The unreleased material is seemingly being dumped from XBL. These images also come from the same Twitter account (https://twitter.com/lifelower/) as the previously leaked artwork which has been unofficially confirmed to be genuine to us.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BbU7dyBCQAA7GbM.jpg:large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BbU6_4tCYAA5mcA.jpg:large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BbU6p_ECAAAkYU1.jpg:large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BbU6PVaCcAA7YLk.jpg:large)
Not front-paging?
They do look pretty nice actually. The environment feels right.
Looking great, hopefully they are real screenshots this time unlike Colonial Marines, which for years showed us fake prerendered images.
In the final pic, in the background you can see the same white tube things which stick out of the wall in the Nostromo med lab - nice detail.
It also looks like confirmation that it is indeed played from a first person perspective.
Let's hope they have invested as much time in gameplay and story as in graphical attention to detail.
Aw yeah, Ron Cobb's semiotic standard and Japanese signs. They even put a little tropical island photo on top of the monitor in the last photo, that's a nice detail.
I *really* hope these are in-game screenshots and not pre rendered, as if they are, they are doing what i've always said most games lack in - focus. One of the few games that *have* done this was Killzone 2, whereby if you aim down the barrel of the gun, the gun became blurred/unfocused just like it would in real life rather than being a flat image with the rest of the screen, and from that top image, it looks like the focus is correctly on the motion tracker making the background slightly blurred ~ i LOVE this effect SO SO much, just makes it look real/movie like... im totally excited for this game!!
looks great but are they actual gameplay screenshots or cgi-prerendered shots....... ;)
Just noticed the shape of the life boat in the 3rd picture :-)
I'd buy the game to just walk around in environments like these.
Ok that looks great Visually.
If in engine this actually does look great, and nice to see there's not a clone or soldier in sight.
I wonder if this guy is getting these screens from a magazine source, one that is being put together now or isn't released yet.
Assuming these are not "bullshots" the quality looks impressive. Especially like the ladder reflections on the helmets.
He's getting them from XBL. Last year a bunch of unreleased XBLA titles got revealed in a similar manner.
I wonder if they'll run with the eagle-style Weylan(d) Yutani logo or whether they'll run with the 'Building Better Worlds' style logo..this has got to be at least 15 years on from the the events of 'Alien' at the very minimum (since we know Ripley had promised Amanda she'd be home for her 11th Birthday, and judging by the box art, Amanda appears to be between 25 - 30) so it could swing both ways...but judging by these screens, the station is old, probably the same age as the Nostromo, so I'd expect all the same visuals from the movie. ^^
On the speculation side of things, the most interesting part of this game for me, will be where the xenomorph is from.. if it is from the derelict, then that opens up possibilities for where this game (or future sequels) could go...maybe the damage to the derelict that we see in 'Aliens' wasn't caused by larva flow at all...perhaps it was direct sabotage by a certain individual to disable the beacon and prevent the ship being found again? ^^ Would make more sense of 'Aliens' and why a planetoid with no (known) natural resources is being terraformed... think about it.. At Ripley's hearing, she is told "there have been people there for over 20 years" and if I'm right about Amanda's age, subtract another 15-20 years from the 57, and you're left with a ballpark figure of 15 years during which time Weyland suddenly decide an atmosphere processor is to be built there. Perhaps the intention was for the colonists to be test subjects all along, to be hosts for new specimens for the bio-weapons division since they could no longer locate the ship from orbit? We know Weyland sent the Nostromo to that location, and it never returned...perhaps this station is a secret research facility of sorts? In any case, that'd mean Hadley's Hope was no random co-incidence in Weylands "Building Better Worlds" campaign, but rather, a means to an end... invest in and set up a colony of unwitting test subjects, and let their survey teams locate the artifact for them. Its win win for the company... bio weapons division specimens, a chance to collect raw data on the xenomorph in an isolated populated enviroment, (of course, they didn't count on the explosion of the atmosphere processor) and obtain an ancient alien artifact which may or may not be related to a previous investment by Peter Weyland ~ I really hope this game introduces lots of new lore to the franchise ^^
Quote from: ikarop on Dec 13, 2013, 01:01:10 PM
He's getting them from XBL. Last year a bunch of unreleased XBLA titles got revealed in a similar manner.
Ah sorry missed the explanation in your post... and in his twitter profile :P Not so quick in the mornings.
I'm curious to see how the Xenos themselves look. Or the human characters for that matter.
Jesus please let them use the Giger Alien design. If they do it will actually be the first time we have seen it in media since the movie!
Looks good! Though, they look pre-rendered to me, but still, very nice.
Quote from: Dowly on Dec 13, 2013, 02:15:42 PM
Looks good! Though, they look pre-rendered to me, but still, very nice.
If it's coming out on next-gen consoles, we're pretty much reaching that level of graphical fidelity.
Either way the new images look excellent.
somehow doubt they ingame
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 13, 2013, 02:30:16 PM
Quote from: Dowly on Dec 13, 2013, 02:15:42 PM
Looks good! Though, they look pre-rendered to me, but still, very nice.
If it's coming out on next-gen consoles, we're pretty much reaching that level of graphical fidelity.
It's possible, but looking at all those little reflections and such makes me think they are pre-rendered. Especially the last picture looks a bit too good to my eye.
Quote from: Xenoscream on Dec 13, 2013, 01:50:54 PM
Jesus please let them use the Giger Alien design. If they do it will actually be the first time we have seen it in media since the movie!
This!
But they'll probably play "rule of cool" and give it giant floppy tubes, dinosaur legs, ADI hands, and giant butcher blade tail.
If they're specifically using the 'Alien' license, I suspect they're going to stick with the 'Alien' design.
Quote from: Its_Auto on Dec 13, 2013, 01:02:58 PM
I wonder if they'll run with the eagle-style Weylan(d) Yutani logo or whether they'll run with the 'Building Better Worlds' style logo..this has got to be at least 15 years on from the the events of 'Alien' at the very minimum (since we know Ripley had promised Amanda she'd be home for her 11th Birthday, and judging by the box art, Amanda appears to be between 25 - 30) so it could swing both ways...but judging by these screens, the station is old, probably the same age as the Nostromo, so I'd expect all the same visuals from the movie. ^
If I'm correct those are wings logos on the cups on the third pic. It's hard to tell but there were wings on the Nostromo mugs, so it would make sense for the marking on these cups to be the logo as well.
It is strange that the tech is mostly from Alien, due time difference, which is probably greater than 15-20 years because the Nostromo is old.
Impressive.
Those look absolutely fantastic. And like Auto says, I really like the narrow depth-of-field.
I was on the fence about getting a PS4 right away, but if the actual game is gonna look like this, then I'm in.
Cool. I don't see one hint of James Cameron's rape of the franchise.
I like what I'm seeing. Now let me see more.
Quote from: Powerloader on Dec 13, 2013, 05:55:44 PM
Cool. I don't see one hint of James Cameron's rape of the franchise.
Let's hope it stays that way!
Quote from: Powerloader on Dec 13, 2013, 05:55:44 PM
Cool. I don't see one hint of James Cameron's rape of the franchise.
Interesting statement coming from someone with a username and profile picture from Cameron's only entry in the franchise...
Real or not, looks great.
Shame the story sounds so stupid.
I am not falling into this again. We all remember the first AWESOME GORGEOUS A:CM screens ever released, and we all remember the final product.
I want SCP Containment Breach with a Xenomorph.
Quote from: Choirboy on Dec 13, 2013, 06:03:19 PM
Quote from: Powerloader on Dec 13, 2013, 05:55:44 PM
Cool. I don't see one hint of James Cameron's rape of the franchise.
Interesting statement coming from someone with a username and profile picture from Cameron's only entry in the franchise...
Clever. :laugh:
I just chose the username and avatar at random. They mean nothing.
Quote from: WinterActual on Dec 13, 2013, 06:18:23 PM
I am not falling into this again. We all remember the first AWESOME GORGEOUS A:CM screens ever released, and we all remember the final product.
^ I don't want to agree, but I feel I have to. It's sad, considering the concept renderings look so great, to think that they'll all probably go to a crappy game. :'(
Looks like the picture with the cups might be in the medical room. Those glowing cylinder things on the wall were present in the first film in the labs. That thing in her hand looks like a precursor to the motion tracker from the second film, considering there's only one alien, I hope it useful in other situations. And those suits, the helmets look like the ones from the first film.
I doubt these are fakes, or even pre-renders. The technology is good enough to do it now, and they know they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they repeated the mistakes of ACM.
Quote from: thecaffeinatedone on Dec 13, 2013, 07:25:27 PM
Quote from: WinterActual on Dec 13, 2013, 06:18:23 PM
I am not falling into this again. We all remember the first AWESOME GORGEOUS A:CM screens ever released, and we all remember the final product.
^ I don't want to agree, but I feel I have to. It's sad, considering the concept renderings look so great, to think that they'll all probably go to a crappy game. :'(
Dunno, CA has been doing "niche" such (i.e. the TW series, not exactly AAA stuff). And after ACM, I think SEGA will be keeping a close eye on what's going on.
Like the look of this.
Beautiful screen shots and seeing as this is being released on next-gen consoles hopefully they're real too. :P
The only thing about this game that bothers me is how they'll set it up. Where did the Alien come from in this game? Is it just going to be a bad coincidence that Amanda comes across the Xeno? Is she going to end up visiting the Direlect and that's how they get an Alien? Or was she actively looking for her mother (I don't like this idea, it spoils alot of potential that she could become a dynamic character displaying emotion if she ever realizes it's the same thing that got to her mom).
The fact that they are fighting clones and soldiers suggest to me the company knows about the alien. They possibly planted it?
I do like the concept of playing as Amanda, and that she's in the story, but it does raise eyebrows.
I don't see why it would be any less emotional for her to realize the alien she is fighting is the same thing that got to her mom, if the story is about Amanda finding her mom (I hope that will in fact be the route theyre going with because thats the most logical way to justify Amanda's encounter with the alien).
Personally, with the premise already given, i like the idea most of Amanda uncovering some sort of Weyland Yutani conspiracy in her efforts to follow the footprints of the Nostromo. Maybe there could be themes of accepting death through Amanda's acceptance of her mother's disappearance. It could still be touching, assuming they don't f**k it up, which is a big worry of all of us I think.
I personally hope there's no big Wey-Yu conspiracy. That's a plot line that's been grossly overused in both EU and fanfiction, and makes the Company into something much too similar to the utterly and laughably ridiculous Umbrella Corporation from RE.
I like my Wey-Yu as it was portrayed in the films. No big conspiracies, no evil plots for world domination, just a corporate entity concerned with maximum profit.
Quote from: Dowly on Dec 13, 2013, 07:49:05 PM
Quote from: thecaffeinatedone on Dec 13, 2013, 07:25:27 PM
Quote from: WinterActual on Dec 13, 2013, 06:18:23 PM
I am not falling into this again. We all remember the first AWESOME GORGEOUS A:CM screens ever released, and we all remember the final product.
^ I don't want to agree, but I feel I have to. It's sad, considering the concept renderings look so great, to think that they'll all probably go to a crappy game. :'(
Dunno, CA has been doing "niche" such (i.e. the TW series, not exactly AAA stuff). And after ACM, I think SEGA will be keeping a close eye on what's going on.
Okay, okay, maybe I'm being a little bit too harsh, but can you blame me? And TW isn't too "niche-ey". You're also talking about real-time-strategy/real-time-tactics games vs a horror exploration game, which I'm not sure they have much experience in. Their games recently have been good, but not the best games ever.
However now that I think about it, the fact that Sega is going through with this to a developer with no seeming experience in FPS's is interesting. Either they're really interested in what CA is capable of or they think that we're gullible enough to buy a bad game.
Interesting... Looks like they're going with an HD version of '
Clone Wars' stylisation.
Quote from: Xenoscream on Dec 13, 2013, 01:50:54 PM
Jesus please let them use the Giger Alien design. If they do it will actually be the first time we have seen it in media since the movie!
Has, actually. Most notably, in the last AVP game's multiplayer and '
Colonial Marines'. There are quibbles with individual aspects, but the design teams were still aiming for it.
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Dec 13, 2013, 08:40:53 PM
I personally hope there's no big Wey-Yu conspiracy. That's a plot line that's been grossly overused in both EU and fanfiction, and makes the Company into something much too similar to the utterly and laughably ridiculous Umbrella Corporation from RE.
I like my Wey-Yu as it was portrayed in the films. No big conspiracies, no evil plots for world domination, just a corporate entity concerned with maximum profit.
I actually agree with you completely - I can pretty much say I hate the cartoonish evil representation in some of the EU stuff (considering most of the evil company stuff in the movies were done by individuals) At the same time, however, since I'm not really considering this movie level canon anyway (unless it really impresses me), I'd be interested in seeing their interpretation of the scumbag behind order 937 or other stuff related to Ash.
I'm not considering this canon with the movies, either. I just mean, from a narrative standpoint, I hope this game doesn't go into Evil Company territory. Something surrounding the Burke-esque scumbag behind 937 could have potential, though, without delving into Evil Inc. country.
Quote from: MrSpaceJockey on Dec 13, 2013, 08:28:42 PM
I don't see why it would be any less emotional for her to realize the alien she is fighting is the same thing that got to her mom, if the story is about Amanda finding her mom (I hope that will in fact be the route theyre going with because thats the most logical way to justify Amanda's encounter with the alien).
Personally, with the premise already given, i like the idea most of Amanda uncovering some sort of Weyland Yutani conspiracy in her efforts to follow the footprints of the Nostromo. Maybe there could be themes of accepting death through Amanda's acceptance of her mother's disappearance. It could still be touching, assuming they don't f**k it up, which is a big worry of all of us I think.
I didn't mean less emotional.
The Alien games are full of flat, unchanging characters, and for me it's becoming a turn off. I'd like to see Amanda encounter the alien, then later realize it had something to do with her mom, I don't care how. That way there can be some dynamic emotional progression with the character, we could see her become depressed, even more afraid, shocked, angry, something...
Think of Hudson, complete badass, right? Until he actually encountered the alien, then his attitude changed. That's the sort of thing I want to see happen in the games.
So I think that Amanda searching for her mom and knowing about the alien at the start is a wasted opportunity. The games have never been strong with their stories, emotional overtones and such (I remember watching an interview withe the writer for ACM, that guy seemed more concerned with selling the story rather than letting it sell itself. I've been in the publishing business, and I've met enough of his type to know they are trying to protect themselves because they know their work isn't up to par, and isn't going to earn them recognition, or worse, receive bad reviews. Across all board, novels, magazines, movies, ect, there's a strong standard of 'Get better or get out', everyone is replaceable, and I think that's what the ACM writer was protecting himself against).
In ACM, the guy and his girlfriend, when she died, he did change some, his motivation changed, but his emotions and attitude was basically the same prior to when it happened. A wasted opportunity. I just don't want to see that happen again.
Why would Amanda know about the alien from the start? She wouldn't, all she knows is that her mom went to space and never came back. So I'm imagining a story where Amanda looks for what happened to her mother, comes across the alien, THEN realizes the connection between Ripley Sr. and the xenomorph. I too would like to see more dynamic development in these characters and hopefully Sega will take opportunity of the potential here.
Quote from: MrSpaceJockey on Dec 13, 2013, 10:42:46 PM
Why would Amanda know about the alien from the start? She wouldn't, all she knows is that her mom went to space and never came back. So I'm imagining a story where Amanda looks for what happened to her mother, comes across the alien, THEN realizes the connection between Ripley Sr. and the xenomorph. I too would like to see more dynamic development in these characters and hopefully Sega will take opportunity of the potential here.
We don't know that, and that's partially what I'm saying. But I its possible that they would start with Amanda having some awareness about what happened to her mother, I'm trying to think of an example here but ones just not coming to me. Why would Amanda have to fight soldier and clones? Because she went somewhere in search of her mother? Something like that? I would Rather Amanda not be thinking of her mother at all, she's just a distant dream, lost twenty or something years ago. I'd rather she just be a character at the start that accepts her situation, instead of having this overwhelming drive to find her mom. Let the realization come in the story, not from the start, is all I am saying.
Now that I'm thinking about, don't let Amanda ever realize her mom faced something like the Xeno, that feels a lot more tragic.
Quote from: UDA on Dec 13, 2013, 10:57:51 PMNow that I'm thinking about, don't let Amanda ever realize her mom faced something like the Xeno, that feels a lot more tragic.
Goddamn. Yes... yes, it does!
Quote from: UDA on Dec 13, 2013, 10:57:51 PM
We don't know that, and that's partially what I'm saying. But I its possible that they would start with Amanda having some awareness about what happened to her mother, I'm trying to think of an example here but ones just not coming to me. Why would Amanda have to fight soldier and clones? Because she went somewhere in search of her mother? Something like that? I would Rather Amanda not be thinking of her mother at all, she's just a distant dream, lost twenty or something years ago. I'd rather she just be a character at the start that accepts her situation, instead of having this overwhelming drive to find her mom. Let the realization come in the story, not from the start, is all I am saying.
Now that I'm thinking about, don't let Amanda ever realize her mom faced something like the Xeno, that feels a lot more tragic.
Of course we don't know that, that's why I said "I'm imagining a story..." I'm not trying to disagree with you or anything and we both agree on the fundamental point about character dynamism.
I theorize that Amanda would face clones and soldiers because of her snooping around Weyland-Yutani archives (they wouldn't like that, and while I don't like the whole cheesy big evil company thing the EU likes to do, let's face it, is a common misconception that'll probably be in this game). In my opinion, I don't think Amanda's mother would be a "distant dream" to her. She was 11, I think that's old enough to still remember it vividly and young enough to be deeply affected by it. It shouldn't be far fetched for the story to start with Amanda looking for the truth behind her mother's disappearance.
Though, I don't know how I feel about the "not letting Amanda find out her mom faced the xenomorphs." Sure, that would be tragic, but
even though Sega probably chose "Amanda Ripley" just to have another Ripley, they might as well put that opportunity to good use and play with her identity as a story element - I think the plot should revolve around the fact that she's a Ripley, and if she never finds out her mother faced the xenos that would make the name Amanda Ripley pointless. Just my opinion of course.
Quote from: Powerloader on Dec 13, 2013, 05:55:44 PM
Cool. I don't see one hint of James Cameron's rape of the franchise.
THIS! :D
I agree with many of the comments above - Amanda should *not* know about the Xeno... I'd like to think the reason she is snooping and against soldiers is simply due to the figures not adding up - in example...the company telling the families of the Nostromo crew that the ship simply disappeared on its way back to earth and its whereabouts unknown...but Amanda has found evidence that the ship was diverted from its course on company orders.. leading her to believe that not everything is as it seems. Simple as that...no xeno, no conspiracy...a daughter seeking the truth to her mothers whereabouts and suspecting a possible coverup of the true facts.. perhaps found evidence of special order 937 (though doesn't know what it is) and the reason this station looks as old as the Nostromo is because this was where the specimen was to be brought? Soldiers? Clones? Sounds very bio weapons division to me :)
As for the alien - yes!! A thousand yesses to the person who said it should be based on H.R Gigers original design...not only that, it should reproduce the same way...cocooning victims in bio-mechanical growth causing them to undergo a metamorphosis into an egg...no queen, no ant-like hive structure... no sleek on-all-fours 'Alien 3 creature with added tubes' or alien resurrection design, and no fish tail...a true Alien, complete with semi-visable skull-like eye sockets in certain light and SILVER translucent head shell... make it scary again, not cannon fodder.... and for gods sake make it intelligent, not an animal...make it curious like it was about Lambert...hell, throw in the deleted crab-walk to make it creepy XD Its an alien...it doesnt need to conform to the animal behavior of every creature on earth :p
Quote from: Its_Auto on Dec 13, 2013, 11:56:40 PM
Quote from: Powerloader on Dec 13, 2013, 05:55:44 PM
Cool. I don't see one hint of James Cameron's rape of the franchise.
