User Information

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread  (Read 15242 times)

HicksIsAlive
May 12, 2020, 06:57:03 PM
Reply #120 on: May 12, 2020, 06:57:03 PM
Not sure about the models they would’ve used. I haven’t seen anything of that scale really from that era. There’s a great video on YouTube where the game’s producer James Hampton gives a pretty good account of the process of making the game. It includes a segment about how they had to repeatedly buy and ship models of the Queen because UK customs would  frequently seize her under pornography legislation! She almost didn’t make it into the game for this reason. He eventually “smuggled” it in via a local model shop in the US and posted it himself. There are several pictures of this model in the video but I can’t make out the brand name on the box.

Link below



OpenMaw
May 13, 2020, 01:52:32 AM
Reply #121 on: May 13, 2020, 01:52:32 AM
Looks like the queen is a Halcyon 1/12 scale model kit in the "Movie Classics" line. Interesting.


HicksIsAlive
May 13, 2020, 01:16:00 PM
Reply #122 on: May 13, 2020, 01:16:00 PM
Looks like the queen is a Halcyon 1/12 scale model kit in the "Movie Classics" line. Interesting.
Looked it up online and you’re definitely right.

I checked out eBay listings for the normal alien from Halcyon to check and it doesn’t look like they used the Alien Warrior mold as it has the ridged head and is upright but their Alien 3 mold is a dead ringer! Looks like we have our winner!



SiL
May 14, 2020, 08:42:55 AM
Reply #124 on: May 14, 2020, 08:42:55 AM
I always wondered why they changed it.


OpenMaw
May 14, 2020, 05:45:14 PM
Reply #125 on: May 14, 2020, 05:45:14 PM
Just going by the sprites as they appear. The replacement is a more contrasted color with the backgrounds of the base, it's a little more refined, and I think the scale is a little better. The Big Chap sprites make em look twice as big as a Predator in certain situations, also it seems a little more jagged and the monochrome color blends into some of the base walls a little more.



As to the model mystery that still leaves the Predator. The Halcyon Predator 2 kit does not have a mask. Though they could still have used it as a base, I guess.


lost dragon
Apr 10, 2021, 09:40:56 AM
Reply #126 on: Apr 10, 2021, 09:40:56 AM
Only just noticed this, but looking back at some of the text on the computer terminals, I start to question just how much actual research they did, as some of this is way off:



Sublevel 2
==========

2.1) Terminal Location: Med-Lab

- Medical Log/Chief Medical Officers Log, 5 Pages

Upon Entering the alien vessel, Private Barker was attacked by a parasite
which attached itself to his face. Subject failed to survive attempted
removal. Chief Surgeon Whittaker accepts full responsibility.

Personal log - Chief Medical Officer Whittaker reporting. It has been
less than 4 hours since my last entry and several more crew members
have been attacked by these yellow spider like parasites. When left
alone, they soon fell off and died.

Personal log - Chief Medical Officer Whittaker reporting. Apparently
these parasites carry an egg of some kind, which they leave in their
host. Soon after they die our infected crew exhibit grand-mal seizures.
Then they suffer a terrible horrifying fate




The Face Hugger isn't an egg carrier, it deposits a Xenomorph embryo in the Esophagus, ok minor gaffe, but...


The log goes onto say:





A creature about 2 metres in length, snakelike and powerful explodes
from the host's chest in a shower of blood and bone. These creatures
are growing quickly and taking more of the crew into their vessel.



Chestbursters are small, generally thought to be  not more than a foot tall and around two feet long including their tails


2 metres has them at  6 Feet, 6.74 inches, that's bigger than the average human host..


I also find it strange the less than realiable source, Jane Whittaker is claiming they ran out of space on even the 4 Meg cartridge, to include things like wall climbing Aliens (the game has walls at right angles, wouldn't they need to be of varying angles for this to be implemented?), net gun for the Predator, more animation frames etc etc


Yet they found room to include those digitised photos of programming team holding up mugshot cards and other unused assets.


Whittaker also claims the team deliberately choose no in-game music, as it would of ruined the atmosphere, they went for the ambient sound fx and background noise instead...


Yet on the Shinto AVP Jaguar podcast, he states there was to be a full orchestral soundtrack, but there wasn't room on the cart.


I did email one of the sound team, but never had any reply.

Anyone know which claim is true?


SiL
Apr 10, 2021, 12:07:13 PM
Reply #127 on: Apr 10, 2021, 12:07:13 PM
Two meters might have been a simple error of someone trying to use metric, as two feet would be more accurate.

