New shared universe AvP timeline? Changes to cannon?

[Mr.Turok]

For the sake of storytelling, I rather not have an Engineer/Predator war, rather have them come across each other for the first time on screen. I did like how Fire and Stone treated the crossover of the two species of Ahab searching and studying the Engineers. However the panels were slightly shallow and would be interesting to see their initial meeting. How do they feel, think, react to each other. It was like the moment to how the Engineer in Prometheus interacted with Weyland and company, what was going in its mind when it encountered humans for the first time and what could have changed if Weyland didn't demand for immortality? The fact that it didn't kill them right away up until Weyland demanded for immortality indicated that things could have gone much more smoothly. No more war scales, The Predator executed that idea of a human/ Predator war terribly, I want none of that.

Elements of Prometheus can exist in the AVPverse, as the concept themselves are not exclusive to Alien themselves. After all, if Fire and Stone is to go with, it seems like the events of AVP/AVPR never occurred, therefore implying the Prometheus version of the Weyland origins is the dominant canon. One can say the same for the AVPverse, where the Prometheus Weyland origins never occurred, Yutani has the plasma pistol in their possession, and you can build off from there.

Now, I am wondering if any new upcoming lore from Hunting Grounds will alter the course of the AVPverse, seeing how both timelines coexist with each other. Like say with the presence of Predator technology, will it really alter human tech and things to come in the future. I recall that the plasma rifle in Colonial Marines is canon, hinting that maybe it is derived from Pred tech? Not to mention that if experimental medical treatment enabled Dutch to gain immortality, how else can this new tech be explored in future stories?

[TurokSwe]

For the sake of storytelling, I rather not have an Engineer/Predator war, rather have them come across each other for the first time on screen. I did like how Fire and Stone treated the crossover of the two species of Ahab searching and studying the Engineers. However the panels were slightly shallow and would be interesting to see their initial meeting. How do they feel, think, react to each other. It was like the moment to how the Engineer in Prometheus interacted with Weyland and company, what was going in its mind when it encountered humans for the first time and what could have changed if Weyland didn't demand for immortality? The fact that it didn't kill them right away up until Weyland demanded for immortality indicated that things could have gone much more smoothly. No more war scales, The Predator executed that idea of a human/ Predator war terribly, I want none of that.

I approve of the concept of an ancient war between Yautja and Engineers, perhaps even being yet another example of created beings rebelling against their creators.

Elements of Prometheus can exist in the AVPverse, as the concept themselves are not exclusive to Alien themselves. After all, if Fire and Stone is to go with, it seems like the events of AVP/AVPR never occurred, therefore implying the Prometheus version of the Weyland origins is the dominant canon. One can say the same for the AVPverse, where the Prometheus Weyland origins never occurred, Yutani has the plasma pistol in their possession, and you can build off from there.

AVP/AVPR already exists in the same universe as Prometheus/Covenant. Also, how does Fire and Stone supposedly suggest that AVP/AVPR never occurred, and that especially when they seem to reference the film franchise? The Fire and Stone saga acknowledges all four film franchises. There's no need to overcomplicate things. Just acknowledge all twelve films.

Now, I am wondering if any new upcoming lore from Hunting Grounds will alter the course of the AVPverse, seeing how both timelines coexist with each other. Like say with the presence of Predator technology, will it really alter human tech and things to come in the future. I recall that the plasma rifle in Colonial Marines is canon, hinting that maybe it is derived from Pred tech? Not to mention that if experimental medical treatment enabled Dutch to gain immortality, how else can this new tech be explored in future stories?

That was the whole point of Miss Yutani acquiring the Yautja plasma gun at the end of AVPR, that humanity did acquire Yautja technology and used it as the basis for the advanced technology we see in the Alien films.

[Mr.Turok]

I approve of the concept of an ancient war between Yautja and Engineers, perhaps even being yet another example of created beings rebelling against their creators.

Because new lore shows that the Predators that we know now had a different set of creators, the Amengi. Amengi found the Hish, ancestors of the Predator race, altered, modified, experimented, and enslaved them. Up till to the point that the Predators evolved to what we are accustomed to now, when they rebelled against the Amengi. Creation vs creator war has already been touched upon.

AVP/AVPR already exists in the same universe as Prometheus/Covenant. Also, how does Fire and Stone supposedly suggest that AVP/AVPR never occurred, and that especially when they seem to reference the film franchise? The Fire and Stone saga acknowledges all four film franchises. There's no need to overcomplicate things. Just acknowledge all twelve films.

Proof? Peter Weyland and Charles Bishop Weyland are two very different people who created Weyland Corp and Weyland Industries, lived and died differently respectively.

