Poll
Question:
What's your favourite out of Prometheus and Alien: Covenant?
Option 1: Prometheus
votes: 18
Option 2: Alien: Covenant
votes: 23
Choose and explain why you think its the better film.
I personally prefer Prometheus. I thought Fassbender was amazing in that movie.
Covenant. I enjoyed more Alien-esque feel, it wasn't trying to be this grand epic scifi tale Prometheus was, I dug smaller, more intimate scale - Alien is no Star Wars.
Speaking of Fassbender - I'm glad they've put a much stronger emphasis on him in Covenant. I actually like all the themes and subtexts "David created the Alien" brings to the table
Plus, that score kicks ass
Prometheus, because of the vibe. It's just bubbling over with enthusiasm for itself. The whole thing just screams, "Here we go on a brand-new outer space adventure!" Covenant, on the other hand, just kind of mutters, "Fine, here's your f**kin' Alien movie."
Covenant for sure.
Prometheus looks great and has some really interesting core concepts, but the movie is pretty fundamentally a mess in almost every other regard. A fascinating mess, and one absolutely worth giving the time of day to, but a mess nonetheless.
Covenant is an absolute highlight in the franchise on the whole; it's really haunting Gothic horror in space, the meanest the series has been since Alien 3, David is at his best, the film expands on what does work from Prometheus and really spins it into something of the quality that the material deserves. The film is probably second only to The Last Duel as far as contemporary Ridley Scott goes, too.
hmm that's tough.
Both films have pros and cons, and I enjoy both for different reasons.
I love the cosmic-horror plot elements and nihilistic themes of Prometheus, along with the fantastic cinematography, and the way it attempts to expand on the world of Alien without overtly being connected.
For Covenant I love how much it leans into the gothic atmosphere and tone, and again the cinematography looks amazing. Also the neomorphs are one of my favorite additions to the xeno lineup.
Only thing is I feel that the film drops in quality and enjoyment when the actual xeno shows up. Altho tbf its just that scene on the ship that I hate. It just feels so utterly tacked on and derivative. Could have been cut out altogether, for the films betterment.
Both have some pretty glaring flaws in writing and character development. But I think I enjoy the overall story and new elements that Prometheus brought to the table more. But Covenant has grown on me a lot over the years for sure.
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on Feb 08, 2023, 04:38:41 PMPrometheus, because of the vibe. It's just bubbling over with enthusiasm for itself. The whole thing just screams, "Here we go on a brand-new outer space adventure!" Covenant, on the other hand, just kind of mutters, "Fine, here's your f**kin' Alien movie."
Prometheus is like when your grandma takes vegetables from her garden to make the most delicious meal ever! 😍
Covenant on the other hand...
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/tumblr_a9620d0365a7112dabeda3799ea816bc_bdd12667_400fe8cf790b85ba8cf.gif)
The food box has a beautiful philosophical gothic art though🙈😅👉👈👁🦇👁
Covenant is better written, better acted, has a better score and has better action scenes. Prometheus has a better trailer...
Prometheus has so much potential to be better, which is what makes it so frustrating for me. Great visuals, sound and some themes are interesting - there is a legendary sci-fi defining film under here somewhere... The film as a whole, however, feels segmented and like a plethora of different people's input scattered about with no fruition to any of it. Characters are odd and not how people talk or behave. The plot is also weird; and under scrutiny makes no sense. And I think the Engineers were uninspired.
Covenant, while still having odd characters and ones that aren't fleshed out, tends to feel more focused at least. It's also a much darker tone which I feel is more in line with the Alien series. An aspect that I really enjoy about it, too, is that it's almost like a self-contained little horror piece. Apart from all that, though, the usual Ridley Scott visual awesomeness is here, as well as much better music and atmosphere.
Quote from: PsyKore on Feb 12, 2023, 04:44:46 AMPrometheus has so much potential to be better, which is what makes it so frustrating for me. Great visuals, sound and some themes are interesting - there is a legendary sci-fi defining film under here somewhere...
That's why I tend to watch the Chaos Edition, or the Virtual Workprint. Both fanedits that add lots of content back in, and make it a significantly better film, in my opinion.
The original movie in 3D, though... Oof! That's a pretty movie.
I think the first half hour or so of Prometheus is perfect. It starts to go downhill when they get back to the ship when the Silica storm hits.
As for Covenant, I think the opening prologue with Weyland and David is one of the best sequences in the entire series. But the meat of the film falls flat pretty quickly. The reintroduction of the creature itself was such an anti-climax given Ridley Scott's obvious disdain for it these days. How the same man that created the original Alien can craft up a final act in Covenant with precisely zero tension is beyond me.
Both will always be missed opportunities IMO.
I've always believed Prometheus would have worked better as an actual sequel rather than a prequel. If you watch it back, there's absolutely no reason why this couldn't be set 30 years after Alien 3. Just swap out Peter for Michael.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Feb 12, 2023, 08:31:59 PMI think the first half hour or so of Prometheus is perfect.
The first hour had Fifield in it, so that immediately disqualifies it from being perfect.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 12, 2023, 09:06:36 PMQuote from: TheBATMAN on Feb 12, 2023, 08:31:59 PMI think the first half hour or so of Prometheus is perfect.
The first hour had Fifield in it, so that immediately disqualifies it from being perfect.
I'm here to make money.
Quote from: SiL on Aug 11, 2017, 11:54:57 AMEstablishing his credentials in a scene of establishing the mission would've been fine. Instead we got "Fifield; geologist, dick." And that's it.