The wall climbing thing is weird at there would be no point in it regardless; all the rooms are boxes, as you say, so there's no actual benefit to bring sideways or upside down.

I'd be interested to hear what the answer is with the soundtrack. That sounds more like variations on a theme than lying - they wanted one, found there was no room, and decided to abandon it rather than try to fit it?

Also, developers using valuable resources for easter eggs rather than game content is hardly unique - ACM, released decades later, had a perfectly functioning donut easter egg even when the rest of the game was a buggy mess  :D

« Last Edit: Apr 10, 2021, 12:08:48 PM by SiL »

molasar
Apr 10, 2021, 05:28:16 PM
Reply #128 on: Apr 10, 2021, 05:28:16 PM
Yet they found room to include those digitised photos of programming team holding up mugshot cards and other unused assets.

They are from one of prototype versions.

Also there is this "test theme" but I do not know if it was extracted from a ROM.



lost dragon
Apr 11, 2021, 09:48:52 AM
Reply #129 on: Apr 11, 2021, 09:48:52 AM
Shinto was kind enough to get back to me and once again, AVP producer Purple Hampton gives a more detailed account than Jane Whittaker.


Retro Gamer magazine issue 57, page 30.
“In some instances what may have been a limitation turned into
an identifying feature in the game. So when we found that the
memory limitations weren’t going to let us have a movie-like
symphonic score, we opted to go the other direction, and create
an eerie soundscape from the ambient space station noise. The
result added a lot of dramatic tension and captured the spooky
feeling of being alone – until a threatening Predator clicking sound
appeared nearby.”


I'm really not sure what Whittaker is playing at, claiming lead coder status, never a Rebellion employee, game more an Atari product than a Rebellion one (Atari gave Rebellion the AVP Development contract), Mike Beaton flying home to UK to finish coding as homesick.


Purple states Mike stayed till the very end in the USA, giving up months of his life..


And now the variations on why no music.


Sadly Whittaker isn't alone, Kingsley Brothers have changed the story of how they became Jaguar developers, so many times, with the 2 different accounts now merging into one, they want to take credit for coming up with the 3 Seperate campaign ideas.


I'm used to a lot of ill feelings from development teams on big titles within the games industry, but AVP on Jaguar has been one of the worst ever to ry and get a true sense of what really went on.

Yet they found room to include those digitised photos of programming team holding up mugshot cards and other unused assets.

They are from one of prototype versions.

Also there is this "test theme" but I do not know if it was extracted from a ROM.



I'm getting very confused what has and hasn't been found on what versions, with code been releases, then apparently no longer available.


Has anyone ever found evidence of this Easter Egg Jane Whittaker has referenced in interviews?


Early accounts had it chasing you, giving up, leaning against a wall and lighting up a cigarette, as it was knackered...

He changed that in his infamous Mastercast TV Interview Part One, to the Predator sitting down on a chair and drinking a pint of Newcastle Brown Ale, but tells Andrew Rosa, show host, code made it into retail version, is unlockable by a key press combo.


Whittaker has fabricated so much regarding Cyberdreams Dark Seed and Working with H. R GIGER, being digitized for main character (that was Mike Dawson), doing Amiga version graphics.. In reality whittaker never worked for Cyberdreams, just briefly play tested the Amiga whilst at Mirage

He's fabricated claims of various games whilst at Graftgold

Fabricated claims of involvement with Mike Singleton..


The Sam Tramiel AVP bonus story changes from account to account..


$20,000 cash?

$40,000 cash?

Keys to Sam's new sports car?

Sam's Daughters new sports car?

During AVP Development?

As a completion bonus?


At this stage this Predator Easter Egg sounds very, very suspect.



Two meters might have been a simple error of someone trying to use metric, as two feet would be more accurate.

The wall climbing thing is weird at there would be no point in it regardless; all the rooms are boxes, as you say, so there's no actual benefit to bring sideways or upside down.

I'd be interested to hear what the answer is with the soundtrack. That sounds more like variations on a theme than lying - they wanted one, found there was no room, and decided to abandon it rather than try to fit it?

Also, developers using valuable resources for easter eggs rather than game content is hardly unique - ACM, released decades later, had a perfectly functioning donut easter egg even when the rest of the game was a buggy mess  :D


🤣 I doubt ATARI had the best Q+A Department, they usually used errors as a basis to reject a game and delay payment to the external development teams, so many horror stories out there.

Lynx Wolfenstein was canned by John Romero as the Tramiel family first milestone payment was 3 months late.


