something the movie flat out visually implies - unlike the guy's assumptions, which stem from personal aesthetic taste

In the script The Predator was playing possum. But regardless, an intent of torture would be tests without sedation, if you can even qualify it as such. I don't buy into this premise either.

I also question your need for so much capitalization.  :)

Quote
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
Look, full disclosure here, I loathe the ADI Predators
which is why your arguments aren't all that

I loathe wolf's face - doesn't mean I will in any way call it an invalid design. Used to do that, but then I grew up. There's lots of people who like it, to the point where wolf's their fave! Who am I to say they're wrong?

Everyone is free to have their opinion, absolutely my friend. But you seem very riled up. Have a beer!  :)

Quote
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 03:49:35 AM
Or even KNB again.
KNB, the guys who gave you the "crabator" and the pisspoor (following your line of reasoning) classic predator with floppity flop flop mandible membranes and lockjaw? At that point, I'd also say "no thanks" to KNB returning (if I were you)

So the small budget and rushed schedule is to blame when it's ADI on AvP... but not KNB on Predators?  This doesn't seem very objective at all to me.  And yes, considering KNB had only go with it, I'd definitely give them another chance. Three times... yes, I'd want someone else other than KNB too.

Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 24, 2021, 11:44:32 AM
Regardless of overbite, dog jaw bones open and close the same,  with the same bone structure, they still operate the same.

Just because a person has an overbite it doesn't mean the structures that operate their mouth are different than a normal person

Precisely.

QuoteA bad effect is a bad effect and that's what ADI pred faces are. Bad effects.

i think ADI clearly is talented, and everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and I just don't believe Predators are one of their strengths. They had three films. Love it or hate it, they made their stamp on the franchise. Here's hoping for a new FX house!  🤞

OmegaZilla

OmegaZilla

#40
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
This is what you said:

"-scar is a special case because everything about that face design was strictly dictated by the direction Anderson wanted to take with that character, which was extremely specific"

And that all encompassing "everything" is precisely what I was contradicting.
semantics

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
This is only your assumption.
It's documented fact and the wear those mandible membranes had to withstand is a consequence of it... you can even see them working PERFECTLY (no floppy wrinkles) in behind-the-scenes footage. Predator 2 suffered the same kind of wear

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
In the script The Predator was playing possum. But regardless, an intent of torture would be tests without sedation, if you can even qualify it as such. I don't buy into this premise either.
depends on what you mean by intent of torture, and regardless, those are alien beings strapping the guy to a table and not allowing him to move, with god knows what in his bloodstream. He's not pleased

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
I also question your need for so much capitalization.  :)
emphasis

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
Everyone is free to have their opinion, absolutely my friend. But you seem very riled up. Have a beer!  :)
QuoteI'm not mad or pissed mind you, just tired of these arguments being recycled over and over and over again

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
So the small budget and rushed schedule is to blame when it's ADI on AvP... but not KNB on Predators?
I was going by your logic - not mine. I understand the limits behind the classic pred (except for the lockjaw, which is puzzling - haven't found data on that yet)

Voodoo Magic

Voodoo Magic

#41
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 24, 2021, 03:12:14 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
This is what you said:

"-scar is a special case because everything about that face design was strictly dictated by the direction Anderson wanted to take with that character, which was extremely specific"

And that all encompassing "everything" is precisely what I was contradicting.
semantics

It's not when you're telling me you said something different.

Quote
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
This is only your assumption.
It's documented fact and the wear those mandible membranes had to withstand is a consequence of it... you can even see them working PERFECTLY (no floppy wrinkles) in behind-the-scenes footage. Predator 2 suffered the same kind of wear

I've seen all the bits videos too and I don't buy into the blame is environment versus execution. I'm all for including a factoring of environment with all of these suits, but not solely pointing the finger when it suits (bad pun intended)

Quote
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
In the script The Predator was playing possum. But regardless, an intent of torture would be tests without sedation, if you can even qualify it as such. I don't buy into this premise either.
depends on what you mean by intent of torture, and regardless, those are alien beings strapping the guy to a table and not allowing him to move, with god knows what in his bloodstream. He's not pleased

He was pleased if he was playing possum. But pleased or not pleased, it still doesn't support your argument to me that the ADI costume looked bad by intention, because he was tortured.

