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Games => Alien-Predator Games => Topic started by: OpenMaw on Jun 03, 2018, 07:43:53 AM

Title: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 03, 2018, 07:43:53 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/frkOZf3.jpg)

I don't know if this has ever been posted here before, but I found this very very interesting. Some CGI done by the guy who created the title screen for AVP on Jaguar. Looks like experimentation and the like. It's always cool to see early CGI and just how far it came in such a short number of years.

https://www.dal.net/ahd/art/alien/alien.html (https://www.dal.net/ahd/art/alien/alien.html)
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: 426Buddy on Jun 03, 2018, 02:09:04 PM
 :laugh:

I used to think that image was all kinds of amazing when i was young lol. I saw ir with an article in a gaming mag. Still love it for the nostalgia though.

I wanted to play avp jag so badly. I wish i had been able to play it back then. When i could have appreciated the graphics. I played the rom many years later but it was too dated by then.

I was all over avp99 when that came out though. I forced my parents to upgrade our computer for it.  ;D
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 03, 2018, 07:01:31 PM
I actually owned a Jaguar for awhile, and AVP was the first game I sought out.

Honestly, if it didn't move like such a slog it would be a fairly enjoyable FPS game, but playing it on the native hardware, it's one of those thumb-blistering games where you feel yourself holding down the directional buttons to get any kind of reaction out of the game. The biggest issue is that the game has an awful frame rate which keeps it from playing smoothly.

It's also a shame because I think the game itself has some really great atmosphere. We didn't really get as nearly an atmospheric game until Alien Isolation. It's all about the bassy hum of the station with the random noises in the distance, and the howling of the air circulation system in the vent shafts.

I'd love to see someone actually remake the Jaguar AVP in a modern engine with design upgrades (obviously more intricate level layouts, but the same concept and tone.)
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: lost dragon on Jun 04, 2018, 08:58:05 PM
Slow movement was done on purpose according to Rebellion:

"...Yes, the slower movement was intentional. All of the characters could have
moved as fast as the alien, but we wanted each to have it's own feel. We
did complain quite a bit about the turning speed, but were told that there
wasn't anything that could be done with it. We also requested a run for
the Marine and Predator as well, but it got pushed down the priority list
and dropped due to the need to get the game out. We also had a lot of
other nifty things we wanted to put into the game that got cut because of
time.

Dan
ex-Atari, Lead Tester of AvP"
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 05, 2018, 12:29:50 AM
I'm not talking about the movement speed. I'm talking about the games reaction to input. Acceleration is slow, turning is slow, and it's because the frame rate is very clearly shit. It drops hard whenever multiple enemies are on screen. It feels like you're struggling with the controller at times.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: lost dragon on Jun 05, 2018, 03:37:26 AM
It's been so many years since i played it, i honestly cannot remember the input lag etc.

I loved it at the time, it was basically the Aliens game i had longed for, atmosphere espically,  but it was heavily flawed in key areas.

I still rate it higher than the likes of Alien Trilogy on Playstation 1 and as an experience Rebellion's last AVP which i played on PS3.

It would be superb to see it remastered in a modern game engine and have the flaws adressed and planned  extras added.


Rebellion remastered Rogue Trooper so they aren't against the idea of touching up past titles.
I wonder who holds the AVP licence now?
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 05, 2018, 06:56:58 AM
Alien Trilogy has probably aged better because it leaned closer to Doom in terms of game structure. Where as AVP on Jaguar tried to be more of a survival horror experience and it has the design of one long continuous experience from game start to game end.

I think it's still with SEGA at this point if i'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: lost dragon on Jun 05, 2018, 02:29:02 PM
Few more quotes etc from those involved in Jaguar AVP:

Andrew Whittaker has been quoted as saying that before all of the objects and creatures were placed,the 3D engine was running at about 50-60 frames per second. Due to the tracking and AI of all of these creatures,the engine slowed down to its present pace and he was willing to sacrifice speed for more realistic (and devious) AI...

Andrew is also quoted as saying that he also slowed the frame rate down on purpose, to make players think a bit more, ie did'nt want people rushing about like they did in other FPS.

Here's Lance Lewis talking about the speed reduction in AVP:

Greg: Was it really faster in a prev version than the final?
Lance: As long as there were no objects in the game, the engine was FLYING. As soon as the sprites were there.... Ugh. ;)
K3V: Yeah it's rumored to have been slowed down on purpose... Was that true?
Peter: I thought it was so slow because it had to calculate all those aliens running around
Lance: K3V, I don't think that was totally true, only that the alien had faster speed, that was about it.

Source:

http://www.ataritimes.com/index.php?ArticleIDX=499


Rebellion were at this point still a small development team and the Jaguar hardware and development tools had issues of their own to contend with, so i can see why the game suffered at times.

I appreciate it for trying to do something different to Doom and also not go the 2D side scrolling route like the AVP games before it,but i honestly couldn't play it today.

Rebellion had talked of doing another AVP games,years ago,but nothing came of it.

If Sega do still hold the license,  i wish they'd use it.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: skull-splitter on Jun 08, 2018, 11:22:21 PM
Still have an Atari Jaguar with the AvP cassette, might try to play it during my summer vacation.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 09, 2018, 12:38:22 AM
I was actually really lucky to get my hands on a Jaguar in really good condition with AVP complete in it's box, with all the overlays intact.

and I was a stupid dumb idiot kid at the time and sold it for a measely hundred bucks. I'm still kicking myself over that. I had pretty much all the classics for the Jaguar too.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jun 11, 2018, 07:28:38 AM
It's one of my holy grail items. I will get one - and AvP one day. I've been managing to snag all the older holy grail pieces and I will get this too. I will!
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: lost dragon on Jul 30, 2018, 07:40:00 PM
Updated the sites section on the game,via the comments section with a good few updates,over past few months:

https://www.avpgalaxy.net/games/alien-vs-predator-atari-jaguar/

All helps build bigger picture.

Starting to get impression there wasn't a great deal of love between Atari in the USA and Rebellion here in the UK, so had to leave out certain comments :-))
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Wweyland on Aug 01, 2018, 10:37:28 AM
Wow, this game almost had the Virtual Reality device. That ain't no Alien: Isolation with Oculus Rift though.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: lost dragon on Aug 03, 2018, 05:35:36 PM
Game could of had a lot of extra features and content:

Just posted up on the comments section for it, why the wall climbing Aliens and Predator Net weapons were cut 😢

Also the exclusive version Andrew Whittaker has/had with a knackered Predator who bitches and stops to smoke a cigarette. ..i kid you not 😂


And it seems there was a lot of ill feeling amongst the team during and after the game was developed.

Whittaker and Lewis don't seen keen on Rebellion...

Rebellion say once the A.I routines were finished, Whittaker was free to return to freelance work.

Whittaker says Atari haven't paid me for AVP sales. .

Atari via Don Thomas said that's completely untrue.

Yikes...
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Inverse Effect on Sep 08, 2018, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 05, 2018, 06:56:58 AM
Alien Trilogy has probably aged better because it leaned closer to Doom in terms of game structure. Where as AVP on Jaguar tried to be more of a survival horror experience and it has the design of one long continuous experience from game start to game end.

I think it's still with SEGA at this point if i'm not mistaken.

Yeah it's aged better. I still love playing that game.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Wweyland on Sep 08, 2018, 08:10:13 PM
I find Alien Trilogy slightly more playable but its more dumb fun while AvP Jaguar tries to be more of a simulation (and you get the Predator and Alien experience). I would say the graphics are about the same though.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: lost dragon on Oct 19, 2018, 06:17:20 AM
Andrew Whittaker doing some Q+A back in the day:

Q)So, is it true that the original AI for AvP was so good that the Predators went around and killed all the Aliens, thus making the game too easy?

A) I dont know as it made the game too easy having rampaging Predators, but yes
thats quite true. It was fun tho. You could hear alien screams around the
place all the time :)

Q) How many objects/enemies are actually being tracked and updated in real

A)Everything on the level you are currently on are tracked in realtime. This was the only way to maintain pack strategies wherein all the aliens, marines etc worked in defined groups with well defined objectives. There was over a
couple of hundred strategies per character type. The first one people usually find is "stupid alien" where an alien mills around a room aimlessly,
but is in reality there to distract you from all his pals being on route.

There are loads more. I shall have to discuss them all one day. But the basic point is yes, this is not doom or quake,everything is alive all the
time and plotting and scheming against you.

Q) Why were body armor and the "jump over acid" abilities dropped from the

A)The body armour didnt balance very well in gameplay. The jump over acid was
dropped for two reasons 1) you really have to think about where you kill
things 2) the cart was so full it would have meant dropping something else
to include it.

We (Luca and myself) at Unseen64 have some Q's sat with Andrew,now Jane Whittaker, doubt they will be answered as Jane has contradicted what was previously said on a number of occasions.

I also have another few misc Q's sat with another of the AVP team
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: lost dragon on Feb 16, 2019, 11:42:51 AM
Just so y'all know; Skyhammer is well-nigh finished; as ever, it's in
Atari's hands, not hours, but it ought to be in production, um, real
soon now. And I mean _real_ soon now. (but that's just our opinion, of
course).

Plans: like this says (hey, someone got it right for a change), no
plans for anything on the JagCd -- no plans for JagAvPII, blah blah
blah. Said it before, and I'll say it again.

-- dan (@ rebellion

Daniel.Mitchell
Fwiw -- the Gamesmaster review is about as accurate a review as can be
expected given the timescales of the review and 'real' (ie post 20th
Century Fox) release dates.
Secondly; the Aliens version of Doom is, um, all very well and good,
but 3D Studio rendered aliens are /not/ the same thing as digitised
images of models of aliens..

