Alien Prequel No Longer An Alien Film

[Kimarhi]

You mean a script that was actually written had some interesting ideas? Seemed like a good start. Walter Hill hiimself has said the Alien 3 script by himself was no good, the whole thing a 'complete f**king mess'. 

A finished product would've been subject to the same tamperings via fox.  You know this.

Then the entire tunnel sequence depicting the individual fates of the prisoners was a massive waste of time.

That's rather like saying the first hive battle in Aliens was a complete waste of time, since we have no name knockoff characters dying here as well.  These Marines dominated the film as much as Ripley just as the prisoners did and Ripley did in the second.

Entire family, biological or adopted dead [suffered twice], Earthly prospects wiped out. A lot of people do kill themselves over these things. Your example of a parent losing a child or children is pretty pussweak. Wipe out their entire family and every friend they can count twice.

LOLZ.  Hold the phone.  People dying of old age is quite different than your own kid being killed in a violent accident.  Ripelys daughter has a chance of happiness.  As did any earth or colony based friends. 

I wouldn't count the crew of the Nostromo as being anything more than coworkers for the most part.  She seems particularly annoyed at Parker + Brett.  Doubt she wished death on either, but they weren't people she shared her soul with.  Hicks and Newt were close bonds.  That lasted a couple of days.

Different people do things different ways.  That's a fact.  Some are stronger than others.

No idea where how you come up with your last conclusion there. Ripley was in Aliens because Cameron wrote her into it, when FOX demanded a Ripley-less script after Weaver's asking price, Cameron refused to do so. With Alien 3, Ripley was in because Joe Roth demanded it. Weaver has always said how wary she was of Aliens until she read the script, and how she was reluctant to do Alien 3 because her character had been explored enough. Not hard to deduce that her sudden 180 on the matter was influence with her pay-or-play contract, co-producer credit, etc.

Cameron wrote the script in hopes that Ripley would sign on after Fox offered her the contract.  In both instances the contract offered made her a top tier paid actress in Hollywood, and she discussed hesitancy about going back to the film in BOTH instances.  The quad/anthology also makes it pretty clear that she thinks every movie in the series has allowed her to explore different aspects to the Ripley character.

If Ripley had her way, she would have died immediately after discovering she was impregnated. Dillon roughs her up and makes her agree to killing the Alien first. She's his tool, that's all. Dillon cares about killing the creature, not euthanising Ripley, and vice versa, it seems. We see this when Dillon stays behind in the lead works. Later, the Company don't hide the fact very well that they're after the Alien and may dispose of Ripley regardless of getting the Alien or not. Her entire family and every person she has met in her life is dead, either naturally or slaughtered, and she's spent the last 20 minutes of the film feeling the pangs of 'birth'. Plunging herself into the lead was almost easy.

I don't seem to remember Dillon bullying her into battling the Alien.  I seem to remember him saying help us out or f**k yourself.  She chose the former because it was beneficial to both of them.  Had she wanted to kill herself she could've done it at ANYTIME in the film.  Pick the highest balcony in the cellblock and jump off.  Easy.

[Peakius Baragonius]

In Aliens the characters weren't "knock-offs," we got to know them and identify them in little ways by observing their characteristics, even if I can't perfectly match each name to each character. In the beginning of the film, we spend time with these guys and see how they respect each other, what the relationships between them are, like the flirting between Vasquez and Drake, the familiarity and one-liners between Hicks and Frost, and the more minor friendships. I haven't seen Alien Cubed yet so I can't compare the character development in there, but as a rule of thumb I rather think a group of friendly soldiers is easier to identify with than a planetful of rapists and murderers, regardless of how well they're developed. As a result, when the first fight scene comes, there are a lot of background soldiers who were dragged to their doom, but at the same time you have Apone, Drake, Frost, and the others who are easily recognizable at this point being dragged to their doom; the audience does (in theory) care.

[chupacabras acheronsis]

it doesn't really matter what you preffer. they were characters alright.