THIS! :D
I agree with many of the comments above - Amanda should *not* know about the Xeno... I'd like to think the reason she is snooping and against soldiers is simply due to the figures not adding up - in example...the company telling the families of the Nostromo crew that the ship simply disappeared on its way back to earth and its whereabouts unknown...but Amanda has found evidence that the ship was diverted from its course on company orders.. leading her to believe that not everything is as it seems. Simple as that...no xeno, no conspiracy...a daughter seeking the truth to her mothers whereabouts and suspecting a possible coverup of the true facts.. perhaps found evidence of special order 937 (though doesn't know what it is) and the reason this station looks as old as the Nostromo is because this was where the specimen was to be brought? Soldiers? Clones? Sounds very bio weapons division to me :)
As for the alien - yes!! A thousand yesses to the person who said it should be based on H.R Gigers original design...not only that, it should reproduce the same way...cocooning victims in bio-mechanical growth causing them to undergo a metamorphosis into an egg...no queen, no ant-like hive structure... no sleek on-all-fours 'Alien 3 creature with added tubes' or alien resurrection design, and no fish tail...a true Alien, complete with semi-visable skull-like eye sockets in certain light and SILVER translucent head shell... make it scary again, not cannon fodder.... and for gods sake make it intelligent, not an animal...make it curious like it was about Lambert...hell, throw in the deleted crab-walk to make it creepy XD Its an alien...it doesnt need to conform to the animal behavior of every creature on earth :p
I can live with everything said here.
That cover-up aspect is exactly what I had in mind. But what do you mean by "no xeno"?
Quote from: MrSpaceJockey on Dec 14, 2013, 12:25:04 AM
That cover-up aspect is exactly what I had in mind. But what do you mean by "no xeno"?
Ah sorry, i should have typed that more clearly...i meant no prior knowledge of the xeno on Amanda's behalf.. :)
This actualy looks really nice, then again though, so did this
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1228.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee450%2Fpoisonstrudel%2Faliens-colonial-marines-20110817073140350-3509292_zpsd74165b0.jpg&hash=50593e378047ed10a65ea071fa60fb9d0851a3e0)
Think I'm gonna wait until I see some reviews...
Quote from: MrSpaceJockey on Dec 13, 2013, 11:38:45 PM
Quote from: UDA on Dec 13, 2013, 10:57:51 PM
We don't know that, and that's partially what I'm saying. But I its possible that they would start with Amanda having some awareness about what happened to her mother, I'm trying to think of an example here but ones just not coming to me. Why would Amanda have to fight soldier and clones? Because she went somewhere in search of her mother? Something like that? I would Rather Amanda not be thinking of her mother at all, she's just a distant dream, lost twenty or something years ago. I'd rather she just be a character at the start that accepts her situation, instead of having this overwhelming drive to find her mom. Let the realization come in the story, not from the start, is all I am saying.
Now that I'm thinking about, don't let Amanda ever realize her mom faced something like the Xeno, that feels a lot more tragic.
Of course we don't know that, that's why I said "I'm imagining a story..." I'm not trying to disagree with you or anything and we both agree on the fundamental point about character dynamism.
I theorize that Amanda would face clones and soldiers because of her snooping around Weyland-Yutani archives (they wouldn't like that, and while I don't like the whole cheesy big evil company thing the EU likes to do, let's face it, is a common misconception that'll probably be in this game). In my opinion, I don't think Amanda's mother would be a "distant dream" to her. She was 11, I think that's old enough to still remember it vividly and young enough to be deeply affected by it. It shouldn't be far fetched for the story to start with Amanda looking for the truth behind her mother's disappearance.
Though, I don't know how I feel about the "not letting Amanda find out her mom faced the xenomorphs." Sure, that would be tragic, but even though Sega probably chose "Amanda Ripley" just to have another Ripley, they might as well put that opportunity to good use and play with her identity as a story element - I think the plot should revolve around the fact that she's a Ripley, and if she never finds out her mother faced the xenos that would make the name Amanda Ripley pointless. Just my opinion of course.
It wasn't intended to sound argumentative, I'm sorry if it came across that way.
I could live with the evil corporation thing, if it's done right, without overriding the cannon of the films. But it would make me a touch happier for the company to be largely a background part of the story, and not necessarily the driving force. I'm going to assume there's a company conspiracy, because of the presence of soldiers in the game. Just be sparing with it.
Who are these 'Clones' anyway? Was that said officially? I've been using the term as well and just now realized what that could mean.
Maybe I'm looking into that too much, but really, the concept of Clones could suggest alot of things. I hope to God they aren't going to Retcon Alien and somehow bring back people from the movies...
For those that don't know, I sent an email to CA asking them about Isolation, more specifically "will this be a genuine, polished Alien experience?" I outlined my concerns regarding the previous games under SEGA and how the franchise and fans both get hurt when shitty unfinished products are released with the hope that the players will somehow ignore the faults and love the game. I will gladly post their reply email, should they choose to.
The best parts of Aliens: Colonial Marines was when you had no weapons, such as being chased by that big alien and having to weld shut the doors behind you. It'd be good if they could make a whole game using that kind of gameplay.
Quote from: Powerloader on Dec 14, 2013, 07:13:37 PM
The best parts of Aliens: Colonial Marines was when you had no weapons, such as being chased by that big alien and having to weld shut the doors behind you. It'd be good if they could make a whole game using that kind of gameplay.
I'd like some sections like that, but the only problem I really see with the actual gameplay element is how replayable will this new game be? It's like watching the movie... after a few times it's not shocking or really scary anymore. A factor of randomness would be extremely welcome. Such as different items are available, or there are multiple fake hits on the motion tracker (caused from other in-game objects like moving fans or machinery). A linear story is fine but they should consider that extra surprise element of will there be enough ammo, or batteries for the flashlight/motion tracker (if that's even an option) or will my equipment fail and need to be repaired like in Dead Island.
Quote from: PRJ_since1990 on Dec 14, 2013, 06:15:27 PM
For those that don't know, I sent an email to CA asking them about Isolation, more specifically "will this be a genuine, polished Alien experience?" I outlined my concerns regarding the previous games under SEGA and how the franchise and fans both get hurt when shitty unfinished products are released with the hope that the players will somehow ignore the faults and love the game. I will gladly post their reply email, should they choose to.
If that's the question you asked them, don't be surprised with the answer you get.
You could've asked Gearbox much the same and you would have received something along the lines of, "We're genuine life-long fans of the series and want to give it the respect it deserves."
Remember how they trumpeted stuff like spending time on trying to find exactly where to put Bishop's legs and the floor section the Queen took off to get Newt?
Which, ironically, I think SM proved wrong, anyhow... :laugh:
Well, well. Just when you thought it was going to be quiet for a while in this subject, all of a sudden the S hits the fan... and here we go again with the mass hysteria, the parade of expectations and excitement for the unknown. ;) What a present for Christmas from 20th/Sega, right?
I wouldn't get my hopes up, I remember seeing screenshots from Colonial Marines and hearing about the game for years, years before it was released, and what happened? Yeah... I can't picture how would this be all that much different, with "soldiers, clones". There is supposed to be one Alien, but then will be more also... really?
What I do like, however, is that they caught me by complete surprise by having Amanda Ripley in this. This is so simple and genius, and yet nobody has thought about this before them, have they? Now when you think about it, she's obviously a mystery in the franchise and really nobody ever bothered asking any more questions about Ripley's daughter. Look how easily Burke could have fooled us. Come to think of it, since Burke was the person to inform Ripley of her daughter's death, can we even still be sure she really passed away from natural causes?...
This premise definitely has the potential to make for a game that people will actually want to be considered canon!
Quote from: PRJ_since1990 on Dec 14, 2013, 09:10:06 PMhow replayable will this new game be? It's like watching the movie... after a few times it's not shocking or really scary anymore. A factor of randomness would be extremely welcome.
I said it better in another post around here somewhere, but I've always felt that a randomly-generating space station map could work so well toward this end. It could be played like we're new there, so we don't know where everything is supposed to be, anyway (as will probably be exactly the case with Amanda).
But I suspect the days of talking about what we want out of the game (and hoping CA will hear and oblige) are long over. There's only hope, now! :)
I like what I see. Lets just hope its not shit like A:CM. Other than that im looking forward to this now that we got something flowing fake or not.
Wow, these are impressive. Hopefully they're actual in-game screenshots. I love the atmosphere and attention to detail.
Quote from: Its_Auto on Dec 13, 2013, 11:02:18 AM
I *really* hope these are in-game screenshots and not pre rendered, as if they are, they are doing what i've always said most games lack in - focus. One of the few games that *have* done this was Killzone 2, whereby if you aim down the barrel of the gun, the gun became blurred/unfocused just like it would in real life rather than being a flat image with the rest of the screen, and from that top image, it looks like the focus is correctly on the motion tracker making the background slightly blurred ~ i LOVE this effect SO SO much, just makes it look real/movie like... im totally excited for this game!!
I'm with you on this. When done right, it really does add to the immersion.
When I hear "clones" it makes me think of resurrection. I hope this is NOT the case, but what if the 'twist' is that Amanda ripley is not really Amanda ripley, but a ripley clone leftover from alien resurrection and relocated to a remote space station....
I hope not, but that was the thought that popped into my head...
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 15, 2013, 04:54:23 AM
When I hear "clones" it makes me think of resurrection. I hope this is NOT the case, but what if the 'twist' is that Amanda ripley is not really Amanda ripley, but a ripley clone leftover from alien resurrection and relocated to a remote space station....
I hope not, but that was the thought that popped into my head...
The tech looks very Alien-era, so I doubt it.
Looks grand, let's hope the quality level can be maintained.
Quote from: Powerloader on Dec 15, 2013, 08:30:43 AM
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 15, 2013, 04:54:23 AM
When I hear "clones" it makes me think of resurrection. I hope this is NOT the case, but what if the 'twist' is that Amanda ripley is not really Amanda ripley, but a ripley clone leftover from alien resurrection and relocated to a remote space station....
I hope not, but that was the thought that popped into my head...
The tech looks very Alien-era, so I doubt it.
Yes, I noticed that too... But the whole clone thing really just bugs me. I really hope it has nothing to do with resurrection...
Quote from: Powerloader on Dec 15, 2013, 08:30:43 AM
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 15, 2013, 04:54:23 AM
When I hear "clones" it makes me think of resurrection. I hope this is NOT the case, but what if the 'twist' is that Amanda ripley is not really Amanda ripley, but a ripley clone leftover from alien resurrection and relocated to a remote space station....
I hope not, but that was the thought that popped into my head...
The tech looks very Alien-era, so I doubt it.
I think he meant that the connection with Rez would be the "twist" - that clone Amanda would be in an old abandoned station from the Alien era but she would actually be in hundreds of years afterwards.
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 15, 2013, 04:09:02 PM
Quote from: Powerloader on Dec 15, 2013, 08:30:43 AM
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 15, 2013, 04:54:23 AM
When I hear "clones" it makes me think of resurrection. I hope this is NOT the case, but what if the 'twist' is that Amanda ripley is not really Amanda ripley, but a ripley clone leftover from alien resurrection and relocated to a remote space station....
I hope not, but that was the thought that popped into my head...
The tech looks very Alien-era, so I doubt it.
Yes, I noticed that too... But the whole clone thing really just bugs me. I really hope it has nothing to do with resurrection...
Probably doesn't have anything to do with Resurrection. They seem to be straying away from the sequels as much as possible, Rez would probably be on top of that list right below the AVP films.
Don't forget, the oft-quoted "clones and soldiers" line was originally said by a guy who 'knows a guy' at CA, I believe. He might have meant synthetics.
Quote from: MrSpaceJockey on Dec 15, 2013, 04:16:48 PM
I think he meant that the connection with Rez would be the "twist" - that clone Amanda would be in an old abandoned station from the Alien era but she would actually be in hundreds of years afterwards.
Then she'd be called 'Ripley 9' and we'd instantly know from the start, because of the identical likeness and voice.
So, not much of a twist which could be feasible. :) And, really, if that were the case? It'd be a selling point... Play as a part-Alien human with acidic blood and heightened senses/strength/reflexes for helping to solve puzzles. That kind of stuff.
Besides which, they weren't even expecting Ripley 8 to have her old self's memories. It's unlikely they'd replace them with her deceased daughter's for no real advantage.
"After all, they are emotionally inexperienced, with only a few years in which to store up the experiences which you and I take for granted. If we gift them with a past, we create a cushion or a pillow for their emotions, and consequently, we can control them better."
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR4OpYSd1ZlY0FqdZZl_J8Dxof5jRyDd2_j50cPw4Ex-wLmTkAc)
Maybe those clone soldiers are actually replicants. ;)
Those screenshots look nice, but the settings look too familiar. Don't get me wrong, I love the aesthetics unique to the Alien franchise, but we've seen space stations and LV-426-like colonies a lot already, so I'm hoping that we get some fresh places to explore. Something we haven't already explored in a Alien game or even the movies. It doesn't even have to be for a whole mission, it could just be a few rooms that resemble nothing we've already seen.
I don't know, I can't imagine any situation in which I would like the idea of clones.
I could see them doing something like Cloning Amanda, and that clone being the one you play as, and then later encountering other clones of her, making a huge test out a xenomorph encounter, a while conspiracy. I know I'm being negative here, but the more I think about it, the whole Clone concept just implies things I can't get behind. Maybe resurrection just let that bad taste in my mouth, but there's only so many reasons the narrative of the story would call for clones instead of synthetics or just more soldiers, and I can't think of one scenario that's appealing.
I'm actually okay with the familiar atmosphere. I thought the Colony in ACM was horribly done (not just because it wasn't as movie accurate as I would have liked). In this case I don't guess they're making an exact replication of the Nostromo, which if fine with me. We rarely get to see situations with aesthetics from the first movie, and I always thought it had the strongest atmosphere, right along side those gorgeous sets in Alien 3. Right now I don't care if they create original environments or not, I'm happy seeing those familiar computer screens, glowing things in what might be the medical bay, suits, ect. I kind of hope they would have a lot of the same signs and symbols that were present in the movie, small details like that (the sign of the person floating upside down, that stuff). If this is a ship and not a space station, I'd love you see the bridge, and maybe even the computer room where the Nostromo crew talked to mother.
Oh, and the areas where they were gathering coolant from, and the room (I don't recall what it was, but I refer to it as the Rain room) where Brett was killed. The aesthetics there were great, Giger or Giger like work was snuck into a lot of those shots, and it worked really well. Not asking for the same thing, but if they could tap into the spirit of some of those sets...
I think we're over-thinking the clones thing. Mr Clemens had a point about it probably meaning synthetics or something. If anything "cloning" would just be a cheap explanation of the grunts you'll be fighting and nothing more, I'd bet.
Hopefully the holdover elements in the screenshots are coupled with the sense of a 20-50 year time difference in terms of technology. I don't want it to be pure Alien the same reason I didn't like Aliens: CM for being pure Aliens. Maybe include the Alien 3 version of the interlocked W and Y Weyland-Yutani logo in addition to the Weylan wings. This isn't official canon at all but I imagined the Fury 161 base to be older than the colonies and such of LV-426, which would explain the more angular looking W/Y logo there as opposed to the blockier one seen in Aliens (and since Hadley's Hope is about 20 years old, my "fanon" backstory for Fury would place its creation around the timeframe of Alien: Isolation, so that logo would be appropriate) More of the Japanese kanji, as one of the screenshots hints at, would also give a better sense of the multi-cultural aspect of the company.
I too, would love to see a return of sets like the landing leg room (What you call the Rain Room is where the landing gear of the ship tucks into when the Nostromo is in flight - the alien is actually hanging off of the landing leg's "toes" when it attacks Brett), which, with its high ceilings and little lighting, had such an awesome Gothic feel that needs to come back.
I thought clones and soldiers is just a messy reference to all the Alien drones. It doesn't really look like they can clone people in Alien era. It was difficult enough in Resurrection times.
But that was because of the gene splicing the Alien does when it impregnates you.
Supposedly.
Yeah, their trouble wasn't in the technique of cloning, itself. It was in regards to trying to simultaneously encourage growth of the Alien organism and separating it from the human DNA.
Presumably, chestbursters must use the host's circulatory system for something which leaves waste traces of its own DNA behind, due to it being from a blood sample. Quite what, who knows?
Either way, this isn't about Amanda being cloned. It's about her going off in search of her mother's last known location and somehow getting involved in a situation where an Alien is then present (or possibly inadvertently unleashed by her own actions).
Again I hope you are all right, and that resurrection has NO bearing here.
But I do have a few more things to say about the possibility... Ripley clones inherited the original ripley's memories as a result of the alien-human genetic crossing, so what if they managed to perfect the cloning process WITH the alien embryo present, and completely separate human from alien. Then the clone would have none of those memories. In resurrection, it took them 8 attempts to get the alien and ripley clones close enough to being right to get what they wanted... But 8 attempts is pretty rapid progress if you ask me. Clone 9 or 10 could have been a perfect separation.
And a clone would explain the likeness to ripley, and naming her "Amanda" and calling her ripley's daughter would hide that fact to make it a surprise/twist. It wouldn't be the first time something like that happened in a sci if franchise/story. Just sayin...
Over all, I hope the "clone" comment was an inaccurate statement, and I hope they have a DAMN good explanation for why Amanda ripley is out in deep space and happens to encounter the same alien creature responsible for her mother's disappearance. I know the Nostromo was ordered to set down on LV-426, but I was always under the impression that the nostromo's computer AI (muther) had made that decision based on "company protocols," and that the company had no idea of the aliens on LV-426 until Ripley's deposition at the beginning of Aliens; hence why Hadley's hope had been there for 20 years without anyone ever knowing about the nearby aliens and derelict ship until Burke ordered them to "check out a grid reference." In my opinion, sure Amanda can go looking for her mother, but I don't think there should be any company conspiracies at this point, the alien would have to originate from somewhere other than LV-426, and the characters/events would have to be isolated from the company (prediction, I think Amanda will die a martyr just like ripley did in alien 3). Otherwise, the company wouldn't have been as oblivious as they were in the beginning of aliens, right?
How can Amanda die a martyr when she doesn't die until she's married and settled in Wisconsin at the age of 63? Speaking of which, I hope we don't meet any character named McClaren in the game...the story's premise is too on the nose as it is.
QuoteBut I do have a few more things to say about the possibility... Ripley clones inherited the original ripley's memories as a result of the alien-human genetic crossing, so what if they managed to perfect the cloning process WITH the alien embryo present, and completely separate human from alien. Then the clone would have none of those memories. In resurrection, it took them 8 attempts to get the alien and ripley clones close enough to being right to get what they wanted... But 8 attempts is pretty rapid progress if you ask me. Clone 9 or 10 could have been a perfect separation.
That would follow. Although if you go beyond the film, Wren has been working on the project for about 10 years, and the main clones were grown over the preceeding two years.
QuoteI know the Nostromo was ordered to set down on LV-426, but I was always under the impression that the nostromo's computer AI (muther) had made that decision based on "company protocols," and that the company had no idea of the aliens on LV-426 until Ripley's deposition at the beginning of Aliens; hence why Hadley's hope had been there for 20 years without anyone ever knowing about the nearby aliens and derelict ship until Burke ordered them to "check out a grid reference."
No, they were diverted to LV-426 via a special Company order. Doesn't mean they knew what was there, but they knew about the transmission.
Quote from: MrSpaceJockey on Dec 16, 2013, 12:24:40 AM
How can Amanda die a martyr when she doesn't die until she's married and settled in Wisconsin at the age of 63? Speaking of which, I hope we don't meet any character named McClaren in the game...the story's premise is too on the nose as it is.
I dunno who McClaren is... Lol, if it's someone in one of the alien movies, refresh my memory...
Amanda could die a martyr... Someone else already mentioned that Burke could have used a cover story about Amanda's fate when she spoke to ripley about her in the beginning of aliens... But then again, if Burke is using a cover story, he would know something about the aliens beforehand, which would go against what I was saying before about the company being out of the loop on this one... I'm not really sure what to think... I just hope they get things right and don't leave some huge gaping whole in the storyline...
"Amanda Ripley-McClaren... married name I guess."
QuoteNo, they were diverted to LV-426 via a special Company order. Doesn't mean they knew what was there, but they knew about the transmission.
The Nostromo could have diverted itself after picking up the transmission, if the AI was monitoring signals and made the decision itself based on company protocols... If home base picked up the transmission, and diverted the Nostromo, why didn't they send someone else to investigate when the Nostromo disappeared? Why was everyone in the conference room in aliens completely unaware of any signals, derelict ships, or hostile organisms? The explanation given by captain Dallas in alien always sounded to me like they were isolated from human decision making by the company regarding the signal they received. He said muther was "programed" to wake them and divert their course "should certain conditions arise," such as intercepting a signal of "unknown origin"...