That was the whole point of Miss Yutani acquiring the Yautja plasma gun at the end of AVPR, that humanity did acquire Yautja technology and used it as the basis for the advanced technology we see in the Alien films.

Yeah I know, it was suggested for the AVP timeline.

[TurokSwe]

Because new lore shows that the Predators that we know now had a different set of creators, the Amengi. Amengi found the Hish, ancestors of the Predator race, altered, modified, experimented, and enslaved them. Up till to the point that the Predators evolved to what we are accustomed to now, when they rebelled against the Amengi.

Are the "Amengi" not Engineers? Were the Amengi or the Hish not created by the Engineers like they created life on Earth? There's still room open for the Engineers to have been the creators of Yautja.

Creation vs creator war has already been touched upon.

Yes, but this would be just another example of that, and it would further make sense of their feud and follow the theme.

Proof? Peter Weyland and Charles Bishop Weyland are two very different people who created Weyland Corp and Weyland Industries, lived and died differently respectively.

Proof of what exactly? Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland are considerably similar characters and their history and character is designed in such a way that they can be easily understood as the relationship of father and son, with the father paving the way for the son to rise to power after passing away eight years before the son ignited his iteration of the very same company and followed up on his father's vision for the company (which operates simultaneously under the titles of "Weyland Corporation" and "Weyland Industries" in both films). Further noting; https://sites.google.com/view/xenoversecenter/xenoblog/2020-archive/on-the-kinship-of-charles-and-peter-weyland

Yeah I know, it was suggested for the AVP timeline.

What do you mean?

[Nightmare Asylum]

Proof of what exactly? Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland are considerably similar characters and their history and character is designed in such a way that they can be easily understood as the relationship of father and son, with the father paving the way for the son to rise to power after passing away eight years before the son ignited his iteration of the very same company and followed up on his father's vision for the company (which operates simultaneously under the titles of "Weyland Corporation" and "Weyland Industries" in both films). Further noting; https://sites.google.com/view/xenoversecenter/xenoblog/2020-archive/on-the-kinship-of-charles-and-peter-weyland

"When I said to [Ridley Scott], 'You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies,' he just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process." - Damon Lindelof

They weren't "designed" to be compatible, or to be father and son. Ridley Scott didn't care one way or the other about what Alien vs Predator had set up and was more than happy to overwrite it in order to tell his own story. And based on the viral timeline that was released for Prometheus, which bore absolutely no reference to Charles Bishop Weyland or a previous iteration of the company, it seems that nobody at 20th Century Fox at the time really cared at all that he steamrolled over what the AVP movies had established.

[SM]

Seriously.

Zealotry doesn't make for rewarding discussion.

[TurokSwe]

"When I said to [Ridley Scott], 'You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies,' he just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process." - Damon Lindelof

Still doesn't mean that references didn't slip through.

They weren't "designed" to be compatible, or to be father and son.

It certainly would seem that way considering how well they fit together, and someone might very well have intended it.

Ridley Scott didn't care one way or the other about what Alien vs Predator had set up and was more than happy to overwrite it in order to tell his own story.

Clearly, but thankfully it's Fox we listen to here, not Scott.

And based on the viral timeline that was released for Prometheus, which bore absolutely no reference to Charles Bishop Weyland or a previous iteration of the company, it seems that nobody at 20th Century Fox at the time really cared at all that he steamrolled over what the AVP movies had established.

Not only could you chalk that up to mere licensing issues (as some insist upon suggesting) and perhaps even careless mistakes on the part of Fox, but the timeline describes Peter's birth as occurring while Charles was alive while describing one of Peter's parents as being a self-taught engineer very much like Charles (and never actually identifies the parent so that it could be ruled out), and the timeline actually does make what seems like an interesting reference to Charles Weyland in that it mentions Peter securing a patent for a synthetic trachea (a cure for lung cancer) on his 14th birthday on October 1st, 2004, just a few days before Charles died while suffering from lung cancer. Adding that if Fox (as judging from their products) are operating under the general rule that AVP and Prometheus exist in continuity with each other and Peter founded his iteration of the company (which goes under the two same titles of Weyland Corporation and Weyland Industries that Charles' iteration of the company went under) eight years after Charles died, then there's really no reason why we ought to assume they are not two different iterations of the same company.

Guys, don't waste your time

That I think is good advice for once!

Seriously.

Zealotry doesn't make for rewarding discussion.

Depends on what you mean.

[SM]

It means we know how this story ends.

[Samhain13]

"No one understands the lonely perfection of my dreams. I found perfection here. I've created it. A perfect organism."

No one understands the lonely perfection of my canon. I found perfection here.

I've created it. The personal canon.

[TurokSwe]

It means we know how this story ends.

Judging from what can be seen here, agreed.