Quote
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 24, 2021, 02:56:26 PM
So the small budget and rushed schedule is to blame when it's ADI on AvP... but not KNB on Predators?
I was going by your logic - not mine. I understand the limits behind the classic pred (except for the lockjaw, which is puzzling - haven't found data on that yet)

Yet that isn't my logic. After AvP I was hopeful and willing to give ADI another try. Just look to Stan Winston's gorilla work in Congo, then to his redemption in Instinct, to see how an FX house can recognize and approve upon their technique mistakes. I hoped the same for ADI.

Kradan

Kradan

#42
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 24, 2021, 12:11:27 PM
I'm not mad or pissed mind you, just tired of these arguments being recycled over and over and over again

Voodoo, remember how annoyed you got when I was posting this GIF ?

Spoiler
[close]

in response to your rants about Crabators ? And I've done it maybe half a dozen of times.

Well, now I kinda feel the same about every time you rant about Crabators. It's not so much about the criticism itself (which is fine, it's your opinion and etc.) but the fact it is repeated over and over and over and OVER.

Spoiler
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jul 11, 2020, 09:11:33 PM
Quote from: BlazinBlue88 on Jul 11, 2020, 08:33:33 PM
Okay I have a serious question.

Fugitive Predator. I've heard some people love his look. Heard others hate it. My question is why?

And the mask was one that not terribly fond of personally

It's a Crabator. It's a crustacean looking Predator with broken oversized jaws and a gigantic disproportional bobble head that can hold pencils within his mandible flaps that likely makes the late, great Stan Winston turn in his grave.







Long live the work of Stan da Man Winston!

https://i.ibb.co/Tkrmkz1/tumblr-nl7pj5-D1n-C1u1vwpho2-500-1.gif
https://i.ibb.co/f0VFBBR/tumblr-or8kgl-RR9l1rp0vkjo1-500.gif

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 25, 2020, 03:38:44 PM
These far away shots are not a wise choice to use for this scrutiny, but to zoom in on the Emissary I actually referenced in this thread and you'll see the Emissary is clearly larger.



But if you look Fugitive ginormous head with mouth folds, you can't even see his neck.



But good old Stan.... a neck and proportion!



Now the other Emissary, I'm not certain that Crabator was designed to vastly open it's mouth.



This is not trick photography making these no-neck heads look big. They're just big.



Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 21, 2020, 06:24:23 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 21, 2020, 05:26:55 PM
Voodoo is just happy the female Pred is not a Crabator.

Damn straight!



Quote from: JokersWarPig on Jan 21, 2020, 05:58:32 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 20, 2020, 03:27:10 PM


And check out how her dreads are done in the back...



I love this, I can tell its female but its not that different from what we've already seen.

Yes, agreed!

I do appreciate there was a lot of consideration taken with her:


  • "The design for the female Predator took considerable time as Fox was very heavily involved in process. It involved a great deal of back and forth changing elements, but Illfonic is very proud of what they've achieved with her."


Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 05, 2019, 10:21:03 PM
Quote from: Shinawi on Nov 05, 2019, 10:01:40 PM
When Scar revealed his face to Lex

#JustSayNo

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8a/ce/21/8ace21d7219e19074b9910231a634fc0.gif

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d6/04/ec/d604ecaffad34bc5b57e2c4ac0d0225b.gif

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 29, 2020, 07:58:51 PM
Quote from: Sol on Nov 29, 2020, 07:42:01 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 29, 2020, 06:54:32 PM
I didn't see much of a flap problem with KNB.

https://i.imgur.com/Dh0VuYB.png

I didn't say I didn't see any. Yes, when comparing ADI and KNB, again I'll say "I didn't see much of a flap problem with KNB." And I still don't. Not like ADI's awkward rolls and pencil holders.  :)





Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Aug 26, 2020, 02:26:42 PM
Quote from: SiL on Aug 26, 2020, 01:12:32 PM
ADI are Oscar winners because people have thought they were the best at their craft on different projects. They've created some of the most memorable and effective creature effects of the last 30 years.

They've employed many of the same people who worked at SWS and other major effects houses over the decades.

