Just re-watched AvP 2004.....

[Samhain13]

Worst part is not making the chains that holded the Queen acid proof. If you can make the spears immune why not that? Risk the Queen escaping just because...? I know Predators like challenge but this is dumb, if they want to fight Queens they can just go off to Xeno Prime, this one was not meant for that.

Letting Scar fight her was dumb too, that wasn't part of ritual, the kid died for nothing, they lost a Queen and just watched instead of capturing her back. I wonder if they were planning to stop the rituals on Earth or something, would explain why they allowed Scar to blow up their 6000 year old pyramid.

[Wysps]

Worst part is not making the chains that holded the Queen acid proof. If you can make the spears immune why not that? Risk the Queen escaping just because...? I know Predators like challenge but this is dumb, if they want to fight Queens they can just go off to Xeno Prime, this one was not meant for that.

Letting Scar fight her was dumb too, that wasn't part of ritual, the kid died for nothing, they lost a Queen and just watched instead of capturing her back. I wonder if they were planning to stop the rituals on Earth or something, would explain why they allowed Scar to blow up their 6000 year old pyramid.

I've never really considered it, but when you think about it, it is sort of ridiculous.  I'm sure the writers thought it made for a "good story" and possibly a setup for a future sequel if they want to revisit the queen re-emerging from the depths, but it's not logical from the Predator's perspective.  Queens are a big deal in Predator culture.  Wouldn't they want to re-capture her, or all participate in bringing her down for the glory of the kill?

[Voodoo Magic]

Great points Samhain!

There was no much lack of thought, logic and previous Predalore*  that went into AVP. I guess that's Paul W.S. Anderson for you.

* Predator lore

[SM]

Worst part is not making the chains that holded the Queen acid proof. If you can make the spears immune why not that? Risk the Queen escaping just because...? I know Predators like challenge but this is dumb, if they want to fight Queens they can just go off to Xeno Prime, this one was not meant for that.

Letting Scar fight her was dumb too, that wasn't part of ritual, the kid died for nothing, they lost a Queen and just watched instead of capturing her back. I wonder if they were planning to stop the rituals on Earth or something, would explain why they allowed Scar to blow up their 6000 year old pyramid.

I've never really considered it, but when you think about it, it is sort of ridiculous.  I'm sure the writers thought it made for a "good story" and possibly a setup for a future sequel if they want to revisit the queen re-emerging from the depths, but it's not logical from the Predator's perspective.  Queens are a big deal in Predator culture.  Wouldn't they want to re-capture her, or all participate in bringing her down for the glory of the kill?

Why would they interfere in Scar's initiation?  They nuke initiation sites which get out of hand - which include Queens.

And from a story point of view, it would've been lame for them to swoop in a save the day.

[Wysps]

Worst part is not making the chains that holded the Queen acid proof. If you can make the spears immune why not that? Risk the Queen escaping just because...? I know Predators like challenge but this is dumb, if they want to fight Queens they can just go off to Xeno Prime, this one was not meant for that.

Letting Scar fight her was dumb too, that wasn't part of ritual, the kid died for nothing, they lost a Queen and just watched instead of capturing her back. I wonder if they were planning to stop the rituals on Earth or something, would explain why they allowed Scar to blow up their 6000 year old pyramid.

I've never really considered it, but when you think about it, it is sort of ridiculous.  I'm sure the writers thought it made for a "good story" and possibly a setup for a future sequel if they want to revisit the queen re-emerging from the depths, but it's not logical from the Predator's perspective.  Queens are a big deal in Predator culture.  Wouldn't they want to re-capture her, or all participate in bringing her down for the glory of the kill?

Why would they interfere in Scar's initiation?  They nuke initiation sites which get out of hand - which include Queens.

And from a story point of view, it would've been lame for them to swoop in a save the day.

Why would they allow a human to partake in that initiation to begin with (i.e. fighting the queen)?  I see no difference between them allowing an outsider to "help" with his initiation and them joining in the fray.  In the end, he's truly not doing it on his own.

[Samhain13]

Its all plot induced stupidity.

Anderson wanted a human-predator team-up and a Queen boss fight so he had included it no matter how. Not only it should be considered cheating because its a test to prove you are big boy that can handle things on your own, but did Scar seriously thought a girl with a spear would help him stab aliens to death? That's cute. At least with Dachande, Machiko had a gun and it was a survival situation. Scar just had to leave the pyramid, he killed an alien, got the marking and the plasma caster. You are a man Scar, now run for it dumbass.