I think he loved rocks so much he saved some samples for analysis back on the ship, and I bet that's why he wanted to go back to the Prometheus with great excitement :)
Pups.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 12, 2023, 09:08:36 PMQuote from: SiL on Aug 11, 2017, 11:54:57 AMEstablishing his credentials in a scene of establishing the mission would've been fine. Instead we got "Fifield; geologist, dick." And that's it.
That's the best character description I've ever written.
I watch both hoping that I'll like them more each time coming away disappointed.
Pups vs Flute we all lose.
They backed themselves into a corner by being prequels.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 12, 2023, 09:57:52 PMI think he loved rocks so much he saved some samples for analysis back on the ship, and I bet that's why he wanted to go back to the Prometheus with great excitement :)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 15, 2018, 11:38:57 AMI bet even rocks hate Fifield.
Quote from: dnicholson277 on Feb 12, 2023, 11:14:26 PMPups vs Flute we all lose.
The flute is great in both movies though.
Prometheus.
Although the quality's about even. Both have creepy atmosphere.
Quote from: Elmazalman on Feb 13, 2023, 08:19:46 AMPrometheus.
Although the quality's about even. Both have creepy atmosphere.
The Neomorph outside the temple looked quite spooky.
(https://i.ibb.co/pRqpYJZ/Alien-Covenant-screencaps-kissthemgoodbye-28334929.jpg)
There are some really great images and moments but it's like Ridley has nobody to keep him in check.
Quote from: dnicholson277 on Feb 13, 2023, 03:35:19 PMit's like Ridley has nobody to keep him in check.
That's what's so enticing. The current blockbuster climate seems to be hellbent on keeping creatives in check, much to its overall detriment. More of this instead, please.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Feb 13, 2023, 03:49:13 PMQuote from: dnicholson277 on Feb 13, 2023, 03:35:19 PMit's like Ridley has nobody to keep him in check.
That's what's so enticing. The current blockbuster climate seems to be hellbent on keeping creatives in check, much to its overall detriment. More of this instead, please.
Balance is always best. The best films are usually made with producers who reign in directors who go too far, but run interference on studios who meddle too much.
Prometheus is an absolute dumpster fire that I hate everything about and made me start to dislike Scott's constant involvement in the franchise. Covenant was a little better..........but not by much. You can tell he didn't want to do anything more with the Alien. Which is why I hate his involvement in the series now. Make constant complaints about the franchise runners wanting Alien in an Alien movie, make an average then final movie to the franchise, and instead of leaving, stay attached to everything involving the series. Makes no sense other than he thinks Alien is HIS franchise.
I cannot stand Prometheus though. I think it is the worst movie in the franchise INCLUDING the two AvPs and Resurrection. A waste of celluloid. And all three of those movies I think are pretty freaking bad.
Get rid of the boneship, and leave out the jockey suits from the first film, and prometheus isn't even related to Alien.........SO WHY TRY TO CROSS IT INTO THE UNIVERSE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Just make your own BS sci fi movie Ridley, damn.
I actually think his whole series of Raised by wolves was done because he had to go back to the Alien in covenant, and RBW was a way for him to get his creative lunacy out of his system which he could've done before sullying the Alien franchise good name.
Seriously, this movie pissed me off to what I imagine Aliens fans felt about Alien 3 and I cannot WAIT for Scott to separate himself from the Alien series so we can avoid any steaming piles of dog shit in the future. I don't care that he is going to do something different with the Alien everytime he directs, his last two takes on the franchise are trash and you can only expect trash takes on future installments.
Covenant takes an immediate hit for having to follow prometheus. A brain dead take on origins that didn't need to be exposited on. There is so much in this movie that makes me roll my eyes about how f**king dumb it is that I've only watched it maybe twice since 2012.
Daaang
If you think Prometheus is worse than Requiem, then I just can't take you seriously.
@Kimarhi gets an A+ for that post.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Feb 14, 2023, 04:54:32 AMPrometheus is an absolute dumpster fire
Now, now Kimarhi, you sound like a 13 year old.
Don't care. Prometheus is that bad. It basically rips the intro of AvP (seriously AVP), they get star coordinates off of a freaking cave mural, the engineers have 100 percent of the same dna that humans do (c'mon bro), they randomly explode a jockey head to make the movie fall completely into campy cheese, people are in places they aren't supposed to be because of the editing, it has been so long since I watched it I think there are people alive in scenes they already died in if I remember correctly, they turn a fifteen foot armored beast in the jockeys into ten foot tall men. It is an absolutely garbage take on the franchise, that half ass tries to explain things that don't need explaining, does a poor job at it, and then ask more questions than it answers. Noomi Rapace was wasted. Idris Elba was wasted. Fassbender was the only good thing in Prometheus, but he didn't actually become good until Covenant. Prometheus only introduced his character. That is it. That is the only thing I will give Prometheus. Not that David was a good character in that movie, just that it introduced him.
If you like it, good for you I guess. There is no accounting for taste.
I'm not a particular fan of Prometheus myself, but to say it's an absolute dumpster fire is a bit disingenuous.
The script and editing has notable issues. Pretty much everything else is top notch. The cinematography, production design and Fassbender's performance is exceptional.
Looking pretty doesn't save the movie from being terrible.
Story has to be somewhat believable and reasonable. The acting has to be ok. Fassbender was the best part of the film, it is obvious Scott wanted to make him the villain star of the prequel series over the alien, but everybody else was giving nothing to work with.
