In light of Noah Hawley's comments that the Alien TV series will feature socio-political commentary, people seem to have come out of the woodwork decrying that the series is going "woke" and that this will, somehow, ruin the project entirely.
But has the Alien franchise ever actually been asleep?
Rather than derail the TV series thread -- or somehow work this into existing politics thread, which is more garnered to, y'know, actual politics -- I thought we could make a dedicated thread to discuss whether this is some horrifying new development, or just par for the course.
Next thing you know, they're going to cast a woman in the leading role...
That's just pandering.
Film critics and scholars have recognized and discussed various themes in Alien. Sometimes creators will talk about what they're going for, and sometimes they won't. But art and politics have always been intertwined, though sometimes socio-political theming is indeed handled more clumsily these days.
I was reading a James Cameron interview recently in the book
James Cameron's Story of Science-Fiction, this bit stood out:
Should a science fiction writer feel a moral imperative to get the science correct and address real-world issues?QuoteJames Cameron: "I'd say that the moral imperative to get the science right is less important than the moral imperative to comment on our times and our political and sociological situation through a lens of entertainment. Or at least a lens that is somewhat removed or askance so that people can see things with a new perspective. We are certainly seeing, in what we thought were more enlightened times, that people are incredibly prejudiced and dug-in and dogmatic. The current size of populism and isolationism around the world shows that we are actually moving backward in that regard. Or, at the very least, deeply entrenched dogmatic perspectives are being revealed to us in harsh terms in our liberal bubble, which may have been a bubble of illusion, so that our sort of path of social revolution and enlightenment has not been nearly as effective as we thought it was. Which basically means we have got to double down, because whatever progress we have made can be somewhat attributed to people being able to see past the prejudices that they grew up with or were indoctrinated with, or that they learned in their schools or that they learned from their parents. One of the many imputes to that kind of social evolution has been science fiction, which does request and demand that people look outside their immediate bubble, their immediate reality."
@RidgeTop. Good quote. He certainly lived up to his words when he made Avatar. I know a few right-wing conservative types who find the film unwatchable because of its "lefty liberal" themes. (Their words not mine, but probably not inaccurate). I can watch it just fine.
@SiL. No, it's not a horrifying new development. Yes, it's par for the course. What is new is the new slang terminology being used: "Woke", "SJW", "diversity" (we used to use the word "inclusivity") making certain people think there's a new leftist conspiracy afoot. There's not. Basically, storytellers have been putting messages into their stories for as long as they've been at work. (e.g. The Bible).
Messages, or themes, are generally layered as subplots within the overarching narrative. IOW, it's normal for a film (or novel, or play) to be about more than one thing. Generally, you've got your main plot on top carrying the action (the actual step by step events that comprise the narrative), and layers of subplot underneath that carry the theme.
For example, in Aliens you've got the top level of story: A woman teams up with some soldiers to defeat an alien threat. That's the action layer—the main plot. Layered below that are themes of corporate malfeasance, redemption, the hubris of technology, the brotherhood of soldiering, the eminence of the innocent (Newt and Bishop, one who is a child, the other who is child-like). These are the subplots that carry the themes. All these ideas co-exist in the Aliens screenplay, in varying degrees of emphasis.
At the very minimum, any audience should be able to follow the action of the main plot. If you're a 9 year old kid, or a shallow viewer, or simply inattentive, the action level will at least entertain you. But in any good film, if you are inclined to look deeper, the themes will be there.
This is also why Hill and Giler were so derisive of the original Alien screenplay that O'Bannon wrote. Basically, there were no deeper layers to the story. That's the hallmark of a B-movie. Whatever the events are in such a story, that's what the story is about. It's all surface level. It's why they added the subplot about the Company. It's why Mother was intended to be a corporate agent, plotting against the crew (later rewritten as Ash). This added what they felt every respectable script needs—a subplot to carry the story's theme. Without this subplot (and the friction between the lowly engineers and the upper-deck officers), Alien had no theme. Hill and Giler put one in. (Naturally, being the mid-70s, post-Watergate and the Nixon-era, with films like The Parallax View, Three Days of the Condor, The Conversation, The China Syndrome, The Candidate, etc. the zeitgeist of the era spawned many political thrillers about villainous institutions of authority; unsurprisingly, Hill and Giler shared the same influences.)
(Before anyone objects to say that O'Bannon's script had a built-in theme of rape, let me say at this point that rape is not a theme; it's an image-system. Likewise, neither is "motherhood" a theme in Aliens; technically, this, too, is an image-system.)
The interesting thing is that with the simple addition of this theme-bearing subplot (the Company, deviously plotting against its own workers) they created the germ of a franchise-wide theme that all sequels, and the vast majority of EU material, used as a toe-hold in developing their own descendant stories. IOW the importance of that theme can't be overstated. Without it, the entire Alien franchise might have had nothing more to show us than repetitious Giger-monster rehashes.
TC
People tend to respond to any accusation of a franchise becoming 'too political' by saying that '[franchise] has always been political'.
In most cases this would be true, but there is a massive difference between exploring themes such as authoritarianism and dystopia which many franchises (including Alien) have done well over the years, and the recent trend in Hollywood of pushing (for want of a better phrase) 'Orange man bad' messaging, in which the film makers are clearly on one side of the two-party political divide and are doing little more than lecturing those on the other side.