-- dan @ Rebellion
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: lost dragon on Mar 09, 2019, 08:22:23 PM
From Jane Whittaker:
,The aliens very much use their sense of smell to
seek you out. They were also coded to have acute hearing. Unlike the dooms
and quakes of the world the characters in AvP used hearing and smell in
addition to sight. If you make a lot of noise and dash around killing aliens
it will certainly attract attention to yourself. The best way to play is by stealth so they dont hear you...
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on May 04, 2019, 03:07:27 AM
I have come across an article about the game from German magazine - ST-Computer 12/1994. It has some screenshots from its very early version. The one with a predator HUD, I do not remember seeing before. There is a netgun in selection of weapons in it.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stcarchiv.de%2Fstc1994%2Fimages%2Favp3.jpg&hash=f3bbb3667083431cd83623bcf354d27b15bda14a)

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stcarchiv.de%2Fstc1994%2Fimages%2Favp4.jpg&hash=d7592aeb8cc2c827d05966baefe1015d0a28abf5)

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stcarchiv.de%2Fstc1994%2Fimages%2Favp2.jpg&hash=bfa258a0b90e30f27dab5c4cc3b2be55cef10c06)

Source: http://www.stcarchiv.de/stc1994/12/jaguar-alien-vs-predator
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: SiL on May 05, 2019, 09:05:19 AM
Is there any interesting information in the article itself?
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on May 05, 2019, 11:28:27 AM
Quote from: SiL on May 05, 2019, 09:05:19 AM
Is there any interesting information in the article itself?
No, nothing new in it, just a review but they explained a compression method of data the game uses.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 06, 2020, 03:55:00 AM
'Panel "Making Alien Vs. Predator for the Atari Jaguar - a 25th Anniversary retrospective" with James Hampton from the 2019 Portland Retro Gaming Expo (PRGE), October 18th - 20th, 2019.

Description: Come hear about the time James had to smuggle an Alien Queen through quarantine...seriously. James served as producer of AvP and will share a ton of insights into working with Fox Studios, Rebellion Games, and Atari.'

Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 06, 2020, 12:03:07 PM
It's interesting regarding the Lynx version coming first. Everyone tends to report that as being developed by Rebellion, whereas James is saying it was Image.


Another interview with James. Written this time. Covers some of the same stuff as the video, but some other interesting stories in there as well!

https://www.arcadeattack.co.uk/james-hampton/
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: The Old One on Jan 06, 2020, 06:38:53 PM
AVP Jaguar worth playing, and if so, can I emulate it?
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 06, 2020, 08:40:10 PM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 06, 2020, 06:38:53 PM
AVP Jaguar worth playing, and if so, can I emulate it?

Yes, you can. One of a better emulators is a Russian one called Phoenix. AvP seems to be emulated almost in 100% on it with only one glitch I have noticed. Wrongly displaying a texture for one type of door, but it is not a big issue.

However do not expect to be impressed by the game nowadays unless you are aware what other games were available in 1994 for comparison.


Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 06, 2020, 12:03:07 PM
It's interesting regarding the Lynx version coming first. Everyone tends to report that as being developed by Rebellion, whereas James is saying it was Image.

In an article "The Making Of: Alien Vs Predator" from Retro Gamer. No. 57 he has mentioned it as well.

https://ia800704.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/8/items/RetroGamerIssue056-060/Retro_Gamer_Issue_057_jp2.zip&file=Retro_Gamer_Issue_057_jp2/Retro_Gamer_Issue_057_0027.jp2&scale=4&rotate=0

https://ia800704.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/8/items/RetroGamerIssue056-060/Retro_Gamer_Issue_057_jp2.zip&file=Retro_Gamer_Issue_057_jp2/Retro_Gamer_Issue_057_0028.jp2&scale=4&rotate=0

https://ia800704.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/8/items/RetroGamerIssue056-060/Retro_Gamer_Issue_057_jp2.zip&file=Retro_Gamer_Issue_057_jp2/Retro_Gamer_Issue_057_0029.jp2&scale=4&rotate=0

https://ia800704.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/8/items/RetroGamerIssue056-060/Retro_Gamer_Issue_057_jp2.zip&file=Retro_Gamer_Issue_057_jp2/Retro_Gamer_Issue_057_0030.jp2&scale=4&rotate=0

Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 06, 2020, 09:52:59 PM
I actually ran it on my smartphone last year. A little buggy and harder to manage without a controller, but still fun.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 06, 2020, 10:00:20 PM
Some new stuff regarding LYNX's AvP.

http://zenade.angelfire.com/AVP/lynx/avp.html

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/295782-avp-alien-hack-comlynx/
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 07, 2020, 09:06:56 AM
Quote from: molasar on Jan 06, 2020, 08:40:10 PM
In an article "The Making Of: Alien Vs Predator" from Retro Gamer. No. 57 he has mentioned it as well.

Ha, I actually brought that yesterday and now it's here for free!  :laugh:

Quote from: molasar on Jan 06, 2020, 08:40:10 PM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 06, 2020, 06:38:53 PM
AVP Jaguar worth playing, and if so, can I emulate it?

Yes, you can. One of a better emulators is a Russian one called Phoenix. AvP seems to be emulated almost in 100% on it with only one glitch I have noticed. Wrongly displaying a texture for one type of door, but it is not a big issue.


Thanks, gonna check that one out! I remember it being janky when I tried to play on an emulator in the past.


I don't suppose there is anyway to change the language is there?
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 07, 2020, 11:33:50 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 07, 2020, 09:06:56 AM
Thanks, gonna check that one out! I remember it being janky when I tried to play on an emulator in the past.


I don't suppose there is anyway to change the language is there?

It still requires a lot of processing power.

There is an English patch for it in a form of replacement file. However not all text is translated.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 07, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
I've downloaded the Virtual Jaguar as well. Any opinions on that emulator?

Do you have a link to the English patch for Phoenix?
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 07, 2020, 11:46:33 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 07, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
I've downloaded the Virtual Jaguar as well. Any opinions on that emulator?

Do you have a link to the English patch for Phoenix?

Virtual Jaguar - less power consuming; generally less compatible in comparison to Phoenix; AvP glitches: HUD map, Pred HUD sound detector but the door texture is OK

English patch:

https://www.ngemu.com/threads/phoenix-project-3do-emulator-translated-into-english.191753/

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=1157067

https://www.emutopia.com/index.php/emulators/item/273-atari-jaguar/1249-phoenix
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: AVP-CAPCOM on Jan 07, 2020, 12:02:49 PM
I remember this game on launch.

Unfortunately the game system wasn't 64-bit as advertised, but not like anyone cared since we were still buzzing our Sega Mega Drives and Snes consoles with Street Fighter 2.

I wrote off the Jaguar like the 3DO and Sega CD before it. The angry video game nerd also took apart the "do the math" campaign and tech spec of what was really under the hood.

James Hampton got the ball rolling on future installments of AVP so fair play to him. But isn't it weird how even he admitted the graphical techniques of digitised photos made to look 3D were based on Amiga and 16-bit digitised 2d sprites, to give the illusion of 3d.

I see no bad intentions from Mr Hampton or his team and their game sounds good, although I got spoiled by said AVP 1999 and AVP2. From 1994 I think I would still prefer AVP-CAPCOM arcade if I had to choose.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 07, 2020, 12:33:37 PM
Quote from: molasar on Jan 07, 2020, 11:46:33 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 07, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
I've downloaded the Virtual Jaguar as well. Any opinions on that emulator?

Do you have a link to the English patch for Phoenix?

Virtual Jaguar - less power consuming; generally less compatible in comparison to Phoenix; AvP glitches: HUD map, Pred HUD sound detector but the door texture is OK

English patch:

https://www.ngemu.com/threads/phoenix-project-3do-emulator-translated-into-english.191753/

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=1157067

https://www.emutopia.com/index.php/emulators/item/273-atari-jaguar/1249-phoenix

Thanks I got Phoenix up and running!
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 07, 2020, 01:52:18 PM
I think I paid something like $4.99 for the irata jaguar emulator app, but it was worth it to get Jaguar's AvP on my Galaxy phone.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 07, 2020, 01:59:04 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 07, 2020, 01:52:18 PM
I think I paid something like $4.99 for the irata jaguar emulator app, but it was worth it to get Jaguar's AvP on my Galaxy phone.

Who charged you for it? It is for free and made by Phoenix guys. They just split it into a separate app for each system.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 07, 2020, 02:13:43 PM
Quote from: molasar on Jan 07, 2020, 01:59:04 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 07, 2020, 01:52:18 PM
I think I paid something like $4.99 for the irata jaguar emulator app, but it was worth it to get Jaguar's AvP on my Galaxy phone.

Who charged you for it? It is for free and made by Phoenix guys. They just split it into a separate app for each system.

I double-checked my 2018 Google Play purchase history and I definitely paid $4.99 for it.  The developer email address was altmer@arts-union.ru

I guess I was screwed? But ultimately I'm fine with it. I got more hours out of replaying AvPJaguar than Alien Blackout, and Blackout was worth the $4.99 to me.  :)
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 07, 2020, 03:03:13 PM
Quote from: AVP-CAPCOM on Jan 07, 2020, 12:02:49 PM
I remember this game on launch.

Unfortunately the game system wasn't 64-bit as advertised, but not like anyone cared since we were still buzzing our Sega Mega Drives and Snes consoles with Street Fighter 2.

I wrote off the Jaguar like the 3DO and Sega CD before it. The angry video game nerd also took apart the "do the math" campaign and tech spec of what was really under the hood.

Killer apps on a weak gaming system are worth more than powerful system without killer apps.

"Do the math" campaign was not bad as it was aiming to use a psychological aspect that more is better. And majority of customers are not tech aficionados. 

It is hard to recognize 'The angry video game nerd' as the authority.

AvP on its own was making Jaguar worth to buy. You just lost a great experience.

Quote from: AVP-CAPCOM on Jan 07, 2020, 12:02:49 PM
James Hampton got the ball rolling on future installments of AVP so fair play to him. But isn't it weird how even he admitted the graphical techniques of digitised photos made to look 3D were based on Amiga and 16-bit digitised 2d sprites, to give the illusion of 3d.

It is not actually an illusion. It looks 3D because it is a photo of real 3D object or person (figurines of Aliens and Pred, or a person in a Marine outfit, Mortal Kombat game actors, Primal Rage clay characters) so all colors and shadows are correct, or a snapshot of software 3D rendered object (AvP main menu artwork and intro scenes, Donkey Kong Country elements, Killer Instinct elements) in different poses. They are just not real time 3D rendered in those games but a compilation of displayed 2D sprites put together into animation or just a texture on 3D wire frame. If they were able to  use animation frames without any limit then it would be hard to distinguish if the game is real time 3D rendered or not without knowing how it is done.