I just can't get my head around Whittaker claiming Wall climbing Xenomorphs were dropped due to Cartridge space limitations, my understanding is due to way the game engine is built, box-like rooms as you say, you wouldn't have any benifit, nor would it be technically possible.

The Xenomorph path finding A. I itself had them getting stuck behind objects, when trying to reach you.

A most odd statement for Whittaker to make, as was the claim they weren't ALLOWED to show the Xenomorphs side-on.


The SNES, GB Activision 2D AVP games do just that.

Aliens by Electric Dreams and Activision on the C64 does just that.

Capcom's AVP has them side on..

SNES, MD etc Alien 3 have them side-on..

« Last Edit: Apr 11, 2021, 10:10:31 AM by lost dragon »

molasar
Apr 11, 2021, 01:59:16 PM
Reply #130 on: Apr 11, 2021, 01:59:16 PM
Shinto was kind enough to get back to me and once again, AVP producer Purple Hampton gives a more detailed account than Jane Whittaker.


Retro Gamer magazine issue 57, page 30.
“In some instances what may have been a limitation turned into
an identifying feature in the game. So when we found that the
memory limitations weren’t going to let us have a movie-like
symphonic score, we opted to go the other direction, and create
an eerie soundscape from the ambient space station noise. The
result added a lot of dramatic tension and captured the spooky
feeling of being alone – until a threatening Predator clicking sound
appeared nearby.”


I'm really not sure what Whittaker is playing at, claiming lead coder status, never a Rebellion employee, game more an Atari product than a Rebellion one (Atari gave Rebellion the AVP Development contract), Mike Beaton flying home to UK to finish coding as homesick.


Purple states Mike stayed till the very end in the USA, giving up months of his life..


And now the variations on why no music.


Sadly Whittaker isn't alone, Kingsley Brothers have changed the story of how they became Jaguar developers, so many times, with the 2 different accounts now merging into one, they want to take credit for coming up with the 3 Seperate campaign ideas.


I'm used to a lot of ill feelings from development teams on big titles within the games industry, but AVP on Jaguar has been one of the worst ever to ry and get a true sense of what really went on.

Yet they found room to include those digitised photos of programming team holding up mugshot cards and other unused assets.

They are from one of prototype versions.

Also there is this "test theme" but I do not know if it was extracted from a ROM.



I'm getting very confused what has and hasn't been found on what versions, with code been releases, then apparently no longer available.


Has anyone ever found evidence of this Easter Egg Jane Whittaker has referenced in interviews?


Early accounts had it chasing you, giving up, leaning against a wall and lighting up a cigarette, as it was knackered...

He changed that in his infamous Mastercast TV Interview Part One, to the Predator sitting down on a chair and drinking a pint of Newcastle Brown Ale, but tells Andrew Rosa, show host, code made it into retail version, is unlockable by a key press combo.


Whittaker has fabricated so much regarding Cyberdreams Dark Seed and Working with H. R GIGER, being digitized for main character (that was Mike Dawson), doing Amiga version graphics.. In reality whittaker never worked for Cyberdreams, just briefly play tested the Amiga whilst at Mirage

He's fabricated claims of various games whilst at Graftgold

Fabricated claims of involvement with Mike Singleton..


The Sam Tramiel AVP bonus story changes from account to account..


$20,000 cash?

$40,000 cash?

Keys to Sam's new sports car?

Sam's Daughters new sports car?

During AVP Development?

As a completion bonus?


At this stage this Predator Easter Egg sounds very, very suspect.



Two meters might have been a simple error of someone trying to use metric, as two feet would be more accurate.

The wall climbing thing is weird at there would be no point in it regardless; all the rooms are boxes, as you say, so there's no actual benefit to bring sideways or upside down.

I'd be interested to hear what the answer is with the soundtrack. That sounds more like variations on a theme than lying - they wanted one, found there was no room, and decided to abandon it rather than try to fit it?

Also, developers using valuable resources for easter eggs rather than game content is hardly unique - ACM, released decades later, had a perfectly functioning donut easter egg even when the rest of the game was a buggy mess  :D


🤣 I doubt ATARI had the best Q+A Department, they usually used errors as a basis to reject a game and delay payment to the external development teams, so many horror stories out there.

Lynx Wolfenstein was canned by John Romero as the Tramiel family first milestone payment was 3 months late.


I just can't get my head around Whittaker claiming Wall climbing Xenomorphs were dropped due to Cartridge space limitations, my understanding is due to way the game engine is built, box-like rooms as you say, you wouldn't have any benifit, nor would it be technically possible.

The Xenomorph path finding A. I itself had them getting stuck behind objects, when trying to reach you.