Politics can be discussed without alienating (no pun intended) half of your audience, however I fear that in the current climate it seems Hollywood no longer knows how to do this. The result of this is that people are becoming increasing disaffected with the amount of party-political messaging present in the very material they consume to escape from such real-life concerns.
My complaint with the comment has only to do with the sub themes overshadowing the actual story. If it is so obvious that it has to be told to you through some expository dialogue without you being able to figure it out on your own, then it becomes a distraction.
You should be able to watch the movie and pick up the themes and symbolism on your own. Not have some character expose dialogue to tell you about it, when it isn't essential to progress the story.
If it can be done subtly without smacking you in the face with it all the time then it will be fine. If it is just blatantly loudspeaker obvious the whole series then it will be annoying as f**k.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 04, 2021, 07:34:39 AM
Next thing you know, they're going to cast a woman in the leading role...
Oh, you just reminded me of a video analysis of Alien that I quite enjoyed.
It offers actually a good comparison of women-led roles in "old" movies (like alien, aliens, terminator I, II) and movies made nowadays (like Captain Marvel).
Quote from: Kimarhi on Jul 04, 2021, 03:24:16 PM
My complaint with the comment has only to do with the sub themes overshadowing the actual story. If it is so obvious that it has to be told to you through some expository dialogue without you being able to figure it out on your own, then it becomes a distraction.
Where is there any indication this is how it will be handled in the show? Where is there any indication that Hawley was suggesting this would be the case?
Conversely, how does
Alien not slap you in the face with its messaging? We have corporate directives saying "CREW EXPENDABLE", characters exclaiming "That damn company! What about our lives, you son of a bitch!" This is everything people saying they're fearing the messaging being blunt dread, yet none of them seem to actually have a problem with it.
Fair point, but I think the difference has always been that that dialogue felt natural to the Alien verse. Maybe because I was negative 6 years old when it was released, and didn't feel that it necessarily correlated with real world issues at the time.
Right, but why is there a concern this somehow won't feel natural to the Alien universe, based on a comment stating nothing more than that the themes will exist?
You know why lol.
Not really. I've heard a few different reasons, from any commentary being bad, to modern Hollywood can't be subtle (while conveniently never providing an example), to "get woke go broke".
Hollywood does sometimes lack the ability to be subtle. Elysium and Avatar spring immediately to mind.
True, but that's not new, and not even unheard of in the best entries of the franchise.
Quote from: Concerned Bystander on Jul 04, 2021, 03:09:55 PM
In most cases this would be true, but there is a massive difference between exploring themes such as authoritarianism and dystopia which many franchises (including Alien) have done well over the years, and the recent trend in Hollywood of pushing (for want of a better phrase) 'Orange man bad' messaging, in which the film makers are clearly on one side of the two-party political divide and are doing little more than lecturing those on the other side.
Politics can be discussed without alienating (no pun intended) half of your audience, however I fear that in the current climate it seems Hollywood no longer knows how to do this. The result of this is that people are becoming increasing disaffected with the amount of party-political messaging present in the very material they consume to escape from such real-life concerns.
The thing is that these days, anything and everything is politicized that you can't even say something subtle without someone saying that Hollywood is stealth lecturing people. You already got people believing things like COVID vaccines is just another way of the government to control us and not even say why other than cuz government bad. Can't talk about climate change as that's just globalism elites being thinly veiled by big science. Say that corporatism and unchecked capitalism is bad, despite The Company clearly showing that they care nothing for their employees just as long as they can get the Alien for exploitation? You are just a dirty commie that hates rich people that achieved the American Dream.
Subtle or not, if it challenges their beliefs, they are going to be against it regardless.
I do think a big part of this is people looking to be angry. Anti-woke outrage has been turned into a business on the internet.
Because of increasingly polarized times, more media is examined to either be in support of or against one's political beliefs. And even if a director or writer states he merely wants to
explore certain themes, which could be meaning asking questions rather than declaring answers, it's still assumed they'll be blatantly preaching a progressive message in a way that comes across as "woke."
Another interesting quote in that Cameron interview:
QuoteJames Cameron: You can also throttle your artistic effort in the crib by making it too preachy, to didactic. On the first Avatar, they didn't see it coming. It was just a big, glossy spectacle that had all this other stuff in it. Next time the pundits will be on guard looking for those left, tree-hugging themes.
I'm also not hammering the throttle down and trying to ram a message down people's throats. I'm trying to tell a good story that exists within a thematic framework that people can either buy into or not buy into, and if they don't buy into it, they'll still enjoy the story.
I think ultimately people in general are tired of incredibly wealthy and entitled Hollywood types hitching their personal political or social views onto movies. There's no nuance and it's being done in an incredibly clumsy way. The only movie of recent times which I think is an exception is District 9.
If it's about defying gender norms it was done in 1979 and if it's about people of colour leading the franchises we love it was done in 1990.
Just make the best movie you can with a good story and leave the 'message' at the door.
District 9 is very blunt, on-the-nose socio-political commentary. It is, again, everything people seem to be worried about -- a blatantly political message underlying entertaining genre fare.
Movies have always been used to express social and political views, and it's been a staple of science fiction since its inception. The entire genre is regularly used, and really best used, to recontextualise contemporary problems in a palatable way that gets people to think. Metropolis isn't just a movie about a lady robot.
If District 9 is somehow the bar for subtlety, what are people honestly expecting in this TV series? How much more overt can you get?
Even prior to movies the opera for example has held great social and political influence ever since the 16th century.