Quote from: AVP-CAPCOM on Jan 07, 2020, 12:02:49 PM
I see no bad intentions from Mr Hampton or his team and their game sounds good, although I got spoiled by said AVP 1999 and AVP2. From 1994 I think I would still prefer AVP-CAPCOM arcade if I had to choose.

Jaguar's AvP, AvP 1999 and AvP2 - each offers a completely different experience IMO.
It is weird to put Jaguar's AvP and Capcom's AvP into the same genre but if I had to choose, it would be Killer Instinct Arcade as it was the most impressive game from 1994 and it has Fulgore who is just a mix of Predator, T-800 and Robocop.



Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 07, 2020, 02:13:43 PM
I double-checked my 2018 Google Play purchase history and I definitely paid $4.99 for it.  The developer email address was altmer@arts-union.ru

I guess I was screwed? But ultimately I'm fine with it. I got more hours out of replaying AvPJaguar than Alien Blackout, and Blackout was worth the $4.99 to me.  :)

It seems you are OK as the email address belongs to original developers. I was just thinking that somebody exploited their work. At least you financially supported them and the project.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: The Old One on Jan 07, 2020, 11:05:29 PM
Yeah, that's good.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 07, 2020, 11:47:18 PM
I remember going crazy when this came out. I read about it and saw screenshots in gaming magazines, but my parents wouldn't buy us a Jaguar. We didn't have a lot of money and they were all about Nintendo anyway. I spent a lot of time combing over that preview article I had. Ultimately my imagination had made the game into something more that it could ever be, when I played the ROM a few years ago it could only be a huge disappointment to the kid in me lol.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 08, 2020, 01:43:33 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 07, 2020, 11:47:18 PM
I remember going crazy when this came out. I read about it and saw screenshots in gaming magazines, but my parents wouldn't buy us a Jaguar. We didn't have a lot of money and they were all about Nintendo anyway. I spent a lot of time combing over that preview article I had. Ultimately my imagination had made the game into something more that it could ever be, when I played the ROM a few years ago it could only be a huge disappointment to the kid in me lol.

Why could it only be a huge disappointment  to the kid in you in 1994? Did you play better first person perspective games on SNES?

Generally those who played the game the first time after many years its release, emulated or even on original system, do not have a right perspective to rate it correctly as gaming standards have changed drastically since then. It pertains to every other game as well. Some people, who were not even born back then can ask what is so special about it. The answer is simple. You had to live at that time and be familiar with available games.
In 1994 the most impressive game from graphical, gameplay, sound and music point of view was Killer Instinct Arcade. It was like watching Terminator 2 film in 1991. However if you do a comparison of it with Killer Instinct from 2013 then you might say it is a disappointment too. But let me tell you that no other fighting game has brought the same or better impression to gamers after it .
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 08, 2020, 02:19:13 AM
Disappointing because all that time spent imagining how amazing the game was built my expectations up to unrealistic levels. Playing as an adult also meant that the graphics look super dated even to someone who grew up in the late 80s, 90s. Also playing a ROM is never as enjoyable as playing on the original platform.

Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 08, 2020, 02:30:31 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 08, 2020, 02:19:13 AM
Disappointing because all that time spent imagining how amazing the game was built my expectations up to unrealistic levels. Playing as an adult also meant that the graphics look super dated even to someone who grew up in the late 80s, 90s. Also playing a ROM is never as enjoyable as playing on the original platform.

That is why video games should be experienced when they are released sadly.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 08, 2020, 08:13:05 AM
Have you finished the Jag version, molasar?
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: SiL on Jan 08, 2020, 08:37:32 AM
How's the Phoenix version with the graphics? The last emulator I tried to play was almost unplayable without cheats -- ammo counters, key cards, vision modes, etc. never displayed properly, and all of the sprites had masking problems.

If I could play a version of this that didn't look more ass than necessary I would be sooooo happy.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 08, 2020, 08:42:11 AM
I played through a good chunk of Sub-Level 3 (couldn't find the Level 2 access card) and the only issue I had was the one door graphic that molasar had already pointed out.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 08, 2020, 02:11:22 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 08, 2020, 08:13:05 AM
Have you finished the Jag version, molasar?

Yes, I did it multiple times in 1995. I have finished Wolfenstein 3D and Doom on Jaguar as well.

Quote from: SiL on Jan 08, 2020, 08:37:32 AM
How's the Phoenix version with the graphics? The last emulator I tried to play was almost unplayable without cheats -- ammo counters, key cards, vision modes, etc. never displayed properly, and all of the sprites had masking problems.

If I could play a version of this that didn't look more ass than necessary I would be sooooo happy.

For accuracy and practicality Phoenix is the best IMO. The only issue I have noticed is that it does not display a texture of one door correctly. This particular one in the images.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.retrounlim.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F07%2Falien-vs-predator-gameplay-on-the-atari-jaguar-youtube-thumbnail.jpg&hash=99663b19d7cc7c35e50fc840cc8c9ff013c308b0)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR7F0l2h5stTr8p6sPXTVUQ6CwzIVCPSlZb3SSR-C8829NIKnO8&s)
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 08, 2020, 02:14:34 PM
Do the ROMs differ in quality, or is it all on the emulator?
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2020, 02:15:42 PM
Molasar, did you just...

did you just change your avatar to...

:laugh:

(https://i.imgur.com/9CSWeNf.gif)

#LongLiveMoleStar
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 08, 2020, 02:20:48 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 08, 2020, 02:14:34 PM
Do the ROMs differ in quality, or is it all on the emulator?

It is all on the emulator.
There is only one ROM of full version (there were no revision of it released) available besides a BETA one(s). If you check the ROM you have on Virtual Jaguar emulator then you can see that the door is displayed correctly.


Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2020, 02:15:42 PM
did you just change your avatar to...

Yep.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Trioxin on Jan 08, 2020, 02:36:22 PM
This was my dad's screensaver when laptops were built like a gd cinder block .
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 08, 2020, 03:12:50 PM
Quote from: molasar on Jan 08, 2020, 02:11:22 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 08, 2020, 08:13:05 AM
Have you finished the Jag version, molasar?

Yes, I did it multiple times in 1995. I have finished Wolfenstein 3D and Doom on it as well.

I tip my hat to you, sir. It's a whole other experience playing older games. I know full well they're a lot harder, but it never surprises me.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: SiL on Jan 08, 2020, 03:37:25 PM
Quote from: molasar on Jan 08, 2020, 02:11:22 PM
For accuracy and practicality Phoenix is the best IMO. The only issue I have noticed is that it does not display a texture of one door correctly. This particular one in the images.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.retrounlim.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F07%2Falien-vs-predator-gameplay-on-the-atari-jaguar-youtube-thumbnail.jpg&hash=99663b19d7cc7c35e50fc840cc8c9ff013c308b0)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR7F0l2h5stTr8p6sPXTVUQ6CwzIVCPSlZb3SSR-C8829NIKnO8&s)
Wonderful, thank you! And the Alien is substantially cleaner, I see.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 08, 2020, 03:42:54 PM
I'm struggling to find the Lt's body at the minute. Always seem to end up on sub-level 2 when I'm exploring the vents and just get overwhelmed.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2020, 04:04:27 PM
Early on, if I remember correctly, there is a hallway somewhere that triggers a Predator noise that always froze me in its tracks. The Predator never comes out, but I always found it so creepy. 
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 08, 2020, 04:11:35 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2020, 04:04:27 PM
Early on, if I remember correctly, there is a hallway somewhere that triggers a Predator noise that always froze me in its tracks. The Predator never comes out, but I always found it so creepy.

Yeah, that happened to me outside the Command Centre on Sub-Level 2. I was like...   :o
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 08, 2020, 04:15:29 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2020, 04:04:27 PM
Early on, if I remember correctly, there is a hallway somewhere that triggers a Predator noise that always froze me in its tracks. The Predator never comes out, but I always found it so creepy. 
Spoiler
It (clicking, voice mimicry) happens every time if you cross Predator's perimeter even if it is behind walls with an exception in one situation only, but I do not want to spoil it.
[close]
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 08, 2020, 04:17:05 PM
There seems to be some level of randomness to the game. Are there differing spawn points for the Alien? It's not always the same appearances.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 08, 2020, 04:24:42 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 08, 2020, 04:17:05 PM
There seems to be some level of randomness to the game. Are there differing spawn points for the Alien? It's not always the same appearances.
Yes, there is a random spawning procedure for enemies, med kits, ammo, food in the game.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 08, 2020, 04:27:56 PM
Honestly wasn't expecting that for a game of this age.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2020, 04:38:17 PM
Adventure from 1980 had a randomizer mode. The dragons, keys, magic sword, all of it was never in the same place, creating huge replay value. It had the first Easter egg too!

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atarimania.com%2F2600%2Fboxes%2Fhi_res%2Fadventure_color_pal_cart_2.jpg&hash=0b97f16f77613852dde63938694cc99607548fff)
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 08, 2020, 04:41:55 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 08, 2020, 04:27:56 PM
Honestly wasn't expecting that for a game of this age.

This is what I like about this game. Simple solutions put together but work great. I have wished after playing it that we would get more games like this one in the future but it was usually something more linear.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: The Old One on Jan 09, 2020, 09:30:44 AM
Creativity without much resources often creates great solutions.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 10, 2020, 08:19:08 AM
Is there any logic to the vent layouts?
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: The Old One on Jan 10, 2020, 08:32:52 AM
Is there ever?  :D
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 10, 2020, 01:17:40 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 10, 2020, 08:19:08 AM
Is there any logic to the vent layouts?

No, they are just made the way to make you feel lost and not all of them are interconnected with each other, but I recommend not using any internet/magazine guides if you enjoy it.

Have you got a motion tracker and pulse rifle (the latter available at more than one place)?

What is your opinion about the game so far?
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 10, 2020, 01:58:05 PM
I'm enjoying it for what it is. Finding it a little on the tougher side like I do older games. Do I need to venture to the other levels to get what I need before doing everything on sub-level 4?

No motion tracker or pulse rifle yet though.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 10, 2020, 02:17:29 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 10, 2020, 01:58:05 PM
I'm enjoying it for what it is. Finding it a little on the tougher side like I do older games. Do I need to venture to the other levels to get what I need before doing everything on sub-level 4?

