Poll
Question:
Are Out of the Shadows, River of Pain and Sea of Sorrows canon?
Option 1: Yes
Option 2: No
Is this trilogy of books canon to the Alien Universe?
As far as Fox are concerned, yes.
Well that has some far reaching implications on the universe... Namely relating to David being the origin of all Xenomorphs. Which can't be the case if they are canon.
Time travel ;)
No.
Not for myself, purely on the basis of suspension of disbelief.
Quote from: Frosty Venom on May 01, 2019, 02:00:04 PM
Well that has some far reaching implications on the universe... Namely relating to David being the origin of all Xenomorphs. Which can't be the case if they are canon.
When/if that definitely turns out to be the case, I'm sure they'll cease to be canon. But as it stands they are.
It doesn't really matter to me what Fox considers canon or not, because the Alien franchise is primarily cinematic, and none of the EU is ever acknowledged in the films. So if you don't want something to be canon outside of the movies, there's nothing obligating you to follow any directive. Plus, River of Pain does everything it can, along with most of the stories in Bug Hunt, to cheapen the conflict of Aliens. For me, no.
Plus, Fox has been changing ownership so whatever Fox said in 2014 doesn't really matter now. Not to mention, whoever it is at Fox that handles the Alien property w/r/t Titan Books/Dark Horse, etc. seems to change with time as well. There's not enough consistency to back up what is and what is not canon in the EU from their perspective.
Quote from: Hudson on May 01, 2019, 06:56:15 PM
Plus, River of Pain does everything it can, along with most of the stories in Bug Hunt, to cheapen the conflict of Aliens.
Could you elaborate on this?
Out of the Shadows
If possible, please no, unless Ash sent the ship that way...but still, how about a recorded Ripley dream instead? Same with Alien 3. Turn those into 2 Ripley nightmares, heck Alien 4 as well.
River of Pain Yes great on Audible
Sea of Sorrows
This is awesome on Audible, great character building
Even the pre Isolation novel-audiocast s great in a way, because it can opens more history and world building.
The book says Ash sent the ship that way.
Out of the Shadows is rendered impossible by the fact Ripley's harpoon gun can be seen still wedged under the Narcissus door at the start of
Aliens, so the hatch clearly hasn't opened at any point between films.
By implication that renders
Sea of Sorrows null and void too, given that it's a sequel.
As for
River of Pain, I just can't get over an entire platoon of Marines being at Hadley's Hope before
Aliens and absolutely no one from Gorman's squad making mention of it, ever.
But at the end of the day...
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 01, 2019, 01:00:12 PMAs far as Fox are concerned, yes.
^ This.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 02, 2019, 08:23:06 AM
Out of the Shadows is rendered impossible by the fact Ripley's harpoon gun can be seen still wedged under the Narcissus door at the start of Aliens, so the hatch clearly hasn't opened at any point between films.
What if she took it off before going into hypersleep, without us knowing obviously lol.
By implication that renders Sea of Sorrows null and void too, given that it's a sequel.
Ok, so that mine in Sea of Sorrows was the same as the one in Out of the Shadows, just set right before or?
As for River of Pain, I just can't get over an entire platoon of Marines being at Hadley's Hope before Aliens and absolutely no one from Gorman's squad making mention of it, ever.
What if Gorman never knew about it or wasn't told anything?
But at the end of the day...
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 01, 2019, 01:00:12 PMAs far as Fox are concerned, yes.
^ This.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 02, 2019, 08:23:06 AM
Out of the Shadows is rendered impossible by the fact Ripley's harpoon gun can be seen still wedged under the Narcissus door at the start of Aliens, so the hatch clearly hasn't opened at any point between films.
By implication that renders Sea of Sorrows null and void too, given that it's a sequel.
As for River of Pain, I just can't get over an entire platoon of Marines being at Hadley's Hope before Aliens and absolutely no one from Gorman's squad making mention of it, ever.
But at the end of the day...
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 01, 2019, 01:00:12 PMAs far as Fox are concerned, yes.
^ This.
You just made the situation seem even more absurd than I already thought it was.
Quote from: Nostromo on May 02, 2019, 05:32:30 PMWhat if she took it off before going into hypersleep, without us knowing obviously lol.
Took what off?
When Ripley shoots the Alien at the end of the first film, the harpoon gun is pulled from her hands and gets caught underneath the shuttle hatch as it slams closed. You can just about see it there, still wedged under the door, before the salvage crew cut their way inside at the start of
Aliens. If the hatch had been opened at any time in the interim the gun would've fallen loose.
The book doesn't say she re-wedges it under the door when she leaves the Marion (why would she do that anyway?), and moreover she's actually unconscious at the time - it's Hoop who puts her back into cryo, and he couldn't possibly put the gun back (again, why?) because he has to shut the door from the
outside so he can manually launch the shuttle from the Marion.