It's always been around and always will be. I'm not above using woke if it's something really on the nose and distracting to the point it takes away from the experience, but in this case given that there is a lack of any actual evidence to be able to conclusively suggest that this series will be "woke" I think it's just people being angry because words like socio-political commentary are big enough to invoke insecurity in some.
That's my 5 cents.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 05, 2021, 06:25:50 AM
District 9 is very blunt, on-the-nose socio-political commentary. It is, again, everything people seem to be worried about -- a blatantly political message underlying entertaining genre fare.
Movies have always been used to express social and political views, and it's been a staple of science fiction since its inception. The entire genre is regularly used, and really best used, to recontextualise contemporary problems in a palatable way that gets people to think. Metropolis isn't just a movie about a lady robot.
If District 9 is somehow the bar for subtlety, what are people honestly expecting in this TV series? How much more overt can you get?
Ok m8.
I just wish people would say the quiet part out loud and be done with it. All this PC beating around the bush is tiring.
District 9 – subtle right down to the marketing!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdistrict9campaign.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F1%2F2%2F9%2F6%2F12962760%2F3060998.jpg%3F443&hash=c89d57416fde5ac025557103c620aeb7cc87b51d)
What's wild to me that I've noticed so many of the grifters that seem to be against the very nature of socio-political commentary in Hawley's show also saying that instead of this "woke" interpretation of Alien that we should have gotten Blomkamp's film instead. You know, Blomkamp, the guy that explicitly made science-fiction movies that prominently explore racism, class division and the monopolization of health care, and the militarization of an automated police state. Subtle.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 05, 2021, 08:30:41 AM
I just wish people would say the quiet part out loud and be done with it. All this PC beating around the bush is tiring.
Alright, I'll bite. What's the quiet part? What kind of broad brush will be painting them all with?
Quote from: Rush Hour Rambo on Jul 05, 2021, 06:09:47 AM
There's no nuance and it's being done in an incredibly clumsy way. The only movie of recent times which I think is an exception is District 9.
Jesus H Chr*st, have you even seen the film?
Why do I come back to this conversation?
Everything is Political, Especially the Alien Saga (https://25yearslatersite.com/2021/07/05/beyond-the-screen-4-everything-is-political-especially-the-alien-saga/)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jul 05, 2021, 12:43:21 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jul 05, 2021, 08:30:41 AM
I just wish people would say the quiet part out loud and be done with it. All this PC beating around the bush is tiring.
Alright, I'll bite. What's the quiet part? What kind of broad brush will be painting them all with?
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jul 05, 2021, 12:43:21 PM
Alright, I'll bite. What's the quiet part? What kind of broad brush will be painting them all with?
I'm not painting anything.
This show needs a Canto Bight episode.
That's a pointless quest, which has no impact on the main plot? If we are in that, how about the black-goo monster of the week episode?
Quote from: SiL on Jul 05, 2021, 06:25:50 AM
District 9 is very blunt, on-the-nose socio-political commentary. It is, again, everything people seem to be worried about -- a blatantly political message underlying entertaining genre fare.
Movies have always been used to express social and political views, and it's been a staple of science fiction since its inception. The entire genre is regularly used, and really best used, to recontextualise contemporary problems in a palatable way that gets people to think. Metropolis isn't just a movie about a lady robot.
If District 9 is somehow the bar for subtlety, what are people honestly expecting in this TV series? How much more overt can you get?
I think District 9 works for American viewers because we aren't as well learned about South Africa's history, so lots of the political messaging went over our heads.
Now, if you did the same thing and set is in Louisiana or Mississippi or some shit, it would resonate differently.
The US doesn't have a history of racial segregation that might've clued anyone in ... ?
...............Obviously, it is in my last sentence.
However because America is the only country that matters I wasn't automatically equating it to apartheid. It just kind of came across as a general anti-segregation message.
My point is you still got the anti-segregationist message and anti-xenophobic undertones, regardless of how familiar you are with South Africa's history.
I'm Australian, not exactly au fait with apartheid, but it's hard not to get the gist.
The gist was there, connecting it automatically to apartheid was not. I didn't even know whats his nuts was South African, or that District 9 was District 6 simply flipped upside down. I think apartheid was about one paragraph in a middle school social studies book.
It would be like making a sci fi movie of the burning of black wall street, and then expecting everybody else in the world to be familiar with it. People could still figure it out, but I feel that it would be more impactful to Americans.
But you didn't need to connect it to apartheid specifically, as most countries these days have some history of racial segregation and intolerance. The political messaging is clear regardless of whether you connect it to that country's history or your own.
You can miss it's about South Africa. You can't miss it's about racial segregation.
:D Man, title of this thread is pure cringe
I guess, it's supposed to be
It is the cringe I feel any time I hear someone unironically call something "woke"
Imagine thinking District 9 subtle...
To add to this:
Just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean it never was there. I recall many YouTube videos of experts in various fields placing opinions on films of how a certain thing doesn't really work or how it succeeded in doing so. One video was how some former special forces soldier talked about the subway scene in John Wick 2 that the silencers are actually still found in real like and that the people would have panicked by now. Sure its a film that bends the rules to make it fun but for people educated on the area of course its going to be notable to them. Just like how people have awareness of any subject like say politics, they are going to spot things in a film better than others. Not because they are actively looking for them but rather they simply just know what they know and can spot theses things without even trying for it.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 06, 2021, 09:57:24 AM
It is the cringe I feel any time I hear someone unironically call something "woke"
Because it's not a real thing?