No motion tracker or pulse rifle yet though.

My approach to it was always to get the rifle and tracker first then following clues from terminal logs and finding higher access cards. One advantage with Phoenix is that you can make freeze save states so there are less worries like with a native save option in the game which randomly respawns enemies and supplies with some exceptions. I remember having levels layout so memorized that I could finish the Marine campaign in one go without saving states.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 10, 2020, 02:19:24 PM
Are the vent layouts always the same too?
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 10, 2020, 02:46:53 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 10, 2020, 02:19:24 PM
Are the vent layouts always the same too?

Yes, all base levels, ships and airducts layouts are always the same.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: The Old One on Jan 10, 2020, 05:16:57 PM
To be expected with the size of the file.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 10, 2020, 07:53:58 PM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 10, 2020, 05:16:57 PM
To be expected with the size of the file.

The size was not an issue, they had levels layouts generated procedurally at some point in development but it did not work for setting up electronically locked doors, computer terminals, key items to collect etc. and levels were not distinctive enough. If you look at layouts drawings, each map is in a proper shape e.g. a Predator ship layout outline looks like the ship.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: The Old One on Jan 11, 2020, 05:54:19 AM
Okay, I understand.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Trioxin on Jan 12, 2020, 05:43:34 PM
I had a Jaguar and a ton of games when I was younger my old man gave them to me. This game among them many time I tried to play. was too hard for me back then I was always playing blue lightning and pitfall.
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 13, 2020, 04:18:10 PM
Am I being thick here? I went into the elevator outside the brig and managed to get to Sub-Level 1 but I can't seem to get it to go back up  ???
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 13, 2020, 04:37:48 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 13, 2020, 04:18:10 PM
Am I being thick here? I went into the elevator outside the brig and managed to get to Sub-Level 1 but I can't seem to get it to go back up  ???

Are you sure you are in the right one? There are two. One can move across all levels and the other one between L1-3 only (another one operates between L4-5 only in the same vertical shaft). The top floor of the base is Sub-Level 1 and the bottom one is S-L 5. Just press 'down' and 'interaction' buttons at the same time inside the elevator to go down.

Also read a game manual.

https://atariage.com/manual_thumbs.php?SoftwareID=2538

(https://atariage.com/Jaguar/manuals/AlienVsPredator/m_AlienVsPredator_13.jpg)

(https://atariage.com/Jaguar/manuals/AlienVsPredator/m_AlienVsPredator_16.jpg)
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 13, 2020, 04:40:02 PM
It's been a while but if I remember correctly, not all elevators work on all levels.

* The great MoleStar beat me to it!
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: molasar on Jan 13, 2020, 06:12:26 PM
Here is something I saw already a long time ago but I do not remember if these were shared before on the forum.

A couple of scans from Die Hard Game Fan Magazine showing unused intro/ending images.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FV8fGPzA.jpg%3F2&hash=95921d7c86275aac67beaa08979f6fcbca03f224)

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fwu4SJye.jpg%3F2&hash=899b3ff12c966045156cff3f745f40fb5e0ce723)
Title: Re: Jaguar CGI images
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 14, 2020, 08:09:56 AM
Quote from: molasar on Jan 13, 2020, 04:37:48 PM
Also read a game manual.

lol  :laugh: I completely even forgot this was a thing. I'll read the manual and stop asking stupid questions. Thanks for sharing the magazine article btw!


I've re-titled the thread as a catch all for the Jag version.


Quote from: molasar on Jan 13, 2020, 06:12:26 PM
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fwu4SJye.jpg%3F2&hash=899b3ff12c966045156cff3f745f40fb5e0ce723)

Motion tracker on the Lynx is interesting. It's interesting that that concept has excited that far back, but still no-one has pulled it off. IIRC they were on about doing that for ACM on the Wii U.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Jan 14, 2020, 03:14:04 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 14, 2020, 08:09:56 AM
Motion tracker on the Lynx is interesting. It's interesting that that concept has excited that far back, but still no-one has pulled it off. IIRC they were on about doing that for ACM on the Wii U.

Yes, a screen of the controller for this and as a hacking device.



Something similar was used in Metal Gear Solid V games in a way that you could use your iOS or Android devices as a live tactical map. I have tried it but personally I preferred using an in-game map.



Probably the motion tracker feature would be the most practical in an Alien VR game.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 15, 2020, 08:17:02 AM
Yeah, I think practically it'd be way better within a VR environment. But it's still a novelty idea I'm surprised just hasn't been tried in the real world yet.

Getting the hang of playing this now. It does wonders reading the f**king manual. Managed to actually find the 2nd security card, and am now investigating Sub-Level 2. Need the 4th card to get into the armories though.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 19, 2020, 02:07:11 PM
I have the first three cards and pulse rifle finally. This game is really difficult lol, but it is a bit easier after getting the pulse rifle.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 20, 2020, 08:49:00 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 19, 2020, 02:07:11 PM
I have the first three cards and pulse rifle finally. This game is really difficult lol, but it is a bit easier after getting the pulse rifle.

I tend to find older games pretty hard myself. I'm currently just wandering around the Training Maze, looking for the 4th card. Feel like I've searched everywhere apart from the vents.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 20, 2020, 12:18:33 PM
I just got the 4th card in the training maze myself. Took forever to find the guy but he's in there.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 20, 2020, 12:19:18 PM
Not in the vents?
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 20, 2020, 12:21:56 PM
nope not in the vents, he was in a room in the middle of the training maze somewhere.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 20, 2020, 02:02:33 PM
Rightio, thanks. I'll keep looking. lol
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 20, 2020, 02:06:26 PM
Hopefully the keycard placement isn't random too...
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 20, 2020, 02:06:55 PM
I don't think it is. At least the first one is always in the same place.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Jan 20, 2020, 03:38:39 PM
I do not remember that much, but I believe some low level cards are available at more than one place and you do not need to collect all of them in numeric order as they work by level clearance access i.e. once you get a level 10 card, you cannot pick up any lower level one for example.

BTW, if you use a Phoenix emulator freeze save state, be careful with it and always close it by its proper exit option as it uses one file for saves in real time. So it can become corrupted.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 20, 2020, 04:52:03 PM
I think all the key cards are always in the same place, atleast 1-4 are.

Not sure where Im headed next but I return to sub level 3 for health and ammo on occasion.



Found the motion tracker, its a big help actually lol.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Jan 22, 2020, 02:20:25 AM
I am not sure if this very short E3'97 camera footage from a cancelled PS1 port of AvP was shared on the forum before but here it is.

https://youtu.be/W1iDYImB2Zw?t=7528
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 22, 2020, 09:32:31 AM
Was that a port of the Jag version, or the Rebellion PC?
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Jan 22, 2020, 03:07:10 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 22, 2020, 09:32:31 AM
Was that a port of the Jag version, or the Rebellion PC?

It was supposed to be a new game based on Jag version with all unused ideas included. And the whole project ended up as AvP 1999 on PC.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 22, 2020, 04:50:34 PM
Having put a few hours into AvPJag I am really digging the slower survival horror type pace.

Its a huge contrast to AvP99, which is fast and all action.

Ive really kinda been hooked now, I have a whole new appreciation for this game after giving it a chance.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Jan 22, 2020, 11:45:27 PM
Here is a video clip showing a compilation of screenshots from an article about cancelled version of AvP from 1997. It seems they wanted to use the same method of creating characters like in Jag version (digitized: human actors and figurines of Aliens and Predators).



Scans of the article (in Spanish)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/p0q5qkclxhcsy23/avpshots.zip/file
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 23, 2020, 04:59:08 PM
I found the 6th key card, never got the 5th. But now I cant get back to a safe/savable area without dying lol.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Jan 23, 2020, 09:34:03 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 23, 2020, 04:59:08 PM
I found the 6th key card, never got the 5th. But now I cant get back to a safe/savable area without dying lol.

So you use a native save system instead of emulator one? This is good; no cheating.

Would you like to see more Alien/Predator games made like this one but with all modern bells and whistles?
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jan 23, 2020, 09:40:05 PM
I've been using save states in the Emulator. The saves I make in the game disappear once I exit the game.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 23, 2020, 11:19:25 PM
Yesh ive been using the in game saves, seems to work good.

Just can't seem escape the medlab on sub level 4 with the the 6th key.

I have a save from before I went for the card but I dont want to start again that far back. just hoping one of these attempts I can make it back out of the medlab/vents alive.


Quote from: molasar on Jan 23, 2020, 09:34:03 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 23, 2020, 04:59:08 PM
I found the 6th key card, never got the 5th. But now I cant get back to a safe/savable area without dying lol.

So you use a native save system instead of emulator one? This is good; no cheating.

Would you like to see more Alien/Predator games made like this one but with all modern bells and whistles?

would love to see this game remade with current tech.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Jan 24, 2020, 12:36:12 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 23, 2020, 09:40:05 PM
I've been using save states in the Emulator. The saves I make in the game disappear once I exit the game.

You are right. I have checked as well. However after your death (without exiting the game) in the game saves work. Therefore a real hardware emulation can be recreated with a combination of the emulator saves.

Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 23, 2020, 11:19:25 PM
Yesh ive been using the in game saves, seems to work good.

Is it with a combination of the emulator saves i.e. you start the emulator and game, then load the emulator save, then play with using in the game saves and save with the emulator saves before closing it?


Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 23, 2020, 11:19:25 PM
would love to see this game remade with current tech.

Somehow I feel that I would enjoy the 1997 cancelled version more than the released 1999 one.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 24, 2020, 01:30:01 AM
Im not going to lie, when it comes to emulators I don't know what i'm doing, I actually had to get help to get it working. i click the save state to start and when I am done the next time I die I exit the program. when I start it back up I click the save state which starts where I left off at the high score screen and I load my last ingame save
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Jan 24, 2020, 03:17:51 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 24, 2020, 01:30:01 AM
Im not going to lie, when it comes to emulators I don't know what i'm doing, I actually had to get help to get it working. i click the save state to start and when I am done the next time I die I exit the program. when I start it back up I click the save state which starts where I left off at the high score screen and I load my last ingame save

This is what I thought. Once you start using the emulator, it creates a save state itself before you exit the program because its automatic save option is turn on from the get-go. Then the next time you load the last emulator automatic save state created for the game instead of loading the game itself. Therefore you can load the in game save.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 26, 2020, 02:14:04 AM
After many many many deaths I finally retrieved the security 6 and made it back to a safe area and reloaded my heath and ammo. It was a brutal experience.