This is a hill I will die on. Prometheus is terri-bad.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Feb 14, 2023, 05:43:50 PMLooking pretty doesn't save the movie from being terrible.
Story has to be somewhat believable and reasonable. The acting has to be ok. Fassbender was the best part of the film, it is obvious Scott wanted to make him the villain star of the prequel series over the alien, but everybody else was giving nothing to work with.
This is a hill I will die on. Prometheus is terri-bad.
(https://media.tenor.com/9k_DNT8tBA4AAAAM/simpsons-i-wish-to-subscribe-to-your-newsletter.gif)
Prometheus is pretty fundamentally a mess, from the core of its screenplay to the execution of its final edit (and it doesn't have the excuses that Alien 3 has that make it easier to not be as hard on it for those issues). It's damn good looking, though, and I find the core ideas that it is presenting to be fascinating. I'd argue that the movie has merit, despite its many, many glaring problems.
And Covenant is good.
That's true, but Ridley Scott seemed excited about the 'new ground' they were breaking. You can tell that when you watch the Prometheus making of. In a way, they infected me with that enthusiasm to know where all this was headed.
In the same documentary though, you can see that the production of this movie was of the 'Yes sir' kind, which clearly hurt the execution of the final product.😅
Maybe he is a bit harsh on prometheus but at the core I agree with it, prometheus is bad as a alien movie, it has no aliens for the first, made the universe way smaller, there is no strange aliens but its like star trek: all life in universe is humanoids...which is boring and lame.
Retconning the space jockey to giant blue humans and its a suit when Giger claimed it to be a fossil and one can tell from its design it wasnt a suit. I hate resurrection but I watch that movie and avp 1 and 2 way more than prometheus.
Im on the same page as this youtuber on it:
Coventant however is great, together with its novelization its amazing :D Novel explains the story more, in the movie one have to watch the details and between the lines that David didnt create xenomorph but his own strain of it, more a protomorph, afteral Ridley said that the derelight is alrerady on LV-426 by the time covenant happens. BGut people love the idea of David creating the xeno although the one in the movie has a very different design, different looking eggs, different evolution stages etc but now I shall not dwelve more into this.
Back on point: Kimahri has a point and I can see how one can argue avpr is better than prometheus, it has the true xenomorph and treats it like it while prometheus is just a mess of a movie, grand ideas and epicly shot and looking stunning but people die from their own idiotic and inlogic behaviour rather than to any external threat. Scientists, the best earth has behaves like teenagers and nos cience is done etc. I rather watch AVPR, cruel death scenes and loved see the alien hive in it etc.
Ridley has the same issue as Lucas where the director have too much power and does whatever he wants, star wars phantom menace was a mess, prometheus was that too and both has same issue: director do whatever he likes and everyone else is yes men.
While in alien it was thanks to: brandon, Giger, Hill, Ridley, and many others who mixed their ideas and a joint operation that made the movie magical. Remove these people and it wouldnt had been anywhere as good.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Feb 14, 2023, 05:43:50 PMThis is a hill I will die on. Prometheus is terri-bad.
Last time I used that phrase it did not end well.
I don't quite understand the vitriol towards Prometheus, but I definitely understand it being disappointing and underwhelming, even though I enjoy it for what it is.
I think it depends on what you look for in a Alien film, and it's interesting to see what people's different takeaways and perspectives are.
Lot of parallels between Scott and Lucas for sure lol
Although I don't quite think it's as bad or worse than Phantom Menace, I see the comparison for sure.
Quote from: judge death on Feb 14, 2023, 07:56:05 PMMaybe he is a bit harsh on prometheus but at the core I agree with it, prometheus is bad as a alien movie, it has no aliens for the first, made the universe way smaller, there is no strange aliens but its like star trek: all life in universe is humanoids...which is boring and lame.
Retconning the space jockey to giant blue humans and its a suit when Giger claimed it to be a fossil and one can tell from its design it wasnt a suit. I hate resurrection but I watch that movie and avp 1 and 2 way more than prometheus.
Im on the same page as this youtuber on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E6NEuTPS_s
Coventant however is great, together with its novelization its amazing :D Novel explains the story more, in the movie one have to watch the details and between the lines that David didnt create xenomorph but his own strain of it, more a protomorph, afteral Ridley said that the derelight is alrerady on LV-426 by the time covenant happens. BGut people love the idea of David creating the xeno although the one in the movie has a very different design, different looking eggs, different evolution stages etc but now I shall not dwelve more into this.
Back on point: Kimahri has a point and I can see how one can argue avpr is better than prometheus, it has the true xenomorph and treats it like it while prometheus is just a mess of a movie, grand ideas and epicly shot and looking stunning but people die from their own idiotic and inlogic behaviour rather than to any external threat. Scientists, the best earth has behaves like teenagers and nos cience is done etc. I rather watch AVPR, cruel death scenes and loved see the alien hive in it etc.
Ridley has the same issue as Lucas where the director have too much power and does whatever he wants, star wars phantom menace was a mess, prometheus was that too and both has same issue: director do whatever he likes and everyone else is yes men.
While in alien it was thanks to: brandon, Giger, Hill, Ridley, and many others who mixed their ideas and a joint operation that made the movie magical. Remove these people and it wouldnt had been anywhere as good.
The Engineers (at least in
Prometheus) are similar to Giger's creepy humanoids and I like that. I'd rather they weren't the Space Jockeys though, but something on the side, though I wouldn't mind connections. In fact, it's obvious that those Giger humanoids weren't the Space Jockey. But they look like a fitting victim to go along with the Facehugger concept art.