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jul 06, 2021, 08:36:53 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jul 06, 2021, 09:57:24 AM
It is the cringe I feel any time I hear someone unironically call something "woke"
Because it's not a real thing?
Because most of the time it is used in this capacity, it is by people screaming their political agendas into the void on social media about how they don't want other people to use media to present their own political agendas... because apparently diversity and using media to explore the current political climate is awful, but screeching about "The SJWs!!!" and wanting to burn Brie Larson and Kathleen Kennedy at the stake is just fine.
Also, these people tend to fail to realize that film – art in general, really – has
always been political.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jul 06, 2021, 09:14:48 PM
Because most of the time it is used in this capacity, it is by people screaming their political agendas into the void on social media about how they don't want other people to use media to present their own political agendas... because apparently diversity and using media to explore the current political climate is awful, but screeching about "The SJWs!!!" and wanting to burn Brie Larson and Kathleen Kennedy at the stake is just fine.
Also, these people tend to fail to realize that film – art in general, really – has always been political.
I'd like SiL's opinion, it's why I asked him the question.
Yes, I'm aware words and terms often get misused.
That art has always been political is pure bs.
I used to draw in class because I was bored. Where do the politics come in?
Or let's say I use clay to make a fake piece of dog poo for my hypothetical son?
Art depends on the eye of the beholder. You're a political person I assume, which is fine, and you see politics everywhere. As a religious person would see religious stuff everywhere.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jul 06, 2021, 10:55:44 PM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jul 06, 2021, 09:14:48 PM
Because most of the time it is used in this capacity, it is by people screaming their political agendas into the void on social media about how they don't want other people to use media to present their own political agendas... because apparently diversity and using media to explore the current political climate is awful, but screeching about "The SJWs!!!" and wanting to burn Brie Larson and Kathleen Kennedy at the stake is just fine.
Also, these people tend to fail to realize that film – art in general, really – has always been political.
I'd like SiL's opinion, it's why I asked him the question.
Yes, I'm aware words and terms often get misused.
That art has always been political is pure bs.
I used to draw in class because I was bored. Where do the politics come in?
Or let's say I use clay to make a fake piece of dog poo for my hypothetical son?
Art depends on the eye of the beholder. You're a political person I assume, which is fine, and you see politics everywhere. As a religious person would see religious stuff everywhere.
I didn't say
every single piece of art is political. I said art has always been political. Using art to make a statement or explore a political ideology isn't something that some random filmmaker just pulled out of their ass five years ago that has now caught traction, and just because you didn't understand or pick up on a massage being conveyed in an older movie you watched doesn't mean it hasn't been there since day one.
What even is a "political person," honestly? I exist in the world, and engage in what's going on around me and see that influenced in (and influenced by) the media that is made by other people that also exist in this world. So yeah, I guess if that's your definition, I'm a "political person."
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jul 06, 2021, 10:55:44 PM
Or let's say I use clay to make a fake piece of dog poo for my hypothetical son?
(https://i.imgur.com/l2yLTHV.gif)
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jul 06, 2021, 08:36:53 PM
Because it's not a real thing?
Because it's a cringey, meaningless buzz-word used to trivialise things.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jul 06, 2021, 11:08:07 PM
I didn't say every single piece of art is political. I said art has always been political. Using art to make a statement or explore a political ideology isn't something that some random filmmaker just pulled out of their ass five years ago that has now caught traction, and just because you didn't understand or pick up on a massage being conveyed in an older movie you watched doesn't mean it hasn't been there since day one.
What even is a "political person," honestly? I exist in the world, and engage in what's going on around me and see that influenced in (and influenced by) the media that is made by other people that also exist in this world. So yeah, I guess if that's your definition, I'm a "political person."
If not every single piece art is political, art hasn't been always political.
Isn't that how it works?
Your reaction is the same as those who don't think certain movies are political. .
Quote from: random personSo yeah, I guess if that's your definition, you could call that movie "political"
See how that works. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's false.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 06, 2021, 11:20:41 PM
Because it's a cringey, meaningless buzz-word used to trivialise things.
How about conspiracy?
When it's an issue for a certain side, the language is stupid.
When it involves the other side, no problem. No exaggeration at all.
Not even sure what point you're trying to make at the end there.
My use of conspiracy is aimed at how insubstantial some claims are and how they're defended with "oh, you really think that's not the case?" without any evidence. That's the language of conspiracy theories.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 07, 2021, 02:56:23 AM
Not even sure what point you're trying to make at the end there.
My use of conspiracy is aimed at how insubstantial some claims are and how they're defended with "oh, you really think that's not the case?" without any evidence. That's the language of conspiracy theories.
Point?
You using terms as conspiracy theory could be viewed the same way as how you view others using the term woke.
I think a lof it are just theories, ideas,... Haven't seen much of the conspiracy part or maybe I missed some older posts.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jul 07, 2021, 03:27:15 AM
You using terms as conspiracy theory could be viewed the same way as how you view others using the term woke.
... and?
Again, what point are you trying to make here? Did I say I only use the most widely accepted, universally approved terminology myself? You asked my opinion about a specific word, I gave it. If you think saying "conspiracy" is cringe-worthy then ... good for you? I don't know what you want from me.
And you complain about things you yourself are doing.
Point being you're hypocrite.
Am I using the word "woke" unironically? That's the only thing I've complained about.