Then I took a trip to up a few levels and by chance found security card 7, with ease too lol :laugh:

- edit- I went and checked out the predator ship and walked away with a smart gun and security card 9. Never found 8 though. Not sure what to do next but im guessing the queen in sublvl 5 has the last card.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: The Old One on Feb 02, 2020, 02:31:22 AM
Attempting to get this running.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: 426Buddy on Feb 02, 2020, 06:40:56 PM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Feb 02, 2020, 02:31:22 AM
Attempting to get this running.
Dont give up!

Im ready to fight the queen, all ammo filled and on lvl5. Ive made a couple unsuccesful runs already, havent even made it to the alien ship yet.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Feb 02, 2020, 09:27:03 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 02, 2020, 06:40:56 PM
Im ready to fight the queen, all ammo filled and on lvl5. Ive made a couple unsuccesful runs already, havent even made it to the alien ship yet.

Have you explored the Predator ship? If yes, any surprises there?
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: 426Buddy on Feb 03, 2020, 12:51:37 AM
yeah like an ambush at the smart gun lol. i just ran for my life. killed 1 of the 3, thankfully I had smartgun ammo when I picked it up.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Feb 03, 2020, 01:54:34 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 03, 2020, 12:51:37 AM
yeah like an ambush at the smart gun lol. i just ran for my life. killed 1 of the 3, thankfully I had smartgun ammo when I picked it up.

You just rocked and rolled out of there.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Feb 09, 2020, 12:38:27 AM
If anybody wants to check these alpha/beta roms, they are available in the following links. A hint: use other emulators like Project Tempest or Virtual Jaguar as well.

https://hiddenpalace.org/Alien_vs_Predator_(Aug_18,_1993_prototype)

https://hiddenpalace.org/Alien_vs_Predator_(Oct_13,_1993_prototype)

https://hiddenpalace.org/Alien_vs_Predator_(Apr_8,_1994_prototype)

Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Feb 10, 2020, 11:39:44 AM
Any major differences?
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Feb 10, 2020, 05:53:57 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 10, 2020, 11:39:44 AM
Any major differences?

Some different assets (layouts, sprites, weapons, HUD, etc.) like seen in early screenshots from VG magazines. Just feel more like something from a testing phase than a bugged almost completed version. I could only play them as Marine.

Anyway I remember back in the 90s I was not completely happy that Alien looks like a blue version of dog alien instead of warrior alien but definitely it was a smart choice from a functionality point of view. As it is hard to show small details properly in low resolution and not contrasting colors.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: SiL on Feb 11, 2020, 05:35:52 AM
Alien Trilogy did not learn that lesson with their Alien models. Such disappointing blobs of colour.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Feb 11, 2020, 10:08:16 AM
Quote from: SiL on Feb 11, 2020, 05:35:52 AM
Alien Trilogy did not learn that lesson with their Alien models. Such disappointing blobs of colour.

I still like it but back then I did not know a lot about video game designing. However nowadays, it seems that majority of people think if games are more realistic or cinematic, it is better.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: SiL on Feb 13, 2020, 08:50:28 AM
Even back in the day they were disappointing. Nothing to do with modern sensibilities, realism, or cinema -- they just didn't have any real detail. Although I should clarify, I really mean the Warriors specifically. The smaller forms were good, and the Queen is fine, but the black/grey Warriors have been underwhelming since '96.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: lost dragon on Mar 09, 2020, 12:33:19 PM
Quote from: molasar on Jan 22, 2020, 02:20:25 AM
I am not sure if this very short E3'97 camera footage from a cancelled PS1 port of AvP was shared on the forum before but here it is.

https://youtu.be/W1iDYImB2Zw?t=7528

That's amazing.

Huge thanks for sharing, all i previously had was a screenshot.

Wonder if any footage of the Sega Saturn version exists?


Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 14, 2020, 08:09:56 AM
Quote from: molasar on Jan 13, 2020, 04:37:48 PM
Also read a game manual.

lol  :laugh: I completely even forgot this was a thing. I'll read the manual and stop asking stupid questions. Thanks for sharing the magazine article btw!


I've re-titled the thread as a catch all for the Jag version.


Quote from: molasar on Jan 13, 2020, 06:12:26 PM
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fwu4SJye.jpg%3F2&hash=899b3ff12c966045156cff3f745f40fb5e0ce723)

Motion tracker on the Lynx is interesting. It's interesting that that concept has excited that far back, but still no-one has pulled it off. IIRC they were on about doing that for ACM on the Wii U.


Regarding the potential of using the Atari Lynx as a motion tracker on Jaguar AVP:

I am lead to believe Hand Made Software said the concept of using the lynx as an intelligent game controller on Jaguar games was simply far too flawed to actually work in real life?

Great concept with lynx being used as a display device, Jaguar handling the code, but ..

The Jaguar serial port never worked as it should have and in the majority of games, it was the processing of the display which took the most time, so a game would be limited by the restraints put on it by the Lynx and not the Jaguar
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Mar 09, 2020, 01:53:07 PM
Quote from: lost dragon on Mar 09, 2020, 12:33:19 PM
Wonder if any footage of the Sega Saturn version exists?

I do not think it does.

I believe that PS1 was a based hardware for the game at that time and they did not start any works on Saturn and PC ports at all. Then for whatever reason, they abandoned a console version and completely moved to PC starting from the beginning.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: Russ840 on Apr 04, 2020, 09:26:54 AM
Would some mind giving me instructions for Phoenix and the English patch? Please

I have been playing on PT but i get annoyed with bugs and dodgy outlines on the sprites.

I'm about 3/4 through which is annoying because I will have to start again.

Does Phoenix have Controller support?
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: HicksIsAlive on May 10, 2020, 10:42:29 PM
I think I heard that the English patch is available if you sign up to their forum?
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: OpenMaw on May 12, 2020, 06:29:56 PM
I got a question. What models would the Rebellion guys have been using for the Alien and Predator Circa 1993/1994? It says they bought them at a store. They appear to be poseable models, too... Unless they made those drastic changes themselves.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: HicksIsAlive on May 12, 2020, 06:57:03 PM
Not sure about the models they would've used. I haven't seen anything of that scale really from that era. There's a great video on YouTube where the game's producer James Hampton gives a pretty good account of the process of making the game. It includes a segment about how they had to repeatedly buy and ship models of the Queen because UK customs would  frequently seize her under pornography legislation! She almost didn't make it into the game for this reason. He eventually "smuggled" it in via a local model shop in the US and posted it himself. There are several pictures of this model in the video but I can't make out the brand name on the box.

Link below

Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: OpenMaw on May 13, 2020, 01:52:32 AM
Looks like the queen is a Halcyon 1/12 scale model kit in the "Movie Classics" line. Interesting.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: HicksIsAlive on May 13, 2020, 01:16:00 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on May 13, 2020, 01:52:32 AM
Looks like the queen is a Halcyon 1/12 scale model kit in the "Movie Classics" line. Interesting.
Looked it up online and you're definitely right.

I checked out eBay listings for the normal alien from Halcyon to check and it doesn't look like they used the Alien Warrior mold as it has the ridged head and is upright but their Alien 3 mold is a dead ringer! Looks like we have our winner!
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: OpenMaw on May 14, 2020, 07:36:12 AM
The early beta versions of AVP on Jaguar use a distinctly different sprite, i'm betting it's the Halcyon Big Chap.



https://www.ebay.com/itm/Halcyon-Alien-Big-Chap-Kit-de-modelo-de-vinil-xenomorfo-/124030498879?_ul=BR&nma=true&si=a%252FPs0S5CR8YrqVoUI0l6i%252BiOMQ0%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

http://youtu.be/0MTh2ZbTtdA?t=114


Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: SiL on May 14, 2020, 08:42:55 AM
I always wondered why they changed it.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: OpenMaw on May 14, 2020, 05:45:14 PM
Just going by the sprites as they appear. The replacement is a more contrasted color with the backgrounds of the base, it's a little more refined, and I think the scale is a little better. The Big Chap sprites make em look twice as big as a Predator in certain situations, also it seems a little more jagged and the monochrome color blends into some of the base walls a little more.



As to the model mystery that still leaves the Predator. The Halcyon Predator 2 kit does not have a mask. Though they could still have used it as a base, I guess.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: lost dragon on Apr 10, 2021, 09:40:56 AM
Only just noticed this, but looking back at some of the text on the computer terminals, I start to question just how much actual research they did, as some of this is way off:



Sublevel 2
==========

2.1) Terminal Location: Med-Lab

- Medical Log/Chief Medical Officers Log, 5 Pages

Upon Entering the alien vessel, Private Barker was attacked by a parasite
which attached itself to his face. Subject failed to survive attempted
removal. Chief Surgeon Whittaker accepts full responsibility.

Personal log - Chief Medical Officer Whittaker reporting. It has been
less than 4 hours since my last entry and several more crew members
have been attacked by these yellow spider like parasites. When left
alone, they soon fell off and died.

Personal log - Chief Medical Officer Whittaker reporting. Apparently
these parasites carry an egg of some kind, which they leave in their
host. Soon after they die our infected crew exhibit grand-mal seizures.
Then they suffer a terrible horrifying fate




The Face Hugger isn't an egg carrier, it deposits a Xenomorph embryo in the Esophagus, ok minor gaffe, but...


The log goes onto say:





A creature about 2 metres in length, snakelike and powerful explodes
from the host's chest in a shower of blood and bone. These creatures
are growing quickly and taking more of the crew into their vessel.



Chestbursters are small, generally thought to be  not more than a foot tall and around two feet long including their tails


2 metres has them at  6 Feet, 6.74 inches, that's bigger than the average human host..


I also find it strange the less than realiable source, Jane Whittaker is claiming they ran out of space on even the 4 Meg cartridge, to include things like wall climbing Aliens (the game has walls at right angles, wouldn't they need to be of varying angles for this to be implemented?), net gun for the Predator, more animation frames etc etc


Yet they found room to include those digitised photos of programming team holding up mugshot cards and other unused assets.