Forget employed. The ADI founders came from Stan Winston Studio for a year or two before leaving to form their own company.

And I'm aware of their Academy Award for their mixing of practical and cg in Death Becomes Her (fun movie by the way). Awards don't mean too much to me personally. For example, it's a crime that Rob Bottin has never won an Oscar - and it also has factors of your competition that particular year. Fx is a small market.

QuoteI'm not a big fan of a lot of their design choices but they're not amateurs and they're far from incompetent.

Don't turn this into a strawman argument. No one said these words "amateurs" or "incompetent", but I stand behind my feelings that in 2004 in regards to Scar, "Every aspect of Scar to me was inferior, even his paint application, which just screamed out to me during the release of AvP a lower degree of experience and/or talent". I was simply reacting to the work:





https://i.ibb.co/NLn8D1G/proxy.jpg

And I'm not a big fan of many of their design choices in general either, which is why I feel they'll never be considered the best of the best with the likes of Stan Winston in a hundred years. They won't be on the Mount Rushmore of Practical FX guys in my humble opinion. But it's a small industry, and they have to be talented in such a small industry just to thrive / later survive. Clearly.

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 25, 2020, 01:56:16 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 25, 2020, 02:33:27 AM
Is Voodoo the foremost pundit on crabators?

Quote from: Kradan on May 25, 2020, 09:41:35 AM
He claims to be one

Of course! I coined the term!

But yes... no "x" mandibles, straightened brows, broken jaws, they meet and exceed the requirement to be deemed a Crustacean Predator!

Also I can't take these big heads! I lined up both eye pupils on the Stan Winston design and ADI design, then halved it.





I miss the days when we had Predator makers that understood proportion!

https://i.ibb.co/25XxnWz/Predator25.jpg

#SayNoToCrabators

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 05, 2020, 04:51:20 PM


Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 17, 2019, 02:44:58 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Nov 16, 2019, 11:40:18 PM
You all know Voodoo will come inspecting for Crabators in your memes.

It's only a matter of time.

https://66.media.tumblr.com/64352324ad3cd1dd024ec53f1fdf2813/tumblr_pahhahuDGy1se0jzho1_500.gif


Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Nov 17, 2019, 01:48:24 AM
What are Crabators? is it something like a nickname for Preds?

What??? Have you learned nothing from me??? Have you learned nothing about those horrible, horrible Crustacean Hunters from outer space ???







Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 10, 2019, 09:24:24 PM
Quote from: Master on Oct 10, 2019, 09:19:10 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Oct 09, 2019, 08:49:58 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 09, 2019, 02:32:57 PM
I agree. Some practical fx of the Upgrade would have been nice.

One positive note is, even as a full CG creation, the Upgrade Predator doesn't have the disappointing ADI broken jaw look. It actually reminds me of KNB's work.



Indeed

KNB Predators had mandibles movement, but couldn't close opened mouth.

Yet still a step up from ADI's Crabators I think...



Vs



Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jun 21, 2019, 08:42:55 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Jun 21, 2019, 08:25:02 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jun 21, 2019, 05:28:28 PM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Jun 21, 2019, 05:25:36 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Jun 21, 2019, 05:02:22 PM
a conversation between creator and enraged fan

If someone needs an enraged fan to co-host a Shane Black interview I'm here you know.

Same goes with me and ADI. Someone needs to answer for those Crabators!

"Welcome to the AvPGalaxy podcast, venting edition."

https://media.giphy.com/media/76RAzMnxCOWDS/giphy.gif



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdeptHopefulCanary-size_restricted.gif

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 12, 2019, 03:12:59 PM
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Mar 12, 2019, 02:25:58 PM
I don't believe it's exactly ADI's fault considering they're just doing as they're told. You can have all the personal dignity in the world but you'd never work again so I don't blame them for going with it.

I do respect that they acknowledge they really only got Wolf right.
However the issue isn't so much ADI as much as it is the directors and producers who at the end of the day are the ones calling the shots. ADI really doesn't have that much say in the matter regarding what the director wants and what makes it to screen. When you're brought on to do FX you're basically a hired gun. Director vision and the money allotted is going to be the biggest impediments, and we know that from Wolf, Fugitive, what little we've seen of the Emissary that they do just fine on Predator FX.