[Kimarhi]

In Aliens the characters weren't "knock-offs," we got to know them and identify them in little ways by observing their characteristics, even if I can't perfectly match each name to each character. In the beginning of the film, we spend time with these guys and see how they respect each other, what the relationships between them are, like the flirting between Vasquez and Drake, the familiarity and one-liners between Hicks and Frost, and the more minor friendships. I haven't seen Alien Cubed yet so I can't compare the character development in there, but as a rule of thumb I rather think a group of friendly soldiers is easier to identify with than a planetful of rapists and murderers, regardless of how well they're developed. As a result, when the first fight scene comes, there are a lot of background soldiers who were dragged to their doom, but at the same time you have Apone, Drake, Frost, and the others who are easily recognizable at this point being dragged to their doom; the audience does (in theory) care.

You observe "characteristics" in both the prisoners and Marines.  That doesn't make them well rounded. 

Both cast have characters there to just futher the action and show what kind of menace they are dealing with.  Weirzbowski and Crowe don't even have any onscreen dialogue.

It's hard to develop multiple characters.  That's why most movies don't.  I don't even have a problem with it because both cast served their purpose in both movies.  BUT, lets not say that Aliens isn't guilty of doing the same thing Alien 3 was.

[Valaquen]

A finished product would've been subject to the same tamperings via fox.  You know this.

Doesn't matter, the script provided for the final movie was already, by the accounts of the writers, lacklustre. TYou seem to think I'm arguing that any of the pre-Alien 3 Alien III scripts were any better. They weren't. Neither the addition nor subtraction Ripley helped.

That's rather like saying the first hive battle in Aliens was a complete waste of time, since we have no name knockoff characters dying here as well.  These Marines dominated the film as much as Ripley just as the prisoners did and Ripley did in the second.

Except the Marines were written to be endearing. People cared when they died. And the simply tag of 'murderer' 'rapist' or 'child molester' goes a long way in the audience's mind.

LOLZ.  Hold the phone.  People dying of old age is quite different than your own kid being killed in a violent accident.  Ripelys daughter has a chance of happiness.  As did any earth or colony based friends.

LOLZ. Ripley wouldn't care that they died happily in their beds, [of course, not that her daughter did - she died of cancer, never knowing what happened to her mother. People today die in their beds anguishing over the unknown fates of close relatives.] Ripley's mental anguish is, as is a lot of personal pain, subjective to herself. The other side to Ripley's trauma, as explained by Weaver, is that A] She lost her entire life, her entire world, and B] She had suffered an understandably traumatic event and had everything [job, title, credibility] stripped. Many people lose themselves over this alone.

'The emotional content is much greater in Aliens. I tried to imagine and comprehend something like that ... Coming back to a whole different world and haunted by the other one. Ripley's personal situation is so bleak. I know I'm playing the same character, but I feel she has changed so utterly by what happens to her early in the film.'
Sigourney Weaver.

'I started the synopsis we gave to FOX with the line, "Sometimes, survival is not enough." Ripley survived her first encounter with the Alien, but this film takes her to the point where she's probably ready to blow her brains out because that's what it can be like ... The whole idea of a little girl is the 'light at the end of the tunnel' concept. If Ripley was going to go into it alone and survive another encounter with these organisms after I've set up in the first act that the first time completely destroyed her life, then that's not going to be a satisfying ending. There must be a sense that, when she comes through the fire this time, it's an end to a cycle, she will have the tools to go on. So, the relationship with the little girl is absolutely critical.'
James Cameron, Starlog, 1986.

After Aliens, after rebuilding her life, this is all destroyed yet again. Don't tell me that it's not understandable that someone would find suicide to be an attractive option.

I wouldn't count the crew of the Nostromo as being anything more than coworkers for the most part.  She seems particularly annoyed at Parker + Brett.  Doubt she wished death on either, but they weren't people she shared her soul with.  Hicks and Newt were close bonds.  That lasted a couple of days.

Doesn't matter what you count. The film-makers and actors feel and intend differently.

'Ripley still feels respnosible for what happened on the Nostromo. She has a feeling that she could have done more to help the crew to survive. It's nonsense of course; but she can't help thinking that she could have done a better job.'
Sigourney Weaver.

As for the importance of the Newt relationship, see quote above, the 'light at the end of the tunnel' concept.

Cameron wrote the script in hopes that Ripley would sign on after Fox offered her the contract.

No, Cameron wrote the script thinking Weaver was already in the know.   

In both instances the contract offered made her a top tier paid actress in Hollywood, and she discussed hesitancy about going back to the film in BOTH instances.