Even then, didn't complain. Just said I cringe at the word's use.
This really isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.
I'm sensing a lot of hostility over something so little.
That's what she said.
If anyone can work out what the problem is please feel free to let me know; I am deeply confused :laugh:
Well I can't really blame you for being confused when from my perspective you at least seem to be trying to have a real conversation with the guy but with Baron I get the impression he just seems more interested in winning which makes it less of a conversation and more of a sort of shouting contest.
My 5 cents.
Also Huggs for once in my entire existence I'm actually proud of you, but don't let it go to your head.
I simply look at it this way:
According to SiL, woke isn't a real thing but a cringey, meaningless buzz-word used to trivialise things.
Yet he doesn't mind using the term conspiracy theory for the same reason.
Which is imo a hypocrite thing to do.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 07, 2021, 04:55:39 AM
Am I using the word "woke" unironically? That's the only thing I've complained about.
Even then, didn't complain. Just said I cringe at the word's use.
This really isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.
You're not complaining that's why you started a topic about the issue?
And you said it's a cringey, meaningless buzz-word used to trivialise things.
Wasn't going for any gotcha moment. But since you mentioned it, you already did that when you approved of people being picked because of their race/skin colour.
Quote from: Crazy Rich on Jul 07, 2021, 05:22:52 AM
I'm sensing a lot of hostility over something so little.
If so, I apologize.
I often appear that way, especially in a debate. But in the end, that's all it is to me, debating. People exchanging opinions.
He didn't insult me one time, don't think I insulted him. When that starts it's usually when things go off track.
Should this be a real life debate, I wouldn't mind having drinks with him after the whole thing.
Because I'm a lover, not a fighter. ;D
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jul 07, 2021, 05:55:27 AM
According to SiL, woke isn't a real thing but a cringey, meaningless buzz-word used to trivialise things.
Yet he doesn't mind using the term conspiracy theory for the same reason.
I don't use the term "conspiracy theory" to trivialise anything. You said others could see it as me doing that -- I never said that's what I was doing.
QuoteYou're not complaining that's why you started a topic about the issue?
I started it to discuss why people think the franchise going "woke" was new, not to pick on the word.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jul 06, 2021, 11:08:07 PM
What even is a "political person," honestly? I exist in the world, and engage in what's going on around me and see that influenced in (and influenced by) the media that is made by other people that also exist in this world. So yeah, I guess if that's your definition, I'm a "political person."
I think this, with the context of awareness, is ironically an excellent definition of Woke. Not so much the modern pejorative, but the original idea.
Having said that, being conscious of or actively analyzing the political implications of everything on the daily sounds f**king exhausting and I'm glad I can decide when a cigar is just a cigar within my individual narrative of the world.
People (not necessarily in this thread or even on this forum) not realizing that the Alien franchise has had all kinds of (https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-airquote.gif)woke(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-airquote.gif) symbolism and messaging right from jump will never stop being hilarious to me.
I think the concern certain people are having is that it will be used excessively, for the sole purpose of helping the director making a very loud and clear political statement, in favor of his own values.
While I'm not as concerned about the political stuff as some, I do hope he wouldn't f**k up the show up for the sake of sermonizing. That would be disappointing, because this is a unique opportunity that we may never see again.
2021 fans of Alien and Predator are so very surface level. I can't stand the way fans talk about Amber Midthunder leading Skulls, the fanbase seems so ready to shit on the film before its even finished wrapping.
It's AMAZING to me how these, primarily, men don't realize the deeper themes on display in both franchises.
Quote from: Leggs.stl on Jul 29, 2021, 06:15:51 PM
It's AMAZING to me how these, primarily, men don't realize the deeper themes on display in both franchises.
(https://em.wattpad.com/7fc2957afcc0f584d4f2e81e045b56a8a0bd4ee0/68747470733a2f2f73332e616d617a6f6e6177732e636f6d2f776174747061642d6d656469612d736572766963652f53746f7279496d6167652f6a303038303638546c47716d42513d3d2d313936312e313564623537396363333364323337313630393037373631393134322e676966?s=fit&w=720&h=720)
Go watch some He-Man, blockheads!
Quote from: Leggs.stl on Jul 29, 2021, 06:15:51 PM
2021 fans of Alien and Predator are so very surface level. I can't stand the way fans talk about Amber Midthunder leading Skulls, the fanbase seems so ready to shit on the film before its even finished wrapping.
It's AMAZING to me how these, primarily, men don't realize the deeper themes on display in both franchises.
If you're referring to Predator being a statement about performative masculinity, I confidently feel that
both men and women equally don't see Predator that way, nor must they. It's interpretation over intent. I don't believe either the Thomas Brothers nor John McTiernan have ever said they have chased such a lofty subtext.
But I agree with you regarding Skulls and Amber Midthunder. I just wish critics would wait to see the film first before making such harsh and/or unfair conclusions.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jul 29, 2021, 08:33:02 PM
I just wish critics would wait to see the film first before making such harsh and/or unfair conclusions.
Pffft, where's fun in that, ammeright ?
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jul 29, 2021, 08:33:02 PM
Quote from: Leggs.stl on Jul 29, 2021, 06:15:51 PM
2021 fans of Alien and Predator are so very surface level. I can't stand the way fans talk about Amber Midthunder leading Skulls, the fanbase seems so ready to shit on the film before its even finished wrapping.