Whittaker also claims the team deliberately choose no in-game music, as it would of ruined the atmosphere, they went for the ambient sound fx and background noise instead...


Yet on the Shinto AVP Jaguar podcast, he states there was to be a full orchestral soundtrack, but there wasn't room on the cart.


I did email one of the sound team, but never had any reply.

Anyone know which claim is true?
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: SiL on Apr 10, 2021, 12:07:13 PM
Two meters might have been a simple error of someone trying to use metric, as two feet would be more accurate.

The wall climbing thing is weird at there would be no point in it regardless; all the rooms are boxes, as you say, so there's no actual benefit to bring sideways or upside down.

I'd be interested to hear what the answer is with the soundtrack. That sounds more like variations on a theme than lying - they wanted one, found there was no room, and decided to abandon it rather than try to fit it?

Also, developers using valuable resources for easter eggs rather than game content is hardly unique - ACM, released decades later, had a perfectly functioning donut easter egg even when the rest of the game was a buggy mess  :D
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Apr 10, 2021, 05:28:16 PM
Quote from: lost dragon on Apr 10, 2021, 09:40:56 AM
Yet they found room to include those digitised photos of programming team holding up mugshot cards and other unused assets.

They are from one of prototype versions.

Also there is this "test theme" but I do not know if it was extracted from a ROM.

Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: lost dragon on Apr 11, 2021, 09:48:52 AM
Shinto was kind enough to get back to me and once again, AVP producer Purple Hampton gives a more detailed account than Jane Whittaker.


Retro Gamer magazine issue 57, page 30.
"In some instances what may have been a limitation turned into
an identifying feature in the game. So when we found that the
memory limitations weren't going to let us have a movie-like
symphonic score, we opted to go the other direction, and create
an eerie soundscape from the ambient space station noise. The
result added a lot of dramatic tension and captured the spooky
feeling of being alone – until a threatening Predator clicking sound
appeared nearby."


I'm really not sure what Whittaker is playing at, claiming lead coder status, never a Rebellion employee, game more an Atari product than a Rebellion one (Atari gave Rebellion the AVP Development contract), Mike Beaton flying home to UK to finish coding as homesick.


Purple states Mike stayed till the very end in the USA, giving up months of his life..


And now the variations on why no music.


Sadly Whittaker isn't alone, Kingsley Brothers have changed the story of how they became Jaguar developers, so many times, with the 2 different accounts now merging into one, they want to take credit for coming up with the 3 Seperate campaign ideas.


I'm used to a lot of ill feelings from development teams on big titles within the games industry, but AVP on Jaguar has been one of the worst ever to ry and get a true sense of what really went on.


Quote from: molasar on Apr 10, 2021, 05:28:16 PM
Quote from: lost dragon on Apr 10, 2021, 09:40:56 AM
Yet they found room to include those digitised photos of programming team holding up mugshot cards and other unused assets.

They are from one of prototype versions.

Also there is this "test theme" but I do not know if it was extracted from a ROM.



I'm getting very confused what has and hasn't been found on what versions, with code been releases, then apparently no longer available.


Has anyone ever found evidence of this Easter Egg Jane Whittaker has referenced in interviews?


Early accounts had it chasing you, giving up, leaning against a wall and lighting up a cigarette, as it was knackered...

He changed that in his infamous Mastercast TV Interview Part One, to the Predator sitting down on a chair and drinking a pint of Newcastle Brown Ale, but tells Andrew Rosa, show host, code made it into retail version, is unlockable by a key press combo.


Whittaker has fabricated so much regarding Cyberdreams Dark Seed and Working with H. R GIGER, being digitized for main character (that was Mike Dawson), doing Amiga version graphics.. In reality whittaker never worked for Cyberdreams, just briefly play tested the Amiga whilst at Mirage

He's fabricated claims of various games whilst at Graftgold

Fabricated claims of involvement with Mike Singleton..


The Sam Tramiel AVP bonus story changes from account to account..


$20,000 cash?

$40,000 cash?

Keys to Sam's new sports car?

Sam's Daughters new sports car?

During AVP Development?

As a completion bonus?


At this stage this Predator Easter Egg sounds very, very suspect.




Quote from: SiL on Apr 10, 2021, 12:07:13 PM
Two meters might have been a simple error of someone trying to use metric, as two feet would be more accurate.

The wall climbing thing is weird at there would be no point in it regardless; all the rooms are boxes, as you say, so there's no actual benefit to bring sideways or upside down.

I'd be interested to hear what the answer is with the soundtrack. That sounds more like variations on a theme than lying - they wanted one, found there was no room, and decided to abandon it rather than try to fit it?

Also, developers using valuable resources for easter eggs rather than game content is hardly unique - ACM, released decades later, had a perfectly functioning donut easter egg even when the rest of the game was a buggy mess  :D


🤣 I doubt ATARI had the best Q+A Department, they usually used errors as a basis to reject a game and delay payment to the external development teams, so many horror stories out there.

Lynx Wolfenstein was canned by John Romero as the Tramiel family first milestone payment was 3 months late.


I just can't get my head around Whittaker claiming Wall climbing Xenomorphs were dropped due to Cartridge space limitations, my understanding is due to way the game engine is built, box-like rooms as you say, you wouldn't have any benifit, nor would it be technically possible.

The Xenomorph path finding A. I itself had them getting stuck behind objects, when trying to reach you.

A most odd statement for Whittaker to make, as was the claim they weren't ALLOWED to show the Xenomorphs side-on.


The SNES, GB Activision 2D AVP games do just that.

Aliens by Electric Dreams and Activision on the C64 does just that.

Capcom's AVP has them side on..

SNES, MD etc Alien 3 have them side-on..
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Apr 11, 2021, 01:59:16 PM
Quote from: lost dragon on Apr 11, 2021, 09:48:52 AM
Shinto was kind enough to get back to me and once again, AVP producer Purple Hampton gives a more detailed account than Jane Whittaker.


Retro Gamer magazine issue 57, page 30.
"In some instances what may have been a limitation turned into
an identifying feature in the game. So when we found that the
memory limitations weren't going to let us have a movie-like
symphonic score, we opted to go the other direction, and create
an eerie soundscape from the ambient space station noise. The
result added a lot of dramatic tension and captured the spooky
feeling of being alone – until a threatening Predator clicking sound
appeared nearby."


I'm really not sure what Whittaker is playing at, claiming lead coder status, never a Rebellion employee, game more an Atari product than a Rebellion one (Atari gave Rebellion the AVP Development contract), Mike Beaton flying home to UK to finish coding as homesick.


Purple states Mike stayed till the very end in the USA, giving up months of his life..


And now the variations on why no music.


Sadly Whittaker isn't alone, Kingsley Brothers have changed the story of how they became Jaguar developers, so many times, with the 2 different accounts now merging into one, they want to take credit for coming up with the 3 Seperate campaign ideas.


I'm used to a lot of ill feelings from development teams on big titles within the games industry, but AVP on Jaguar has been one of the worst ever to ry and get a true sense of what really went on.


Quote from: molasar on Apr 10, 2021, 05:28:16 PM
Quote from: lost dragon on Apr 10, 2021, 09:40:56 AM
Yet they found room to include those digitised photos of programming team holding up mugshot cards and other unused assets.

They are from one of prototype versions.

Also there is this "test theme" but I do not know if it was extracted from a ROM.



I'm getting very confused what has and hasn't been found on what versions, with code been releases, then apparently no longer available.


Has anyone ever found evidence of this Easter Egg Jane Whittaker has referenced in interviews?


Early accounts had it chasing you, giving up, leaning against a wall and lighting up a cigarette, as it was knackered...

He changed that in his infamous Mastercast TV Interview Part One, to the Predator sitting down on a chair and drinking a pint of Newcastle Brown Ale, but tells Andrew Rosa, show host, code made it into retail version, is unlockable by a key press combo.


Whittaker has fabricated so much regarding Cyberdreams Dark Seed and Working with H. R GIGER, being digitized for main character (that was Mike Dawson), doing Amiga version graphics.. In reality whittaker never worked for Cyberdreams, just briefly play tested the Amiga whilst at Mirage

He's fabricated claims of various games whilst at Graftgold

Fabricated claims of involvement with Mike Singleton..


The Sam Tramiel AVP bonus story changes from account to account..


$20,000 cash?

$40,000 cash?

Keys to Sam's new sports car?

Sam's Daughters new sports car?

During AVP Development?

As a completion bonus?


At this stage this Predator Easter Egg sounds very, very suspect.




Quote from: SiL on Apr 10, 2021, 12:07:13 PM
Two meters might have been a simple error of someone trying to use metric, as two feet would be more accurate.

The wall climbing thing is weird at there would be no point in it regardless; all the rooms are boxes, as you say, so there's no actual benefit to bring sideways or upside down.

I'd be interested to hear what the answer is with the soundtrack. That sounds more like variations on a theme than lying - they wanted one, found there was no room, and decided to abandon it rather than try to fit it?

Also, developers using valuable resources for easter eggs rather than game content is hardly unique - ACM, released decades later, had a perfectly functioning donut easter egg even when the rest of the game was a buggy mess  :D


🤣 I doubt ATARI had the best Q+A Department, they usually used errors as a basis to reject a game and delay payment to the external development teams, so many horror stories out there.

Lynx Wolfenstein was canned by John Romero as the Tramiel family first milestone payment was 3 months late.


I just can't get my head around Whittaker claiming Wall climbing Xenomorphs were dropped due to Cartridge space limitations, my understanding is due to way the game engine is built, box-like rooms as you say, you wouldn't have any benifit, nor would it be technically possible.

The Xenomorph path finding A. I itself had them getting stuck behind objects, when trying to reach you.

A most odd statement for Whittaker to make, as was the claim they weren't ALLOWED to show the Xenomorphs side-on.


The SNES, GB Activision 2D AVP games do just that.

Aliens by Electric Dreams and Activision on the C64 does just that.

Capcom's AVP has them side on..

SNES, MD etc Alien 3 have them side-on..


Whatever info  Shinto has you can find it in this thread as well. But definitely a development of the game was not easy.



Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: lost dragon on Apr 11, 2021, 02:18:26 PM
Found the 'We deliberately didn't add music' quote by Whittaker..

Posted on Twitter 28th Feb.2021 8.44am in reply to @VintageDude3.