Quote from: SM on Dec 16, 2013, 12:57:08 AM
"Amanda Ripley-McClaren... married name I guess."
Ah... Gotcha! Thanks.
QuoteThe Nostromo could have diverted itself after picking up the transmission, if the AI was monitoring signals and made the decision itself based on company protocols... If home base picked up the transmission, and diverted the Nostromo, why didn't they send someone else to investigate when the Nostromo disappeared? Why was everyone in the conference room in aliens completely unaware of any signals, derelict ships, or hostile organisms? The explanation given by captain Dallas in alien always sounded to me like they were isolated from human decision making by the company regarding the signal they received. He said muther was "programed" to wake them and divert their course "should certain conditions arise," such as intercepting a signal of "unknown origin"...
Special Order 937 says the Nostromo was re-routed to new co-ordinates. Someone within the Company knew about the transmission, then arranged for the next ship going anywhere near Z2R to be re-routed and make it look like Mother picked it up by accident. That someone was likely acting alone or in a very small group (same as how Burke was acting alone), thus ensuring no one raised any eyebrows when the Nostromo was lost in space. Hence the reason they went and unwittingly set up a colony on the Derelict's cosmic doorstep and no one in WY, or the ECA or the ICC knew about it 57 years later.
Sadly too many writers of licensed material assume there's this grand conspiracy from the Company - when the exact opposite is the case.
I still subscribe to the theory that Special order 937 is something programmed into the ship's AI. Again, if the transmission was received, even by an individual, back at earth why wasn't another ship sent to investigate after the Nostromo disappeared? The crew of the Nostromo started to translate the transmission and saw that it looked more like an SOS or a warning in less than 24-hrs after being awakened and diverted to LV-426. Someone back at earth, waiting for two weeks at least to hear a reply from the Nostromo, would have translated the signal within that time and clearly saw that it was not of human origin. So, that individual or small group of people would have sent in another ship to investigate a signal from an intelligence other than our own. I think the more likely scenario is that the signal was weak, and other natural sources of radio pollution (I.e., stars, planets, etc...) drowned out the signal. The Nostromo was able to pick up and distinguish the signal from all the other radio sources after passing by close enough to zeta 2 reticuli. Maybe even LV-426's orbital orientation with respect to the Nostromo's vector through space was ideal for the Nostromo to pick up the signal. That would also explain why the colonists living on LV-426 between 37 to 57 years later never heard the same signal... It was blind luck (err, blind unluck) that the Nostromo passed by close enough and oriented in the right way to "hear" the signal, thus provoking muther to initiate a pre-programmed Special Order 937 protocol. To each their own I guess...
QuoteI still subscribe to the theory that Special order 937 is something programmed into the ship's AI. Again, if the transmission was received, even by an individual, back at earth why wasn't another ship sent to investigate after the Nostromo disappeared?
Because that might draw undue attention and expose a special order that marked the crew as expendable - which is no doubt highly illegal. I don't know what you mean by "programmed into the ship's AI".
QuoteThe crew of the Nostromo started to translate the transmission and saw that it looked more like an SOS or a warning in less than 24-hrs after being awakened and diverted to LV-426.
They assumed it was an SOS, but "it look[ed] like a warning".
QuoteSomeone back at earth, waiting for two weeks at least to hear a reply from the Nostromo, would have translated the signal within that time and clearly saw that it was not of human origin.
Transmission times weren't that quick in the 20's. Based on Alien3, it took 57 years just for Ripley's final report to reach Fiorina. That aside, the more likely scenario was the Jockey transmission was picked up by an unmanned probe some years earlier then relayed to a Company office somewhere.
QuoteThe Nostromo was able to pick up and distinguish the signal from all the other radio sources after passing by close enough to zeta 2 reticuli.
Special Order 937 indicates this isn't the case.
QuoteThat would also explain why the colonists living on LV-426 between 37 to 57 years later never heard the same signal...
The Derelict was damaged prior to colonisation.
QuoteIt was blind luck (err, blind unluck) that the Nostromo passed by close enough and oriented in the right way to "hear" the signal, thus provoking muther to initiate a pre-programmed Special Order 937 protocol.
No, the Nostromo was deliberately sent to Z2R. No luck involved.
Ripley's final report wasn't received by fury, it was a recording that happened to be playing at the end of alien 3 for poetic effect. So that was not a 57 year transmission. The zeta reticuli system is 39 light years away, so it would have taken 39 years to reach earth (radio travels at the speed of light in a vacuum). I'm not sure where fury is located with respect to earth and the zeta reticuli system, but it would have to be 18 light years away in the opposite direction for fury to receive ripley's transmission 57 years later, and since ripley's EEV dropped her off at Fury at the beginning of alien 3 I think it's safe to say that fury 161 is somewhere between earth and zeta 2 reticuli, not 18 light years passed earth in the opposite direction. Therefore, ripley's final report was a recording, not a transmission.
Obviously, in aliens, the colonists and the company are communicating by some means which travels faster than the speed of light, otherwise it would have taken 39 years to hear a reply rather than 2 weeks. They never specify how they communicate, or how the ships travel at those speeds, to my knowledge. But that's not really important at this point.
What I mean by programmed is the company has a set of protocols which must be followed "should certain circumstances arise," and the protocol to be followed upon the discovery of a signal of unknown origin was code named "special order 937" and sent the Nostromo to investigate per that protocol. Companies and government agencies always have special rules to be followed under special circumstances. I would imagine the same being true in the future, and there would most definitely be a special rule for investigating an alien transmission. Your computer has special routines programmed into it to make it do certain things based on time-of-day or user requests. Muther is a much more advanced computer AI, so being programmed to wake the crew and divert to zeta 2 reticuli after receiving and an alien transmission is not far fetched. It just so happens the code name of this protocol is "special order 937," in my opinion anyway...
Now I haven't been following the discussion but I heard that the transmission at the end of Alien 3, while was there for poetic effect was also said to be from Ripley's report disc (she refers to in Aliens) that was just malfunctioning or something and playing that specific recording they already picked up years before. Forgot who said (theorized?) this though.
QuoteRipley's final report wasn't received by fury, it was a recording that happened to be playing at the end of alien 3 for poetic effect. So that was not a 57 year transmission.
It was received by the EEVs radio according to the script. Guess it bounced around a bunch of relays and will continue to do so. Point is, the transmission times mentioned in Aliens aren't necessarily indicative of what they were in Alien.
QuoteWhat I mean by programmed is the company has a set of protocols which must be followed "should certain circumstances arise," and the protocol to be followed upon the discovery of a signal of unknown origin was code named "special order 937" and sent the Nostromo to investigate per that protocol. Companies and government agencies always have special rules to be followed under special circumstances. I would imagine the same being true in the future, and there would most definitely be a special rule for investigating an alien transmission. Your computer has special routines programmed into it to make it do certain things based on time-of-day or user requests. Muther is a much more advanced computer AI, so being programmed to wake the crew and divert to zeta 2 reticuli after receiving and an alien transmission is not far fetched. It just so happens the code name of this protocol is "special order 937," in my opinion anyway...
Once again, the film shows us this isn't the case.
They DO have certain protocols and rules - Ash mentions them at the start of the film. 'Any systematised transimssion indicating an intelligent origin must be investigated' and if they don't 'total forfiture of shares'. It's written into their emplyment contracts. Kane knew about it. Parker and Brett obviously just signed it without reading too deeply.
A special order is, by definition, not a standard order. It was issued to Ash just for this mission only. And Ash was placed on board specifically to carry it out. He wasn't beamed on board from parsecs away just when Mother picked up the signal.
Quote from: SM on Dec 16, 2013, 03:18:49 AM
QuoteRipley's final report wasn't received by fury, it was a recording that happened to be playing at the end of alien 3 for poetic effect. So that was not a 57 year transmission.
It was received by the EEVs radio according to the script. Guess it bounced around a bunch of relays and will continue to do so. Point is, the transmission times mentioned in Aliens aren't necessarily indicative of what they were in Alien.
QuoteWhat I mean by programmed is the company has a set of protocols which must be followed "should certain circumstances arise," and the protocol to be followed upon the discovery of a signal of unknown origin was code named "special order 937" and sent the Nostromo to investigate per that protocol. Companies and government agencies always have special rules to be followed under special circumstances. I would imagine the same being true in the future, and there would most definitely be a special rule for investigating an alien transmission. Your computer has special routines programmed into it to make it do certain things based on time-of-day or user requests. Muther is a much more advanced computer AI, so being programmed to wake the crew and divert to zeta 2 reticuli after receiving and an alien transmission is not far fetched. It just so happens the code name of this protocol is "special order 937," in my opinion anyway...
Once again, the film shows us this isn't the case.
They DO have certain protocols and rules - Ash mentions them at the start of the film. 'Any systematised transimssion indicating an intelligent origin must be investigated' and if they don't 'total forfiture of shares'. It's written into their emplyment contracts. Kane knew about it. Parker and Brett obviously just signed it without reading too deeply.
A special order is, by definition, not a standard order. It was issued to Ash just for this mission only. And Ash was placed on board specifically to carry it out. He wasn't beamed on board from parsecs away just when Mother picked up the signal.
That doesn't change the possibility that the special order was pre-programmed into muther, along with 936 other special orders and however many other special orders there may be beyond 937 (assuming the number is in fact THE number of special orders). The films never clarify this, and the film never clarifies why ash was added to the crew last minute versus someone else. Yea, it could be a conspiracy, and ash the synth was added to the crew to carry out the special order... But in aliens bishop mentions that inclusion of synthetics on all spacecraft is standard practice 57 years later... Perhaps ash was part of a sort of pilot-study which was the beginning of this "standard practice" to include synthetics onboard all space crafts. I think this is where we will have to agree to disagree, because we can keep going in circles since the films do not provide sufficient information for one theory vs. the other. We each have our own perspective and there's nothing wrong with that. :-)
HOWEVER, there is one thing I do have to strongly disagree with. Ripley's final report. Definitely a recording which was part of her report referred to in aliens, like the guy who posted above you suggested. Ok, ok, let's say she sent it out as a transmission from zeta 2... It wouldn't matter how she sent the message since all components of the electromagnetic spectrum travel at the same speed in vacuum, the speed of light. Could be in X-ray, uv light, visible light, infrared, radio wave or microwave... It would still take 39 years to reach earth. The signal would have traveled in all directions equally as fast, and anyone anywhere within a 39 light year radius (including home base, earth) would have heard ripley's final report, including fury 161. Thus, the alien would have been known by EVERYONE listening for 18 years before ripley was found by the deep salvage team in aliens. But no one knew about the aliens until ripley's deposition to the board room. Based on the two week communications delay mentioned in aliens, they could have known about the alien for up to two weeks-shy of 57 years before ripley was found too since there was obviously some way of sending communications much faster than the speed of light. That would have defeated the purpose of Burke keeping things secret because it would have literally been universally known by that time. The EEV in alien 3 was part of the sulaco which we know had ripley's report on file, so it's much more likely that the EEV was playing ripley's final report from THAT file than it is that the EEV is picking up a relayed message that somehow NO ONE else heard over the past 57 years (plus the weeks between ripley's deposition to the board and her death in alien 3).
QuoteThe films never clarify this, and the film never clarifies why ash was added to the crew last minute versus someone else.
Yes it does. He was placed on board to ensure a specimen was returned. It's also quite clear that the secret mission was planned just before the Nostromo left Thedus and the special order pertains precisely to that secret mission, based on its wording.
QuoteYea, it could be a conspiracy, and ash the synth was added to the crew to carry out the special order...
That's precisely why he was added.
QuoteBut in aliens bishop mentions that inclusion of synthetics on all spacecraft is standard practice 57 years later...
It wasn't however standard practice 57 years earlier otherwise they'd all know that Ash was a robot.
QuoteThe EEV in alien 3 was part of the sulaco which we know had ripley's report on file, so it's much more likely that the EEV was playing ripley's final report from THAT file than it is that the EEV is picking up a relayed message that somehow NO ONE else heard over the past 57 years (plus the weeks between ripley's deposition to the board and her death in alien 3).
Too many factors involved to make an definitive assessment. You may be right.
However the script...
Quote183 INT. EEV. 183
Empty
Lifeless.
A broken glass tube where someone once slept.
Someone who made a sacrifice.
Someone who was victorious.
Then -- over the desolation
A ghostly echo...
White noise from deep space...
Then a crackling message, growing louder
A faint voice audible through static from a badly tuned radio...
Only her last words from Alien - emerging clearly
RIPLEY
This is Ripley, last surviving. member of The Nostromo,
signing off...
Voice fades out
To silence.
FADE.
...suggests you may not.
Unless you can show a screen shot the includes text or subtitles which clearly states ash was there from the beginning to collect a specimen, I stand by my theory.
Ash, being a synth, would have been programmed the same as muther. So he would have been pursuing that agenda whether he was purposely sent to collect a specimen or not.
And the fact the crew did not know ash was a synth is why I suggested it was a sort of pilot-study. Sending synths on various space voyages to see how things work out. It would have defeated the purpose if the crew knew he was a synth. That's why pilot-studies are conducted.
Not sure what you're trying to prove with the script excerpt... White noise does come from space, and any radio transmissions picked up today have background noise referred to as the cosmic microwave background radiation (the definitive proof of the Big Bang, if you believe in that). That doesn't mean the EEV wasn't picking up white notice from space just like any other transmitting device would, then start playing the recording of ripley's final report. The script is too vague in this respect, therefore, I still strongly standby the recording NOT transmission theory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q#)
what platform is this game for?
QuoteUnless you can show a screen shot the includes text or subtitles which clearly states ash was there from the beginning to collect a specimen, I stand by my theory.
SPECIAL ORDER 937
SCIENCE OFFICER EYES ONLYNOSTROMO REROUTED
TO NEW CO-ORDINATES
INVESTIGATE LIFEFORM. GATHER SPECIMEN.
(Note past tense - REROUTED)
Add that to Dallas saying he was cycled onto the crew two days before they left Thedus (which Riddles cut from DC because he thought it was too much of a red flag). A special order directed to the science officer
only, who was put on board just before they left to go near a region of space that the Company wanted specimens from. How much more obvious does it have to be?
QuoteAsh, being a synth, would have been programmed the same as muther. So he would have been pursuing that agenda whether he was purposely sent to collect a specimen or not.
Well, no. If he'd simply been programmed, SO937 wouldn't have been needed.
QuoteAnd the fact the crew did not know ash was a synth is why I suggested it was a sort of pilot-study. Sending synths on various space voyages to see how things work out. It would have defeated the purpose if the crew knew he was a synth. That's why pilot-studies are conducted.
All this is speculatory and irrelevant to the debate, however. It's also been suggested that robots were secretly put on ships to 'spy' on the crew performance - but that's ultimately irrelevant too.
QuoteNot sure what you're trying to prove with the script excerpt...
It specifically mentions the sound coming from a radio.
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 16, 2013, 04:52:19 AM
Unless you can show a screen shot the includes text or subtitles which clearly states ash was there from the beginning to collect a specimen, I stand by my theory.
Ash, being a synth, would have been programmed the same as muther. So he would have been pursuing that agenda whether he was purposely sent to collect a specimen or not.
And the fact the crew did not know ash was a synth is why I suggested it was a sort of pilot-study. Sending synths on various space voyages to see how things work out. It would have defeated the purpose if the crew knew he was a synth. That's why pilot-studies are conducted.
Not sure what you're trying to prove with the script excerpt... White noise does come from space, and any radio transmissions picked up today have background noise referred to as the cosmic microwave background radiation (the definitive proof of the Big Bang, if you believe in that). That doesn't mean the EEV wasn't picking up white notice from space just like any other transmitting device would, then start playing the recording of ripley's final report. The script is too vague in this respect, therefore, I still strongly standby the recording NOT transmission theory.
Everything you're arguing is basically what I was trying to get at. I didn't go so far as to get into the background radiation and the timing of the transmissions, but I never saw anything conclusive prior to Alien 3 that the company was aware and actively seeking the xeno. Even the colony infection in Aliens was brought on because Burk put the colonists up to checking out Ripleys story.
The other thing that I think drills the last nail home about this: Why didn't the company obtain a specimen prior to Aliens. Look at it from WY point of view, if you sent a ship to check on a signal, planted an android and never heard form them again, then wouldn't you at least send someone out to see if the Nostromo is orbiting the planet carrying a bunch of corpses? It didn't happen though. And why would W-Y go through the trouble of sending colonists to the planet years afterword, just to have them slaughtered? That's a pricey thing to do, when you can just send something similar to the commando team from Alien 3 to try and collect it? I can already hear somebody arguing that they would do it to see how the aliens fought, because they wanted them for their bioweapons division, but if they were going to do that why not plant another Andriod there? How come there's no recording of events at the Colony before the Marines arrived?
No, if the company wanted the xenomorph, or to investigate the transmission, they would have done it themselves, instead of plotting out this whole thing with space truckers.
The Nostromo happened across the signal.
They couldn't reach earth, remember? They didn't raise anybody, likely because at that point they didn't have the tech to do it, that means that the special order was already built into Mother.
Ash was an Andriod built for scientific purposes, his ambition, especially with the special order would be the default for him to go by in those circumstances, was retrieving a sample.
And if you think of the Alien as a new virus (like I said in another post), it would be best to collect a sample for study, because you don't know if this little pocket of infection will one day turn into a plague.
57 years later, Burk knew what the company would want with the Alien, and he knew he could get rich doing it.
If contact with the colony was lost, and the company knew something was up related to the disaster of the Nostromo, the signal and so on, they would be more incline to send more than just a handful of marines. Even if the Marines were successful, they would only destroy the xeno's, taking away the companies chance of getting one. So I'm incline to believe they did not know of the xeno's existence, or at least did not believe Ripley.
It wasn't until Fury161 that the Company recognized what was going on.
And that's the only time they sent a team remotely prepared to deal with what Ripley had described in to get a specimen.
Quote from: SM on Dec 16, 2013, 05:17:27 AM
QuoteUnless you can show a screen shot the includes text or subtitles which clearly states ash was there from the beginning to collect a specimen, I stand by my theory.
SPECIAL ORDER 937
SCIENCE OFFICER EYES ONLY
NOSTROMO REROUTED
TO NEW CO-ORDINATES
INVESTIGATE LIFEFORM. GATHER SPECIMEN.
(Note past tense - REROUTED)
Add that to Dallas saying he was cycled onto the crew two days before they left Thedus (which Riddles cut from DC because he thought it was too much of a red flag). A special order directed to the science officer only, who was put on board just before they left to go near a region of space that the Company wanted specimens from. How much more obvious does it have to be?
QuoteAsh, being a synth, would have been programmed the same as muther. So he would have been pursuing that agenda whether he was purposely sent to collect a specimen or not.
Well, no. If he'd simply been programmed, SO937 wouldn't have been needed.
QuoteAnd the fact the crew did not know ash was a synth is why I suggested it was a sort of pilot-study. Sending synths on various space voyages to see how things work out. It would have defeated the purpose if the crew knew he was a synth. That's why pilot-studies are conducted.
All this is speculatory and irrelevant to the debate, however. It's also been suggested that robots were secretly put on ships to 'spy' on the crew performance - but that's ultimately irrelevant too.
QuoteNot sure what you're trying to prove with the script excerpt...
It specifically mentions the sound coming from a radio.
All of this is speculatory, and can be argued either way. The ship re routed itself prior to the crew waking up, so of course it's past tense. There is nothing saying the science officer was put on board specifically for this task. To me, I interpret the SO937 as a set of routines activated under these circumstances for the ship to re route, and ash, being part of the same system was acting on his pre-programmed routines in the same way as muther. And The program was code named sO937, the same way a computer's programs have names. Dallas also specifically used the word "programmed" in the beginning of the movie shortly after consulting muther, referring to SO937 activating under certain circumstances. That's more proof to me than the vague text you referenced from muther above, which could just as easily be a pre-programmed set of instructions intended for science officer eyes only...
Radio, receiver, recorder, it doesn't matter what you call it. It's the same technology, based on "radio" waves... Which would have reached fury well before 57 years later.