It's AMAZING to me how these, primarily, men don't realize the deeper themes on display in both franchises.
If you're referring to Predator being a statement about performative masculinity, I confidently feel that both men and women equally don't see Predator that way, nor must they. It's interpretation over intent. I don't believe either the Thomas Brothers nor John McTiernan have ever said they have chased such a lofty subtext.
But I agree with you regarding Skulls and Amber Midthunder. I just wish critics would wait to see the film first before making such harsh and/or unfair conclusions.
My point isn't to force people into viewing Predator in any specific way, but instead to consider what is presented on screen in a more open sense. Interpretation vs intent can be thrown around individual peoples goals, but something like a film production is much more complicated, many people making many decisions. Yeah, the director nor the writers never came out and said that the film is a statement on performative masculinity, they also never made any statements decrying the notion. Even if they DID say that the film was supposed to be viewed in a specific way, what was ultimately released DEFINITELY feels like somebody, somewhere, had a pretty loft subtext for the film. And that's ignoring the social issues that were really big back then.
It is a FOOLS notion to think that films don't reflect the anxiety of the time they were released, even more so in science fiction films.
I think most people just go "hehehe plasma caster go BRRRT" and then forget it exists after the credits roll.
Quote from: Leggs.stl on Jul 29, 2021, 09:04:59 PM
Yeah, the director nor the writers never came out and said that the film is a statement on performative masculinity, they also never made any statements decrying the notion.
You're free to interpret Predator any way you want through your own prism, but using this logic means every theory a fan comes up with can be true if the makers don't decry the notion. So it's a bit silly to say imo.
QuoteEven if they DID say that the film was supposed to be viewed in a specific way, what was ultimately released DEFINITELY feels like somebody, somewhere, had a pretty loft subtext for the film. And that's ignoring the social issues that were really big back then.
Honestly to me, it doesn't. I was alive back then and in general, big muscle men in action roles were the superheroes of its time and not deep statements of toxic masculinity. In my experience, I don't even think the majority of wide society was even familiar with phrases like toxic masculinity and perfomative masculinity or similar perspectives. That came years later.
QuoteIt is a FOOLS notion to think that films don't reflect the anxiety of the time they were released, even more so in science fiction films.
Some films did. Some films didn't. Not all did by design. And let's refrain from using statements like fools notion or making sweeping comments about either sex like before please. Let's make sure we're being completely respectful. Thanks! :)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jul 29, 2021, 09:37:00 PM
Quote from: Leggs.stl on Jul 29, 2021, 09:04:59 PM
Yeah, the director nor the writers never came out and said that the film is a statement on performative masculinity, they also never made any statements decrying the notion.
You're free to interpret Predator any way you want through your own prism, but using this logic means every theory a fan comes up with can be true if the makers don't decry the notion. So it's a bit silly to say imo.
QuoteEven if they DID say that the film was supposed to be viewed in a specific way, what was ultimately released DEFINITELY feels like somebody, somewhere, had a pretty loft subtext for the film. And that's ignoring the social issues that were really big back then.
Honestly to me, it doesn't. I was alive back then and in general, big muscle men in action roles were the superheroes of its time and not deep statements of toxic masculinity. In my experience, I don't even think the majority of wide society was even familiar with phrases like toxic masculinity and perfomative masculinity or similar perspectives. That came years later.
QuoteIt is a FOOLS notion to think that films don't reflect the anxiety of the time they were released, even more so in science fiction films.
Some films did. Some films didn't. Not all did by design. And let's refrain from using statements like fools notion or making sweeping comments about either sex like before please. Let's make sure we're being completely respectful. Thanks! :)
You're right ! The idea of toxic masculinity did come YEARS later, when I mentioned deeper themes I was referring to a different specific theory. I realize that after my comment about the lead actress it could come across that was referring toxic masculinity. Its my belief that the film could be interpreted as a statement on generalized homophobia/aids-phobia. I wasn't alive in the 80s, but its my understanding that sometimes filmmakers coded queer characters into villians, killers, or otherwise monstrous caricatures.
I apologize for my generalized comments, it wasn't my intention to offend.
All films reflect the anxieties of the time they're made because they're made by people suffering the anxieties of the time they're made, whether by intent or not.
That's why films change over time. Tastes change, perceptions change, society changes, and art both leads and reflects that.
People will say "but it's just an action movie" without stopping to think whether that kind of action movie would be made in another time.
For example:
Even the most generic 80s action movie, bereft of any attempt at meaning but full of blood, drugs, and carnage, is a reflection and comment on the time it was made - if only because that same "meaningless" film would never get past the pitch stage in, say, the 1950s.
The fact a creative team thought to write it and a producer thought to greenlight it and that an audience thought nothing of it, where a few decades before it would've been scandalous, is social commentary.
We write into our stories those things that seem normal or strange to us, and in doing so reflect the society we grew up in that taught us what was normal and what was strange.
It's inescapable.
Look at all those fifties red scare scifi movies.
Or anti-nuclear 50s sci fi.
Or 50s sci fi that cast the unethical scientist who felt the end justifies the means as the villain - or the hero who just learn and make amends for this flaw.
Etc etc etc
If somebody wants to believe that J.H. just wanted dat ass, more power to em. Doesn't bother me.
For me, predator is just a real good action movie. No more, no less. Shouldn't bother anyone else.
