So, whats the connection between the Engineers and the aliens in this game?

Started by bobby brown, Apr 29, 2021, 09:47:41 AM

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So, whats the connection between the Engineers and the aliens in this game? (Read 13,811 times)

judge death

judge death

#15
Well I would say there is no define answer on it, as covenant shows its possible David maybe made them but also signs of that he didnt and followed a blueprint, and then prometheus goes against it in many ways, and then we have books and also the big differences and we have no reveal of what is the truth yet and most likely wont as Ridley dont seem to get to do the final movie, dead silence on it so far.

For starters we have different names for the type of xenomorphs:
Plagiarus Preapotens: the original aliens
Plagiarus Linesteres: davids alien

Then we have the large difference in design of the creature and eggs:
Starting with the eggs:
Davids alien has petals that goes halfway on the egg, the egg is way bigger than normal xeno egg and very different look. Davids alien egg is different shaped and has a thin bottom while the original aliens egg is flat bottomed and rounder.
The petals on the original egg is only at the top and not going halfway in lenght.
Davids alien egg didnt grow the rotes that the original alien egg does. (in covenant that is supposedly be years old we see has no rotes and just stands on itself on the ground in his basement.)
The facehugger is also way bigger and dont need 8-12 hours to lay its embryo inside a host but just a minute is enough:



The adult form differs quite a lot despite coming from same host: human and I only count alien 1-3 movies here as resurrection wasnt the original alien and avp as well:
Its bigger and different kind of legs and hands.
the backpipes are more merged together than the original ones.
The neck part is hollow on davids while gigers is merged together.
Legs and arms lack the biomechanical look and is more fleshy, much difference in the legs skinn.
the head lacks all tubes and is shorter and the tube that goes horisontaly is longer, it dont have the joints from the jaw that goes to the neck.
Ribcage is very different and not similair at all.
The xenos in aliens who were older had the same body and designs to the hr giger one, just the head and feet was more armoured due to their age and the blades on their forearms, else their body design is identical, while davids isnt.




Then we have the behaviour differences:
David alien is far as clever as big chap and attacked a crane as it though it was an enemy somehow..... And was more easy to trick and far from being the perfect organism as the original aliens was shown as. Also when they bursted out davids alien was transparent and fully formed and didnt need as much time to gestate as the original aliens do.

And if davids alien is the original alien and created them then its still to be explained how their eggs and creatures suddenly change in design to look like hr gigers and james camerons aliens.

Well this is a matter of interpretation and opinion and everything can be changed in the lore, like with a puzzle: enough violence and you can make any piece fit :P So those who see David as the aliens creator fine, nothing wrong with it and have it sugested in the movie and lore, same for those of us who thinks he didnt, have things that suggest that being the case too, go with whichever you find best for you :)

But those differences and what we seen and the novel and expanded materials and names etc to me suggest David made his own version of the xenomorphs and as ridley scott said in an interview: the derelight ship is already on lv-426 and its very old and space jockey fossilised and its been established in the franchise for 40 years, myself isnt a fan of changing things that has been established.
Im pretty much in the same camp as these alien fans, if you have 1 hour and a half of time to spare, quite a good review and bringing up same issues with it all and the franchise as a whole. Gotta laugh at their prediction of the predator movie before it was released and it got as bad as they joked :P


Drukathi

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on May 06, 2021, 06:13:05 PM
Quote from: Drukathi on May 06, 2021, 08:10:26 AM
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on May 05, 2021, 09:47:40 PM
David created the worst retcon in history

What the retcon? Retcon implies a change of knowledge. But we have no knowledge of the Alien origin before Covenant.
Ah, you mean the deleric ship with a fossilized pilot only being there for less than 20 years? even tho it was always implied to be there for centuries? aight

Nothing wrong with this. I just change the viewing angle and try to take the story on the other side, even if I do not like a new result.