Quote from: Space Sweeper on Dec 16, 2013, 05:04:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q#)
I'm restricted to using mobile devices (iPad, no computer at the moment) and this video is not viewable on mobiles I guess... What is it?
Arguing against SM is pointless, he's good at what he does
Quote from: UDA on Dec 16, 2013, 05:25:56 AM
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 16, 2013, 04:52:19 AM
Unless you can show a screen shot the includes text or subtitles which clearly states ash was there from the beginning to collect a specimen, I stand by my theory.
Ash, being a synth, would have been programmed the same as muther. So he would have been pursuing that agenda whether he was purposely sent to collect a specimen or not.
And the fact the crew did not know ash was a synth is why I suggested it was a sort of pilot-study. Sending synths on various space voyages to see how things work out. It would have defeated the purpose if the crew knew he was a synth. That's why pilot-studies are conducted.
Not sure what you're trying to prove with the script excerpt... White noise does come from space, and any radio transmissions picked up today have background noise referred to as the cosmic microwave background radiation (the definitive proof of the Big Bang, if you believe in that). That doesn't mean the EEV wasn't picking up white notice from space just like any other transmitting device would, then start playing the recording of ripley's final report. The script is too vague in this respect, therefore, I still strongly standby the recording NOT transmission theory.
Everything you're arguing is basically what I was trying to get at. I didn't go so far as to get into the background radiation and the timing of the transmissions, but I never saw anything conclusive prior to Alien 3 that the company was aware and actively seeking the xeno. Even the colony infection in Aliens was brought on because Burk put the colonists up to checking out Ripleys story.
The other thing that I think drills the last nail home about this: Why didn't the company obtain a specimen prior to Aliens. Look at it from WY point of view, if you sent a ship to check on a signal, planted an android and never heard form them again, then wouldn't you at least send someone out to see if the Nostromo is orbiting the planet carrying a bunch of corpses? It didn't happen though. And why would W-Y go through the trouble of sending colonists to the planet years afterword, just to have them slaughtered? That's a pricey thing to do, when you can just send something similar to the commando team from Alien 3 to try and collect it? I can already hear somebody arguing that they would do it to see how the aliens fought, because they wanted them for their bioweapons division, but if they were going to do that why not plant another Andriod there? How come there's no recording of events at the Colony before the Marines arrived?
No, if the company wanted the xenomorph, or to investigate the transmission, they would have done it themselves, instead of plotting out this whole thing with space truckers.
The Nostromo happened across the signal.
They couldn't reach earth, remember? They didn't raise anybody, likely because at that point they didn't have the tech to do it, that means that the special order was already built into Mother.
Ash was an Andriod built for scientific purposes, his ambition, especially with the special order would be the default for him to go by in those circumstances, was retrieving a sample.
And if you think of the Alien as a new virus (like I said in another post), it would be best to collect a sample for study, because you don't know if this little pocket of infection will one day turn into a plague.
57 years later, Burk knew what the company would want with the Alien, and he knew he could get rich doing it.
If contact with the colony was lost, and the company knew something was up related to the disaster of the Nostromo, the signal and so on, they would be more incline to send more than just a handful of marines. Even if the Marines were successful, they would only destroy the xeno's, taking away the companies chance of getting one. So I'm incline to believe they did not know of the xeno's existence, or at least did not believe Ripley.
It wasn't until Fury161 that the Company recognized what was going on.
And that's the only time they sent a team remotely prepared to deal with what Ripley had described in to get a specimen.
In response to everything you said... EXACTLY!
Quote from: PVTDukeMorrison on Dec 16, 2013, 05:50:16 AM
Arguing against SM is pointless, he's good at what he does
I don't doubt that... But what's wrong with a debate? Nothing hostile going on here, just a friendly debate. If SM finds the proof I'm looking for, I'll admit he was right and I was wrong... I just haven't seen convincing proof yet.
In fact I should thank SM. I never really put a whole lot of thought into the transmission times, etc... Until today. I'm even more convinced of my position now that I have. Lol.
Quotebut I never saw anything conclusive prior to Alien 3 that the company was aware and actively seeking the xeno.
Yep.
QuoteThe other thing that I think drills the last nail home about this: Why didn't the company obtain a specimen prior to Aliens. Look at it from WY point of view, if you sent a ship to check on a signal, planted an android and never heard form them again, then wouldn't you at least send someone out to see if the Nostromo is orbiting the planet carrying a bunch of corpses? It didn't happen though.
Whoever issued SO937 didn't want an order that contains the words 'crew expendable' getting out. And sending an expensive mission to a planet the Nostromo was supposed to be nowhere near would raise questions.
QuoteThe Nostromo happened across the signal.
No, the Company happened across it, and someone arranged to have the Nostromo look like it happened across it.
QuoteIt wasn't until Fury161 that the Company recognized what was going on.
And that's the only time they sent a team remotely prepared to deal with what Ripley had described in to get a specimen.
Correct.
QuoteAll of this is speculatory, and can be argued either way.
Not really.
QuoteThe ship re routed itself prior to the crew waking up, so of course it's past tense.
Your evidence to support this?
QuoteThere is nothing saying the science officer was put on board specifically for this task.
The only other option is that it was a coincidence. Which is silly.
QuoteTo me, I interpret the SO937 as a set of routines activated under these circumstances for the ship to re route, and ash, being part of the same system was acting on his pre-programmed routines in the same way as muther.
No. If that was the case it wouldn't be called a "special" order.
QuoteIn response to everything you said... EXACTLY!
None of which has anything to do with special orders or Ash.
Quote from: SM on Dec 16, 2013, 05:57:07 AM
Quotebut I never saw anything conclusive prior to Alien 3 that the company was aware and actively seeking the xeno.
Yep.
QuoteThe other thing that I think drills the last nail home about this: Why didn't the company obtain a specimen prior to Aliens. Look at it from WY point of view, if you sent a ship to check on a signal, planted an android and never heard form them again, then wouldn't you at least send someone out to see if the Nostromo is orbiting the planet carrying a bunch of corpses? It didn't happen though.
Whoever issued SO937 didn't want an order that contains the words 'crew expendable' getting out. And sending an expensive mission to a planet the Nostromo was supposed to be nowhere near would raise questions.
QuoteThe Nostromo happened across the signal.
No, the Company happened across it, and someone arranged to have the Nostromo look like it happened across it.
QuoteIt wasn't until Fury161 that the Company recognized what was going on.
And that's the only time they sent a team remotely prepared to deal with what Ripley had described in to get a specimen.
Correct.
QuoteAll of this is speculatory, and can be argued either way.
Not really.
QuoteThe ship re routed itself prior to the crew waking up, so of course it's past tense.
Your evidence to support this?
QuoteThere is nothing saying the science officer was put on board specifically for this task.
The only other option is that it was a coincidence. Which is silly.
QuoteTo me, I interpret the SO937 as a set of routines activated under these circumstances for the ship to re route, and ash, being part of the same system was acting on his pre-programmed routines in the same way as muther.
No. If that was the case it wouldn't be called a "special" order.
QuoteIn response to everything you said... EXACTLY!
None of which has anything to do with special orders or Ash.
My proof that the ship was re routed prior to the crew waking up is the whole movie!! None of the crew knew they would stop at LV-426 on their way home, wouldn't that have been on a flight manifest or something?
"Special" meaning under these specific circumstances, do this... Seems "special" enough to me. It's a code name.
Everything really is speculative. I have a completely different perspective with references to the movie same as you... Which makes things speculative. I'm not arguing that my side isn't speculative, in fact I admit it whole heartedly. Just trying to point out that your side is just as speculative...
Oh, and yea, I think ash's presence on the Nostromo was just as coincidental as the recording of ripley's final report playing at the end of alien 3. Lol. Coincidences are a common occurrence in tons of movies.
Except it's not.
I'm just taking bare facts from the film, without putting any spin on it.
QuoteMy proof that the ship was re routed prior to the crew waking up is the whole movie!!
Oh no, excalamation marks. I meant where's your evidence that "the ship re routed itself". If Mother had accidently picked up the signal, yes, she would've homed in on it and woken the crew. Except she didn't pick it up by accident.
Special doesn't mean it was sent while they were in route, it could have been contingency.
And if the company sent it, they could cover it up along with what happened on the Nostromo and still get answers about the source of the transmission.
How did the company know of the xeno if all they knew about was a distress signal that's not human? If that's the case, the special order would have to have been sent, but there's nothing to suggest, and even argument against the ability to communicate so quickly. They couldn't get in touch with earth. And even after the facehugger showed up, they didn't bother trying, maybe because the transmissions weren't fast enough, or because the tech wasn't there. So the special order doesn't make sense unless it's a contingency (pre-programmed).
it still doesn't make sense that the company would divert space truckers instead of fielding a more appropriate team if there was prior knowledge of the signal.
Quote from: SM on Dec 16, 2013, 06:09:59 AM
Except it's not.
I'm just taking bare facts from the film, without putting any spin on it.
QuoteMy proof that the ship was re routed prior to the crew waking up is the whole movie!!
Oh no, excalamation marks. I meant where's your evidence that "the ship re routed itself". If Mother had accidently picked up the signal, yes, she would've homed in on it and woken the crew. Except she didn't pick it up by accident.
Says you. The movie does not explicitly say one way or the other. Dallas does use the word "programmed" which is a fact plain and simple...
There's nothing more to say the ship automatically re routed than there is to say it was planned all along. Therefore speculation either way.
Quote from: UDA on Dec 16, 2013, 06:10:51 AM
Special doesn't mean it was sent while they were in route, it could have been contingency.
And if the company sent it, they could cover it up along with what happened on the Nostromo and still get answers about the source of the transmission.
How did the company know of the xeno if all they knew about was a distress signal that's not human? If that's the case, the special order would have to have been sent, but there's nothing to suggest, and even argument against the ability to communicate so quickly. They couldn't get in touch with earth. And even after the facehugger showed up, they didn't bother trying, maybe because the transmissions weren't fast enough, or because the tech wasn't there. So the special order doesn't make sense unless it's a contingency (pre-programmed).
it still doesn't make sense that the company would divert space truckers instead of fielding a more appropriate team if there was prior knowledge of the signal.
^^this
Sure if you want to completely ignore the context.
QuoteSpecial doesn't mean it was sent while they were in route, it could have been contingency.
Special means 'not standard'.
Quoteit still doesn't make sense that the company would divert space truckers instead of fielding a more appropriate team if there was prior knowledge of the signal.
It depends on what the signal contained. If it just said "Stay away! Dangerous organism!" then why not send some passing tug and if they find something $$$ and if they don't, you have no more costs than a late shipment. If it gave detailed info about the Alien, it makes more sense to send an expensive dedicated team, but then you have all the rules and regs about dangerous organisms and "nobody wins".
Quote from: UDA on Dec 16, 2013, 06:10:51 AM
Special doesn't mean it was sent while they were in route, it could have been contingency.
And if the company sent it, they could cover it up along with what happened on the Nostromo and still get answers about the source of the transmission.
How did the company know of the xeno if all they knew about was a distress signal that's not human? If that's the case, the special order would have to have been sent, but there's nothing to suggest, and even argument against the ability to communicate so quickly. They couldn't get in touch with earth. And even after the facehugger showed up, they didn't bother trying, maybe because the transmissions weren't fast enough, or because the tech wasn't there. So the special order doesn't make sense unless it's a contingency (pre-programmed).
it still doesn't make sense that the company would divert space truckers instead of fielding a more appropriate team if there was prior knowledge of the signal.
The special order was most likely sent to the Nostromo when they were docked in Thedus, then Mother used it as an excuse to drift 10 months off course outside of the normal shipping lanes. Hell it could've even been uploaded by Ash.
The Nostromo was most likely the closest WY vehicle that could be used to claim the find. When the Nostromo itself was destroyed trying to kill the Alien and there were no survivors WY most likely tried to cover it up to avoid the bad press. Otherwise Ash could've made some sob story up about what happened to the rest of the crew.
In between Alien and Aliens the beacon is destroyed by volcanic activity on Acheron's surface.
Quote from: SM on Dec 16, 2013, 06:15:41 AM
Sure if you want to completely ignore the context.
QuoteSpecial doesn't mean it was sent while they were in route, it could have been contingency.
Special means 'not standard'.
Quoteit still doesn't make sense that the company would divert space truckers instead of fielding a more appropriate team if there was prior knowledge of the signal.
It depends on what the signal contained. If it just said "Stay away! Dangerous organism!" then why not send some passing tug and if they find something $$$ and if they don't, you have no more costs than a late shipment. If it gave detailed info about the Alien, it makes more sense to send an expensive dedicated team, but then you have all the rules and regs about dangerous organisms and "nobody wins".
But weren't these "special" circumstances? Seems like that would call for "not standard" actions/routines to be implemented to me.
But who knew what the signal contained without translating it. Which they did, or started to do, in the movie. It was a warning to stay away. Probably intended for other space jockeys who'd already know what the dangers were, and therefore leave out the details of what the alien was. So, ok, send the space truckers, and one measly synthetic to investigate. Then never bother to return when they all disappear, which was a rather expensive piece of hardware ($42 million unadjusted dollars if I remember correctly). And if this organism was crew expendable, and they knew before hand that it was worth the lives of the crew, then why not the lives of a second crew? Why wasn't there at least a second set of space truckers sent to investigate? That's rhetorical. The answer would be speculation, ;-)
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 16, 2013, 06:22:39 AM
Quote from: UDA on Dec 16, 2013, 06:10:51 AM
Special doesn't mean it was sent while they were in route, it could have been contingency.
And if the company sent it, they could cover it up along with what happened on the Nostromo and still get answers about the source of the transmission.
How did the company know of the xeno if all they knew about was a distress signal that's not human? If that's the case, the special order would have to have been sent, but there's nothing to suggest, and even argument against the ability to communicate so quickly. They couldn't get in touch with earth. And even after the facehugger showed up, they didn't bother trying, maybe because the transmissions weren't fast enough, or because the tech wasn't there. So the special order doesn't make sense unless it's a contingency (pre-programmed).
it still doesn't make sense that the company would divert space truckers instead of fielding a more appropriate team if there was prior knowledge of the signal.
The special order was most likely sent to the Nostromo when they were docked in Thedus, then Mother used it as an excuse to drift 10 months off course outside of the normal shipping lanes. Hell it could've even been uploaded by Ash.
The Nostromo was most likely the closest WY vehicle that could be used to claim the find. When the Nostromo itself was destroyed trying to kill the Alien and there were no survivors WY most likely tried to cover it up to avoid the bad press. Otherwise Ash could've made some sob story up about what happened to the rest of the crew.
In between Alien and Aliens the beacon is destroyed by volcanic activity on Acheron's surface.
I've actually heard the volcanic activity bit before... I have nothing to refute that...
But if the company was trying to cover up the events of alien to avoid bad press, then they would have known there was something to cover up. Therefore, they would have known of ripley's survival... Thus making it the worst cover up in history... I know, speculation, right?
Then why risk letting a bunch of space truckers potentially screw it up? If they really wanted to make contact, why not send a team of andriods? The reasoning doesn't add up.
Ya know, sorry to reiterate what others have said, but i always felt the story behind 'Alien' was very clearly explained;
The science officer was replaced two days before leaving. The crew of the Nostromo had never shipped with Ash before.. i recall a conversation between Ripley and Lambert (i think it was a deleted scene) where they remark about being able to 'vouch for the others' (implying they had engaged in sexual intercourse with the other male crew members at some point, possibly on previous journeys, but none of them knew anything about Ash) Special order 937 was for 'science officer eyes only' and the instructions were clearly shown on screen. I've always taken it as it is... Ash knew his mission before he boarded the Nostromo.. he was sent there specifically to ensure a life form was brought back. That's what he had been put there for. If this hadn't been planned before the Nostromo set off for Earth, then why replace the science officer at all? They needed a synthetic...someone without emotion or feelings of remorse for the crew who would follow orders as instructed.
As for the warning transmission from the Derelict, in 'Aliens' you can clearly see the volcanic activity of the planet has literally caused the ship to crack/break down the middle... which would account for its malfunction.
Quote from: UDA on Dec 16, 2013, 06:56:06 AM
Then why risk letting a bunch of space truckers potentially screw it up? If they really wanted to make contact, why not send a team of andriods? The reasoning doesn't add up.
because they cant bring an alien lifeform through the quarantine with a science ship BUT if Ash let the alien infect the crew then separate the infected ones in time and kill the others or just kill everyone and make sure the alien is in safe place while only he is alive and can cover all the other's death and land on Earth thats why the space trucker choice
Quote from: szkoki on Dec 16, 2013, 01:00:14 PM
Quote from: UDA on Dec 16, 2013, 06:56:06 AM
Then why risk letting a bunch of space truckers potentially screw it up? If they really wanted to make contact, why not send a team of andriods? The reasoning doesn't add up.
because they cant bring an alien lifeform through the quarantine with a science ship BUT if Ash let the alien infect the crew then separate the infected ones in time and kill the others or just kill everyone and make sure the alien is in safe place while only he is alive and can cover all the other's death and land on Earth thats why the space trucker choice
One big problem with this... No one knew that the alien life cycle required a host organism until after first contact.
Quote from: Its_Auto on Dec 16, 2013, 12:13:08 PM
Ya know, sorry to reiterate what others have said, but i always felt the story behind 'Alien' was very clearly explained;
The science officer was replaced two days before leaving. The crew of the Nostromo had never shipped with Ash before.. i recall a conversation between Ripley and Lambert (i think it was a deleted scene) where they remark about being able to 'vouch for the others' (implying they had engaged in sexual intercourse with the other male crew members at some point, possibly on previous journeys, but none of them knew anything about Ash) Special order 937 was for 'science officer eyes only' and the instructions were clearly shown on screen. I've always taken it as it is... Ash knew his mission before he boarded the Nostromo.. he was sent there specifically to ensure a life form was brought back. That's what he had been put there for. If this hadn't been planned before the Nostromo set off for Earth, then why replace the science officer at all? They needed a synthetic...someone without emotion or feelings of remorse for the crew who would follow orders as instructed.
As for the warning transmission from the Derelict, in 'Aliens' you can clearly see the volcanic activity of the planet has literally caused the ship to crack/break down the middle... which would account for its malfunction.
That's one interpretation... I have stated my interpretation, and I recall reading/hearing somewhere that Ridley Scott wanted an element of fear associated with a computer making decisions without human input, sort of like HAL 9000 from 2001: Space Odyssey. That would support my theory that muther made the decision on its own, and Ash was following the same decision process as muther, but he was there coincidentally. The coincidence isn't far fetched, and not the only coincidence in the story arc... It's pretty coincidental that a colony was setup on LV-426 37 years later, it's coincidental that the alien decided to hibernate on the nostromo's escape vehicle just prior to ripley self destructing the Nostromo, it's coincidental that Clemens was a doctor on Fury 161 and was the best person to help ripley along after arriving, it's coincidental that ripley was impregnated with a queen during alien 3, the list could go on if you include Prometheus and resurrection but I prefer not too include those films, and I'm sure that there are other coincidences I have not thought of just yet. But my point is, they never explicitly state why ash was added to the crew just before the Nostromo left, so that's open to speculation/interpretation. My interpretation is different, but not wrong.
Oh and James Cameron moved away from paranoia of technology to paranoia of corporation. And I prefer to think of the alien showing some intelligence, perhaps even memory acquisition/inheritance from its host (kind of like they mentioned in resurrection regrading ripley-8), when it boarded the escape vehicle, rather than that being coincidence...
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 16, 2013, 02:01:49 PMAsh was following the same decision process as muther, but he was there coincidentally.
Engineer, by that logic, it's just as likely that 'Bob the Human' might have been the Science Officer on that flight... and what would
he have thought of Special Order 937?
Maybe I got lost in reading the recent comments. What exactly is being debated here? I was pretty sure most Alien fans were on the same page regarding Ash, Wey-Yu and Special Order 937. It was all planned. What's the question? How did they know in the first place? Pretty sure that's partially what Prometheus was trying to do, in addition to universe expansion. There are some loose ends and unanswered questions, but that's what happens when you have 4 + 1 films, with 4 directors and 2 side titles with different directors trying to tie in to the original 4.
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on Dec 16, 2013, 05:56:35 PM
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 16, 2013, 02:01:49 PMAsh was following the same decision process as muther, but he was there coincidentally.