(https://i.ibb.co/BqpqJgK/work364.png)
But I like to fantasize that the Alien universe has entities that we haven't seen, and so far
'Scorn' has been great at presenting a biomechanical nightmarish world. I'd love to see something like that in Alien one day.
(https://i.ibb.co/5WJCH5Q/scorn-architecture-cover-1499x999.jpg)
That being said, I don't agree that
Prometheus is inferior to
AVP Requiem, and the rather atrocious xenomorphs of said flick. It may or may not be a little bit better or worse than
Resurrection though, oh! and with the similarities to
AVP and all, I prefer
Prometheus with its epic spirit and cinematography deliberately ignoring its bad characters with the exception of David. Sorry not sorry 😅👉👈
What I do agree with is that if it had been a more collaborative artistic effort like
'Alien', it would have been a better film for sure. Of course, Ridley Scott is no longer a young artist who is just starting out. He's an A director right now, and it's unlikely we'll ever have a perfect storm with him again.
'The Martian' success was because the source material (the novel) was solid enough to not be ruined and instead was enhanced with the Ridley's remarkable direction.
Agree with that, wish we got something like that instead but we didnt and have Space jockey: as engineers and they are blue pal giant humans. The idea that there are space jockeys and engineers are something different is sadly shot down as its made clear engineers are space jockeys and David killed them on their home planet.
After what we seen in comics, the movies and Prometheus and covenant I highly doubt we will see new entities thats not humanoids. Xenomorph will be the only species thats not, the rest thanchurians, engineers, predators all are humanoids, similair to what star trek has done. Which to me is a big let down.
Don't let my opinion on the movie make you feel the need to defend it to me. I've never cared if other people like media I don't, but nobody will EVER get ME to say Prometheus is a good movie. Or a mediocre one. I'll watch TPM a hundred times over Prometheus.
It is a movie (I was going to stop here but thinking back into the movie brought back another hate from the subconscious). A movie so bad that it introduced magic BLACK GOO. A clearly comic book inspired magic formula that adapts to whatever the writer wants it to be, that is now in the franchise as a major plot point that cannot be erased without a reboot that ignores it. It is here. In film. For all to see and cannot be ignored.
This is a marvel comic book add on that wasn't even ripped from marvel, BUT THE ALIENS UNIVERSE OWN EU. Royal Jelly is essentially the same thing, and people KILLED its introduction in the EU, but somehow it just because Scotts name is on it in film, the idea gets a pass. It was terrible both ways, but at least in comic form you could dismiss it as being a comic. On film we have to acknowledge its existence.
Bro, yall are making me rant. This seems like the old GG PFC HUDSON days and his thoughts on Alien 3, lol.
I can feel your anger which leads me to say fair enough😅
But just out of curiosity...is Prometheus part of your physical Alien movie collection?
Kimarhi is in Dynasty Mode today.
Kimarhi, have you tried one of the fancuts of Prometheus?
They changed my tune on the prequels
Look into my eyes
Quote from: SM on Aug 12, 2017, 05:05:41 AMCan't imagine any fan edit that's going to improve it.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 14, 2023, 11:52:30 PMI can feel your anger which leads me to say fair enough😅
But just out of curiosity...is Prometheus part of your physical Alien movie collection?
I do have it. But I usually collect any Alien related thing (that I don't already have) that I see. I still have an Alien novel sitting ten feet away from me that I haven't read and I got it whenever it came out. The one that came out after Charybdis.
I actually don't mind the black goo when used in the EU, afterall it has been around already in the royal jelly, and was metamorphisizing people before it was cool (literally.....see Aliens Colonial Marines comic) but the problem with it on film is that it is MORE DANGEROUS than the Alien. So it basically neutered the Alien even further than it already has been. It regulated the Alien to a side threat.
Quote from: David Weyland on Feb 15, 2023, 12:31:55 AMKimarhi, have you tried one of the fancuts of Prometheus?
They changed my tune on the prequels
Look into my eyes
I can't let a fancut influence how I feel about the canonical version of the film. Even if I did, and it was superior, it further shows PROFESSIONAL filmmaker incompetence. No amateur should come out and release a superior cut of film over paid pros without there being serious questions about the pros effort in the original process.
In short I couldn't watch it because if it was better I would rage even harder against Scott's pack in in and hijack the franchise azz.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Feb 15, 2023, 02:35:08 AMIn short I couldn't watch it because if it was better I would rage even harder against Scott's pack in in and hijack the franchise azz.
I can understand that perspective. There are multiple fan cuts that definitely are better than the theatrical cut, though. It's a shame so much was unused.
Fancuts like the Chaos edition seriously improve Prometheus from what I see as a 6 to an 8
Both movies are very uneven. They have some great moments but also some bad stuff (more good than bad).
6.5/10 Prometheus
7.5/10 Covenant
I prefer Covenant not because is an Alien film (Prometheus is quasi-Alien) but because is better written. I love David's prologue (probably one of the best scenes in Alien series)/epilogue. Covenant's problem is pacing in third act and the third act itself.
Female protagonists in both are unfortunately not very likable. Janek and Tennessee are the real deal.
Holloway, Filfield and Millburn are douchebags. Cynical, immature scientists who behave like have never attended science classes.
Also, they shouldn't have cut opening scene with Elder Engineers and Engineer's monologue with David. Why wouldn't you include those scenes in the movie?