When Alec @ ADI was asked about the broken jaw, slack-jawed look of their Predators compared to the original beloved Stan Winston design, Alec answered the question with a question: Why do the mandibles have to close like they did in the first two movies?

Alec confirmed it was a creative decision, and after three films, with three different directors, you do have to consider the common factor: ADI. Especially when the CG Upgrade Assasin Predator mandible and jaws looked correct in "The Predator", even among his deformed upgraded self, but the ADI Predators in the same movie had the same broken jaw (Crabator) problem. We doubt Shane Black said "try to get the mandibles/jaw muscles right on the cg Predator only, people!" It would seem Black wasn't very invested in it either way.

We've relegated this change in core facial musculature to ADI's "stamp" on the Predator, for better or worse. And most of us feel worse. And I haven't even addressed the paint jobs.  :-\

https://66.media.tumblr.com/3ab7516e3eaa79a11367a3fedcc516b6/tumblr_nl7pj5D1nC1u1vwpho2_500.gif









https://media2.giphy.com/media/4olCC4plGHHyM/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c87cbf737624149633d62fa

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 25, 2019, 07:23:08 PM
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Feb 25, 2019, 06:19:15 PM
As bad as the plot is, Fugitive and even the Emissary Pred's look a lot more life like than the AVP preds

That's fair. The Fugitive was the best ADI created in my opinion, but the Fugitive, and two Emissaries still feature the gamut of design and to a lesser degree, paint problems:



Ironically, I would insist the CG Assasin Upgrade Predator came the closest / was the most faithful of them all in regards to Stan Winston's x mandible design. No slack-jaw, broken jaw bones there.


Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 23, 2019, 10:46:14 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Feb 23, 2019, 07:29:41 PM
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 23, 2019, 07:25:23 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 23, 2019, 06:38:45 PM
Yeah the actual predator faces were abysmal in avp.

Do you think Stan Winston would cringe seeing them? 🤔

Voodoo saying something about "Crabators" in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . .

It's...
The CRABATORS!



Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 23, 2019, 06:38:45 PM
Yeah the actual predator faces were abysmal in avp.

Someone buy this man a beer!!

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 03:05:53 PM
Quote from: Highland on Jan 04, 2019, 04:57:26 AM
Quote from: SiL on Dec 24, 2018, 04:33:48 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Dec 24, 2018, 04:01:06 AM
At no point does the predator 2 animatronic face ever look as bad as scars face in AvP.
His googley eyes when Harrigan is right about to chop his arm off. Looks like something out of the original Mad Max ;D
I never had much problems with the P2 face. I never stopped to think that it looked bad, not like every movie that ever came after it.

Even the Elders look 5 times better than anything else.

While I agree 100% with your feelings regarding the Predators looked bad after "Predator 2", specifically ADI's work in AVP, AVPR and The Predator (however they have shown improvement with each movie), how did you feel about the work done by KNB EFX in "Predators"?

QuoteI noticed something on re-watching the lab scene in The Predator. They make his mandibles act like a crab with little movements, the original never did this, they were just moving when he wanted them to move.

I noticed that too.

Another big problem, in my opinion, is the ADI Predators can no longer close their mouth, so to speak.  Here is a shot from Predator, Predator 2, and The Predator featuring all three Yautjas not roaring or speaking.  In ADI's design, it can't close it's mouth.



I think I'm safe in saying the general consensus of Predator fans is non-approving of ADI's changes, but even when it's brought up (much gratitude to The Old One), Alec from ADI dismisses the question.
[close]

I think that's enough to get the point across, eh ?

For comparision, I know there's a lot of people who dislike ADI's work on Aliens. Yet, I can hardly remember anyone complaining about it apart from Trash Queen throwing term "Snaliens" couple of times

PAS Spinelli

PAS Spinelli

#43
The Director going for something is not a valid reason to justify a objectively worse design, Shane Black was going for some autism awareness shit when he added that subplot in The Predator, is that subplot good? Does it represent autism well? No and no.