The only way it could theoretically work is if the hatch shut on it
so hard at the end of
Alien it literally fused the metal with the hatchway, but I sincerely doubt that's even possible and it would still require us to believe it didn't get knocked loose by everyone to'ing and fro'ing throughout the novel.
Moreover
River of Pain specifically says the salvage team find the harpoon gun lying on a console inside when they come aboard - which doesn't correspond at all to the second film, but is clearly meant to tie into
Out of the Shadows.
Quote from: Nostromo on May 02, 2019, 05:32:30 PMOk, so that mine in Sea of Sorrows was the same as the one in Out of the Shadows, just set right before or?
Same mine, but many years later.
Which additionally introduces the goof of how the mine's still there at all, because in
Out of the Shadows the heroes set a fuel cell to blow up and collapse it to seal the Aliens inside; one of them (Hoop, I think) basically says the entire area for several kilometres around is going to be turned into a cloud of dust. Yet somehow in
Sea of Sorrows the mine is almost completely intact.
Quote from: Nostromo on May 02, 2019, 05:32:30 PMWhat if Gorman never knew about it or wasn't told anything?
He would've done though, because USCM command would have known there were Marines stationed there, and USCM command had no reason whatsoever to withhold that information from a follow-up mission.
QuoteYou can just about see it there, still wedged under the door, before the salvage crew cut their way inside at the start of Aliens. If the hatch had been opened at any time in the interim the gun would've fallen loose.
Oh sh!t, I never knew this. I guess people here know more details than Fox knows about some things. Yeah, that's a stupid one though. It should be re written or something, it's just too much to swallow........All this mess just to shove Ripley on an Alien another adventure.......
QuoteSame mine, but many years later.
Which additionally introduces the goof of how the mine's still there at all, because in Out of the Shadows the heroes set a fuel cell to blow up and collapse it to seal the Aliens inside; one of them (Hoop, I think) basically says the entire area for several kilometres around is going to be turned into a cloud of dust. Yet somehow in Sea of Sorrows the mine is almost completely intact.
Well there you go lol. Looks like another big bobo. Loved the characters and story in this one though.
QuoteHe would've done though, because USCM command would have known there were Marines stationed there, and USCM command had no reason whatsoever to withhold that information from a follow-up mission.
Weren't these some of the marines that left the planet in the first issue of Fire and Stone?
I actually quite like the novel trilogy - well,
Out of the Shadows and
Sea of Sorrows, at least - but they all have some really glaring things that drag them down in my eyes.
Quote from: Nostromo on May 02, 2019, 06:47:12 PMWeren't these some of the marines that left the planet in the first issue of Fire and Stone?
I don't remember that, but I only read it the once a long time ago.
Some were covering the colonists escape, but I don't think any got away.
Quote from: SM on May 02, 2019, 08:59:07 PM
Some were covering the colonists escape, but I don't think any got away.
True, possibly 1 made it out though, would need to reopen Fire & Stone and take a peak, maybe worth re reading it, at least the first issues. It seems like one giant coordinated project, it was, wasn't? Nice initiative by Fox, to give the go ahead and probably the stories too?... to Dark Horse and Titan? Sorry I'm a bit lost in the novel world, but really into the Movies, Video Games, TPB's and Audibles. Somebody wake up Hicks lol. :o ;D :D Fox needs some proof readers, I bet Hudafuk would have caught that friggin harpoon gun glitch, actually, he did. :laugh:
The harpoon gun glitch is so miniscule most readers won't have noticed. Not many more noticed the much bigger glitch of the book saying the shuttle only had one hypersleep chamber.
I've advised Fox on continuity issues for the last couple of years, but the only one I know of that they changed was changing Alpha Doradus to Zeta Doradus in Defiance. And that's even deeper in the long grass than a harpoon or cryotube.
Nice.
Quote from: SM on May 02, 2019, 10:16:23 PM
The harpoon gun glitch is so miniscule most readers won't have noticed. Not many more noticed the much bigger glitch of the book saying the shuttle only had one hypersleep chamber.
Does that mean they were aware of it before publication?
I don't imagine they were, no.
Quote from: SM on May 03, 2019, 01:31:27 AM
I don't imagine they were, no.
Given that the book's plot was FOX-mandated anyway, I doubt they would have cared even if they did.
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 02, 2019, 03:31:42 AM
Quote from: Hudson on May 01, 2019, 06:56:15 PM
Plus, River of Pain does everything it can, along with most of the stories in Bug Hunt, to cheapen the conflict of Aliens.
Could you elaborate on this?