Quote from: Kimarhi on Feb 15, 2023, 02:35:08 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 14, 2023, 11:52:30 PMI can feel your anger which leads me to say fair enough😅
But just out of curiosity...is Prometheus part of your physical Alien movie collection?
I do have it. But I usually collect any Alien related thing (that I don't already have) that I see. I still have an Alien novel sitting ten feet away from me that I haven't read and I got it whenever it came out. The one that came out after Charybdis.
I actually don't mind the black goo when used in the EU, afterall it has been around already in the royal jelly, and was metamorphisizing people before it was cool (literally.....see Aliens Colonial Marines comic) but the problem with it on film is that it is MORE DANGEROUS than the Alien. So it basically neutered the Alien even further than it already has been. It regulated the Alien to a side threat.
I guess the book you mention is
'Aliens: Infiltrator'. According to Hicks' review it is not very good. But what do I know! After all I'm not a very good Alien / Predator collector.👎😅
Oh and yeah, I must admit one of the unwanted side effects of David creating the Alien is that said Alien is more like a de-evolution of black goo...since the Engineers' bioweapon is more effective than the Aliens. It's not like the Alien needs to be a biological weapon at all, but since canon says it's post-pathogen creation and engineered in order to destroy humans...
The comparisons to royal jelly are spot on, but it's also similar to the Alien spores from William Gibson's Alien³.
At first I didn't like David developing the Aliens (and I would be totally cool if it was later revealed he was following anothers formula), but it does kind of fix a slight "plot hole" of the OT. Facehuggers would have a hard time facehugging non humanoid lifeforms. Yeah I know Alien 3 dog/ox but they never showed that facehugger attached because it would be difficult to show it with the way the hugger is designed.
So it avoids the rage for the most part.
The book is the one that immediately follows Charybdis with family members from all over the alien universe looking for what happened. I'm too lazy to go see what it is atm.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Feb 15, 2023, 09:54:38 PMAt first I didn't like David developing the Aliens (and I would be totally cool if it was later revealed he was following anothers formula), but it does kind of fix a slight "plot hole" of the OT. Facehuggers would have a hard time facehugging non humanoid lifeforms. Yeah I know Alien 3 dog/ox but they never showed that facehugger attached because it would be difficult to show it with the way the hugger is designed.
So it avoids the rage for the most part.
The book is the one that immediately follows Charybdis with family members from all over the alien universe looking for what happened. I'm too lazy to go see what it is atm.
Well the alien books like weyland yutani report, survival book etc tell that the facehugger releases a paralysis poison that knocks out the host in a second, so once it has the host knocked out it can attach however it want and we saw how tight those claws of it can hug into flesh and hold in place on the dog or Ox.
Then theres the theory that the facehuggers can adapt to fit its enviroment and hosts so can become bigger or get webbing like the super facehugger to be able to swim etc but its a very loose theory so far.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Feb 14, 2023, 04:54:32 AMPrometheus is an absolute dumpster fire
It does look pretty though, but that's not enough to save a film.
The best thing about PROMETHEUS was its making-of documentary - infinitely more absorbing and entertaining than the film ever was. A shame COVENANT didn't get the same 3+ hour documentary.
I wish Ridley Scott had 'rested on his laurels' when it came to the ALIEN films. The original is a classic / masterpiece and can't be beaten (imo).
Quote from: Kimarhi on Feb 15, 2023, 02:35:08 AMI actually don't mind the black goo when used in the EU, afterall it has been around already in the royal jelly, and was metamorphisizing people before it was cool (literally.....see Aliens Colonial Marines comic) but the problem with it on film is that it is MORE DANGEROUS than the Alien. So it basically neutered the Alien even further than it already has been. It regulated the Alien to a side threat.
Yeah, I don't like that, too. And I feel like they were gonna lead up to David having something to do with the eggs on Lv-426. It looked like that Engineer in Prometheus was just gonna drop a load of black goo on earth.
I definitely agree with the point of the black goo being more dangerous than the Alien, and therefore kinda sidelining it.
But honestly I never had a problem with it otherwise. It's definitely used as a convenience item for writers a lot. But I forgive it, for the possibilities it adds, and expansion to the xeno/alien roster that it provides. I'm talking more so the creatures rather than the zombies (not really a fan of the Fifield zombie, other than the alternate version where they make him look slighty xeno-like, with the longer head). I personally always felt that the expansion on the xenomorph felt pretty stagnant. People either just made the same old drone/runner/warrior, or just made a xenomorph with slightly different traits of animals it spawned from, or just made them the same old design but a different color (they're xenos, but RED. how creative).
So I really appreciate the additions to the roster that the black goo has provided with the trilobite, hammerpede, deacon, neomorph, etc. And overall I feel that it offers more opportunities for creature diversity apart from the classic xenomorph lifecycle. Which is something I've personally always wanted to see in the series.
Not saying it's a perfect plot-device, but I've mostly enjoyed what it's provided to the series.
Quote from: PsyKore on Feb 16, 2023, 08:30:40 AMQuote from: Kimarhi on Feb 15, 2023, 02:35:08 AMI actually don't mind the black goo when used in the EU, afterall it has been around already in the royal jelly, and was metamorphisizing people before it was cool (literally.....see Aliens Colonial Marines comic) but the problem with it on film is that it is MORE DANGEROUS than the Alien. So it basically neutered the Alien even further than it already has been. It regulated the Alien to a side threat.