What is or isn't art, what art means, etc. is one of those things that never goes over well. Watch movies, see what you want to see, and enjoy yourself.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 30, 2021, 12:28:00 AM
All films reflect the anxieties of the time they're made because they're made by people suffering the anxieties of the time they're made, whether by intent or not.
That's why films change over time. Tastes change, perceptions change, society changes, and art both leads and reflects that.
People will say "but it's just an action movie" without stopping to think whether that kind of action movie would be made in another time.
For example:
Even the most generic 80s action movie, bereft of any attempt at meaning but full of blood, drugs, and carnage, is a reflection and comment on the time it was made - if only because that same "meaningless" film would never get past the pitch stage in, say, the 1950s.
The fact a creative team thought to write it and a producer thought to greenlight it and that an audience thought nothing of it, where a few decades before it would've been scandalous, is social commentary.
We write into our stories those things that seem normal or strange to us, and in doing so reflect the society we grew up in that taught us what was normal and what was strange.
It's inescapable.
This all being a product of its time, different from a film having a deliberate theme and subtext.
I never said otherwise.
But it does mean that in reflecting the times they're made in, they inevitably contain themes and subtexts regardless of whether they were consciously intended or not.
Don't you know Predator is a commentary on homosexual promiscuity in the AIDS epidemic?
https://classic-horror.com/newsreel/homosexuality_and_the_threat_of_aids_in_predator.html
So is Alien 3!
Quote from: RidgeTop on Jul 30, 2021, 09:28:42 AM
Don't you know Predator is a commentary on homosexual promiscuity in the AIDS epidemic?
https://classic-horror.com/newsreel/homosexuality_and_the_threat_of_aids_in_predator.html
Don't tell me they bring up KPH death there
Literally the last sentence of the piece.
One can see anything in anything, if they want to see it bad enough.
wow
Spoiler
(https://i.redd.it/jcotyk38eci51.gif)
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 30, 2021, 12:22:07 PM
One can see anything in anything, if they want to see it bad enough.
Indeed.
It all doesn't matter if the story is engaging. People shouldn't be worried about things like that, if the writing is good you will forget the wokeness in no time.
If the story is engaging, then more likely than not that means that you're connecting with the ideas that it is conveying. The "wokness," if that's what you want to call it.
Yeah, complaining about "wokeness" when it comes to the Alien movies is kind of silly. There's a heavy "woke" streak in each and every Alien movie, although much less so when it comes to PROM and A:C. If anything Hawley is kind of going back to the roots, so to speak. The difference is that we live in social media era where people share their thoughts and opinions 24/7, directly pointing out one's thoughts and intentions beforehand rather than sharing it later on when being interviewed about the show.
Quote from: Dachande on Aug 18, 2021, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Aug 18, 2021, 04:47:11 PM
To be fair, I'm not sure which side of the argument makes me want to puke more: people who are racist/sexist/homophobic or people who think of themselves as clever accusing others of racism/sexism/homophobia
I mean.... it should absolutely be the racist/sexist/homophobic people. It's shouldnt really even be a debate.
RIGHT? They practically proved my point.
JFC that comment they just reminds me of how the Polish nationallists presented the Nazi flag, USSR flag, and LGBTQ flag as being equally evil... Yes God forbid LGBTQ people not be discriminated and have equality.
(https://notesfrompoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/powstanie-1080x675.jpg)
Quote from: Chris!(($$))! on Aug 18, 2021, 05:04:04 PM
Quote from: Dachande on Aug 18, 2021, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Aug 18, 2021, 04:47:11 PM
To be fair, I'm not sure which side of the argument makes me want to puke more: people who are racist/sexist/homophobic or people who think of themselves as clever accusing others of racism/sexism/homophobia
I mean.... it should absolutely be the racist/sexist/homophobic people. It's shouldnt really even be a debate.
RIGHT? They practically proved my point.
JFC that comment they just reminds me of how the Polish nationallists presented the Nazi flag, USSR flag, and LGBTQ flag as being equally evil... Yes God forbid LGBTQ people not be discriminated and have equality.
(https://notesfrompoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/powstanie-1080x675.jpg)
Let's chill out a bit. I'm fairly certain he's referring to the type of people that will scream at any injustice they can.
Yes
You're right. I did go a bit too far. Sorry for that.
As far as I'm concerned, these progressive themes have always been prevalent and should continue to be. I think when they when they are TOO nuanced and subtle so as to not distract from the narrative, it tends to just fit the status quo. Its okay for the themes to be overt as well. Like in District 9 which apparently was subtle to some? Im not sure how.
Thank you for making a specific thread for this, now I can avoid it like the plague and enjoy my Alien movies alone and in peace.
Quote from: Chris!(($$))! on Aug 18, 2021, 05:32:06 PM
Its okay for the themes to be overt as well. Like in District 9 which apparently was subtle to some? Im not sure how.
It's not about subtlety, it just came out before they got radicalized post-gamergate.
Quote from: Dingbat on Aug 18, 2021, 05:47:26 PM
Thank you for making a specific thread for this, now I can avoid it like the plague and enjoy my Alien movies alone and in peace.
I wish I shared your optimism.