Site won't let me post screen grab,but it's there on @whittakergames Tweet history:


Whittaker says:

"We deliberately didn't add music to AVP to create the tension, especially with the motion tracker sounds"


Now come on Jane.

For a start your role was A. I routines and the computer terminal stuff, you weren't part of the AVP sound design team.

You also weren't the games producer.


If your going to talk about aspects of the game design outside your field, have the decency to quote the games Producer, Purple Hampton and his explanation that it was a memory constraints issue, that led the team off into the direction of using sound fx to create atmosphere and tension and there had originally been plans for a full orchestral score.


It's bad play to try and give accounts for work and decisions that weren't your own, especially if your answers are only part of what really happened.

Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Apr 11, 2021, 02:38:24 PM
I think they had a lot of ideas and tested some of them.


Also I would not expect any of game devs to remember everything in details from over 25 years ago. That is why their comments can be inaccurate.

For example I tried to talk about unreleased port of Killer Instinct 2 on SNES (1996) with some of its devs and their memories were foggy.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: SiL on Apr 12, 2021, 10:31:36 AM
Yeah, I feel this isn't so egregious. After 25 years it would be very easy for "We chose to use creepy ambience because we realised we couldn't use music" to turn into "we chose to use creepy ambience".
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: lost dragon on Apr 17, 2021, 10:26:35 AM
I've spoken with a good few coders, artists, musicians and P. R folk from the industry over the years whilst assisting sites like Unseen64 and Games Thst Weren't and you soon learn to appreciate just what a mammoth task it is to try and get people to remember much if anything of events 25-30 years ago.

Most are gracious enough to say, it's been so long ago I honestly don't remember, my memory is hazzy or I simply have no recollection.


Jane Whittaker by comparison in interviews, has spoken of a near photographic memory, then starts making some very questionable claims about working with big name individuals on flagship titles.

That's not helpful when your looking to document a game, nor is Jason Kingsley using interviews and Making Of.. Features to make swipes at old employees..


Nobody doubts Jane worked on Jaguar AVP doing the A. I Routines and other misc tasks, anymore than Mike Beaton wrote the graphics engine...


It's just Jane's attempt to exaggerate the role Jane had, that causes issues when trying to piece events together

Jane and Mike weren't the only coders, Mike Pooler did additional coding, but never gets mentioned...

Jane has told people if they check the games Credits, they will see Andrew Whittaker listed as lead coder, that's false..


The sound team can give better insights than Jane on sound design, the games producer, Purple Hampton already has, thankfully...


So we can get a sense of what factors influenced the game design.


I'm just getting tired of seeing the same few individuals being asked about AVP:

Jane Whittaker

Jason Kingsley

Even Purple Hampton now


We only have the accounts of the above, plus a few from the Late Lance Lewis.


There's obviously been some ill feelings between Rebellion and Atari over the years, egos come into play with people using interviews to over state how, if it weren't for them, the game wouldn't of been what it was, might have been a 2D title, far less depth etc.


GTW taught me to never stop looking into titles, multiple sources are the only means of getting anything like an idea of what really happened.


But with Jag AVP?

Multiple individuals simply now refuse to talk about it, others have sadly passed on and the accounts from Whittaker, Hampton and Kingsley, all conflict each other's at key points.


It's clear there were the classic Tramiel budget issues, which meant staff not being paid, game concepts dropped due to limited cartridge space...


Rebellion wanted to move onto. Other, multi-platform titles, so delivered Atari the basic game engine, but not much of an actual game..

But we need a lot of new voices to give their accounts.



And sadly I just see no sign of that happening.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: BlueMarsalis79 on Apr 17, 2021, 03:18:10 PM
Does anyone think this will ever get ported to modern platforms then?
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: lost dragon on Apr 17, 2021, 03:42:33 PM
Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 17, 2021, 03:18:10 PM
Does anyone think this will ever get ported to modern platforms then?

I think this was the closest it ever came to happening:

https://www.moddb.com/mods/jaguar-alien-vs-predator-doom/


The Jaguar original itself was heavily flawed, something Atari itself recognized at the time, cue the length of improvements pitched for the proposed Jaguar CD Special Edition.


It was blighted by being on a platform that was far too niche to be considered worthy of a commercial remaster for today's market
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: judge death on May 29, 2021, 02:35:46 AM
I guess I need to buy a jaguar to play this game or is it possible to play it on pc somehow?
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: SiL on May 29, 2021, 01:33:48 PM
There is an emulator and a ROM floating around.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: Voodoo Magic on May 29, 2021, 11:03:08 PM
There's even an android mobile emulator out there that will run it.  :)
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: slimulis on May 30, 2021, 05:33:30 PM
Quote from: lost dragon on Apr 17, 2021, 03:42:33 PM
Quote from: Trash Queen on Apr 17, 2021, 03:18:10 PM
Does anyone think this will ever get ported to modern platforms then?

I think this was the closest it ever came to happening:

https://www.moddb.com/mods/jaguar-alien-vs-predator-doom/


The Jaguar original itself was heavily flawed, something Atari itself recognized at the time, cue the length of improvements pitched for the proposed Jaguar CD Special Edition.


It was blighted by being on a platform that was far too niche to be considered worthy of a commercial remaster for today's market

I'm slightly hurt finding this thread and a link to moddb and no mention of my little project haha. I recreated all the levels from AvP jaguar. Still things missing like death, the motion tracker, predators, vent aliens. It all became too time consuming and a slog to work on by myself without ever having the possibility to turn a profit. But it was a nice project to work on to get my feet wet learning UE4 and code.

Needless to say I loved the original and played it a ton as a kid, still have it, but my jaguar is sadly dead.

Anyway, hi, I'm the creator of it, just doing bored and doing the rounds on google searches and came across this thread. Shameless self promotion goooo. :)

https://www.moddb.com/games/shane-ruetz
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: BlueMarsalis79 on Jun 08, 2021, 11:22:44 AM
That's awesome, I'd love to see it finished, some day.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: lost dragon on Jul 12, 2021, 08:49:42 AM
Quote from: SiL on Apr 12, 2021, 10:31:36 AM
Yeah, I feel this isn't so egregious. After 25 years it would be very easy for "We chose to use creepy ambience because we realised we couldn't use music" to turn into "we chose to use creepy ambience".

Jeff Minter of Llamasoft is the latest to pour very cold water on claims Andrew, now Jane Whittaker, gives regarding time on AVP and other claims.


Jane told Andrew Rosa on the Mastercast TV interview part one, that whilst at Sunnyvale, finishing off AVP for Atari (along with Mike Beaton), Jane had 2 legends there as well.


Jeff Minter was to one side, coding Tempest 2000 and there was John Carmack on the other side coding Wolfenstein 3D/Doom (Jane can't seem to remember exactly which).



The claim was put to Jeff, who kindly replied with:


"Hm, well T2K was pretty much all done in Wales, I used to upload builds to the Atari server in Sunnyvale using a pretty slow modem. I only went out to Sunnyvale with T2K for a few weeks of final test, IIRC for about 3 weeks before Xmas of 1993, then home for Xmas, and for a couple of weeks right after Xmas, finishing in Jan '94. Don't think I saw any of AvP at that time (I guess it would have been really early to see any of it anyway in Jan 1994). Don't recall seeing Carmack there either.



I *do* remember DOOM came out while I was in Sunnyvale pre-Xmas, and I couldn't wait to get T2K finished off so I could go back to Wales and do nothing but play DOOM for a month.


IIRC the next time I was in Sunnyvale was in June '94, I'd been supposed to go back there in May to work on VLM, but I got ill with pneumonia and couldn't fly until that had cleared up enough so I was delayed till June.

Bearing in mind Doom was coded by the TEAM at i.d in Texas (John Carmack, John Romero and Dave Taylor etc)...

I would wager Jane has been name dropping for effect there and that's backfired.


As have the claims of being a VP of Atari aged 19/20...


The Ancedote about using Sam Tramiel's personal coffee machine...


Points put to Sam who has publicly stated Andrew/Jane was never a VP of ANY department at Atari...


Sam himself had no coffee machine as he didn't drink coffee...


Jeff was kind enough to clear up another claim Jane made:


"That chap definitely seems to have his own unique views as to what went on back in the day.



I was somewhat surprised when one day on his Twitter he just randomly told the world that one of his mates had been a gameplay advisor to me when I was developing T2K."




https://atariage.com/forums/topic/306326-leonard-tramiel-exclusive-text%C2%A0interview-great-commodore-atari-insight/page/2/




These join the comments made by Steve Turner of Graftgold, regarding Jane taking credit for likes of ST Rainbow Islands (actually done by Andrew Braybrook and team), Ranarama, Morpheus (there were no conversions, it stayed a C64/128 exclusive), Magnetron and Steve detailed wha Jane actually did on Amstrad CPC Flying Shark and why Jane was fired from Graftgold.


Patrick Ketchum and misc Cyberdreams staff, including Mike Dawson.

Jane did not create the graphics for Amiga Dark Seed, was not asked by H. R GIGER to create the game, was not digitized for the main character.

Was never part of Cyberdreams, Jane's only connection to Dark Seed was a few days playtesting of the Amiga version whilst at Mirage.


Various Maelstrom staff  who strongly dispute Jane's Midwinter Origins/Chinese Restaurant claims.

Jane has since changed account to being involved with misc Amiga Flight Sims for MicroProse 🤔




Various Bullfrog staff who confirm Jane never had any involvement with Dungeon Keeper II


Misc Perceptions staff who say Power Crystal on the 3DO M2 was far from complete (Jane claims it was finished and reviewed, scored 100%...)


Misc Maxis staff who've never heard of a Jane/Andrew Whittaker, let alone such an individual doing any A. I work on any of The Sims titles.


Whilst it's far from uncommon for people to get confused trying to account for events over 20 years ago, get misquoted, that sadly isn't the case with Andrew /Jane Whittaker, who is currently using social media to act as the Jaguar AVP Guru..

I firmly believe a community should be given truthful, not fanciful accounts of game development.



Some of Andrew%Jane's past AVP Jaguar claims:


STS : I guess you must be tired with explaining the  same things  again but
please once again, would you be kind enough to tell us how you came to work
for ATARI on AvP ?