In the end, how about the ultimate checkmate argument: Dallas was just a space trucker and could not establish facts correctly. There could be not 2000 years, not 200 years, not 20 years, but 20 months or 20 weeks between Awakening and Alien. The operating principle of "Fossilization" is not necessary to explain. The main thing - the result. This is how franchise works since 1979.

PAS Spinelli

Quote from: Drukathi on May 06, 2021, 07:15:43 PM
Nothing wrong with this. I just change the viewing angle and try to take the story on the other side, even if I do not like a new result.

In the end, how about the ultimate checkmate argument: Dallas was just a space trucker and could not establish facts correctly. There could be not 2000 years, not 200 years, not 20 years, but 20 months or 20 weeks between Awakening and Alien. The operating principle of "Fossilization" is not necessary to explain. The main thing - the result. This is how franchise works since 1979.
The "ultimate checkmate" being ignoring what was meant to be exposition dialogue to inform the audience?
Here is the real ultimate checkmate, Ridley has no idea about what he is doing and has no plan for the prequels, he doesn't care about anyone or any other piece of media within this franchise, he is making shit up as he goes and he has nothing but spite for the alien creature itself as he has gone out of his way to blame it for his 2 bellow average wannabe deep movies being called of shitty

[cancerblack]

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on May 06, 2021, 07:47:37 PM
The "ultimate checkmate" being ignoring what was meant to be exposition dialogue to inform the audience?

Unironically yes. While it was expositional in intention it's also irrelevant fluff delivered by a layperson character and can comfortably be ignored to accommodate new ideas.

Nightmare Asylum

Nightmare Asylum

#19
If they stick to their (i.e., Ridley's) guns and retain the "David as creator" angle, they could also always attribute the ancient, biomechanical stylings (and the "grown" Space Jockey, which seems to be a biomechanical organism in its own right, not a suit - perhaps another biomechanical fusion as the Engineer's flesh and its flight suit are grafted together into one single mutated entity, potentially even becoming one with the ship itself?) of the original Derelict to a mutation via the Pathogen; as it stands, even David's "clean" crashed Juggernaut in Covenant seems to be in the process of rotting, and that one has only been on "Paradise" for ~10 years. This is flute-powered alien technology that we don't completely understand, and with a substance like the Pathogen that is eventually going to be used to perfect the Alien as it grows beyond the purely biological rendition seen in Covenant also in play, it could also theoretically serve as factor that bridges the gap between the stone-like, mechanical Juggernauts and the "fossilized" biological fixtures in place in the original Derelict.

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on May 06, 2021, 07:47:37 PM
The "ultimate checkmate" being ignoring what was meant to be exposition dialogue to inform the audience?

At the time, that absolutely was dialogue meant to inform the audience. It has since been retconned.

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on May 06, 2021, 07:47:37 PM
Here is the real ultimate checkmate, Ridley has no idea about what he is doing and has no plan for the prequels, he doesn't care about anyone or any other piece of media within this franchise, he is making shit up as he goes and he has nothing but spite for the alien creature itself as he has gone out of his way to blame it for his 2 bellow average wannabe deep movies being called of shitty


I'd hardly say that he has no idea what he's doing, but yeah, he does change his mind a lot. But whatever, that doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'm interested in his train of thought, even if it is sometimes all over the place, because I find his concepts and ideas to be genuinely interesting. I don't at all think that he has "spite" for the Alien creature, despite his "the beast is cooked" comments; he just doesn't seem to have interest in using the Alien franchise as one with which to tell a haunted house in space story anymore. He's latched onto the David character, and the idea of the sprawling relationship between creators and their creations, and sees the Alien universe as the tapestry in which to tell this story. I say let him go for it; I found Prometheus to be an interesting mess of a movie, and Covenant to be a genuinely good movie pretty much through and through. I want to see him finish his vision here; I'm curious to see how he lands this ship. When he's done, some other filmmaker will likely swoop in and retcon it all anyways, and that's fine. The Alien franchise, like the creature itself, can be malleable and able to take new forms and shapes with different creators. It'd hardly be the first time a filmmaker has come in and retconned all of the extended materials or, hell, even the thematic intent of the previous film.