Voodoo Magic

Voodoo Magic

#44
Quote from: Kradan on Feb 24, 2021, 06:04:37 PM
Quote from: Omegamorph on Feb 24, 2021, 12:11:27 PM
I'm not mad or pissed mind you, just tired of these arguments being recycled over and over and over again

Voodoo, remember how annoyed you got when I was posting this GIF ?

Spoiler
[close]

in response to your rants about Crabators ? And I've done it maybe half a dozen of times.

Well, now I kinda feel the same about every time you rant about Crabators. It's not so much about the criticism itself (which is fine, it's your opinion and etc.) but the fact it is repeated over and over and over and OVER.

Spoiler
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jul 11, 2020, 09:11:33 PM
Quote from: BlazinBlue88 on Jul 11, 2020, 08:33:33 PM
Okay I have a serious question.

Fugitive Predator. I've heard some people love his look. Heard others hate it. My question is why?

And the mask was one that not terribly fond of personally

It's a Crabator. It's a crustacean looking Predator with broken oversized jaws and a gigantic disproportional bobble head that can hold pencils within his mandible flaps that likely makes the late, great Stan Winston turn in his grave.







Long live the work of Stan da Man Winston!

https://i.ibb.co/Tkrmkz1/tumblr-nl7pj5-D1n-C1u1vwpho2-500-1.gif
https://i.ibb.co/f0VFBBR/tumblr-or8kgl-RR9l1rp0vkjo1-500.gif

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 25, 2020, 03:38:44 PM
These far away shots are not a wise choice to use for this scrutiny, but to zoom in on the Emissary I actually referenced in this thread and you'll see the Emissary is clearly larger.



But if you look Fugitive ginormous head with mouth folds, you can't even see his neck.



But good old Stan.... a neck and proportion!



Now the other Emissary, I'm not certain that Crabator was designed to vastly open it's mouth.



This is not trick photography making these no-neck heads look big. They're just big.



Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 21, 2020, 06:24:23 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 21, 2020, 05:26:55 PM
Voodoo is just happy the female Pred is not a Crabator.

Damn straight!



Quote from: JokersWarPig on Jan 21, 2020, 05:58:32 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 20, 2020, 03:27:10 PM


And check out how her dreads are done in the back...



I love this, I can tell its female but its not that different from what we've already seen.

Yes, agreed!

I do appreciate there was a lot of consideration taken with her:


  • "The design for the female Predator took considerable time as Fox was very heavily involved in process. It involved a great deal of back and forth changing elements, but Illfonic is very proud of what they've achieved with her."


Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 05, 2019, 10:21:03 PM
Quote from: Shinawi on Nov 05, 2019, 10:01:40 PM
When Scar revealed his face to Lex

#JustSayNo

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8a/ce/21/8ace21d7219e19074b9910231a634fc0.gif

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d6/04/ec/d604ecaffad34bc5b57e2c4ac0d0225b.gif

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 29, 2020, 07:58:51 PM
Quote from: Sol on Nov 29, 2020, 07:42:01 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 29, 2020, 06:54:32 PM
I didn't see much of a flap problem with KNB.

https://i.imgur.com/Dh0VuYB.png

I didn't say I didn't see any. Yes, when comparing ADI and KNB, again I'll say "I didn't see much of a flap problem with KNB." And I still don't. Not like ADI's awkward rolls and pencil holders.  :)





Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Aug 26, 2020, 02:26:42 PM
Quote from: SiL on Aug 26, 2020, 01:12:32 PM
ADI are Oscar winners because people have thought they were the best at their craft on different projects. They've created some of the most memorable and effective creature effects of the last 30 years.

They've employed many of the same people who worked at SWS and other major effects houses over the decades.

Forget employed. The ADI founders came from Stan Winston Studio for a year or two before leaving to form their own company.

And I'm aware of their Academy Award for their mixing of practical and cg in Death Becomes Her (fun movie by the way). Awards don't mean too much to me personally. For example, it's a crime that Rob Bottin has never won an Oscar - and it also has factors of your competition that particular year. Fx is a small market.

QuoteI'm not a big fan of a lot of their design choices but they're not amateurs and they're far from incompetent.