Engineer, by that logic, it's just as likely that 'Bob the Human' might have been the Science Officer on that flight... and what would he have thought of Special Order 937?
No doubt that a human science officer would have completely altered the outcome of the movie. I'd imagine a human science officer would have acted out of self preservation... The way ripley did when she refused to open the air lock for Dallas, Kane, and lambert. But again, this is speculation and ultimately irrelevant to the argument.
Quote from: PRJ_since1990 on Dec 16, 2013, 06:13:26 PM
Maybe I got lost in reading the recent comments. What exactly is being debated here? I was pretty sure most Alien fans were on the same page regarding Ash, Wey-Yu and Special Order 937. It was all planned. What's the question? How did they know in the first place? Pretty sure that's partially what Prometheus was trying to do, in addition to universe expansion. There are some loose ends and unanswered questions, but that's what happens when you have 4 + 1 films, with 4 directors and 2 side titles with different directors trying to tie in to the original 4.
The quick and dirty version is, I have a different opinion based on the apparent lack of knowledge of the alien in the beginning of the second movie and the lack of direct incriminating evidence that ash and the company had an agenda prior to the nostromos course deviation. There's circumstances which might suggest a hidden agenda, I admit that, but they never outright say it, so it could be viewed either way... I prefer to think of it as there was no company conspiracy yet in alien because there was no follow up investigation after the nostromo disappeared, the board room attendees in aliens where skeptical of ripley's story, and the colonists had no idea the derelict ship was nearby until Burke told them to check out a grid reference after hearing ripley's story.
Quote from: PRJ_since1990 on Dec 16, 2013, 06:13:26 PM
Maybe I got lost in reading the recent comments. What exactly is being debated here? I was pretty sure most Alien fans were on the same page regarding Ash, Wey-Yu and Special Order 937. It was all planned. What's the question? How did they know in the first place? Pretty sure that's partially what Prometheus was trying to do, in addition to universe expansion. There are some loose ends and unanswered questions, but that's what happens when you have 4 + 1 films, with 4 directors and 2 side titles with different directors trying to tie in to the original 4.
I guess this is bringing out the conspiracy dissenters. Some of us believe there is enough evidence to buck conventional theory that the company would have been aware of the direlect, xenomorph, ect, prior to Alien. The lack of communication in the first film suggests that the Nostromo wouldn't receive the special order if it was sent from somewhere outside the Nostromo (Such as earth). We believe the company would have contingencies for encountering an alien species, but because the Alien was hostile, by default the orders would have been to bring back a sample (We used to actively seek out Ebola, though it's rarely found, worrying that it could become a plague. My suggestion is that the company would have done the same thing, or that the government had laws forcing the corporation to bring back samples for study). Also the fact that they didn't immediately freeze Kane after the facehugger was attached to him and they realized it had a tube down his throat makes me think that the company wasn't as on top of the situation as we previously thought. There's also the argument that if the Company wanted to check out what could potentially be a extraterrestrial, granted the SoS from the Direlect wasn't human, they could have fielded a better team than space truckers, so it's reasonable to assume that the Nostromo had first contact with the SoS, and then diverted automatically. Also, in Aliens, it was Burk that send the colonists to check out Ripleys' story, not the company. And if the company knew of the Xenomorph, and wanted a specimen like everyone body thinks was the case in the first film, why would they send Marines, who would be more likely to destroy every specimen they could find, instead of sending a more appropriate biohazard team like we saw in Alien 3.
We have to keep in mind that at the time these films were made, Prometheus didn't exist, so there could be some slight retconning taking place, and even then, we still don't know the outcome of what happened during prometheus? Did they ever send a rescue team? That sort of thing.
Basically, this all started with us wondering if the company knew about the Xenomorph prior, and whether that will play into the Story of Alien Isolation.
It's a fun debate.
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 16, 2013, 06:29:48 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 16, 2013, 06:15:41 AM
Sure if you want to completely ignore the context.
QuoteSpecial doesn't mean it was sent while they were in route, it could have been contingency.
Special means 'not standard'.
Quoteit still doesn't make sense that the company would divert space truckers instead of fielding a more appropriate team if there was prior knowledge of the signal.
It depends on what the signal contained. If it just said "Stay away! Dangerous organism!" then why not send some passing tug and if they find something $$$ and if they don't, you have no more costs than a late shipment. If it gave detailed info about the Alien, it makes more sense to send an expensive dedicated team, but then you have all the rules and regs about dangerous organisms and "nobody wins".
But weren't these "special" circumstances? Seems like that would call for "not standard" actions/routines to be implemented to me.
But who knew what the signal contained without translating it. Which they did, or started to do, in the movie. It was a warning to stay away. Probably intended for other space jockeys who'd already know what the dangers were, and therefore leave out the details of what the alien was. So, ok, send the space truckers, and one measly synthetic to investigate. Then never bother to return when they all disappear, which was a rather expensive piece of hardware ($42 million unadjusted dollars if I remember correctly). And if this organism was crew expendable, and they knew before hand that it was worth the lives of the crew, then why not the lives of a second crew? Why wasn't there at least a second set of space truckers sent to investigate? That's rhetorical. The answer would be speculation, ;-)
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 16, 2013, 06:22:39 AM
Quote from: UDA on Dec 16, 2013, 06:10:51 AM
Special doesn't mean it was sent while they were in route, it could have been contingency.
And if the company sent it, they could cover it up along with what happened on the Nostromo and still get answers about the source of the transmission.
How did the company know of the xeno if all they knew about was a distress signal that's not human? If that's the case, the special order would have to have been sent, but there's nothing to suggest, and even argument against the ability to communicate so quickly. They couldn't get in touch with earth. And even after the facehugger showed up, they didn't bother trying, maybe because the transmissions weren't fast enough, or because the tech wasn't there. So the special order doesn't make sense unless it's a contingency (pre-programmed).
it still doesn't make sense that the company would divert space truckers instead of fielding a more appropriate team if there was prior knowledge of the signal.
The special order was most likely sent to the Nostromo when they were docked in Thedus, then Mother used it as an excuse to drift 10 months off course outside of the normal shipping lanes. Hell it could've even been uploaded by Ash.
The Nostromo was most likely the closest WY vehicle that could be used to claim the find. When the Nostromo itself was destroyed trying to kill the Alien and there were no survivors WY most likely tried to cover it up to avoid the bad press. Otherwise Ash could've made some sob story up about what happened to the rest of the crew.
In between Alien and Aliens the beacon is destroyed by volcanic activity on Acheron's surface.
I've actually heard the volcanic activity bit before... I have nothing to refute that...
But if the company was trying to cover up the events of alien to avoid bad press, then they would have known there was something to cover up. Therefore, they would have known of ripley's survival... Thus making it the worst cover up in history... I know, speculation, right?
They wouldn't know about Ripley. If they DID know about her they would probably claim her in an attempt to figure out what was going on. Had they claimed her its more than likely we would have had an Aliens incident long before the incidents of the second film. They simply judged that it wasn't worth it and popped smoke on the entire situation. Sometime after that the transmission was cut off.
The something to cover up is why the Nostromo never made it back to port. Losing 42 million in adjusted dollars is going to raise red flags with the media when the Nostromo never docks. If it somehow came out WHY the ship was diverted and that the crew were expendable then its nothing but bad press for WY and some higher level executives are probably going to be sacked.
Now if Ash and the Alien made it back to whatever WY headquarters they were supposed to be going to, WY would have its ship along with a "survivor," to make up any story it wanted. Kind of like Burke in Aliens. Its just the world we live in. Six people dying in deep space isn't going to raise as many red flags as 7 people dying losing 42 million dollars worth of spaceship and cargo.
Despite many people's interpretation of Aliens, Burke acted alone. He wasn't part of a major WY conspiracy. The lack of knowledge about the Nostromo incident in Aliens only shows that it HAD to have been covered up. 57 years is along time to wait to get the Alien back. Burke took a gamble by sending Newt's Mom and Dad out to the coordinates that Ripley gave at the inquest. And lo and behold she wasn't a crazy woman. At that point Burke jumps aboard the Colonial Marine Corps mission to secure the claim and potentially boost his career.
It wasn't until after Aliens and Hadley's Hope falling and the Marine detachment failed to come home that the company was like, "Oh shit, everything that crazy woman said was true about the Alien!" and they sent their own merc team to secure the queen.
Truthfully I actually think that Aliens is somewhat at fault for all of this by setting it so far ahead in the future. Realistically I think a corporation would be all over Alien tech whether people died for it or not. But you can't really argue that it was anything BUT covered up when WY had no contact with the Alien between Alien-Aliens. Unless you want to add comic book stuff in there. You saw how they reacted when they learned there was potential for the Bio Weapons department to make a buck in Alien 3.
Some very good points. I'm at work right now, but later today I will reply with some more of my thoughts on all this. I just don't have the time to articulate a good response just yet. This is a fun debate and I'd like for it to continue, on friendly terms...
With that being said, SM, let me just say that in text formats such as this it's really hard to judge a person's emotional state. I hope you aren't taking any of this personally, or getting upset by my stance. I've seen your site, and find it very impressive. I can tell you've put a lot of time, energy and thought into the alien franchise which is something that I respect, commend you for, and appreciate. It really does help to enrich the community, and even though I might not agree with your perspective in its entirety, I can and do respect it. Just thought I'd make that clear. :-)
Its straight man. I see where your coming from and I DO find it much more likely that WY would try to covertly reach the Jockey Ship regardless of political damage endured back home.
I just think given the massive time gap between Alien and Aliens that there was indeed a coverup between the first and second films.
If Aliens happened say two years after Alien, I'd feel much differently.
Other than that the only disagreement I have is about Ash and his boarding of the Nostromo. Don't think it was coincidental.
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 16, 2013, 06:26:30 PM
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on Dec 16, 2013, 05:56:35 PM
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 16, 2013, 02:01:49 PMAsh was following the same decision process as muther, but he was there coincidentally.
Engineer, by that logic, it's just as likely that 'Bob the Human' might have been the Science Officer on that flight... and what would he have thought of Special Order 937?
No doubt that a human science officer would have completely altered the outcome of the movie. I'd imagine a human science officer would have acted out of self preservation... The way ripley did when she refused to open the air lock for Dallas, Kane, and lambert. But again, this is speculation and ultimately irrelevant to the argument.
Nope, totally relevant. :)
Relevant because it essentially refutes your hypothesis that Special Order 937 was really just 'Regular Order 937'. If the company was going to mandate such an important standard order (important enough to rate the "crew expendable" tag), why would they do so and just hope, if the scenario eventually arose, that coincidence would favour them with a company android who just coincidentally happened to be on board? Because if there
wasn't an android aboard, it would play out much like this:
SCIENCE OFFICER:
Captain, I probably shouldn't be telling you this, but I've just been notified of something called 'Special Order 937' - my eyes only.
CAPTAIN:
What is it?
SCIENCE OFFICER:
Well it seems we've been rerouted ten months off course, and we're supposed to go down to that planet and retrieve an alien lifeform and bring it back to Earth. Also, it appears the entire crew is expendable.
CAPTAIN:
Including you?
SCIENCE OFFICER:
Looks that way.
CAPTAIN:
Right. Okay, everybody back in the freezers; we're going right back to Earth and straight to the press.
End of mission, and potentially end of Company. Ash was there
specifically to see that the mission was carried out. Otherwise, it
wouldn't be. And at the end of the day, there's also this:
RIPLEY:
What was
your Special Order?
ASH:
You read it, I thought it was clear.
Not 'our' Special Order, not even 'the' Special Order...
your Special Order. If Ripley had gotten that part wrong, I've no doubt Ash would have taken a perverse android pleasure in pointing out her error.
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 16, 2013, 06:26:30 PMI prefer to think of it as...
Now this I can get behind. And with that, I leave you to your preferred thoughts. :)
But the Special order wouldn't have appeared until after the facehugger did, how else would the company know about the specimen? Remember, Ripley found it by override, but Dallas didn't (else, he'd have word with Ash). I don't recall Dallas talking to mother after the Facehugger appeared anyway.
And by Special it could meant that it's a hidden order, meant to be see only after certain situations arise. Contingencies. Somebody gets infected with a foreign disease? Okay, collect a sample and bring it back.
Kane would go into quarantine, they all would, but the specimen would still end up in company or government hands either way for testing. Like I said, the 'Special Order' is probably a mandate given to all vessels. They would have to have contingencies for those circumstances.
QuoteBut the Special order wouldn't have appeared until after the facehugger did, how else would the company know about the specimen?
The content of the transmission, which the Company received, translated and acted upon long before the Nostromo departed Thedus. The transmission was a warning about a hostile organism, and even if they didn't know precisely what it was warning against, it was still warning against
something. And the Company wanted that something to the death of their crew if it came to that.
QuoteKane would go into quarantine, they all would, but the specimen would still end up in company or government hands either way. Like I said, the 'Special Order' is probably a mandate given to all vessels. They would have to have contingencies for those circumstances.
Which again, stops it being a "special order". They already have contigencies. First is the clause in their contracts to investigate transmissions. Second is quarantine protocols. Putting that special order as a secret standing order on every ship is beyond stupid, as anyone who might think something was up can issue a command over-ride to find it.
QuoteBut if the company was trying to cover up the events of alien to avoid bad press, then they would have known there was something to cover up.
What they had to cover up was them issuing orders that their flight crews are expendable.
Beyond that, everyone is just going round in circles over really petty points about who knew what when and no one is willing to give any ground.
Que sera sera. :)
Quote from: UDA on Dec 16, 2013, 07:43:23 PM
Quote from: PRJ_since1990 on Dec 16, 2013, 06:13:26 PM
Maybe I got lost in reading the recent comments. What exactly is being debated here? I was pretty sure most Alien fans were on the same page regarding Ash, Wey-Yu and Special Order 937. It was all planned. What's the question? How did they know in the first place? Pretty sure that's partially what Prometheus was trying to do, in addition to universe expansion. There are some loose ends and unanswered questions, but that's what happens when you have 4 + 1 films, with 4 directors and 2 side titles with different directors trying to tie in to the original 4.
I guess this is bringing out the conspiracy dissenters. Some of us believe there is enough evidence to buck conventional theory that the company would have been aware of the direlect, xenomorph, ect, prior to Alien. The lack of communication in the first film suggests that the Nostromo wouldn't receive the special order if it was sent from somewhere outside the Nostromo (Such as earth). We believe the company would have contingencies for encountering an alien species, but because the Alien was hostile, by default the orders would have been to bring back a sample (We used to actively seek out Ebola, though it's rarely found, worrying that it could become a plague. My suggestion is that the company would have done the same thing, or that the government had laws forcing the corporation to bring back samples for study). Also the fact that they didn't immediately freeze Kane after the facehugger was attached to him and they realized it had a tube down his throat makes me think that the company wasn't as on top of the situation as we previously thought. There's also the argument that if the Company wanted to check out what could potentially be a extraterrestrial, granted the SoS from the Direlect wasn't human, they could have fielded a better team than space truckers, so it's reasonable to assume that the Nostromo had first contact with the SoS, and then diverted automatically. Also, in Aliens, it was Burk that send the colonists to check out Ripleys' story, not the company. And if the company knew of the Xenomorph, and wanted a specimen like everyone body thinks was the case in the first film, why would they send Marines, who would be more likely to destroy every specimen they could find, instead of sending a more appropriate biohazard team like we saw in Alien 3.
We have to keep in mind that at the time these films were made, Prometheus didn't exist, so there could be some slight retconning taking place, and even then, we still don't know the outcome of what happened during prometheus? Did they ever send a rescue team? That sort of thing.
Basically, this all started with us wondering if the company knew about the Xenomorph prior, and whether that will play into the Story of Alien Isolation.
It's a fun debate.
You seem to be my biggest supporter here... Lol, so don't take this the wrong way. But Burke was clearly working alone, at least initially, and he went to LV-426 with the marines because he's a coward! Lol. That's why the marines were there in the second film, well, part of the reason anyway.
Didn't he say that?
QuoteAlso, in Aliens, it was Burk that send the colonists to check out Ripleys' story, not the company.
Burke is employed by the Company, but wanted the fattest cheque for himself. As the colony was co-financed by the ECA, they would also be in for a cut if he "made a major security situation out of it". Make it look like they stumbled across it by accident - just like the first film - otherwise "there's no exclusive rights".
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on Dec 16, 2013, 11:11:58 PM
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 16, 2013, 06:26:30 PM
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on Dec 16, 2013, 05:56:35 PM
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 16, 2013, 02:01:49 PMAsh was following the same decision process as muther, but he was there coincidentally.
Engineer, by that logic, it's just as likely that 'Bob the Human' might have been the Science Officer on that flight... and what would he have thought of Special Order 937?
No doubt that a human science officer would have completely altered the outcome of the movie. I'd imagine a human science officer would have acted out of self preservation... The way ripley did when she refused to open the air lock for Dallas, Kane, and lambert. But again, this is speculation and ultimately irrelevant to the argument.
Nope, totally relevant. :)
Relevant because it essentially refutes your hypothesis that Special Order 937 was really just 'Regular Order 937'. If the company was going to mandate such an important standard order (important enough to rate the "crew expendable" tag), why would they do so and just hope, if the scenario eventually arose, that coincidence would favour them with a company android who just coincidentally happened to be on board? Because if there wasn't an android aboard, it would play out much like this:
SCIENCE OFFICER:
Captain, I probably shouldn't be telling you this, but I've just been notified of something called 'Special Order 937' - my eyes only.
CAPTAIN:
What is it?
SCIENCE OFFICER:
Well it seems we've been rerouted ten months off course, and we're supposed to go down to that planet and retrieve an alien lifeform and bring it back to Earth. Also, it appears the entire crew is expendable.
CAPTAIN:
Including you?
SCIENCE OFFICER:
Looks that way.
CAPTAIN:
Right. Okay, everybody back in the freezers; we're going right back to Earth and straight to the press.
End of mission, and potentially end of Company. Ash was there specifically to see that the mission was carried out. Otherwise, it wouldn't be. And at the end of the day, there's also this:
RIPLEY:
What was your Special Order?
ASH:
You read it, I thought it was clear.
Not 'our' Special Order, not even 'the' Special Order... your Special Order. If Ripley had gotten that part wrong, I've no doubt Ash would have taken a perverse android pleasure in pointing out her error.
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 16, 2013, 06:26:30 PMI prefer to think of it as...
Now this I can get behind. And with that, I leave you to your preferred thoughts. :)
Hmm... I sense a little hostility here... Lol. What you outlined is a hypothetical scenario which did not take place. That's what you "think" would have happened which is something I suppose I could get behind as well. Lol. But honestly, who's to say how a human science officer would have reacted in this situation. It's back to speculation here. I already proposed that a human science officer would have probably reacted out of self preservation... But who knows, maybe he would acted more like Burke and sought a possible payday at the crew's expense...
And yea, you got me... Ripley did say "your" rather than "our" or "the" when talking to ash about the special order... Clearly she was not freaked out and in a panic, thus in control of her emotions and choice in words. Lol. Again, Dallas used the word choice "programmed," can you explain why he used the term "programmed" rather than saying "the company issued an order while we were all sleeping..." And as captain, he would have had the power to see any special orders being issued on his ship, so he would have known whether it was programmed or an order received directly. At the time, no one knew what to expect of the alien organism, so there was not yet a reason for Dallas to cut the mission loose and head home regardless of special orders, programmed or otherwise... And if the captain of a ship was unable to view this special order, wouldn't he have reacted suspiciously, and cut the mission loose anyway? Just saying.
Quote from: SM on Dec 16, 2013, 11:25:04 PM
QuoteBut the Special order wouldn't have appeared until after the facehugger did, how else would the company know about the specimen?
The content of the transmission, which the Company received, translated and acted upon long before the Nostromo departed Thedus. The transmission was a warning about a hostile organism, and even if they didn't know precisely what it was warning against, it was still warning against something. And the Company wanted that something to the death of their crew if it came to that.
QuoteKane would go into quarantine, they all would, but the specimen would still end up in company or government hands either way. Like I said, the 'Special Order' is probably a mandate given to all vessels. They would have to have contingencies for those circumstances.
Which again, stops it being a "special order". They already have contigencies. First is the clause in their contracts to investigate transmissions. Second is quarantine protocols. Putting that special order as a secret standing order on every ship is beyond stupid, as anyone who might think something was up can issue a command over-ride to find it.