[Mr.Turok]

Are the "Amengi" not Engineers? Were the Amengi or the Hish not created by the Engineers like they created life on Earth? There's still room open for the Engineers to have been the creators of Yautja.

No, Amengi and Engineers are two different races. One in insect like and the other humanoid. They have no relation and according to Predator history, the Amengi were the ones who done the alterations and enslaving. There is no room or mention of the Engineers. 

Proof of what exactly? Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland are considerably similar characters and their history and character is designed in such a way that they can be easily understood as the relationship of father and son, with the father paving the way for the son to rise to power after passing away eight years before the son ignited his iteration of the very same company and followed up on his father's vision for the company (which operates simultaneously under the titles of "Weyland Corporation" and "Weyland Industries" in both films). Further noting; https://sites.google.com/view/xenoversecenter/xenoblog/2020-archive/on-the-kinship-of-charles-and-peter-weyland

You sited me a fancanon site. I can't take that information seriously. I can at cite you three sources to how this is different:

Writers and Producers:

Weyland Corp and its founder Peter Weyland from Prometheus contradict the Weyland Industries origin portrayed in Alien vs. Predator. When Prometheus writer Damon Lindelof pointed this out to director Ridley Scott during the film's production, Scott made it clear that he had no intention of following the timeline laid out in the Alien vs. Predator films;[5] the subsequent film Alien: Covenant would cement the retcon of events. Interestingly, in Jon Spaihts' original script for Prometheus, titled Alien: Engineers, Weyland Corp was still referred to as Weyland Industries, the name used in Alien vs. Predator.[6] This was subsequently changed in later drafts. Despite the change, the company is still referred to as "Weyland Industries" at the end of the viral video Happy Birthday, David.

Peter Weyland's Origins

Peter Weyland was born in Mumbai, India on October 1, 1990, to his mother, an Oxford-educated Professor of Comparative Mythology, and his father, a self-taught engineer.[1] At the age of 14, he was granted a Method Patent for a synthetic trachea constructed entirely of synthetically-engineered stem cells, becoming his twelfth registered patent to date. On October 11, 2012, Peter Weyland founded the eponymous Weyland Corp.

Charles Bishop Weyland's Origins

Charles Bishop Weyland's mother passed away when he was just two years old, leaving him to be raised by his harsh father and a succession of nannies.[4] At the age of just 21, he graduated from Harvard with an M.B.A., and following his father's death, he inherited the family's satellite mapping company.[4] Under the young Weyland's supervision, the family business grew to be the largest satellite systems operation in the world within a decade. During this period of rapid growth, Weyland acquired numerous other telecommunications enterprises, including a Midwest cable franchise and a telecom grid based in Nevada.[4]

They cannot be father and son when they have very different backgrounds and timelines. At this point this is your headcanon I'm arguing with, which is fine to have, but I am talking about established canon lore, therefore I cannot and will not argue further in this.

[Xenomrph]

I didn't exactly suggest they had done much to begin with, but I'm more talking about how they've spoken about it

Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point

there's no justifiable grounds for asserting the existence of supposedly "three distinct franchises with Alien/Prometheus, Predator, and AVP" but this is still merely hearsay which is contradicted by their products, not acknowledged by their fanbase, as well as logically incoherent

1. Just because you think it's hearsay doesn't mean it actually is.

2. The current, present "canon" stance need not be beholden to prior products (or any products at all), and can change at a moment's notice. That throws, like, 95% of your blog treatise right out the window.

3. "not acknowledged by the fanbase", aside from being unproveable hearsay, would also fall under the domain of "head canon" - a topic you allegedly hate. Keep in mind that head canon is a good thing, it's how people enjoy what they want to enjoy and ignore what they don't.

4. Having three separate canons is more "logically coherent" than having just one with (admittedly) dubious continuity. It lets people who only want to have Alien in their Alien stuff have their own "canon", while people who want a canon with everything can have one, too. Like it's the best of both worlds, and for the life of me I cannot fathom why you're against this idea - you're already getting the "official canon" you want (if "official canon" matters so much to you), and other people who don't like that "official canon" have their own as well. What, exactly, is the problem here?

"No one understands the lonely perfection of my dreams. I found perfection here. I've created it. A perfect organism."

No one understands the lonely perfection of my canon. I found perfection here.

I've created it. The personal canon.

Wisdom.

They cannot be father and son when they have very different backgrounds and timelines. At this point this is your headcanon I'm arguing with, which is fine to have, but I am talking about established canon lore, therefore I cannot and will not argue further in this.

They can be made to fit (and reasonably easily, given what you've quoted), but "officially" AvP has its own canon which encompasses everything, while there's also an Alien canon that doesn't.