Don't turn this into a strawman argument. No one said these words "amateurs" or "incompetent", but I stand behind my feelings that in 2004 in regards to Scar, "Every aspect of Scar to me was inferior, even his paint application, which just screamed out to me during the release of AvP a lower degree of experience and/or talent". I was simply reacting to the work:





https://i.ibb.co/NLn8D1G/proxy.jpg

And I'm not a big fan of many of their design choices in general either, which is why I feel they'll never be considered the best of the best with the likes of Stan Winston in a hundred years. They won't be on the Mount Rushmore of Practical FX guys in my humble opinion. But it's a small industry, and they have to be talented in such a small industry just to thrive / later survive. Clearly.

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 25, 2020, 01:56:16 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 25, 2020, 02:33:27 AM
Is Voodoo the foremost pundit on crabators?

Quote from: Kradan on May 25, 2020, 09:41:35 AM
He claims to be one

Of course! I coined the term!

But yes... no "x" mandibles, straightened brows, broken jaws, they meet and exceed the requirement to be deemed a Crustacean Predator!

Also I can't take these big heads! I lined up both eye pupils on the Stan Winston design and ADI design, then halved it.





I miss the days when we had Predator makers that understood proportion!

https://i.ibb.co/25XxnWz/Predator25.jpg

#SayNoToCrabators

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 05, 2020, 04:51:20 PM


Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 17, 2019, 02:44:58 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Nov 16, 2019, 11:40:18 PM
You all know Voodoo will come inspecting for Crabators in your memes.

It's only a matter of time.

https://66.media.tumblr.com/64352324ad3cd1dd024ec53f1fdf2813/tumblr_pahhahuDGy1se0jzho1_500.gif


Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Nov 17, 2019, 01:48:24 AM
What are Crabators? is it something like a nickname for Preds?

What??? Have you learned nothing from me??? Have you learned nothing about those horrible, horrible Crustacean Hunters from outer space ???







Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 10, 2019, 09:24:24 PM
Quote from: Master on Oct 10, 2019, 09:19:10 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Oct 09, 2019, 08:49:58 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 09, 2019, 02:32:57 PM
I agree. Some practical fx of the Upgrade would have been nice.

One positive note is, even as a full CG creation, the Upgrade Predator doesn't have the disappointing ADI broken jaw look. It actually reminds me of KNB's work.



Indeed

KNB Predators had mandibles movement, but couldn't close opened mouth.

Yet still a step up from ADI's Crabators I think...



Vs



Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jun 21, 2019, 08:42:55 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Jun 21, 2019, 08:25:02 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jun 21, 2019, 05:28:28 PM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Jun 21, 2019, 05:25:36 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Jun 21, 2019, 05:02:22 PM
a conversation between creator and enraged fan

If someone needs an enraged fan to co-host a Shane Black interview I'm here you know.

Same goes with me and ADI. Someone needs to answer for those Crabators!

"Welcome to the AvPGalaxy podcast, venting edition."

https://media.giphy.com/media/76RAzMnxCOWDS/giphy.gif



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdeptHopefulCanary-size_restricted.gif

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 12, 2019, 03:12:59 PM
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Mar 12, 2019, 02:25:58 PM
I don't believe it's exactly ADI's fault considering they're just doing as they're told. You can have all the personal dignity in the world but you'd never work again so I don't blame them for going with it.

I do respect that they acknowledge they really only got Wolf right.
However the issue isn't so much ADI as much as it is the directors and producers who at the end of the day are the ones calling the shots. ADI really doesn't have that much say in the matter regarding what the director wants and what makes it to screen. When you're brought on to do FX you're basically a hired gun. Director vision and the money allotted is going to be the biggest impediments, and we know that from Wolf, Fugitive, what little we've seen of the Emissary that they do just fine on Predator FX.


When Alec @ ADI was asked about the broken jaw, slack-jawed look of their Predators compared to the original beloved Stan Winston design, Alec answered the question with a question: Why do the mandibles have to close like they did in the first two movies?

Alec confirmed it was a creative decision, and after three films, with three different directors, you do have to consider the common factor: ADI. Especially when the CG Upgrade Assasin Predator mandible and jaws looked correct in "The Predator", even among his deformed upgraded self, but the ADI Predators in the same movie had the same broken jaw (Crabator) problem. We doubt Shane Black said "try to get the mandibles/jaw muscles right on the cg Predator only, people!" It would seem Black wasn't very invested in it either way.