QuoteBut if the company was trying to cover up the events of alien to avoid bad press, then they would have known there was something to cover up.
What they had to cover up was them issuing orders that their flight crews are expendable.
Beyond that, everyone is just going round in circles over really petty points about who knew what when and no one is willing to give any ground.
Que sera sera. :)
Ok, so there's too much going on here for me to reply to everyone individually, and my capabilities to respond are somewhat limited since I'm using an iPad. So, I'm going to try to cover all my thoughts here...
SM, I'm quoting you specifically, because of your last comment... I could not have said it better myself. This is a circular debate, analogous to political/religious debates... But I still think it's one worth having. :-)
Ok, now, there is another idea I have had that I have wanted to post and get some opinions from others about, but I have not posted it yet because I was waiting for the window to open for it. I'm about to open that window, but bare with me, this could be long winded...
I agree that ash being onboard the Nostromo by chance is a big coincidence, but if the conspiracy theory is true, there is a bigger coincidence that lingers... Let's say, that the company DID know all along and specifically placed ash onboard to collect a specimen. The Nostromo disappears and a cover up takes place. I've seen in other posts some speculations about why LV-426 was selected for colonization, and the rational I read was that the company wanted to covertly "keep an eye" on the derelict ship... But why wait 37 years after the Nostromo disappeared to establish a colony? Let's ignore that. The colony has been there for 20 years when ripley shows up, making this at least a 20 year investment to "watch" the derelict ship. Why wasn't there anyone in that board room who was part of this 20 year to 57 year long investment/conspiracy? With that much time invested, wouldn't they want to protect the conspiracy and hear what ripley had to say? Then Burke comes along, hears ripley's story and acts independently to see for himself, yet these long time conspirators, which Burke was clearly not in the know with, allow Burke to put into action a series of events that would directly undermine their long term investment. Hmmm... That all seems much more circumstantial and coincidental than "ash just happen to be there by chance." And it would be awfully coincidental that these long-term conspirators felt the time was right and allow all of this to take place precisely when ripley re-appeared 57 years later.
Now onto my other idea I would like to here some opinions on... To me, the Nostromo was a lot like the miners during the American gold rush... They traveled vast distances to mine for ore. During the gold rush, lots of settlements popped up which were mining-towns and re-supply stations for trains. So, Hadley's hope could be an establishment for a mining town or a deep space re-supply hub as human industrialization stretched further into deep space. But why lv426 of all places? Simple answer goes back to ash... Ash reported to Dallas that lv426 had an atmosphere composed of nitrogen and other gases, right? Well, earth's atmosphere is composed of about 70% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and a mixture of other green house gases and trace gases. So, selecting a rocky celestial body for terraforming and colonization which already had a nitrogen rich atmosphere just makes sense! It would take less effort and money to adjust the atmosphere to be more earth-like and breathable, whereas another nearby planet or moon could have had a much different atmosphere requiring more work to be put in to make the air breathable. That seems like a much more plausible explanation for "why lv426" to me than the conspiracy theory...
Quote from: SM on Dec 17, 2013, 02:07:51 AM
Didn't he say that?
QuoteAlso, in Aliens, it was Burk that send the colonists to check out Ripleys' story, not the company.
Burke is employed by the Company, but wanted the fattest cheque for himself. As the colony was co-financed by the ECA, they would also be in for a cut if he "made a major security situation out of it". Make it look like they stumbled across it by accident - just like the first film - otherwise "there's no exclusive rights".
Oops! Yea I misread that, and I stand corrected... My bad UDA!!
QuoteLet's ignore that.
I don't think you can.
Once you do it's open slather for every half baked conspiracy theory, which all end up being blown out of the water when everything is taken into account and nothing ignored.
It makes no sense for the Company to sit on a discovery like the Alien AND involve the ECA for 57 years. Especially as we see how fast they can move when they really do know about the Alien in Alien3.
Only possible answer is they didn't know about it for those 57 years. SO 937 was written off as a bad call.
QuoteSo, Hadley's hope could be an establishment for a mining town or a deep space re-supply hub as human industrialization stretched further into deep space. But why lv426 of all places?
The original idea was mining as per the script. Hadley isn't fitted out as way station or dry dock with only a very small landing field. Additionally the only place it's on the way to, is Kappa Reticuli which is another 31 ly past it.
Quote from: SM on Dec 17, 2013, 03:41:39 AM
QuoteLet's ignore that.
I don't think you can.
Once you do it's open slather for every half baked conspiracy theory, which all end up being blown out of the water when everything is taken into account and nothing ignored.
It makes no sense for the Company to sit on a discovery like the Alien AND involve the ECA for 57 years. Especially as we see how fast they can move when they really do know about the Alien in Alien3.
Only possible answer is they didn't know about it for those 57 years. SO 937 was written off as a bad call.
QuoteSo, Hadley's hope could be an establishment for a mining town or a deep space re-supply hub as human industrialization stretched further into deep space. But why lv426 of all places?
The original idea was mining as per the script. Hadley isn't fitted out as way station or dry dock with only a very small landing field. Additionally the only place it's on the way to, is Kappa Reticuli which is another 31 ly past it.
With regards to your comment about the company sitting on a discover for 57 years... That's what I was saying all along, only that they didn't need to write it off as a bad call because they didn't know about it yet. Different perspective is all. They obviously wanted the alien pretty bad so why write it off, put a colony on the same rock, then go after the alien again 57 years later? That just makes no sense to me, and seems very unlikely. If you want something, you want it. It makes more sense to me that the Nostromo was an isolated incident that the company did not know about until ripley returned.
Ok, so based on the script Hadley's hope was a mining settlement... What are your thoughts beyond just that? Why colonize lv426 and not some other nearby planet/planetoid/moon to mine ores from? Conspiracy to watch the derelict? Or more cost effective to terraform based on atmospheric composition?
Oh hell no. Not falling for this again. Gonna wait 'till we see some reviews. I still don't like the inclusion of Ripley's daughter. Also, CA isn't immune to bullshitting: Rome II: Total War, anyone?
ADF talks about LV-426 having a lot of methane in the novelisation and that makes it a prime candidate for terraforming.
That aside, it's a planet with a decent atmosphere. Maybe they aren't very common. Over 300 planets had been surveyed, but not all of them would've been terraformed or be candidates. And the colony only has 157 people, and isn't a terribly big priority. I imagine proper colonies have thousands if not tens of thousands of people.
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 17, 2013, 01:57:47 AM
Quote from: UDA on Dec 16, 2013, 07:43:23 PM
Quote from: PRJ_since1990 on Dec 16, 2013, 06:13:26 PM
Maybe I got lost in reading the recent comments. What exactly is being debated here? I was pretty sure most Alien fans were on the same page regarding Ash, Wey-Yu and Special Order 937. It was all planned. What's the question? How did they know in the first place? Pretty sure that's partially what Prometheus was trying to do, in addition to universe expansion. There are some loose ends and unanswered questions, but that's what happens when you have 4 + 1 films, with 4 directors and 2 side titles with different directors trying to tie in to the original 4.
I guess this is bringing out the conspiracy dissenters. Some of us believe there is enough evidence to buck conventional theory that the company would have been aware of the direlect, xenomorph, ect, prior to Alien. The lack of communication in the first film suggests that the Nostromo wouldn't receive the special order if it was sent from somewhere outside the Nostromo (Such as earth). We believe the company would have contingencies for encountering an alien species, but because the Alien was hostile, by default the orders would have been to bring back a sample (We used to actively seek out Ebola, though it's rarely found, worrying that it could become a plague. My suggestion is that the company would have done the same thing, or that the government had laws forcing the corporation to bring back samples for study). Also the fact that they didn't immediately freeze Kane after the facehugger was attached to him and they realized it had a tube down his throat makes me think that the company wasn't as on top of the situation as we previously thought. There's also the argument that if the Company wanted to check out what could potentially be a extraterrestrial, granted the SoS from the Direlect wasn't human, they could have fielded a better team than space truckers, so it's reasonable to assume that the Nostromo had first contact with the SoS, and then diverted automatically. Also, in Aliens, it was Burk that send the colonists to check out Ripleys' story, not the company. And if the company knew of the Xenomorph, and wanted a specimen like everyone body thinks was the case in the first film, why would they send Marines, who would be more likely to destroy every specimen they could find, instead of sending a more appropriate biohazard team like we saw in Alien 3.
We have to keep in mind that at the time these films were made, Prometheus didn't exist, so there could be some slight retconning taking place, and even then, we still don't know the outcome of what happened during prometheus? Did they ever send a rescue team? That sort of thing.
Basically, this all started with us wondering if the company knew about the Xenomorph prior, and whether that will play into the Story of Alien Isolation.
It's a fun debate.
You seem to be my biggest supporter here... Lol, so don't take this the wrong way. But Burke was clearly working alone, at least initially, and he went to LV-426 with the marines because he's a coward! Lol. That's why the marines were there in the second film, well, part of the reason anyway.
I was poking fun at both of us. As best as I can tell you and are the ones who don't buy the established argument.
Quote from: SM on Dec 17, 2013, 04:42:30 AM
ADF talks about LV-426 having a lot of methane in the novelisation and that makes it a prime candidate for terraforming.
That aside, it's a planet with a decent atmosphere. Maybe they aren't very common. Over 300 planets had been surveyed, but not all of them would've been terraformed or be candidates. And the colony only has 157 people, and isn't a terribly big priority. I imagine proper colonies have thousands if not tens of thousands of people.
Admittedly, I haven't read the novelization, but I'll take your word for it. I think ADF made a couple of mistakes though. For starters, I'm pretty sure ash said the atmosphere was primarily nitrogen. Plus I found this secondary source:
"The planetoid's indigenous atmosphere was described as "primordial", consisting mainly of nitrogen, water vapor, carbon dioxide, trace particles of oxygen and small concentrations of methane and ammonia.[2] It is constantly racked by strong winds, although the moon is too small for potentially dangerous very large storms to form.[3] Needless to say, LV-426 under native conditions was inhospitable to human life."
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Acheron_(LV-426) (http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Acheron_(LV-426))
That's ADF's first mistake. The second relates to methane making lv426 a primary candidate for terraforming. If methane was the primary atmospheric constituent, I think the opposite would be true. Here on earth, methane is highly combustible, but we have an oxygen rich atmosphere. Combustion requires oxygen. However, if methane was more prevalent, then it would be relatively inert and oxygen (the limiting reactant) would become the highly combustible gas instead. I acquired this information a while back after watching a special on the science channel about triton (moon of Saturn) which has a methane rich atmosphere and lakes of methane, so I don't exactly have a source to cite here. So, going back to lv426, if the atmosphere was mostly methane, introducing high volumes of oxygen during terraforming would be highly dangerous.
On the other hand, methane is less dense than oxygen, so high winds would be possible with little force from planetary/moon rotation, which would support the high winds we all have seen in the movies. But then again, we don't know how fast lv426 rotates anyway...
Edit: after thinking about it a little more, I could understand the high presence of methane being ideal for terraforming if the rational was that it would provide plenty of natural fuel to run the atmospheric processors... But it still seems like a dangerous feat, nonetheless...
QuoteThat's ADF's first mistake.
More like the AvP wiki's mistake who've relied more on the Colonial Marines Tech Manual than the film.
"It's almost primordial. There's inert nitrogen, high concentration of carbon dioxide crystals, methane. Working on the trace elements."
The "almost primodial" sounds like it would make it favourable for terraforming - but I'm not especially cluey with chemistry. Maybe the methane was somehow used to heat the "deep cold" planet up.
And Triton is one of Neptune's moons. You're thinking of Titan.
Methane's also a very important reactant in lots of organic chemistry, something I'd think you'd wanna get going if terraforming.
Quote from: SM on Dec 17, 2013, 10:34:16 PM
QuoteThat's ADF's first mistake.
More like the AvP wiki's mistake who've relied more on the Colonial Marines Tech Manual than the film.
"It's almost primordial. There's inert nitrogen, high concentration of carbon dioxide crystals, methane. Working on the trace elements."
The "almost primodial" sounds like it would make it favourable for terraforming - but I'm not especially cluey with chemistry. Maybe the methane was somehow used to heat the "deep cold" planet up.
And Triton is one of Neptune's moons. You're thinking of Titan.
DAMN IT! I always get those two moons mixed up! Lol. Yes, Titan!
Yea, I know wiki sites are never the best sources, which is why I used it as a secondary source. I'm pretty sure my primary source, the movie, says nitrogen is predominant. I'd have to watch it and refresh my memory to be certain.
Chemistry is actually one of my strong points. Lol. And YES, methane would be important for organic chemistry, but in this case, I don't think that matters. They're only interested in getting the air breathable at this point. It would definitely be important as a green house gas to trap heat, and would be necessary in smaller quantities to maintain a stable environment later on...
The quote from the movie doesn't say it's necessarily predominant - although Ash mentioning it first may suggest that. However the "small concentrations of methane" mentioned in the CMTM don't seem to be supported.
Quote from: SM on Dec 18, 2013, 01:51:06 AM
The quote from the movie doesn't say it's necessarily predominant - although Ash mentioning it first may suggest that. However the "small concentrations of methane" mentioned in the CMTM don't seem to be supported.
DUDE!! See that's what happens when I read a message board reply and try to respond while on a coffee break.... I completely miss the blatant quote from the movie you included in your previous reply! Lol.
Ok, yes, in that case I'd agree with you. Ash's comment was purely qualitative not quantitative, so we can't assume which gas is most prevalent. I must have assumed nitrogen was most prevalent because he listed it first, but again, that isn't a good assumption to make.
However, I still think ADF made a mistake by saying methane being most prevalent makes lv426 ideal for terraforming. Methane cannot be converted to oxygen, or even burned as a fuel source without oxygen being supplied (using oxygen to make oxygen is counterproductive) unless the process required a much smaller quantity of oxygen in order to produce a larger quantity (highly efficient process, which I could believe for a futuristic tech), plus putting out high levels of oxygen in an already methane rich atmosphere would be highly dangerous.
Methane being used to heat up the "deep cold," maybe... Methane is about 10 times more effective as a green house gas than carbon dioxide, but considering ADF says the atmosphere was already predominately methane, that is obviously not helping to heat up lv426 to begin with. So, the heating up, I would have to assume you mean by combusting the methane to generate heat... Or in other words, used as a fuel source? Also going back to TITAN (not triton), the high quantities of methane didn't help to heat up that moon either, otherwise methane lakes wouldn't be able to exist (based on the properties of methane, it boils at -161 °C or -257.8 °F, which is Extremely cold). IF, ADF's novelization description were accepted and methane is the most prevalent gas in lv426's atmosphere, we could by extension assume that lv426's surface temperature is somewhere higher than -161 degrees Celsius because we never see any lakes of methane or lakes of any kind for that matter. I'm not sure if the surface temperature is ever mentioned in any books or movies, but if not, that might be a good starting point I think. Although, in aliens, everyone seems to fare just fine outside without any gear to keep warm, so it must be at a temperature that humans can withstand... Or maybe the temperature has increased as part of (or as a byproduct of) the terraforming process over the course of 20 years.
I will admit, no technical information for HOW the atmosphere processors work, means there is potential that it's based on futuristic science concepts we currently don't have knowledge of... Which is pretty likely and very plausible. But I still stand by the danger aspect I mentioned before...
Also, when ash says "inert nitrogen" that sort of goes without saying... It's science jargon added in to sound more "sciencey." Lol. If oxygen is lacking, then nitrogen is pretty inert in most cases, and we already know there's not much, if any, oxygen present. I actually work in a lab, and whenever I need to conduct an experiment "under an inert atmosphere" I use nitrogen in a glove box (standard practice). Just thought I'd mention that for ya since you said chem isn't your strongest suite. :-)
A:CM had good screens too...
I'm sorry but I don't have much to be excited for after A:CM (even though I enjoyed it) and from what I've heard about the plot to Isolation. I'm hopeful, but not giving it any large amount of hope after ACM
QuoteHowever, I still think ADF made a mistake by saying methane being most prevalent makes lv426 ideal for terraforming.
I don't think ADF does say methane is most prevalent. I think Van Leuwen says LV-426 is "swimming" in methane, but that simply means there's a lot.
QuoteAlso going back to TITAN (not triton), the high quantities of methane didn't help to heat up that moon either, otherwise methane lakes wouldn't be able to exist (based on the properties of methane, it boils at -161 °C or -257.8 °F, which is Extremely cold).
I daresay the fact it's 9.6AU from the sun doesn't help either.
QuoteOr maybe the temperature has increased as part of (or as a byproduct of) the terraforming process over the course of 20 years.
Based on Ash's comments and what we see in Aliens, a rise in temperature from terraforming is a given.
Yeah, how about that methane. :laugh:
Quote from: SM on Dec 18, 2013, 05:41:32 AM
QuoteHowever, I still think ADF made a mistake by saying methane being most prevalent makes lv426 ideal for terraforming.
I don't think ADF does say methane is most prevalent. I think Van Leuwen says LV-426 is "swimming" in methane, but that simply means there's a lot.
QuoteAlso going back to TITAN (not triton), the high quantities of methane didn't help to heat up that moon either, otherwise methane lakes wouldn't be able to exist (based on the properties of methane, it boils at -161 °C or -257.8 °F, which is Extremely cold).
I daresay the fact it's 9.6AU from the sun doesn't help either.
QuoteOr maybe the temperature has increased as part of (or as a byproduct of) the terraforming process over the course of 20 years.
Based on Ash's comments and what we see in Aliens, a rise in temperature from terraforming is a given.
I don't recall van Leuwen saying that! Does he say that in the book but not the movie?
And yes, absolutely the distance from its host star plays a huge role in that, that's part of the reason I keep comparing to Titan which is also extremely far away from our sun, although I do not know the exact distance off the top of my head.
On another note, I just thought of another problem, which could be explained away with "advanced tech" again... But by terraforming they would be replacing methane with oxygen, right? Well since methane is a highly effective green house gas (again about 10x more effective than CO2) the temperature on lv426 would drop off even more as methane was removed/consumed... I dunno, food for thought I guess.
QuoteI don't recall van Leuwen saying that! Does he say that in the book but not the movie?
Only in the book.
QuoteAnd yes, absolutely the distance from its host star plays a huge role in that, that's part of the reason I keep comparing to Titan which is also extremely far away from our sun, although I do not know the exact distance off the top of my head.
About 9.6AU. Probably fair to say LV-426 was a bit closer to Z2R.
Firstly can't confess to having read every word of the thread. I've posted it elsewhere before but there is my 2c on the special order, company involvement.
Ignoring Prometheus.
So let's say some ambitious company manager back on Earth gets a report from one of his underlings of an strange transmission, he looks into it and see it is of alien origin and is warning about some kind of organism. This guy gets excited since Alien life hasn't been discovered before and this is his big break - but only if he manages the situation careful so someone more senior doesn't steal it all.
So he takes a look at the logistics of all the ships in systems close to the transmission source and finds the Nostromo will be passing close by, perfect he thinks, he pulls some strings, calls in some old favours, and gets ASH planted on board before they start that leg of the journey, along with the special order.
Now he waits... and waits... and oh shit, the Nostromo has gone missing and that thing was carrying a LOT of ore. The guy panics and covers his tracks, deletes all records of the transmission and his involvement with the Nostromo. He goes home, lives and a full and happy life and at some point gets his son Carter a cushy position in the company.
For me that is an easy explanation as to why the Nostromo was sent and why no-one looked for Aliens on LV426 for the next 57 years.
Quote from: Xenoscream on Dec 18, 2013, 10:18:23 AM
Firstly can't confess to having read every word of the thread. I've posted it elsewhere before but there is my 2c on the special order, company involvement.
Ignoring Prometheus.
So let's say some ambitious company manager back on Earth gets a report from one of his underlings of an strange transmission, he looks into it and see it is of alien origin and is warning about some kind of organism. This guy gets excited since Alien life hasn't been discovered before and this is his big break - but only if he manages the situation careful so someone more senior doesn't steal it all.
So he takes a look at the logistics of all the ships in systems close to the transmission source and finds the Nostromo will be passing close by, perfect he thinks, he pulls some strings, calls in some old favours, and gets ASH planted on board before they start that leg of the journey, along with the special order.