Yeah, I don't like that, too. And I feel like they were gonna lead up to David having something to do with the eggs on Lv-426. It looked like that Engineer in Prometheus was just gonna drop a load of black goo on earth.
This was my hypothesis as well.
This is why I hate when they try to go back and turn over every single story plot point in films. WHO CARES that David found the SJ ship and crashed it on lv426 by loosing the Aliens on the ship (or some other action......maybe the SJ stole the eggs and crashed after it broke containment, still doesnt' matter)? It doesn't matter because that plot point is a dead one. It leads nowhere past the OT and Res.
You could have the whole lame, well on the other side of the galaxy, there were some eggs sent out, and the Aliens got out and did some crazy shit............but were eventually stopped at the goal line again before they spread. We know they couldn't be that big of an event because Res scientist wouldn't have had to clone Ripley to get them. Using such a plot point AGAIN stops them from being any sort of menace or a true threat.
They've actually wrote themselves into a hole here. The Alien is deadlocked to what it can do. You can wait and have ARes era characters play around with new xenos somewhere (which would seem to be unpopular because the Ares era is an unpopular one), you can limit the "event" that sees them running around next time because of Ares, or you can start ignoring movies, which is childish imo. And I don't care for ARes at all, but it just seems kind of petty and uncreative.
OR you could make the black goo the threat.
Prometheus just opened up a whole can of worms of dumb.
Both are a mess in their own ways, but I'd rank Prometheus higher as it offers more eye candy and leaves some interesting options for a sequel:
Prometheus 4/10
Alien Covenant 3/10
These are considering they are a part of the Alien franchise, if these weren't related to Alien any way and viewed through a modern day sci-fi cinema lens, I'd put it as follows:
Prometheus 5.5/10
Alien Covenant 5/10
I like Prometheus a bit more, due to its epicness and novelty.
However, I thought the Alien: Covenant novelization was great and improved much over the movie.
I'd do Prometheus a 4/10 and Covenant a 6. Covenant is worse in that it had to follow Prometheus. But it also suffers from the vibe that Scott did not want to make that movie and just kind of phoned it in. I was bored watching parts of Covenant, and I think Ridley was bored doing the whole movie.
If only RBW had been offered to him sooner, I think a more grounded take would've been on the table then. The idea is the minor problem of the movie (I will never like current writers hell bent motivation of wanting to explain EVERY single plot point in prequels/sequels), it is 90 percent to me the execution of it. It is just goofy and sloppy as hell.
I rate AvP and AvPR pretty low as well, but they are f**king VS movies. Unless they handed Randy Stradley the reigns and said bring in your director, clean up your script, and go for it, it was always going to be mediocre. It was like watching a live version of the later comics. It was pretty much exactly what I expected, and about the limit of how good I thought it could be as a studio mandated production.
It wasn't Prometheus, with OG Director coming back dropping an absolute beastly trailer teasing new mysteries in the Alienverse and then fumbling the football before the play even started. I had to legitimately rewind in my brain a serious movie telling me they got star coordinates off of a f**king cave painting.
Yeah that.. ☝😅
One is an Alien movie.
One is a movie set in the Alien Universe.
Covenant is my choice.
The both of them sure are movies
Prometheus
Prometheus, although it's agonising to watch or think about, as it's a colossal missed opportunity: Change of tack for the series to delve into the Space Jockey race, themes of creation and (to an extent) AI, teasing on the possible origins of the alien (which I would have preferred as an engineered hybrid of about four horrific natural organisms with each possessing a different characteristic of the Xenomorph product).
Love the ampules and the idea of the black liquid being a combination of the transparent 'DNA-catabolic' liquid we saw in the opening scene and Xenomorph DNA stolen, like fire, by the Engineers from the mysterious true Space Jockey race in some indirect way. Upon activation, the ample acts as a cocktail mixer, combining these two ingredients similarly to the analogy of David shaking the cocktail mixer earlier. And the unwitting host being the third 'ingredient' to help produce something resembling a facehugger, or mutate them horrifically, depending on ingestion or bodily exposure.
Would also have liked to have seen David respond to Weyland with a micro-expression of smirk: 'I'm paraphrasing, I'm afraid, Sir; however, roughly-translated, he says his people made you because they could'.
The film feels about half-complete to me with respect to ideas and no fully-clear direction. Is it good enough to simply *say* 'where we did we come from?', rather than *ask*, as well as provide meaningful thought beyond 'science is what I believe it to be'?. Not certain.
Never thought about the cocktail shaking before, nice connection. I like both and they have many great elements, many not so great, but I'll take Ridley taking big swings over most drek released these days.
Alien Covenant always. I still can't forget the feeling of deception when I saw Prometheus the first time. Covenant for other hand I really love it. Even the last week I introduced the Alien franchise to my girlfriend, we saw Alien, Aliens and Covenant and she really loved Covenant and Aliens (with Alien she kinda fall asleep)
Quote from: aliens13 on Apr 29, 2023, 04:27:15 AM(with Alien she kinda fall asleep)
I understand this happens with some people, especially nowadays, but it still makes my heart sink... :'(
Quote from: PsyKore on May 24, 2023, 11:15:15 AMQuote from: aliens13 on Apr 29, 2023, 04:27:15 AM(with Alien she kinda fall asleep)
I understand this happens with some people, especially nowadays, but it still makes my heart sink... :'(
Yeah, it's kind of a bummer on two levels: one, because the pace is just too slow for a lot of people these days; they need their jump-scares and quick cuts. And two, because the film has just been imitated so many times, visually, that everybody's already seen this 'kind' of thing before. So getting to see the Real McCoy is no big deal. Most of modern sci-fi looks like Alien, whereas back in '79, it was all utterly new.