To respond to the original post, I'm generally in line with what SM said - I think they might hit the reset button to a point, as has been done before. If they're smart they'll follow the RPG's logic of "hard canon" sources and "soft canon" elements that can be integrated into it at the viewer's discretion.

[Mr.Turok]

I'm still a little worried about a reboot. They just never do so well.

[TurokSwe]

No, Amengi and Engineers are two different races. One in insect like and the other humanoid. They have no relation and according to Predator history, the Amengi were the ones who done the alterations and enslaving. There is no room or mention of the Engineers.

No, I meant that the Engineers created the Amengi and the Hish through seeding planets with the Black Goo pathogen (which they engineered) just like they created life on Earth and the Xenomorphs. There is clearly room for Engineers to be their creators, and just because this hasn't been mentioned yet doesn't mean it isn't true or that it can't be mentioned in a future product.

You sited me a fancanon site. I can't take that information seriously. I can at cite you three sources to how this is different:

It's my personal site, but the information on there is factual, and the conclusions drawn are based on the facts presented. If you're not going to take that seriously, then how could I take your position seriously? Let's be fair here and address the arguments.

Writers and Producers:

Weyland Corp and its founder Peter Weyland from Prometheus contradict the Weyland Industries origin portrayed in Alien vs. Predator. When Prometheus writer Damon Lindelof pointed this out to director Ridley Scott during the film's production, Scott made it clear that he had no intention of following the timeline laid out in the Alien vs. Predator films;[5] the subsequent film Alien: Covenant would cement the retcon of events. Interestingly, in Jon Spaihts' original script for Prometheus, titled Alien: Engineers, Weyland Corp was still referred to as Weyland Industries, the name used in Alien vs. Predator.[6] This was subsequently changed in later drafts. Despite the change, the company is still referred to as "Weyland Industries" at the end of the viral video Happy Birthday, David.

First off, you're citing (or in fact you didn't even cite the source) the fan-wiki Xenopedia whose admins are intentionally trying to portray AVP and Prometheus as separate continuities, and second, this quote doesn't even elaborate upon nor support its assertions with factual evidence and rational arguments. It's a baseless claim, and the admin in control of the site does not allow it to be questioned.

Peter Weyland's Origins

Peter Weyland was born in Mumbai, India on October 1, 1990, to his mother, an Oxford-educated Professor of Comparative Mythology, and his father, a self-taught engineer.[1] At the age of 14, he was granted a Method Patent for a synthetic trachea constructed entirely of synthetically-engineered stem cells, becoming his twelfth registered patent to date. On October 11, 2012, Peter Weyland founded the eponymous Weyland Corp.

What is supposed to be the problem with this? Where is the supposed contradiction?

Charles Bishop Weyland's Origins

Charles Bishop Weyland's mother passed away when he was just two years old, leaving him to be raised by his harsh father and a succession of nannies.[4] At the age of just 21, he graduated from Harvard with an M.B.A., and following his father's death, he inherited the family's satellite mapping company.[4] Under the young Weyland's supervision, the family business grew to be the largest satellite systems operation in the world within a decade. During this period of rapid growth, Weyland acquired numerous other telecommunications enterprises, including a Midwest cable franchise and a telecom grid based in Nevada.[4]

What is supposed to be the problem with this? Where is the supposed contradiction?

They cannot be father and son when they have very different backgrounds and timelines. At this point this is your headcanon I'm arguing with, which is fine to have, but I am talking about established canon lore, therefore I cannot and will not argue further in this.

No offense, but you're being a little bit stupid here if you think contrasting the backstory of Charles with the backstory of Peter actually means they are contradictory, because that's like arguing that my dad having a different backstory to myself means we are not related because the backstories don't match. If they are father and son (and Peter was born in 1990 while Charles was born around the 1950s) then they are obviously going to have different backstories. I mean come on now, this is nothing short of silly.

[Xenomrph]

I'm still a little worried about a reboot. They just never do so well.

Ditto, it's not my preferred method, even if it's the "easiest". It's part of why I like the RPG and its attempt to subtly reintroduce pre-reboot things in a way that lets people choose to take them or leave them, I think it's the best way to handle a reboot while simultaneously working around said reboot.

It's my personal site, but the information on there is factual, and the conclusions drawn are based on the facts presented. If you're not going to take that seriously, then how could I take your position seriously? Let's be fair here and address the arguments.

Those "conclusions" are still your opinions (which are in turn based on your opinions on pieces of data), which is his point.

the fan-wiki Xenopedia whose admins are intentionally trying to portray AVP and Prometheus as separate continuities, and second, this quote doesn't even elaborate upon nor support its assertions with factual evidence and rational arguments. It's a baseless claim, and the admin in control of the site does not allow it to be questioned.

Well I mean, they're not wrong.