Now he waits... and waits... and oh shit, the Nostromo has gone missing and that thing was carrying a LOT of ore. The guy panics and covers his tracks, deletes all records of the transmission and his involvement with the Nostromo. He goes home, lives and a full and happy life and at some point gets his son Carter a cushy position in the company.
For me that is an easy explanation as to why the Nostromo was sent and why no-one looked for Aliens on LV426 for the next 57 years.
Then, if you subscribe to the Special Order being sent as a transmission, how and where did that come into play? They couldn't communicate with earth, and they didn't try Thedus after the facehugger and adult xenomorph appeared.
How does he find out about the transmission? And why not get something more appropriate that space truckers?
He'd have to calculate the risk of loosing the crew, ship, ore and any potential samples (xeno's) or findings about the source of the distress signal. Sounds to me like he'd have to be insane to take that risk.
And the alien would have wound up in quarantine, so his work would have been spoiled.
Not arguing, but there's alot left to answer.
Quote from: SM on Dec 18, 2013, 07:10:08 AM
QuoteI don't recall van Leuwen saying that! Does he say that in the book but not the movie?
Only in the book.
QuoteAnd yes, absolutely the distance from its host star plays a huge role in that, that's part of the reason I keep comparing to Titan which is also extremely far away from our sun, although I do not know the exact distance off the top of my head.
About 9.6AU. Probably fair to say LV-426 was a bit closer to Z2R.
Well, it would have to be closer.... Zeta 2 (and zeta 1) is abnormally dim for an earth-like main sequence star for it's age (about half as old as our sun based on metallicity, young for universe-standards). Hmm... I know you've put together a detailed star map based on the alien franchise, but have you tried to figure out exactly how many AU lv426 is from its star based on the star's properties and the conditions on the surface of lv426? That would be interesting to try to figure out... But might require some assumptions such as eccentricity of orbit, etc...
Quote from: Xenoscream on Dec 18, 2013, 10:18:23 AM
Firstly can't confess to having read every word of the thread. I've posted it elsewhere before but there is my 2c on the special order, company involvement.
Ignoring Prometheus.
So let's say some ambitious company manager back on Earth gets a report from one of his underlings of an strange transmission, he looks into it and see it is of alien origin and is warning about some kind of organism. This guy gets excited since Alien life hasn't been discovered before and this is his big break - but only if he manages the situation careful so someone more senior doesn't steal it all.
So he takes a look at the logistics of all the ships in systems close to the transmission source and finds the Nostromo will be passing close by, perfect he thinks, he pulls some strings, calls in some old favours, and gets ASH planted on board before they start that leg of the journey, along with the special order.
Now he waits... and waits... and oh shit, the Nostromo has gone missing and that thing was carrying a LOT of ore. The guy panics and covers his tracks, deletes all records of the transmission and his involvement with the Nostromo. He goes home, lives and a full and happy life and at some point gets his son Carter a cushy position in the company.
For me that is an easy explanation as to why the Nostromo was sent and why no-one looked for Aliens on LV426 for the next 57 years.
No offense man, but I feel like I'm done with this conversation... Lol. I said what I wanted to say about it already, and ultimately everyone is entitled to their own opinion about it...
How about those screen shots?
Quote from: Xenoscream on Dec 18, 2013, 10:18:23 AM
Firstly can't confess to having read every word of the thread. I've posted it elsewhere before but there is my 2c on the special order, company involvement.
Ignoring Prometheus.
So let's say some ambitious company manager back on Earth gets a report from one of his underlings of an strange transmission, he looks into it and see it is of alien origin and is warning about some kind of organism. This guy gets excited since Alien life hasn't been discovered before and this is his big break - but only if he manages the situation careful so someone more senior doesn't steal it all.
So he takes a look at the logistics of all the ships in systems close to the transmission source and finds the Nostromo will be passing close by, perfect he thinks, he pulls some strings, calls in some old favours, and gets ASH planted on board before they start that leg of the journey, along with the special order.
Now he waits... and waits... and oh shit, the Nostromo has gone missing and that thing was carrying a LOT of ore. The guy panics and covers his tracks, deletes all records of the transmission and his involvement with the Nostromo. He goes home, lives and a full and happy life and at some point gets his son Carter a cushy position in the company.
For me that is an easy explanation as to why the Nostromo was sent and why no-one looked for Aliens on LV426 for the next 57 years.
More or less sums it up.
Looks cool, but I won't be hype up yet after what happen with ACM. I feel like I can't trust Sega with the franchise anymore.
Quote from: Hellspawn28 on Dec 18, 2013, 10:47:25 PM
Looks cool, but I won't be hype up yet after what happen with ACM. I feel like I can't trust Sega with the franchise anymore.
Agreed.
I refuse to even be hype, or give this game the benefit of the doubt until after release.
Quote from: Hellspawn28 on Dec 18, 2013, 10:47:25 PM
Looks cool, but I won't be hype up yet after what happen with ACM. I feel like I can't trust Sega with the franchise anymore.
Think of the politics here. They've had one terrible launch with A:CM, do you really think a Corp responsible for millions is going to make the same mistake twice? They probably bought it with a Concentrated contract.
I'm sorry to all of you who were so harmed by A:CM and just can't get behind another aliens game, but business works better than a single mind. They're not going to repeat their mistakes. Get past it.
Quote from: UDA on Dec 19, 2013, 07:22:20 AM
Think of the politics here. They've had one terrible launch with A:CM, do you really think a Corp responsible for millions is going to make the same mistake twice?
...
They're not going to repeat their mistakes.
AvP 2010 was largely a disappointment, too. So yes. The mistakes do get repeated - and by their appearance - amplified as well.
The fan base is big enough to accommodate lackluster titles - but only for so long; and some of us have reached breaking point already. There hasn't really been a decent ALIEN themed title since AvP2 was released a decade ago, which SEGA had no hand in.
As to the future for what 'ALIEN: Isolation' holds? Well, the inclusion of Amanda Ripley as the major character is more of an ominous sign rather than an encouraging one.
-Windebieste
Looks cool but having Ripleys daughter as the main character is dumb to me. how and why would she ever have encountered xenos.
I'm not saying Isolation is going to be great. I'm saying it's unrealistic to expect another A:CM. If Sega wasn't capable of moving past that, they wouldn't be making another Alien game.
I thought that AVP was fine by the way, with the exception of the rock, paper, scissors thing. It had strong atmosphere, and I thought it captured the best of both worlds in those regards. I'm in the publishing business (Meaning I read everything, all the time) so just about all the stories we see in games are lack-luster to me, so I can't really critique that. I don't know enough about graphics to say if that was good or bad, but I will say I would like to see those graphics pasted over AVP 2. The sounds were fine as well.
Quote from: Vepariga on Dec 19, 2013, 11:03:56 AM
Looks cool but having Ripleys daughter as the main character is dumb to me. how and why would she ever have encountered xenos.
This could have a good or bad effect. Bad in the sense that she's on some adventure to find her mother, which is a technique used way too often, and almost always lacks substance (there's usually no background development, it's just handed to you and you're expected to accept it as is).
Good in the sense that it could allow for character development (Dynamic Characters). Granted Amanda finds out about the link between her mom and the Xeno later on in the game. You can run through all emotions there. Sadness, Despair, Anger. Not having Amanda know about the Xeno's and not being on some quest for her mother from the get go leaves alot of doors open. Granted this a story about Amanda and not Amanda and her new boyfriend or Amanda and her new crew.
Talking about narrative structure on this forum has made me realize more and more just how shitty quality video game stories are. The stories were the first reason I even started playing the damn things. Took me over a decade to realize that...
Yes,like you said UDA,its used too often. I think its just too easy to put 'another Ripley that isnt Ripley' in it, for all we know her Daughter would have never known the story and would probably be told that it was just a accident/some cover story. she would have been young at that age possibly even grew up not knowing at all.
You know I think they should have made the character for this game YOU, not some known name or new character with tacked on plot or connection to existing characters,make it that you ARE the character. The experiances are yours. seems every game these days puts you as a character with a face and a story of their own,never letting you feel like its actually you in this situation.
Quote from: UDA on Dec 18, 2013, 11:06:48 AM
Then, if you subscribe to the Special Order being sent as a transmission, how and where did that come into play? They couldn't communicate with earth, and they didn't try Thedus after the facehugger and adult xenomorph appeared.
How does he find out about the transmission? And why not get something more appropriate that space truckers?
He'd have to calculate the risk of loosing the crew, ship, ore and any potential samples (xeno's) or findings about the source of the distress signal. Sounds to me like he'd have to be insane to take that risk.
And the alien would have wound up in quarantine, so his work would have been spoiled.
Not arguing, but there's alot left to answer.
Hey so not wanting to open a can of worms or derail the thread but thought I should respond to this.
The way I imagined it was the derelict transmission had been picked up before, by some long range scan, a satellite, or hell maybe even another ship that had passed before but didn't wake everyone up. So once the guy knows this, he arranges for the next ship to pass by (Nostromo) to get ASH and also programs the special order into that ship's system as part of the package.
Now this is space right, so the time and distance involved is huge - it might be the case that he had to plan YEARS in advance in order to move everything into place, or even just to wait for a ship to be on course to be close to the right area, my point being that I don't believe the special order was sent during the evens of the film, but set-up at some time before.
The way I see it during the movie Alien there is absolutely no contact with the outside world beyond the Nostromo picking up the Derelict transmission, that they were way, way out in space.
But of course this is all just speculation on my part, this is just the route of least resistance for my logical mind! Always open to new ideas :-)
Quote from: UDA on Dec 19, 2013, 11:05:17 AM
I'm not saying Isolation is going to be great. I'm saying it's unrealistic to expect another A:CM. If Sega wasn't capable of moving past that, they wouldn't be making another Alien game.
I thought that AVP was fine by the way, with the exception of the rock, paper, scissors thing. It had strong atmosphere, and I thought it captured the best of both worlds in those regards. I'm in the publishing business (Meaning I read everything, all the time) so just about all the stories we see in games are lack-luster to me, so I can't really critique that. I don't know enough about graphics to say if that was good or bad, but I will say I would like to see those graphics pasted over AVP 2. The sounds were fine as well.
Quote from: Vepariga on Dec 19, 2013, 11:03:56 AM
Looks cool but having Ripleys daughter as the main character is dumb to me. how and why would she ever have encountered xenos.
This could have a good or bad effect. Bad in the sense that she's on some adventure to find her mother, which is a technique used way too often, and almost always lacks substance (there's usually no background development, it's just handed to you and you're expected to accept it as is).
Good in the sense that it could allow for character development (Dynamic Characters). Granted Amanda finds out about the link between her mom and the Xeno later on in the game. You can run through all emotions there. Sadness, Despair, Anger. Not having Amanda know about the Xeno's and not being on some quest for her mother from the get go leaves alot of doors open. Granted this a story about Amanda and not Amanda and her new boyfriend or Amanda and her new crew.
Talking about narrative structure on this forum has made me realize more and more just how shitty quality video game stories are. The stories were the first reason I even started playing the damn things. Took me over a decade to realize that...
I think ACM was more gearbox's fault than SEGA's... Don't get me wrong, I think sega is to blame as well, but gearbox are really the ones to drop the ball, and it wasn't the first time either. I heard some pretty aweful things about duke nuke'em forever. So gearbox having nothing to do with this is already a step in the right direction I think, but I'm not familiar with any of the games made by THIS company so I could be way off base. Maybe sega will redeem themselves here... Or maybe not. I guess we'll see.
I agree, the best games ever relating to the franchise were the avp games on PC. I want nothing more than a stand alone alien title with SOME quality though... Lol
Quote from: Xenoscream on Dec 19, 2013, 02:18:45 PM
Quote from: UDA on Dec 18, 2013, 11:06:48 AM
Then, if you subscribe to the Special Order being sent as a transmission, how and where did that come into play? They couldn't communicate with earth, and they didn't try Thedus after the facehugger and adult xenomorph appeared.
How does he find out about the transmission? And why not get something more appropriate that space truckers?
He'd have to calculate the risk of loosing the crew, ship, ore and any potential samples (xeno's) or findings about the source of the distress signal. Sounds to me like he'd have to be insane to take that risk.
And the alien would have wound up in quarantine, so his work would have been spoiled.
Not arguing, but there's alot left to answer.
Hey so not wanting to open a can of worms or derail the thread but thought I should respond to this.
The way I imagined it was the derelict transmission had been picked up before, by some long range scan, a satellite, or hell maybe even another ship that had passed before but didn't wake everyone up. So once the guy knows this, he arranges for the next ship to pass by (Nostromo) to get ASH and also programs the special order into that ship's system as part of the package.
Now this is space right, so the time and distance involved is huge - it might be the case that he had to plan YEARS in advance in order to move everything into place, or even just to wait for a ship to be on course to be close to the right area, my point being that I don't believe the special order was sent during the evens of the film, but set-up at some time before.
The way I see it during the movie Alien there is absolutely no contact with the outside world beyond the Nostromo picking up the Derelict transmission, that they were way, way out in space.
But of course this is all just speculation on my part, this is just the route of least resistance for my logical mind! Always open to new ideas :-)
I could get on board with this! Sort of a middle ground between the conspiracy angle and coincidence angle. Nonetheless, I still find it scarier to think the nostromo was completely isolated, and not a soul knew about the incident except for the crew onboard.
Quote from: Vepariga on Dec 19, 2013, 01:02:25 PM
Yes,like you said UDA,its used too often. I think its just too easy to put 'another Ripley that isnt Ripley' in it, for all we know her Daughter would have never known the story and would probably be told that it was just a accident/some cover story. she would have been young at that age possibly even grew up not knowing at all.
You know I think they should have made the character for this game YOU, not some known name or new character with tacked on plot or connection to existing characters,make it that you ARE the character. The experiances are yours. seems every game these days puts you as a character with a face and a story of their own,never letting you feel like its actually you in this situation.
Agreed. FOX/SEGA just needs to learn to let Riley go. Does EVERYTHING have to absolutely be a direct connection to Ripley?
I don't recall if this was said already in this thread, but apparently CA intended to show some of A:I at E3 this year, but changed their minds because they didn't want any of the stink from A:CM getting on it. That could be encouraging, depending on how you look at it...
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on Dec 19, 2013, 05:53:13 PM
I don't recall if this was said already in this thread, but apparently CA intended to show some of A:I at E3 this year, but changed their minds because they didn't want any of the stink from A:CM getting on it. That could be encouraging, depending on how you look at it...
Maybe it was just a strategic move... Didn't want to feed us more feces when the taste was still fresh from the last steaming pile of $&!@ we got.
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on Dec 19, 2013, 05:53:13 PM
I don't recall if this was said already in this thread, but apparently CA intended to show some of A:I at E3 this year, but changed their minds because they didn't want any of the stink from A:CM getting on it. That could be encouraging, depending on how you look at it...
That soon after A:CM... they would have booed as soon as the trailer started playing. They'll still boo when they show it at the next E3. The sting of Colonial Marines will not go away for a long while.
Let's face it. Until SEGA loses control over the franchise(s), no one will take them seriously.
Quote from: PRJ_since1990 on Dec 20, 2013, 05:49:04 AM
Let's face it. Until SEGA loses control over the franchise(s), no one will take them seriously.
True. I dream of the day that happens. Y'know, as much as I despise EA... I would really like to see Visceral take a swing at an Aliens title. I mean, look at Dead Space (which they admit Alien(s) was one of the inspirations of the series). They are the only ones that I feel have the experience and the resources to start doing the franchise justice. But again... EA.
Quote from: Jarac on Dec 20, 2013, 05:52:25 AM
Quote from: PRJ_since1990 on Dec 20, 2013, 05:49:04 AM
Let's face it. Until SEGA loses control over the franchise(s), no one will take them seriously.
True. I dream of the day that happens. Y'know, as much as I despise EA... I would really like to see Visceral take a swing at an Aliens title. I mean, look at Dead Space (which they admit Alien(s) was one of the inspirations of the series). They are the only ones that I feel have the experience and the resources to start doing the franchise justice. But again... EA.
I agree with you Jarac. I would love a Dead Space style Alien game. I would love a Crysis-style Predator game. But again... EA. Anyone but SEGA, please God no more (save the inevitable one at this point).
People are ready to move on from A:CM, and ready for a working Alien game. Sega must know that, and they're better off being quick rather than delay to distance themselves from a bad product. When a bad product hits the shelves, companies don't sit with that being the the last thing in the minds of the consumers, they replace it or divert from it. A companies most valuable resource is it's reputation. With reputation you can do just about anything else, raise money, hire more specialized personnel, expand. It's much harder to start with one of the others and then gain reputation, which is often why small businesses fail. You can have an expert, but without money, there's not much you can do with production and advertisement. With money but without reputation, it can be harder to hire more prominent veterans of an industry. So on and so on.
That is what is being shown here on these forums. Nobody trusts them. Sega knows they've got to knock one out of the park and they have to do it quick. News of CA doing an alien game came out quickly after A:CM, which was the right move. Rather than everybody knowing ACM was bad, we are speculating about the outcome of this new game, and that's a much better gamble than letting the bad product hang in our minds without something new to look at.
If Sega screws this one up, then they are in real trouble. Consumers can forgive a mistake, but they typically don't forgive repeats of mistakes.
Quote from: UDA on Dec 20, 2013, 06:15:54 AM
If Sega screws this one up, then they are in real trouble. Consumers can forgive a mistake, but they typically don't forgive repeats of mistakes.
I guess then it matters if consumers, like ourselves, already consider AvP 2010 a mistake. It looked good from the initial trailers and the demo was fun but it didn't really last very long, just like ACM but to a lesser extent. I don't believe this new title will save any face if it's anything less than outstanding.
I also noticed on Wikipedia that it's been called a 'Horror Stealth' Game. I don't remember reading that anywhere else? Does anyone know of anything that backs it up? Or did I just completely miss the boat?
Edit: I think I found the source of that: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/leaked-alien-isolation-screenshots-already-look-better-than-colonial-marines/1100-6416706/ (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/leaked-alien-isolation-screenshots-already-look-better-than-colonial-marines/1100-6416706/)
A first person stealth game... I don't know how to feel about that.
It's an interesting move - whilst I'm still very hesitate about the inclusion of Amanda Ripley - the screenshots look nice and I am intrigued by a stealth shooter.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 20, 2013, 08:28:06 AM
It's an interesting move - whilst I'm still very hesitate about the inclusion of Amanda Ripley - the screenshots look nice and I am intrigued by a stealth shooter.
I wonder how heavy on the shooter part, it's already been said that melee would play a large part in the game.
And not picking a fight, I'm asking out of curiosity: What is it about Amanda Ripley that has turned people off? I've written my thoughts about it probably three times on this forum, so I'll spare you repeating myself. The short form is I can see it going either way, Completely dependent on the writing.
Because Amanda Ripley is a female and unless she's dressed skimpy like Lara Croft then it will be no good. :laugh:
Because it's the insistence on relying on Ripley and Ripley-like characters. It's boring and overdone. I feel it's time for the franchise to move on -effectively.
Sorry to go back to the Special Order 937 debate, but since I've read everyone's interpretation of it, i felt compelled to offer my own;
Firstly, in my opinion, there is no doubt whatsoever that Ash knew about the special order BEFORE he left Thedus, he was put on the ship SPECIFICALLY for this task, and the company (or at least whoever issued the order) was aware of the hostile organism BEFORE the Nostromo landed on LV-426. Now, before you write me off, here is the evidence presented in the movie;
1. The most senior officer is the only crew member on the ship with access to Muther. During the opening scenes of the movie Kane is heard saying "Dallas, Muther wants to talk with you" to which the captain responds "Yeah...my eyes only." Later in the movie, after Dallas is (presumed) dead (or killed depending which cut of the movie you roll with) and Ash asks Ripley what she wants him to do, she responds "What you've been doing; Nothing. I have access to Muther now and I'll get my own answers thank you." (Implying she didn't have access prior to Dallas' demise, and, as she stated earlier in the movie "When Dallas is off the ship, I'm senior officer." Now...If this was all a co-incidence, and Ash didn't know anything about this before they left Thedus, then, explain how he received special order 937 once the Nostromo had left for Earth? He had no access to Muther. Thus, he had his orders before they left Thedus.