Fighting a Queen wasn't part of the ritual, the 3 were there to fight human hosted drones, nothing more. The situation never got out of hand in any way. How many aliens were even alive at this point? Less than 10 and 1 angry Queen. There were hundreds of Predators up there. They can easily hold the Queen off and clean up the rest of the hive down there, they must have done the same in 1904, 1804... since there were no signs of previous hives in the pyramid despite the Queen laying eggs multiple times over the last thousands of years. So there was no reason to blow up the pyramid at all, if Scar had made it out alive he should be sent to keep Scarface company for all the crap he pulled.

[SM]

Worst part is not making the chains that holded the Queen acid proof. If you can make the spears immune why not that? Risk the Queen escaping just because...? I know Predators like challenge but this is dumb, if they want to fight Queens they can just go off to Xeno Prime, this one was not meant for that.

Letting Scar fight her was dumb too, that wasn't part of ritual, the kid died for nothing, they lost a Queen and just watched instead of capturing her back. I wonder if they were planning to stop the rituals on Earth or something, would explain why they allowed Scar to blow up their 6000 year old pyramid.

I've never really considered it, but when you think about it, it is sort of ridiculous.  I'm sure the writers thought it made for a "good story" and possibly a setup for a future sequel if they want to revisit the queen re-emerging from the depths, but it's not logical from the Predator's perspective.  Queens are a big deal in Predator culture.  Wouldn't they want to re-capture her, or all participate in bringing her down for the glory of the kill?

Why would they interfere in Scar's initiation?  They nuke initiation sites which get out of hand - which include Queens.

And from a story point of view, it would've been lame for them to swoop in a save the day.

Why would they allow a human to partake in that initiation to begin with (i.e. fighting the queen)?  I see no difference between them allowing an outsider to "help" with his initiation and them joining in the fray.  In the end, he's truly not doing it on his own.

But they'd still be interfering with a judgement call.  Once the fight is finished they can judge whether his actions deemed him worthy or not.

Which they did.  By honouring him and Lex.

What would it do for Scar's status if the others Predators had to come and save him during his initiation ritual?  I really don't think that's how those things work.

[Wysps]

I get what your saying, but IMO in the end it still doesn't make sense.  They kind of allowed Lex to save him, so in essence he didn't complete the initiation in the way it was intended.  I like how Samhain put it - he won by cheating at his own initiation, including an outsider into the battle.

[SM]

By blooding her, Scar didn't consider her an outsider.  Whether one likes the team-up angle or not, there were three Predators that went into the temple and they would've worked together to fight the Queen had they survived.  In that regard, Scar fighting with Lex - fighting a Queen hand to hand, no less - isn't any different to fighting the Queen and teaming up with another Predator.

If he cheated - they wouldn't have paid their respects and probably would've killed Lex.

[Wysps]

Right, and I think that's where the hang up is.  The representation of the Predators, how we know them to behave, doesn't quite line up with what we're given in the movie.  I'm for the most part OK with it, but I have to admit that it only makes sense for the movie, and not with the mythos of Predator culture from what we understood pre-movie. 

Would the group of Predators have considered it cheating?  I *believe* they would have, just based on what we've been given in the comics as far as representation goes.  It takes multiple Predators under normal circumstances to take down one queen.  I would imagine that, sticking to comic book guidelines, if a queen got loose, the others would immediately join in to try and contain it, especially since the object of the hunt wasn't the queen to begin with.  But that's pre-movie stuff.

And to add - I'm all for the team up, I liked it.  Not what I was expecting, but certainly enjoyable.  I've stood up for her many times  But I also have to agree with some of the critiques here, despite my loyalty to the movie.

[SM]

I don't think you can factor in any 'lore' from anything other than the other films.  And we'd never seen them go up against Aliens before that.  We know that a single warrior is regarded as a worthy addition for the trophy wall.

Lex and Scar took down a Queen, just as Machiko and Broken Tusk did in the comic, so I'm not sure they need to go all in just because a Queen showed up.  Queens are big but not the greatest at fighting.  If they wanted it alive, then yes, normal circumstances would be with a half a dozen Predators.

[Stitch]

Honestly, it's more of just an internal logic issue. They have spears that don't melt...yet their armor and wrist blades melt? I'm sure we can fansplain something but it's a legitimate whinge. And Predators are unfair cheaters anyway so...*shrugs*

I thought the reasoning behind that is the spears are made from alien armour, which would be it's nature be acid resistant, but the other stuff isn't.

[Corporal Hicks]

Are you thinking of Lex's spear, made from an Alien tail? Because I think the rest of us are talking about Scar's metallic spear.

[SiL]

You can find a rationale in weapons with range = acid proof, weapons without range = not. The ceremonial dagger may or may not be acid proof; by the time Scar uses it to carve up the Alien, the blood may have lost its potency as Bishop explains in Aliens.

Then you get the net...

[The Old One]

Yeah, or equipped without the highest quality gear as it is a test.