Quote from: PsyKore on May 24, 2023, 11:15:15 AMQuote from: aliens13 on Apr 29, 2023, 04:27:15 AM(with Alien she kinda fall asleep)
I understand this happens with some people, especially nowadays, but it still makes my heart sink... :'(
Me too, specially because Alien for me it's the perfect film and I love it so much that I never felt it slow even when I was a child. But, well... She likes MCU movies so there you go 😅
ALIEN is definitely what I would call a slow burn. I would try to get friends and family to watch it and they would get bored, and that was back in the 90's.
I get it though, if you don't like slow burn flicks then it may not be up your alley. Personally I don't mind if a movie is slow so long as the payoff is worth it.
When I saw Alien in the cinema the other day it was with a friend who had never seen it. He said it was good but very slow.
To be fair there are bits of the movie that are obnoxiously slow. The interminable track through the informary before Ripley talks to Ash has no business being that long.
Respectfully disagree. The feeling of being isolated in that ship is not achieved if we just briskly whiz from event to event.
Did I say anything about briskly whizzing from event to event?
Overall the slow pace is good. Some sections, small as they may be, don't add anything but runtime.
Cutting the 15s off Ash walking out of the infirmary after talking to Ripley hardly whizzes us anywhere. But it does cut redundant information.
That track in the infirmary is definitely weird. For me, the length is not the problem, it's just badly thought out.
I think Scott wanted to do one of those b-movie horror cliches where the axe murderer spys on the teen girl alone at the campfire, only we never actually see the axe murderer - instead, the camera acts as his POV. So the threat is implied only.
But it just doesn't work for Scott because we see the only danger - the facehugger - right there at the start of the shot and it's still attached to Kane's face. So something else is creeping up on Ash, but the story hasn't established any other threat so we don't feel like he's in danger anyway.
Apart from the problem that we know perfectly well there is no axe murderer wandering the ship, we also don't see Ash (the target of the implied threat) until the very end of the track, so there's no rising tension as the POV gets closer and closer to him. Instead, for some reason, Scott decided to frame the lead-up of the track at a whole lot of infirmary wall. Huh?
In the end, it seems that the whole protracted build-up was to create a jump scare when Ripley steps into frame. Indeed, Ash does jump (he'll get her back later on when she's in the MUTHUR room), but I've never known anyone in an audience to ever jump. So all that effort for nothing.
TC
That's why the length is a problem. If it served a purpose it would be fine, but it's kind of just ... there.
Quote from: TC on May 27, 2023, 04:15:33 PMThat track in the infirmary is definitely weird. For me, the length is not the problem, it's just badly thought out.
I think Scott wanted to do one of those b-movie horror cliches where the axe murderer spys on the teen girl alone at the campfire, only we never actually see the axe murderer - instead, the camera acts as his POV. So the threat is implied only.
But it just doesn't work for Scott because we see the only danger - the facehugger - right there at the start of the shot and it's still attached to Kane's face. So something else is creeping up on Ash, but the story hasn't established any other threat so we don't feel like he's in danger anyway.
Apart from the problem that we know perfectly well there is no axe murderer wandering the ship, we also don't see Ash (the target of the implied threat) until the very end of the track, so there's no rising tension as the POV gets closer and closer to him. Instead, for some reason, Scott decided to frame the lead-up of the track at a whole lot of infirmary wall. Huh?
In the end, it seems that the whole protracted build-up was to create a jump scare when Ripley steps into frame. Indeed, Ash does jump (he'll get her back later on when she's in the MUTHUR room), but I've never known anyone in an audience to ever jump. So all that effort for nothing.
TC
I've always read it as a way to add mystery around Ash's character and the organism and to build up to Ripley and Ash's inevitable confrontation (set up by the close ups of their faces and events earlier). I never got startled and I don't think Ash was either, he's just good at mimicking.
I used to think the dolly-in was supposed to lull us into a false sense of security (because we're shown that there's no source of danger in the room) so that the jump-scare would be more effective. But Scott could have done that with a static wide shot of the infirmary, Kane and facehugger in the FG, Ash in the BG, and the floor area in-between completely clear of anyone sneaking up on him. No weird dolly shot of the wall necessary.
Quote from: caffeine4671 on Jun 10, 2023, 08:46:17 PMI've always read it as a way to add mystery around Ash's character and the organism and to build up to Ripley and Ash's inevitable confrontation (set up by the close ups of their faces
In this scene Ripley and Ash have their next confrontation, and this time Scott blocks the scene without the two even being face to face. (See the end of the clip)
It works for Ash's character because with his back to Ripley he looks all the more deceitful, but it gives Sigourney the tough job confronting Ash while being unable to look him in the eye.
Actually, this scene is a clusterf**k of problems. The clues are here that Scott wanted to post-dub a change of dialogue from what was shot, so to avoid lip-sync problems they had to choose a shot they could dub over that wouldn't show Sigourney's mouth, which means she delivers an intense confrontational moment and we, the audience, don't get to see her acting while she does it (just a little tuft of her hair in the corner of frame). This is not the way to earn your leading actress a Best Acting Oscar nomination.