2. The company (or whoever issued special order 937) knew in advance there was a hostile organism on the planet. Whether that be prior knowledge due to a previously unseen encounter, or (most likely) the Derelict warning beacon had already been deciphered fully. There is no chance that (as someone suggested here) they *didnt* know until Kane was facehugged. How do we know this? Again, because it is in Special Order 937; (see highlighted sentence in screenshot)
So what does this tell us? They knew there was a hostile organism on the planet before the Nostromo got there... Dallas states that he shipped out 5 times with another science officer, who was replaced two days before they left Thedus with Ash. Ash would have HAD to be aware of his orders before he left Thedus (meaning he was put there intentionally) In my opinion, i can't see how or why any of this is being debated...its all in the movie :)
Its_Auto agree with all of your points there.
On Amanda Ripley - well I think it could make a good story, I mean she has a clear motivation to try and discover what happened to the Nostromo, however it could have just as easily been a relative of another member of the crew. I'm not too worried about that.
I really like the idea of a more stealth based game - that gives the impression that being detected = death, i.e. you will not be running around gunning everything that moves down, but rather having to spend the vast majority of the time avoiding confrontation. I think this will add some genuine scares and is the right approach for an Alien game.
Also I wonder how my the Alien's acid blood will play a part here - it could be the case that you just can't shoot it for fear of creating a hull breach.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 20, 2013, 11:48:04 AM
Because it's the insistence on relying on Ripley and Ripley-like characters. It's boring and overdone. I feel it's time for the franchise to move on -effectively.
Here's an idea, how about instead of revisiting the same characters from the movies, they (brace for it) make new and original ones
I thought this thread was about screenshots.
Quote from: Cal427eb on Dec 20, 2013, 04:52:18 PM
I thought this thread was about screenshots.
No, its about paragraph long answers to a debate that should have been kept to PMs or its own thread
Quote from: PVTDukeMorrison on Dec 20, 2013, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Cal427eb on Dec 20, 2013, 04:52:18 PM
I thought this thread was about screenshots.
No, its about paragraph long answers to a debate that should have been kept to PMs or its own thread
Well it is kind of relevant ~ earlier in the thread we were discussing theories based on the screenshots of the game, and speculating where the xeno in the game is from, why there are clones and soldiers aboard this station etc... the debate about Ash stems from "who knows what" about the derelict, LV-426, the alien...and more importantly whether special order 937 is some sort of umbrella corp style conspiracy within Weyland Yutani, or whether it was more likely a lone wolf operating in his/her own interests (similar to Carter Burke) which is relevant if it turns out the xeno on this station is from LV-426, considering this game is set between 'Alien' and 'Aliens' :)
And you guys have just been going in circles repeating the same thing, not getting anywhere with this debate. The screenshots don't evenhave anything to do with what you're discussing.
Quote from: PVTDukeMorrison on Dec 20, 2013, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Cal427eb on Dec 20, 2013, 04:52:18 PM
I thought this thread was about screenshots.
No, its about paragraph long answers to a debate that should have been kept to PMs or its own thread
You should read it. There's a reason it was brought up in this thread.
Quote from: UDA on Dec 20, 2013, 08:21:58 AM
I also noticed on Wikipedia that it's been called a 'Horror Stealth' Game. I don't remember reading that anywhere else? Does anyone know of anything that backs it up? Or did I just completely miss the boat?
Edit: I think I found the source of that: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/leaked-alien-isolation-screenshots-already-look-better-than-colonial-marines/1100-6416706/ (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/leaked-alien-isolation-screenshots-already-look-better-than-colonial-marines/1100-6416706/)
A first person stealth game... I don't know how to feel about that.
I think stealth could work pretty well in a fps... It worked well in the chronicles of riddick: escape from butcher bay.
Quote from: Cal427eb on Dec 20, 2013, 05:11:09 PM
And you guys have just been going in circles repeating the same thing, not getting anywhere with this debate. The screenshots don't evenhave anything to do with what you're discussing.
Yes, the thread went on a little bit of a tangent, and I think I'm the one to blame for that... Which I apologize for. But conversations tend to do that. I'm willing to let the debate die because, you're right, it just keeps going in circles.
Quote from: PVTDukeMorrison on Dec 20, 2013, 04:48:57 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 20, 2013, 11:48:04 AM
Because it's the insistence on relying on Ripley and Ripley-like characters. It's boring and overdone. I feel it's time for the franchise to move on -effectively.
Here's an idea, how about instead of revisiting the same characters from the movies, they (brace for it) make new and original ones
*ding**ding**ding* Exactly! Of course, they can't half-ass it like Colonial Marines (arguably, they went full-ass).
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 20, 2013, 11:48:04 AM
Because it's the insistence on relying on Ripley and Ripley-like characters. It's boring and overdone. I feel it's time for the franchise to move on -effectively.
You don't know she's going to be "Ripley-like". Not every strong female character has to be a Ripley clone.
*ding**ding**ding* Exactly! Of course, they can't half-ass it like Colonial Marines (arguably, they went full-ass).
[/quote]€
Lol @ full ass.
The Amanda thing is as others have said, in my opinion, just rehashing old characters and I feel like the series can't go anywhere. Now, if you want to do an Alien(s) style story where you have an onslaught on a hive by the USCM, that's cool by me. New characters, different story, similar model. That works.
Yeah, let's have a marines vs aliens game. They've never done that before.
Boo! No more Ripley clones. How about Hicks 2.0 instead. :laugh:
All we have on Amanda Ripley is a screen shot, and yet you're calling her the next Ripley (from the movies). I mean, how do you draw those conclusions at this early stage, because if you really can, I'll hire you. Sign on bonus and all.
We know nothing about Amanda. And you can't draw those conclusions. End of story. Nice to hear opinions though.
I agree... lets give them the benefit of the doubt; Amanda may prove to be nothing like Ellen :) (Not that it really matters if she is - Ripley was an amazing character)
As for our constructive debates, theories and speculation being "off topic" I apologize, I didn't realize you were hoping for 13 pages worth of "Cool" and "Hope its not like Colonial marines" posts. ;)
Quote from: Its_Auto on Dec 21, 2013, 02:33:41 PM
I agree... lets give them the benefit of the doubt; Amanda may prove to be nothing like Ellen :) (Not that it really matters if she is - Ripley was an amazing character)
As for our constructive debates, theories and speculation being "off topic" I apologize, I didn't realize you were hoping for 13 pages worth of "Cool" and "Hope its not like Colonial marines" posts. ;)
Lmao
Don't forget "awesome" "nice screen shots" and "sweet! No gearbox!" Lol
I'm not giving the Amanda Ripley idea the benefit of the doubt. I think its a terribly stupid idea.
For marketing executives, they could care less about what real fans want. They want to attract the casual Sci Fi/Action fan to a new game. "Introducing the untold story of Ellen Ripley's daughter and her quest to find her mother and learn the mystery of the Alien." Regular person says, "Oh boy! I saw that movie a few times. This will be great!" You would have to include a hard core fan of the series to be involved in the production of the game. That's the only way to make it good enough for us.
I think the reason why characters are continuously reused, or referenced in this way, is because it's the company's lazy way to make it cannon or validate their efforts.
Quote from: UDA on Dec 21, 2013, 07:57:59 AM
All we have on Amanda Ripley is a screen shot, and yet you're calling her the next Ripley (from the movies). I mean, how do you draw those conclusions at this early stage, because if you really can, I'll hire you. Sign on bonus and all.
We know nothing about Amanda. And you can't draw those conclusions. End of story. Nice to hear opinions though.
It's an ALIEN game. There will be numerous parallels to the film. It stars the main character's daughter. Look at the characteristics that made Weaver's character so admirable: her courage, will power, intelligence, etc. If we don't end up with a Ripley-style character with, basically, a different name (and coincidentally, a blood relation to her), what kind of character would people expect to play? Even Shaw in Prometheus is another Ripley from a previous time in the series. Because that's the kind of female role people come to expect in the franchise. I'm not arguing with you, but I most certainly can draw just those conclusions. I will be pleasantly surprised if it isn't the case.
Quote from: Powerloader on Dec 21, 2013, 07:49:32 AM
Yeah, let's have a marines vs aliens game. They've never done that before.
Boo! No more Ripley clones. How about Hicks 2.0 instead. :laugh:
Not even gonna touch that ;)
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Dec 21, 2013, 08:20:44 PM
I'm not giving the Amanda Ripley idea the benefit of the doubt. I think its a terribly stupid idea.
See, I don't truly hate it, but it's another case of missed potential. They could move away from the movie characters, similar to how the comics and books did, and say, "hey, the EU states there's plenty of colonies on other planets and interstellar travel, so why not do a story about one of them." I'd like to know who's actually writing this story, be it CA, SEGA or someone at Fox, just to understand more about why it can't be about something other than Ripley or characters she's met at one point or another.
Quote from: Engineer on Dec 22, 2013, 02:24:33 AM
I think the reason why characters are continuously reused, or referenced in this way, is because it's the company's lazy way to make it cannon or validate their efforts.
Probably. It's always simpler to use something already in existence rather than make up something new. I'm not sure how the canon argument plays into it, since usually only fans care about that and we typically agree on the movies being your "purest" canon and everything else in existence is up to one's discretion.
Quote from: Its_Auto on Dec 21, 2013, 02:33:41 PM
As for our constructive debates, theories and speculation being "off topic" I apologize, I didn't realize you were hoping for 13 pages worth of "Cool" and "Hope its not like Colonial marines" posts. ;)
Pool's closed due to lack of new content :P
My problem is that it doesn't have to be Amanda. While I prefer playing as a marine in Aliens games I really don't mind playing a regular person in a shitty alien infested situation. I just don't see why they're keeping it "in the family". It makes it seem like the later jaws movies and the Aliens just have it out for the Ripley blood line, which is dumb to me.
Give me a new character that isn't related to the other movies or its characters at all, give me a clean slate.
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Dec 22, 2013, 09:18:17 AM
My problem is that it doesn't have to be Amanda. While I prefer playing as a marine in Aliens games I really don't mind playing a regular person in a shitty alien infested situation. I just don't see why they're keeping it "in the family". It makes it seem like the later jaws movies and the Aliens just have it out for the Ripley blood line, which is dumb to me.
Give me a new character that isn't related to the other movies or its characters at all, give me a clean slate.
Well, shit. You just reminded me of that damned movie. Jaws: the Revenge's plot was so ludicrous; keeping it in the family was literally what drove it. Now every time I think of
Isolation I'll be thinking of Jaws 4 and going, "Dammit, it is the same." We can debate about the comics all day long, but at least they used different characters and in some cases, succeeded greatly.
Quote from: Jarac on Dec 22, 2013, 06:24:34 PM
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Dec 22, 2013, 09:18:17 AMI just don't see why they're keeping it "in the family". It makes it seem like the later jaws movies and the Aliens just have it out for the Ripley blood line, which is dumb to me.
Well, shit. You just reminded me of that damned movie. Jaws: the Revenge's plot was so ludicrous; keeping it in the family was literally what drove it. Now every time I think of Isolation I'll be thinking of Jaws 4 and going, "Dammit, it is the same."
That movie was certainly painful to watch, but you have to admit it was responsible for two
fantastic quotes!:
- "I have never seen it, but by all accounts it is terrible. However, I have seen the house that it built, and it is terrific." -Michael Caine
- "What shark wouldn't want revenge on the family of the man that killed it?" -Roger Ebert
Let's hope Alien: Isolation can do better. :D
I'm not getting the whole Amanda Ripley hate thing thats going on here - we don't know anything about her yet other than she *allegedly* lives a long and happy life (and we only have Burke's word on that). There's lots of potential here. Just because she is named Ripley, we shouldn't automatically assume she is going to be exactly the same as her Mother. I'd like to see her as an unstable character...she lost her Mother at 11, who knows what other baggage she comes with. Maybe we'll get a broken character who becomes something more?... We only ever seem to get one of two types of characters in the games - a generic Ripley-esque character, or a generic marine. The novels and comics aren't much different to be fair.. can hardly badmouth this character before we know her...Had Colonial marines been more successful/delivered, for different gameplay they could have done a 'mayday' expansion showing the events of the Jordan family bringing back the Hugger to Hadley's Hope, the events of normal everyday colonists without marine weapons barricading themselves in operations etc, and the chance to play as Newt, with no weapons and stealth based gameplay, using ducts to avoid xenomorph/areas in which they can't fit etc...would have been different (and a little scary)
Quote from: Its_Auto on Dec 22, 2013, 11:50:33 PM
I'm not getting the whole Amanda Ripley hate thing thats going on here - we don't know anything about her yet other than she *allegedly* lives a long and happy life (and we only have Burke's word on that). There's lots of potential here. Just because she is named Ripley, we shouldn't automatically assume she is going to be exactly the same as her Mother. I'd like to see her as an unstable character...she lost her Mother at 11, who knows what other baggage she comes with. Maybe we'll get a broken character who becomes something more?... We only ever seem to get one of two types of characters in the games - a generic Ripley-esque character, or a generic marine. The novels and comics aren't much different to be fair.. can hardly badmouth this character before we know her...Had Colonial marines been more successful/delivered, for different gameplay they could have done a 'mayday' expansion showing the events of the Jordan family bringing back the Hugger to Hadley's Hope, the events of normal everyday colonists without marine weapons barricading themselves in operations etc, and the chance to play as Newt, with no weapons and stealth based gameplay, using ducts to avoid xenomorph/areas in which they can't fit etc...would have been different (and a little scary)
I think part of the problem, at least for me it is, is that they are expecting us to swallow that both mother AND daughter have chance encounters with the same type of creature. It's like they are trying to establish that Ripley and her kin are like mortal enemies with the xenomorphs and destined to be locked in eternal combat with one another.
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Dec 22, 2013, 09:18:17 AM
I just don't see why they're keeping it "in the family".
Give me a new character that isn't related to the other movies or its characters at all, give me a clean slate.
Amanda Ripley is a new character, she is really a blank slate, except for 3 things.
1. She lost her mum at the age of 10
2. She has a very clear motivation for trying to find out what happened to her mum, and thus go looking for the Nostromo / find out about the special order / LV246 setting up for the game's plot
3. She dies an old lady with no kids
You could argue about point 2, but I expect this is the point the story will hinge on, which isn't a bad start for me. Yeah they could have done some random standalone story with a brand new character to randomly stumble across the Alien, but I think the Amanda Ripley angle could start us off with some emotional investment in the character, which again isn't a bad start.
That said, it will need to be done right. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
Now that my initial knee-jerk reaction has worn off, I'll concede that it is possible for a gripping, believable, and enjoyable story about Amanda and the Alien to be made...
...I just really have my doubts that video game writers are the ones to pull it off.
I hope I'm wrong! When all is said and done, I just want a scary game, that looks as good as those screenshots, and is as macho-bullshit-free as possible. :)
Quote from: Its_Auto on Dec 22, 2013, 11:50:33 PM
I'm not getting the whole Amanda Ripley hate thing thats going on here - we don't know anything about her yet other than she *allegedly* lives a long and happy life (and we only have Burke's word on that). There's lots of potential here. Just because she is named Ripley, we shouldn't automatically assume she is going to be exactly the same as her Mother. I'd like to see her as an unstable character...she lost her Mother at 11, who knows what other baggage she comes with. Maybe we'll get a broken character who becomes something more?... We only ever seem to get one of two types of characters in the games - a generic Ripley-esque character, or a generic marine. The novels and comics aren't much different to be fair.. can hardly badmouth this character before we know her...Had Colonial marines been more successful/delivered, for different gameplay they could have done a 'mayday' expansion showing the events of the Jordan family bringing back the Hugger to Hadley's Hope, the events of normal everyday colonists without marine weapons barricading themselves in operations etc, and the chance to play as Newt, with no weapons and stealth based gameplay, using ducts to avoid xenomorph/areas in which they can't fit etc...would have been different (and a little scary)
DUDE!! I love the "play as newt on Hadley's hope" dlc idea! That would have been freaking awesome!
Still don't dig the idea of Amanda Ripley ever having an encounter with the Xenomorph. So contrived and unlikely, being emotionally involved or not.
Saying that, I'm still excited about this game and I really hope they'll be able make the story at least somewhat believable.
Quote from: Its_Auto on Dec 20, 2013, 04:13:23 PM
Sorry to go back to the Special Order 937 debate, but since I've read everyone's interpretation of it, i felt compelled to offer my own;
Firstly, in my opinion, there is no doubt whatsoever that Ash knew about the special order BEFORE he left Thedus, he was put on the ship SPECIFICALLY for this task, and the company (or at least whoever issued the order) was aware of the hostile organism BEFORE the Nostromo landed on LV-426. Now, before you write me off, here is the evidence presented in the movie;
1. The most senior officer is the only crew member on the ship with access to Muther. During the opening scenes of the movie Kane is heard saying "Dallas, Muther wants to talk with you" to which the captain responds "Yeah...my eyes only." Later in the movie, after Dallas is (presumed) dead (or killed depending which cut of the movie you roll with) and Ash asks Ripley what she wants him to do, she responds "What you've been doing; Nothing. I have access to Muther now and I'll get my own answers thank you." (Implying she didn't have access prior to Dallas' demise, and, as she stated earlier in the movie "When Dallas is off the ship, I'm senior officer." Now...If this was all a co-incidence, and Ash didn't know anything about this before they left Thedus, then, explain how he received special order 937 once the Nostromo had left for Earth? He had no access to Muther. Thus, he had his orders before they left Thedus.
2. The company (or whoever issued special order 937) knew in advance there was a hostile organism on the planet. Whether that be prior knowledge due to a previously unseen encounter, or (most likely) the Derelict warning beacon had already been deciphered fully. There is no chance that (as someone suggested here) they *didnt* know until Kane was facehugged. How do we know this? Again, because it is in Special Order 937; (see highlighted sentence in screenshot)
So what does this tell us? They knew there was a hostile organism on the planet before the Nostromo got there... Dallas states that he shipped out 5 times with another science officer, who was replaced two days before they left Thedus with Ash. Ash would have HAD to be aware of his orders before he left Thedus (meaning he was put there intentionally) In my opinion, i can't see how or why any of this is being debated...its all in the movie :)
They knew about the warning signal of alien origins, thats all they did, according to Scott himself. They sent nostromo first to check it out since they were going to be first on the route there before commiting to sending an expensive, specialized team (as they did in A3). As far as Ash, putting him there was a coincidence according to Scott, he was just there to protect the companys business.
Ridley has repeatedly shot down the suggestion that the Company was aware of the Alien payload: "I think any corporation that sends probes into unknown territory is going to think of the possibility of finding something new," he said. "I'm sure that the crew members on all its ships would have been briefed to bring back anything of interest. It would be part of one's job to bring it back. An alien, of course, would be of top priority. This particular corporation didn't have a preconceived notion that an alien would be found on this mission, much less the particular Alien that is brought onto the ship. The idea of bringing it back alive would not have been on the minds of the corporate executives when they first received the alien transmission. They just had high expectations when they ordered the Nostromo to investigate – it was purely out of curiosity."
This of course also explains Weyland-Yutani's lack of action regarding the derelict and the eggs following the events of Alien. Ridley added: "I would have thought that Earth would have previously received messages [from space], realised they were coming from an intelligent source but, for economy reasons, perhaps have postponed the preparation of an investigatory spacecraft. Then, one day, Nostromo is in the vicinity and the order is given for the crew to bring back the Alien, good or evil, without any real thought being given to the consequences.
But why would the Company place an android on their ships and keep its identity a secret? According to Ridley, they are insistent "on placing a company man on each vehicle. In this vehicle, he takes the form of a robot, Ash. This would seem to be the normal development of a huge corporation trying to protect its interests. In this particular future, it would be very easy for "pirating" to exist. Corporations will have to find ways to assure that vehicles carrying minerals or vital information will not be hijacked."and by all means it looks like it was a quiet inside job, like with Burke
from here: http://alienseries.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/the-android/ (http://alienseries.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/the-android/)
Today they released more screens http://www.xboxachievements.com/news/news-17097-Alien--Isolation-Screens-Scream-Detail.html (http://www.xboxachievements.com/news/news-17097-Alien--Isolation-Screens-Scream-Detail.html)
Those were in the Edge magazine too. ;) Check that thread.
I wonder if the X-box magazine article has anything new?