We've relegated this change in core facial musculature to ADI's "stamp" on the Predator, for better or worse. And most of us feel worse. And I haven't even addressed the paint jobs.  :-\

https://66.media.tumblr.com/3ab7516e3eaa79a11367a3fedcc516b6/tumblr_nl7pj5D1nC1u1vwpho2_500.gif









https://media2.giphy.com/media/4olCC4plGHHyM/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c87cbf737624149633d62fa

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 25, 2019, 07:23:08 PM
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Feb 25, 2019, 06:19:15 PM
As bad as the plot is, Fugitive and even the Emissary Pred's look a lot more life like than the AVP preds

That's fair. The Fugitive was the best ADI created in my opinion, but the Fugitive, and two Emissaries still feature the gamut of design and to a lesser degree, paint problems:



Ironically, I would insist the CG Assasin Upgrade Predator came the closest / was the most faithful of them all in regards to Stan Winston's x mandible design. No slack-jaw, broken jaw bones there.


Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 23, 2019, 10:46:14 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Feb 23, 2019, 07:29:41 PM
Quote from: AhabPredator on Feb 23, 2019, 07:25:23 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 23, 2019, 06:38:45 PM
Yeah the actual predator faces were abysmal in avp.

Do you think Stan Winston would cringe seeing them? 🤔

Voodoo saying something about "Crabators" in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . .

It's...
The CRABATORS!



Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 23, 2019, 06:38:45 PM
Yeah the actual predator faces were abysmal in avp.

Someone buy this man a beer!!

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 03:05:53 PM
Quote from: Highland on Jan 04, 2019, 04:57:26 AM
Quote from: SiL on Dec 24, 2018, 04:33:48 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Dec 24, 2018, 04:01:06 AM
At no point does the predator 2 animatronic face ever look as bad as scars face in AvP.
His googley eyes when Harrigan is right about to chop his arm off. Looks like something out of the original Mad Max ;D
I never had much problems with the P2 face. I never stopped to think that it looked bad, not like every movie that ever came after it.

Even the Elders look 5 times better than anything else.

While I agree 100% with your feelings regarding the Predators looked bad after "Predator 2", specifically ADI's work in AVP, AVPR and The Predator (however they have shown improvement with each movie), how did you feel about the work done by KNB EFX in "Predators"?

QuoteI noticed something on re-watching the lab scene in The Predator. They make his mandibles act like a crab with little movements, the original never did this, they were just moving when he wanted them to move.

I noticed that too.

Another big problem, in my opinion, is the ADI Predators can no longer close their mouth, so to speak.  Here is a shot from Predator, Predator 2, and The Predator featuring all three Yautjas not roaring or speaking.  In ADI's design, it can't close it's mouth.



I think I'm safe in saying the general consensus of Predator fans is non-approving of ADI's changes, but even when it's brought up (much gratitude to The Old One), Alec from ADI dismisses the question.
[close]

I think that's enough to get the point across, eh ?

For comparision, I know there's a lot of people who dislike ADI's work on Aliens. Yet, I can hardly remember anyone complaining about it apart from Trash Queen throwing term "Snaliens" cople of times

Kradan, I guess this is somehow an attempt to embarrass me, that you caught me talking about it 14 times since January of 2019, and more than half of the time I didn't even bring up the issue but responded to it. Of course, you conveniently left out the times you brought it up. Becareful with this road your trying to take my friend.

Ill try this one more time with you...

ACM, Randy Pitchford, Crabators, egg barfing, egg morphing, Alien3 eggs, Alien skulls, AvPR can't see sh*t, Predator boobs, the murial, hybridization, City Hunters mandible problems, Predator autism, The Newborn, domes, Ridley's prequels, is AvP canon, David created the Xenomorph, etc. etc. etc. -  This all gets repeated over and over again in these forums and increases when it becomes relevant. And with a new Predator film coming, what fans want from the FX house becomes relevant. I did not even create the video, or start this thread, or contribute to the conversation until Thread Page #2 and you're on my case about it.

You don't seem to count how many times you personally trash AvPR and the Predalien, things I am fans of, because that would make your point moot. Just knock it off.

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