Her hesitance in relation to Aliens was 'I didn't want to do a sequel unless we all felt that there was something else that needed said about it. I had a frank talk with the producer, Gale Anne Hurd, about the director, Jim Cameron, before the film started and I felt their purpose in doing it was their own. Not to cash in on the success of the first but [because] there was something in that story they wanted to finish. They certainly don't intend to duplicate the first, which has a kind of eerie majesty to it. This one is completely different. Ours is much more action [orientated] and, hopefully, more personal.'

Weaver has never said explicitly what changed her mind about Alien 3. But she WAS offered a massive amount of money [enough fo HR Giger to complain about it in an interview], a co-producer credit, a % of the film's gross, anda  pay-or-play contract, ie, once hired, FOX couldn't do a thing to her without paying her, including firing her. I trust her co-star to have noticed her sentiments on the movie, and I think it's noteworthy that, in the absence for Weaver's stark explanation of taking on Alien 3, Charles Dance explained: 'I don't think -and I could be talking completely out of my arse here- that Sigourney wanted to do another one, but she was paid quite a sum of money.'

I don't seem to remember Dillon bullying her into battling the Alien.  I seem to remember him saying help us out or f**k yourself.  She chose the former because it was beneficial to both of them.  Had she wanted to kill herself she could've done it at ANYTIME in the film.  Pick the highest balcony in the cellblock and jump off.  Easy.

Throwing her against the bars and seething in her face, whilst essentially blackmailing her into helping deal with the Alien, seems bullying to me. She couldn't have taken her own life because, as I'm sure she explains, she's afraid too. She doesn't have it in her.

[Kimarhi]

You do come to work prepared. 

But Sigourney has made just as many pro Alien 3 quotes in her career as she has pro Aliens ones.  The truth of the matter is that she's always seems to have been a bit of a mercenary.  Aliens made her a top tier actress in terms of pay in Hwood.  Alien 3 had her sitting aboard the top at the time.  As did Alien Res.  The fact she asked for extra money to have her head shaved speaks to her quiet Blackwater negotiation skills.

If your going to say she stopped playing hard to get because of the contract offered to her in Alien 3, then you have to look at it the same way in Aliens.  Of course she's going to say she went with Aliens because of the script.  She doesn't want to seem greedy.  I'm sure that a lister pay had nothing to do with it. 

Just like she said her interest in Alien 3 was to do things with the Ripley character she hadn't yet done.  I don't have the exact quotes in my epic quote library, but I'm sure its on the Anthology extra features, and I'm sure I could get SM to post som relevant quotations.

LOLZ. Ripley wouldn't care that they died happily in their beds, [of course, not that her daughter did - she died of cancer, never knowing what happened to her mother. People today die in their beds anguishing over the unknown fates of close relatives.] Ripley's mental anguish is, as is a lot of personal pain, subjective to herself. The other side to Ripley's trauma, as explained by Weaver, is that A] She lost her entire life, her entire world, and B] She had suffered an understandably traumatic event and had everything [job, title, credibility] stripped. Many people lose themselves over this alone.

And many people perservere.  I know a guy that died at my work from a heart attack that nearly ripped his heart in two.  Later his father died as did his step father (all within weeks of each other).  His mother didn't work and all of a sudden had nobody to provide for her.  Yet she still goes on today despite the troubles.  It's a person by person thing.

Throwing her against the bars and seething in her face, whilst essentially blackmailing her into helping deal with the Alien, seems bullying to me. She couldn't have taken her own life because, as I'm sure she explains, she's afraid too. She doesn't have it in her.

He only threw her against the bars after she got up seething in his face.  See seemd to have it in her when she flung herself into a furnace to burn alive.

Except the Marines were written to be endearing. People cared when they died. And the simply tag of 'murderer' 'rapist' or 'child molester' goes a long way in the audience's mind.

The same Marines talking about dumbass colonist, and rescuing colonist daughters virginity?  Same Marines who looked on Ripley with disgust?  Same Marines who bitched and acted like douches througout the majority of the film?

There wasn't that much endearing about them save for Hicks and maybe a guy like Frost.  The rest were top tier assholes.

Even if you did intend to make them endearing it still doesn't mean anything.  The waitress for AvPR who gets bellyf**ked was endearing.  I don't give two shits about her though because she was only there for a setpiece.  Writing endearing characters doesn't make them interesting ones.

[SM]

The fact she asked for extra money to have her head shaved speaks to her quiet Blackwater negotiation skills.