BlueMarsalis79

All of the above, apart from the Pathogen being used as the substance to cause that merging of the biological and the mechanical together.

judge death

At the time, that absolutely was dialogue meant to inform the audience. It has since been retconned.
Where? Covenant dont say it isnt there but that David has made a protomorph that lacks the biomechanical look and behaviour of the xeno and he went off with covenant to his own part of space, far away from lv-426 and it dont align with the details, and in interviews we know derelight ship is already on LV-426 unless Ridley yet again changes his mind. If backlash was bad with covenant which was a good movie but its easy to tell and that video I showed show how faithful fans reacts to changing things that is established for a long time and break the lore to them, making the derelight ship crash on lv-426 just before nostromo and have David inside the space jockey suit(in photos of it we see it having a tounge and teeth etc) and him somehow building the tunnel system underneath and he somehow carried a chestburster inside which androids cant. That will piss of the fanbase even more.

[cancerblack]

Grok add new drawing to cave wall.

Grug no like how new drawing change old drawing.

Grug angry forever now.

BlueMarsalis79

I do think the idea of him being the Pilot's absolute nonsense.

[cancerblack]

Also I don't think the design ever had a tongue, just weird as hell mouth parts.

judge death

Quote from: [cancerblack] on May 06, 2021, 08:40:02 PM
Grok add new drawing to cave wall.

Grug no like how new drawing change old drawing.

Grug angry forever now.
Well franchises is like that and established lore and rules where you know what the fans know and want and what one should not change, just see star wars where the new trilogy is rumored to be uncanonised soon and fixed with the mandalorian show who went back to the old lore and adding dark troopers, luke skywalker and was welcomed by the old hardcore fans, while the sequel trilogy is hated for breaking so many rules in the lore :P

Nightmare Asylum

The best thing about George Lucas' Star Wars is that, even when he was getting shit on constantly for the prequels, he didn't give into fans' whims and stuck to his guns on the story that he wanted to tell. And in the process, even he retconned and recontextualized quite a bit about his original trilogy films.

As for Disney Star Wars, I'd argue that the biggest failure of those movies (most specifically, the ones directed by J.J. Abrams) is that they were too afraid to really try anything new and they stuck too closely to the same formula of the originals.

I would much, much rather see franchises that are destined to go on forever reinvent themselves a bit and try something new and interesting rather than spin their wheels in place for years on end. If some elements of the previous films get retconned or recontextualized in the process, then so be it. It's all fiction anyways. I'd rather have a good movie (or at least, an interesting one) than one that is just fine but does nothing interesting of note but happens to fit neatly into a fictional timeline or wiki entry.

BlueMarsalis79

The original Space Jockey? It sort of does have a tongue and teeth. Although inscrutable.

Please do not bring up the sequel Trilogy that's another discussion entirely, one discussed over and over again, their main issue's regurgitating the past, and not committing to the future, all three of them.

Say what you will of Ridley Scott but he's trying new things.

[cancerblack]

Quote from: judge death on May 06, 2021, 08:45:11 PM
Quote from: [cancerblack] on May 06, 2021, 08:40:02 PM
Grok add new drawing to cave wall.

Grug no like how new drawing change old drawing.

Grug angry forever now.
Well franchises is like that and established lore and rules where you know what the fans know and want and what one should not change, just see star wars where the new trilogy is rumored to be uncanonised soon and fixed with the mandalorian show who went back to the old lore and adding dark troopers, luke skywalker and was welcomed by the old hardcore fans, while the sequel trilogy is hated for breaking so many rules in the lore :P

Cool so we'll just have 100 A:CMs instead then. Fantastic.

Nightmare Asylum

Hey now, even something as asinine as Colonial Marines tried to get in on that prequel train. ;)


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