A most odd statement for Whittaker to make, as was the claim they weren't ALLOWED to show the Xenomorphs side-on.


The SNES, GB Activision 2D AVP games do just that.

Aliens by Electric Dreams and Activision on the C64 does just that.

Capcom's AVP has them side on..

SNES, MD etc Alien 3 have them side-on..


Whatever info  Shinto has you can find it in this thread as well. But definitely a development of the game was not easy.





lost dragon
Apr 11, 2021, 02:18:26 PM
Reply #131 on: Apr 11, 2021, 02:18:26 PM
Found the 'We deliberately didn't add music' quote by Whittaker..

Posted on Twitter 28th Feb.2021 8.44am in reply to @VintageDude3.

Site won't let me post screen grab,but it's there on @whittakergames Tweet history:


Whittaker says:

"We deliberately didn't add music to AVP to create the tension, especially with the motion tracker sounds"


Now come on Jane.

For a start your role was A. I routines and the computer terminal stuff, you weren't part of the AVP sound design team.

You also weren't the games producer.


If your going to talk about aspects of the game design outside your field, have the decency to quote the games Producer, Purple Hampton and his explanation that it was a memory constraints issue, that led the team off into the direction of using sound fx to create atmosphere and tension and there had originally been plans for a full orchestral score.


It's bad play to try and give accounts for work and decisions that weren't your own, especially if your answers are only part of what really happened.



molasar
Apr 11, 2021, 02:38:24 PM
Reply #132 on: Apr 11, 2021, 02:38:24 PM
I think they had a lot of ideas and tested some of them.


Also I would not expect any of game devs to remember everything in details from over 25 years ago. That is why their comments can be inaccurate.

For example I tried to talk about unreleased port of Killer Instinct 2 on SNES (1996) with some of its devs and their memories were foggy.

« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2021, 02:06:24 PM by molasar »

SiL
Apr 12, 2021, 10:31:36 AM
Reply #133 on: Apr 12, 2021, 10:31:36 AM
Yeah, I feel this isn't so egregious. After 25 years it would be very easy for "We chose to use creepy ambience because we realised we couldn't use music" to turn into "we chose to use creepy ambience".


lost dragon
Apr 17, 2021, 10:26:35 AM
Reply #134 on: Apr 17, 2021, 10:26:35 AM
I've spoken with a good few coders, artists, musicians and P. R folk from the industry over the years whilst assisting sites like Unseen64 and Games Thst Weren't and you soon learn to appreciate just what a mammoth task it is to try and get people to remember much if anything of events 25-30 years ago.

Most are gracious enough to say, it's been so long ago I honestly don't remember, my memory is hazzy or I simply have no recollection.


Jane Whittaker by comparison in interviews, has spoken of a near photographic memory, then starts making some very questionable claims about working with big name individuals on flagship titles.

That's not helpful when your looking to document a game, nor is Jason Kingsley using interviews and Making Of.. Features to make swipes at old employees..


Nobody doubts Jane worked on Jaguar AVP doing the A. I Routines and other misc tasks, anymore than Mike Beaton wrote the graphics engine...


It's just Jane's attempt to exaggerate the role Jane had, that causes issues when trying to piece events together

Jane and Mike weren't the only coders, Mike Pooler did additional coding, but never gets mentioned...

Jane has told people if they check the games Credits, they will see Andrew Whittaker listed as lead coder, that's false..


The sound team can give better insights than Jane on sound design, the games producer, Purple Hampton already has, thankfully...


So we can get a sense of what factors influenced the game design.


I'm just getting tired of seeing the same few individuals being asked about AVP:

Jane Whittaker

Jason Kingsley

Even Purple Hampton now


We only have the accounts of the above, plus a few from the Late Lance Lewis.


There's obviously been some ill feelings between Rebellion and Atari over the years, egos come into play with people using interviews to over state how, if it weren't for them, the game wouldn't of been what it was, might have been a 2D title, far less depth etc.


GTW taught me to never stop looking into titles, multiple sources are the only means of getting anything like an idea of what really happened.


But with Jag AVP?

Multiple individuals simply now refuse to talk about it, others have sadly passed on and the accounts from Whittaker, Hampton and Kingsley, all conflict each other's at key points.


It's clear there were the classic Tramiel budget issues, which meant staff not being paid, game concepts dropped due to limited cartridge space...


Rebellion wanted to move onto. Other, multi-platform titles, so delivered Atari the basic game engine, but not much of an actual game..

But we need a lot of new voices to give their accounts.



And sadly I just see no sign of that happening.


 

Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube RSS Feed