ANDREW : Immediately  before AvP I had  worked  on a  project  called Darkseed
which did very well, especially in  the USA. That involved me working alongside
the designer of the "Alien" HR Giger to bring his  work to the computer screen.
When AvP came along, because of  the success of that  I was asked to design and
develop the AvP  experience. Giger  obviously  remembered me as  when the Alien
licence was taken by Atari I was approached by Giger, Atari and  Fox to develop
that licence for the Jaguar launch. It was a great opportunity to develop on an
exciting new  machine with  movies that I  really  loved. I studied  the movies
solid for many months before coming up with a  game design. My  aim was simple,
to recreate the  feeling and  atmosphere of the "Alien" movie. I wanted  people
jumping, feeling claustrophobic and have the fear of being hunted in an unknown
environment.
http://alive.atari.org/alive8/andreww.php

As anyone who's familiar with the games history or read/listened to any interview with likes of Purple Hampton or Jason Kingsley will know, Rebellion were awarded the contract by Atari to develop AVP, Andrew Whittaker joining Rebellion when they expanded the team and tasked with coding the games A. I routines and doing the Computer screens.


Jane's account of being approached by Fox/Giger/Atari is an utter nonsense, Rebellion openly advertised for staff in Edge magazine and that's why Andrew Whittaker doesn't appear in early AVP magazine Previews, only later ones.

Onto a seperate interview:

Pocket : What did you do exactly on Goldeneye ?
AW : A lot of the AI routines from AvP found their way there, and of course I was heavily involved creatively, as my job was to manage exact how James Bond was used in games.

#Complete and utter nonsense as anyone who's read or listened to a Making Of... feature on Goldeneye will be aware.

Rare hired Dr David Doak to handle the A. I Routines, which he wrote from scratch.




Pocket : What did you do on PC ?
AW : I left MGM for Electronic Arts, so got involved in a whole load of titles there, Dungeon Keeper, Theme park, Indestructibles, etc.


#The teams involved in both Dungeon Keeper 1+2 confirmed both titles had shipped before Jane even joined Bullfrog.


Jane in the Retrogamer Magazine Interview claims involvement in Playstation 2 Theme Park World (but isnt listed in the credits)


Jane DID head up the third and final attempt to salvage My Indestructible Super Team/The Indestructibles, but it was a much dumber game than the original and was canned.

Pocket : Did you work on the first PC sequel of AVP too ?
AW : Yes I did, although most of the avp algorithms I put into goldeneye on the N64.


#Producer Dave Stalker confirmed game was built from scratch for the PC, none of the Jaguar code used.

Jane never returned to Rebellion to do any work on PC AVP.




http://mleguludec.free.fr/dossiers/interview/jc_interview_Andrew_Wittaker.htm







This is the account of AVP Jane now gives:

"I was incredibly lucky to have been asked to be the gameplay and AI programmer of Alien Vs Predator for the Atari Jaguar. Working with Mike Beaton, who wrote the groundbreaking 3D engine that changed the first person shooter world, the incredible producer James "Purple" Hampton, Lance Lewis and a host of talented individuals whom I consider to be the best team in the business.

Industry pundits and publications regularly cite my artificial intelligence and gameplay programming for the game as breaking new ground in technology. The game is still cited today as one of the finest movie spin-offs ever made, revered by fans as capturing the essence of the iconic movies.

The game would go on to be one of the bestselling Atari games of all time, spawning a host of sequels and spin-offs. Our game would even go on to feature in the Guinness Book of Records. My involvement as programmer has become a major part of my life, being classed by fans as being part of the "Alien" franchise family, with regular invites to conventions and being featured in publications about the history of the franchise. We never realised at the time, we would be making one of the most iconic games ever made!"





https://www.janewhittaker.com/atari


You'll notice coder Mike Pooler isn't credited for the additional coding he did...

I'd hope he's among the uncredited talented individuals...

The AVP Engine is described as a 3D Engine, it's not, it's of a similar type to Doom/Wolfenstein... A 2.5 D engine, flat planes, no changes in elevation, all corners are at 90 angles.


This is important as Jane has talked of developing a version of AVP with the Xenomorphs scaling the walls, but this being cut due to memory restrictions on the cartridge Atari would allow.

The existing AVP Engine is physically incapable of doing this, plus the games physics engine would of needed to be far more powerful and the A. I codes as they are, crippled the frame rate and the pathfinding A. I is so limited, Aliens get stuck behind objects in the environment.

Atari DID ask for a new game engine for the proposed AVP S. E for the Jaguar CD and for it to include smarter A. I, the ability for the Aliens to run along all surfaces of the base (walks, floors, Ceilings etc)


See the AVP CD enhancements document, Atari Corp February 1995.

Jane has told the Waffling Taylor's in a recent podcast interview, he showed Purple Hampton a joke mode where he had the Aliens Ballet Dancing.. Spinning and pirouetting around...

Physically impossible, the Engine doesn't render the creatures as 3D models, no side view.



Later AVP games by Rebellion and Monolith were not sequels.

Rebellion's PC original used concepts they wanted to use in Jaguar AVP but were unable to use.


Monolith AVP II has no connection to the Jaguar title.

The PSP game by Rebellion is based on the film.


Opinion is split as to which was the best selling Jaguar title..

Whittaker and Jason Kingsley of Rebellion say AVP, Jeff Minter says Tempest 2000..but there are no confirmed sales figures for either title, just estimates and talk of market penetration.


Quote from: HicksIsAlive on May 12, 2020, 06:57:03 PM
Not sure about the models they would've used. I haven't seen anything of that scale really from that era. There's a great video on YouTube where the game's producer James Hampton gives a pretty good account of the process of making the game. It includes a segment about how they had to repeatedly buy and ship models of the Queen because UK customs would  frequently seize her under pornography legislation! She almost didn't make it into the game for this reason. He eventually "smuggled" it in via a local model shop in the US and posted it himself. There are several pictures of this model in the video but I can't make out the brand name on the box.

Link below




In the interest of balance having pointed out the dangers of going on what Jane Whittaker likes to tell people about AVP..

Jason Kingsley, Rebellion, talking to Retrogamer Magazine:


RG:The choice of 3 characters added a lot of to the games depth-were you pleased how it turned out?

JASON:Yes, that was specifically mine and Chris's idea. It was a very early instance of a game allowing you to play the bad guys, as it were, as well as the good guys. So yes, it's something we're very happy with.

As a game mechanic it really complicated things for us, because effectively we had to make 3 different games instead of 1,so it really was an unusual, innovative game.


Now given Purple Hampton claims the idea for 3 seperate camapains was HIS...

🤔


Jason also glosses over the mediocre reviews their first game, Eye Of The Storm recieved.



Jason had years earlier told Game Pro magazine, he'd coded Star Raiders on the Atari 400/800...


You wish Jason, that was Doug Neubauer.



Why folks from the industry can't simply be content with the roles they had on flagship titles and thus need to exaggerate and fabricate stories, I will never know.

Just take claims by all the surviving AVP teams with a punch of salt, not face value.



Forwarding the Stalking The Jaguar Videogames Magazine Interview with Purple Hampton, to site mods, hopefully they can add it to the achieves.
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: molasar on Jul 17, 2021, 02:11:00 PM
More screenshots from AvP prototype on PS1. In this iteration they abandoned digitized sprites in favor of polygons. I wonder if E3'97 version had already polygonal characters.


Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: lost dragon on Jul 26, 2021, 08:45:49 AM
Dan McNamee (Atari) lead tester on AVP backs up Purple Hamptons with the claim it was the Atari Team, not Jason Kingsley and anyone at Rebellion, who came up with the concept of 3 seperate campaigns and wanted each species to play differently.


Dan talks of the ability for the Marine to be able to run and other nifty stuff, being dropped because the team simply ran out of time.

Jane Whittaker has always stated features were dropped due to lack of space on the cartridge, game really needed to be on CD.

Though extra storage space wouldn't allowed for the supposed wall climbing Xenos, you'd need a much more advanced game engine and A. I routines than what Whittaker, Beaton and Pooler provided.


Jane Whittaker's original claim, made on 4-21-00 was that he had (on the source code at his home) a version of AVP in which the Predator grew tired from chasing the player, leant against a wall and said "I'm tired from all this running" and proceeds to light a cigarette.


Jane planned to release said code..


Over the years this story has changed to the Easter Egg making it into retail version and just needed a key press combo to unlock it, Jane not being sure if it made it into final code...

The Predator getting tired of killing other species off it's own back, going into a room, sitting down at a table and having a smoke, some times he claims having a pint.


We can expect a degree of confusion over the years, but the level of discrepancies shown, with the story getting exaggerated each time it's repeated, is a cause for concern.


Jane has never yet even shared his A. I routines, despite repeated promises.

And appears to be the only person ever to have witnessed the Easter Egg or Predator Net Gun or Wall Climbing Aliens.... 🤔
Title: Re: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread
Post by: Ferengo on Aug 03, 2021, 11:38:38 AM
This is still one of my favourite games of all time. Top 10 for sure.

I remember a friend saying he got an Atari Jaguar and AVP for it. We went round to his and I was blown away by this game. You have to remember, this was on a console not a PC. So for the time this was amazing. The frame rate or lag didn't matter, there was nothing really to rival it.

Suffice to say I begged, borrowed and stole to be able to get one, ha ha. Am sure I got a discount on a used one at my local games shop. All I had for ages was Cybermorph until my friend decided to sell/trade me his AVP.

I never played much of the Alien or Predator stories, but I did play and complete the Marine one. That game, when playing in complete darkness, just the sound of the station humming, then all of a sudden an alien attacks you! Man, that scared the hell out of me, still does.

I loved how it added a bit to the lore. If you accessed the terminals it gave you information on what was going on and also other species of aliens (Not Xenomorphs). It even alluded that a facehugger to infect an animal as small as a cat.

Still love this game to this day. Even bought a Jaguar and the game during lockdown. Even going back to it all these years later I don't mind the issues it had. I can understand someone trying to play it now that never did back then. I did the same with Silent Hill and could not get around the graphics and control system, which I feel for some is the same sort of issues with this.

I truly would love to see them remaster this but due to the low sales, niche market the system had and the licensing I very much doubt it will ever happen (Officially). Glad I still have an original system and game to play it on.

Did anyone else ever complete it and what story was it on?