But Sigourney is a trooper and plays most of the scene while facing the camera, not Kotto and Holm who are behind her. The scene is about her confronting them and wresting control of the situation, but she can't face both them and the camera at the same time, not with the blocking Scott gave her. It makes for an interesting scene, but I wonder if the real reason is that Scott didn't want to take the time to shoot a reverse angle on Sigourney so decided to cover the entire scene from one side. If they were running short on schedule that would also explain why the sync audio is so poor: people are talking off-mike all over the place.
TC
I like the dolly shot but can't really explain why... 😂 Just something unsettling about it.
She doesn't need to face either of them for us to understand the shift in power dynamic.
The scene starts with Parker large and dominant in frame, then has him turned to almost nothing when Ripley takes control.
There is an obvious dubbing fix, but it's not the most egregious solution. As an editor it's quite neat how they turned the scene from Ripley requesting Ash pick up his game when talking to Mother, to her taking control, considering there was a major set piece planned between these events originally.
And people aren't off mic. Off camera, sure, but the dubbing is, if anything, too on-mic for the blocking.
Quote from: aliens13 on Apr 29, 2023, 04:27:15 AM(with Alien she kinda fall asleep)
Should've flying elbow dropped.
Prometheus. It's a film I rate very highly despite its flaws. I still enjoy it immensely. It feels like the first Alien film with a strong idea of what exactly it wants to be since ALIENS.
(Digression: what I mean by this is that ALIEN is a haunted house in space; ALIENS is a war film. Prometheus is an archaeological sci-fi/lovecraft story. Alien 3 is ... ? Alien: Resurrection is ... ? Covenant is ... ? The only answer I have for those is "an alien film" which feels unsatisfactory and, while those films rightly have their fans, it points to a possible source of the flaws in those films).
There's a lot to like about Covenenant, but it's not its own thing. It's part of a larger story and rather than adding depth, this weakens it considerably. I found some parts sour and unpalatable (no Shaw, David creating the xenomorphs) and unconsidered (absurdly short incubation times) and a lost opportunity (show us a harrowing, strange and alien Engineer society and world, not Ancient Rome Post Holocaust).
I'm happy the poll sits at around 44% for Prometheus; it's not quite 50% but it flies in the face of the rather savage beating it got in the rather sad 10 Year Anniverary podcast last year. It clearly has some fans out there.
Quote from: NecronomIV on Jul 02, 2023, 01:14:50 PMCovenant is ... ?
Gothic sci-fi/horror creation myth, a la
Frankenstein. I'd say it feels very sure of itself in forging that particular identity.
Alien Covenant's in my opinion much more sure of itself (largely due to John Logan's contributions) than Prometheus. I don't see how that's even a question.
Prometheus once upon a time was a very solid story, Alien: Engineers, they literally could not decide whether it should be an Alien film or not and brought on Damon Lindelof with the express intent to muddle and make things ambiguous sabotaging any logic in the script in the process.
Quote from: NecronomIV on Jul 02, 2023, 01:14:50 PMI'm happy the poll sits at around 44% for Prometheus; it's not quite 50% but it flies in the face of the rather savage beating it got in the rather sad 10 Year Anniverary podcast last year. It clearly has some fans out there.
I don't think it was
that savage ;D
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Jul 02, 2023, 06:00:32 PMDavid Lindelof
He nailed Damon Fassbender's character though
I'm glad we have both films -- I think everything after 3 and prior to Prometheus had fallen far away from the core aesthetic and philosophy and potential in the ideas of those first three films. I just wish a few edges could have been sanded off them first.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 24, 2023, 09:58:58 AMShe doesn't need to face either of them for us to understand the shift in power dynamic.
...
True. But it's always good to make your scene work on multiple levels.
In terms of story, as you've stated, we understand the plot point being made. In terms of character, we get that Ripley is not to be f**ked with. But in terms of emotion, I think the blocking fails to make the most of the conflict between Ripley/Parker and Ripley/Ash.
BUT the blocking does give us something else!
According to me (i.e. mere speculation on my part) Sigourney has been told to keep turned to the camera (apart from a short glimpse at Parker) because we need to see her face. So while confronting Parker and disciplining him with her words
she fixes her eyes on Lambert. That's weird isn't it? It IS weird, but also kind of brilliant.
This is the acting choice Sigourney made: In that one section of dialogue she simultaneously puts Parker in his place AND reassures Lambert that she's following a plan and everything is under control. It's a tricky delivery, in a single beat Sigourney has to be both stern and commanding, yet show compassion towards Lambert.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 24, 2023, 09:58:58 AM...
And people aren't off mic. Off camera, sure, but the dubbing is, if anything, too on-mic for the blocking.
What I hear is the typical mess you get when trying to edit a conversation together from actors who overlap their dialogue. What you get is sound leakage from the offscreen actor into the onscreen actor's shot, and no way to separate the dialogue lines into their own individual tracks so they can be given a uniform presence (which is what you want in a close conversation). In the end the only solution for this scene was ADR, which they clearly didn't do.
TC
The blocking makes the most of making it very clear Ripley is now in charge. She's larger than all of the other characters, she's confident. Ash has shrunk away, back to everyone, a bit suss. Parker is anxiously pacing. Ripley's in control.
Every time there's some sort of challenge to her leadership it's squashed quickly and decisively. There are no big confrontations. I think the scene does what it sets out to quite well.
QuoteIn the end the only solution for this scene was ADR, which they clearly didn't do.
I mean, they clearly did given most of the dialogue in the scene is not what was written or shot. Ripley and Ash's dialogue is completely done in post.