I think that's more down to her future earning capacity while the hair grew back.  ie.  It's probably cheaper for an actress to have their hair done up for a role, rather than have a wig made up, so she could possibly lose roles through lack of hair. 

As for the rest of the argument - been there, done that with Valaquen, and found it to be a waste of effort.

[Kimarhi]

The fact she asked for extra money to have her head shaved speaks to her quiet Blackwater negotiation skills.

I think that's more down to her future earning capacity while the hair grew back.  ie.  It's probably cheaper for an actress to have their hair done up for a role, rather than have a wig made up, so she could possibly lose roles through lack of hair. 

Fair point.

[DoomRulz]

The fact she asked for extra money to have her head shaved speaks to her quiet Blackwater negotiation skills.

I think that's more down to her future earning capacity while the hair grew back.  ie.  It's probably cheaper for an actress to have their hair done up for a role, rather than have a wig made up, so she could possibly lose roles through lack of hair. 

As for the rest of the argument - been there, done that with Valaquen, and found it to be a waste of effort.

With respect to Weaver, she doesn't strike as having been at a point in her career (then) that a lack of roles would have hurt her tremendously.

[SM]

In what way?

In the couple of years following Alien3 she did 1492, Dave and Death & The Maiden.  And who knows what theatre she was doing?

[DoomRulz]

Financially speaking. The Alien moves I'm sure made her boatloads of money, along with the Ghostbusters films so had she taken time off for her hair to grow back, it wouldn't have hurt her.

[SM]

Maybe not.  But on the other hand she may not have wanted her profile to lessen or give people the impression she wasn't available.  Or something.

[DoomRulz]

Just to be sure I understood your initial point then. She didn't take time off for the hair to grow back? You said something about having the hair done up.

[SM]

My point was; she woulda got paid extra to have her head shaved, due to the potential loss of earnings while it grew back (because she may get knocked back for a part due to being bald).

[Valaquen]

You do come to work prepared. 

But Sigourney has made just as many pro Alien 3 quotes in her career as she has pro Aliens ones.

Could you provide examples?
I have gher mainly sticking up for Fincher [saying nothing about the film's quality] and saying of the movie experience: "Um ... we had a lot of laughs ... I liked the dog Alien." 

If your going to say she stopped playing hard to get because of the contract offered to her in Alien 3, then you have to look at it the same way in Aliens.  Of course she's going to say she went with Aliens because of the script.  She doesn't want to seem greedy.  I'm sure that a lister pay had nothing to do with it. 

This is going to come down to our perspectives.

Just like she said her interest in Alien 3 was to do things with the Ripley character she hadn't yet done.  I don't have the exact quotes in my epic quote library, but I'm sure its on the Anthology extra features, and I'm sure I could get SM to post som relevant quotations.

I'd like the see 'em, but I'm still not convinced that Ripley in Alien 3 was radically new.

And many people perservere.  I know a guy that died at my work from a heart attack that nearly ripped his heart in two.  Later his father died as did his step father (all within weeks of each other).  His mother didn't work and all of a sudden had nobody to provide for her.  Yet she still goes on today despite the troubles.  It's a person by person thing.

It's an incomparable situation. No human has been projected 60 years into the future and pitted against an Alien horde [again], only to have their lives further destroyed. I've known people hurt themselves over pittances. It is a people-by-people thing, but to say that Ripley isn't in anguish after her experiences...

He only threw her against the bars after she got up seething in his face.  See seemd to have it in her when she flung herself into a furnace to burn alive.

It doesn't matter, she made a demand and was beaten down for it, physically and verbally. Of course she had it in her when she went into the furnace - which I've been arguing, it was the point of no return.

The same Marines talking about dumbass colonist, and rescuing colonist daughters virginity?  Same Marines who looked on Ripley with disgust?  Same Marines who bitched and acted like douches througout the majority of the film?

Err, didn't the Nostromo crew have divisions, made jokes about eating 'something else', treated one another with contempt, bickered throughout the experience etc? The marines have a laugh over breakfast and are suspicious of a woman who returned from a job the only surivor, everyone else dead. Both Weaver and Cameron have commented that the Marines [and others] suspected Ripley of some subterfuge, considering the outlandish story, completely understandable. On the other hand, the prisoners raped women and fondled kids. I know who I'd rather be with.

The waitress for AvPR who gets bellyf**ked was endearing. 

Really?