Yeah, the notion that a lot of these people were sort of 'radicalized' fairly recently (as in, within the last ten or so years) to this strange "keep politics out of my fiction" mantra is absolutely a major element at play here, I'd say, since any and all political intent in modern media/art is suddenly an inherent problem to these people that never saw what are literally the same exact ideas/critiques being explored in media/art of the past as a problem (even within the very same franchises!). It's such a weird dichotomy, where because something predates the current internet culture it isn't seen as political by certain people that grew up with it/enjoyed it before they were paying attention to such things, and now that they are old/mature/whatever enough to "get it" and criticize it in more modern releases, they still for some reason keep this mental block up and pretend that it was never there in the first place and that its presence is, somehow, this brand new, invasive element only existing in the modern fiction that they're taking in.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 18, 2021, 08:49:47 PM
Yeah, the notion that a lot of these people were sort of 'radicalized' fairly recently (as in, within the last ten or so years) to this strange "keep politics out of my fiction" mantra is absolutely a major element at play here, I'd say, since any and all political intent in modern media/art is suddenly an inherent problem to these people that never saw what are literally the same exact ideas/critiques being explored in media/art of the past as a problem (even within the very same franchises!). It's such a weird dichotomy, where because something predates the current internet culture it isn't seen as political by certain people that grew up with it/enjoyed it before they were paying attention to such things, and now that they are old/mature/whatever enough to "get it" and criticize it in more modern releases, they still for some reason keep this mental block up and pretend that it was never there in the first place and that its presence is, somehow, this brand new, invasive element only existing in the modern fiction that they're taking in.
1000%
Yeah, well said NA.
Alien is about pew-pew cool marines blowing up "xenomorphs" with awesome smartguns and wokeness is casting black people instead of the best people for the job, who everyone knows are white.
For me, I personally believe these problems are two fold when it comes to this and artistic expression, perpetuated by both sides: The small loud portion of people on one side, knee-jerk reacting that everytime something gets political or a strong female is hired or an established white character's race is swapped with someone of color it's part of some sort of agenda and not to the betterment of a story.... or.... the small loud portion of people on the other side, who couldn't believe there sometimes is an agenda taking priority over the betterment of a story and anyone who sees it is just plain racist/insert-insult-here.
Fortunately, I believe the silent majority of us sit in the middle of the issue regardless of political affiliation (if any) and just try to apply some common sense to each case AFTER we've seen the artistic expression.
Like the very Liberal and very funny Comedian & Political Commentary host Bill Maher. He recognizes inclusion is important, but also calls it out when he believes one takes it too far, like for instance his thoughts on when the rules for the Academy Awards just changed, where a film can't be eligible for Best Picture anymore unless the film meets requirements of inclusion.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Aug 23, 2021, 02:42:18 PM
For me, I personally believe these problems are two fold when it comes to this and artistic expression, perpetuated by both sides: The small loud portion of people on one side, knee-jerk reacting that everytime something gets political or a strong female is hired or an established white character's race is swapped with someone of color it's part of some sort of agenda and not to the betterment of a story.... or.... the small loud portion of people on the other side, who couldn't believe there sometimes is an agenda taking priority over the betterment of a story and anyone who sees it is just plain racist/insert-insult-here.
If we just delete Twitter we can have progress without histrionics.
It would be interesting if Twitter would take a cue from OnlyFans and treat performative outrage and virtue-signaling like the masturbation it is.
I don't know man, I'm just very tired of this political nonsense on both end on the spectrum. I dislike the anti-SJW equally as much as SJW. It seems like nowadays that it's more about taking down the other party rather to see them improved. But that's just my thoughts, I just want to Judge a film or TV show without getting political.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 04, 2021, 07:33:14 AM
In light of Noah Hawley's comments that the Alien TV series will feature socio-political commentary, people seem to have come out of the woodwork decrying that the series is going "woke" and that this will, somehow, ruin the project entirely.
But has the Alien franchise ever actually been asleep?
Rather than derail the TV series thread -- or somehow work this into existing politics thread, which is more garnered to, y'know, actual politics -- I thought we could make a dedicated thread to discuss whether this is some horrifying new development, or just par for the course.
I think its that people are going by the
modern version of woke which is cancel culture, forced political messages, virtue signaling, power fantasies, changing races/gender of characters while condeming white/men doing it, and mary/gary sues. Which is bad because it undermines the actual good stuff that true "equality" does.
If the tv series simply goes by common decency and makes a good story with good character regardless of gender/race/orientation and politics then I don't see there being much to worry about the show.
The franchise has always been good without going twisted and overboard like what is happening today. We have had female leads, lgbt plus characters (quite a lot actually) and it is done right and naturally.
Quote from: Thatguy2068 on Oct 21, 2021, 06:11:03 PM
I don't know man, I'm just very tired of this political nonsense on both end on the spectrum. I dislike the anti-SJW equally as much as SJW. It seems like nowadays that it's more about taking down the other party rather to see them improved. But that's just my thoughts, I just want to Judge a film or TV show without getting political.
Agreed. It seems like the anti-SJWs are the new SJWs. Looking for outrage in everything so they can be outraged about the outrage. The hyper-connected nature of society and modern tribalism only feeds this. There are just countless anti-SJW YouTube channels these days farming for those clicks. "Can you believe what woke Hollywood is doing to our childhood franchises now!?"
There's no nuance. Yeah woke culture and hypersensitivity is a thing and is often very deserving of criticism, but art has always had pieces with progressive outlooks, that pushed societal boundaries and asked significant questions. Often this can just be pandering and handled haphazardly, but that doesn't justify writing something off based on assumptions from a synopsis or what was said during an interview with a showrunner.
Subtly and/or well written stuff that fits with the film does help when there is something to say though i.e the colonial marines being comparable to the vietnam era soldiers.