In terms of River of Pain, the notion that Colonial Marines were already stationed at Hadley's Hope makes it a really redundant/repetitive plot point for Colonial Marines to be returning and then failing at the same thing again. It cheapens
Aliens if it's canon, because then we're meant to believe that
Aliens is essentially the second time this has happened. And also, John Marucheck? Anybody...? Oops!
w/r/t Bug Hunt, the notion that the Colonial Marines had already battled tons of monsters already, and even the titular xenomorphs (I think in the case of Hicks in one of those stories?) doesn't make any sense when we see how terrified the Colonial Marines in
Aliens are. I've never taken the term 'bug hunt' to literally describe the USCMC flying around space and fighting monsters à la
Starship Troopers, or the dropship name Bug Stomper to be literal either. It always seemed to indicate a low-key 'seek and destroy' type mission (which is clearly boring to them), versus 'stand up fight' which I would take to mean a frontal assault of some type. I feel like the editor/authors of Bug Hunt were pretty misguided in their interpretation of this.
And there's also a story in Bug Hunt where there are some people who land on LV-426 and take off again. So, during the events of
Aliens, there were just some other randos who came and left without being noticed, as easy as that.
That sounds awful.
A criminal was trying to find some place to hide with a guy he knew a Hadley and there was a bounty hunter chasing him.
It's not unusual for people to get disappointed when their take on something is shown to not be shared by others. Such is the reaction by some to two prequels.
Whatever happened to Hoop? He was only referenced once in River of Pain but after that he's gone, floating in endless space forever.
Quote from: SM on May 03, 2019, 09:08:45 PM
A criminal was trying to find some place to hide with a guy he knew a Hadley and there was a bounty hunter chasing him.
Sounds painfully Star Warsy.
I wish they'd build more around the The Sea of Sorrows ending, that WY character reminds me of an elder Charlize Theron character, she's really well done, and I'm not talking about Charlize Theron. They fled that planet with 4 samples, 2 facehuggers, 2 aliens. Where'd they go? That male lead character is also really well done. This was one of the most believable stories I've seen in the Aliens universe. Really well done! Loved River of pain as a story too honestly, but it's probably time to move on from LV-426 and the main base.
There's so much more to expand with now now. I'd like to see a continuation of Weyland Yutani but without the testing Aliens on Humans dialogue and scripts, I'm not too excited about that or anything that shoves an Alien on the screen or story in the first half hour or so. I'd take a Covenant and Prometheus story any time of the day over an Alien Res story.
The Alien world needs some great scripts going forward.
The Rage War continues on from Sea of Sorrows.
Unfortunately.
Preds mein? Dang, thought this was an all out Alien story. Senriousnly? lol. ??? >:(
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 03, 2019, 11:57:35 PM
Quote from: SM on May 03, 2019, 09:08:45 PM
A criminal was trying to find some place to hide with a guy he knew a Hadley and there was a bounty hunter chasing him.
Sounds painfully Star Warsy.
On the surface perhaps, but it doesn't come across like that in the story.
The Alienverse is it's own thing. It should avoid being too Star Warsy or Star Treky.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 05, 2019, 11:27:03 PM
The Alienverse is it's own thing. It should avoid being too Star Warsy or Star Treky.
I think that's a pretty vague distinction. Like, I get what you mean, but I think what triggers one person as being "too Star Wars" wouldn't bother someone else.
That, and like SM said, it's all in the context and execution. Like, when you boil the plot of 'Alien' down to one sentence, it sounds and awful lot like a shitty B-movie.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 05, 2019, 11:27:03 PM
The Alienverse is it's own thing. It should avoid being too Star Warsy or Star Treky.
I recently had to make a point about magnetic fields regarding a particular draft...
As in correcting inaccurate technobabble or trying to talk them out of it altogether?
Not talking out of so much, but advising against and suggesting an alternative while still achieving the same desired result.
Good. I can't imagine someone like Brett talking like Data. Hell, even Ash doesn't talk like Data unless he's trying to bullshit them.
Like this?
DALLAS
We're coming into range of the
planet. What kind of orbit do
you plan for the cargo.
ASH
Z local vertical mode.
DALLAS
You figure it will hold that.
ASH
You worried about redundancy
management disabling CMGS control.
DALLAS
Yeah.
ASH
CMG control is inhibited via
DAS/DCS. We'll augment with
TACS and monitor through ATMDC
and computer interface.
(pause)
Feel better?
DALLAS
A lot.
Exactly. I have no memory of that exchange so I assume it was either never filmed or was deleted from the final cut.
It was definitely filmed, but was either cut or inaudible as part of the overlapping filtered dialogue during the landing. I think that applies to 2 or 3 pages worth of stuff.
And to be clear what I mentioned above wasn't technobabble.
I agree, but it's still needlessly technical exposition of something that was relatively trivial to the plot. The final cut accomplished the same thing by mostly showing the process and culminating with Dallas saying: "Money's safe. Let's take her down."
Sorry what I meant was the script draft I read wasn't using magnetic fields as technobabble.
The landing in Alien works much better without all the dialogue being audible. The background audio chatter enhances the scene whereas if we'd heard it all there's a good chance it would've been clunky as.
Most people don't even know what a magnetic field is so it's probably for the best to avoid bringing it up unless it's integral to the plot somehow. Like this...
Ye gods, that movie...
But did you dig it?
No.
It was silly as Sunshine but without any of the style.