What's Wrong With AvP?

[Russ]

I think that he's great visually, but like many directors (NB for instance) he prefers to write his own stuff. I guess because it means less compromise - but I'm not sure that he's a brilliant writer.  However - when the stuff he's writing is making a tonne of money... its hard to find a case for NOT letting him write.

[SiL]

But the fingerprints are there.

Sure, but how does that stop the pacing being bad? People say the pacing is bad because the pacing for the film is bad -- it really doesn't matter than other films in the series had slow builds, it wasn't appropriate for the runtime Anderson had.

[SM]

The build-up in Alien and Aliens is you find interesting stuff out along with the characters.  There's tension in hiking across the planet or investigating the colony, there's revelations in terms of the Jockey or facehuggers, etc. etc.  You know something is going to happen - you're just not sure when and how.

In AvP the location is somewhat engaging, but the characters aren't.  And the cutting away to the Aliens and Predators, drains the tension out of it.

[Russ]

But the fingerprints are there.

Sure, but how does that stop the pacing being bad? People say the pacing is bad because the pacing for the film is bad -- it really doesn't matter than other films in the series had slow builds, it wasn't appropriate for the runtime Anderson had.

As I say, it's better in the director's cut, but I think the point was he was trying to get it right. Didn't wholly succeed as you say.

The build-up in Alien and Aliens is you find interesting stuff out along with the characters.  There's tension in hiking across the planet or investigating the colony, there's revelations in terms of the Jockey or facehuggers, etc. etc.  You know something is going to happen - you're just not sure when and how.

In AvP the location is somewhat engaging, but the characters aren't.  And the cutting away to the Aliens and Predators, drains the tension out of it.

I dunno, I liked all the Chariots of the Gods stuff - but the execution was a bit cack-handed. The Italian bloke sussed out the language pretty quickly, didn't he. But that was great stuff, akin to finding out about facehuggers etc as you say above. Note akin - not "the same" or "as good as."

I think with cutting away to Aliens and Predators... well, it's AvP. I'm pretty sure that whatever script the producer's got, the first thing they would have said is "It needs more Aliens and Predators."

As I say above - this isn't a great movie, it has some flaws. But I have to give it A+ for effort. Pacing is out - sure, but WS was trying and (certainly in the theatrical cut) failing to mimic that style (he even has the nodding duck).

Funny enough, I was reading the Briggs script on the way up to London today, I'm 33 pages in. It's pretty good - from what I remember, it's really similar to one of the comics.

[SiL]

As I say, it's better in the director's cut, but I think the point was he was trying to get it right. Didn't wholly succeed as you say.

My point is it doesn't work and it's not hard to see that it doesn't work. Brownie points for trying, sure, but saying the pacing is off is still a valid criticism.

[SM]

I think with cutting away to Aliens and Predators... well, it's AvP. I'm pretty sure that whatever script the producer's got, the first thing they would have said is "It needs more Aliens and Predators."

Then they should've got to the versing quicker.  The title implies conflict, which ends up with 2 fights totalling maybe 8 minutes.

Funny enough, I was reading the Briggs script on the way up to London today, I'm 33 pages in. It's pretty good - from what I remember, it's really similar to one of the comics.

It's an adaptation of the first comic series.

In regards to the effort - I'm sure the Strauses tried to make a good movie too.

[Alionic]

Look, I'm not saying its a great film, but its not "really shit" or "an abomination" or anything like that.

No, I agree, just putting in my two cents.

I used to hate it, but I don't mind it now as a piece of trashy entertainment. It has a few really good elements amongst the bad. One thing I do credit is the fact that Anderson made a very good-looking film (crappy Predator design aside) given his tight budget.

I agree. Everything but the Predator design was top notch. Now, imagine this part fixed along with the proper amount of gore and a tight script. It would have ended up as a sci-fi classic IMO.

[SM]

So - 'imagine if it was really good, then it would've been really good'?

[Alionic]

So - 'imagine if it was really good, then it would've been really good'?

Yeah, sometimes I do this with Star Wars prequels as well. The missed opportunities...

[Scorpio]

On pacing... well, this is precisely how "Aliens" rolled out. Nothing happens for 40 minutes or so, just a lot of chat and build up.

The biggest difference -- besides the quality of the writing -- is that AvP builds for full two thirds of its runtime, then ends half an hour later. It's 55 minutes when Grid and Celtic start their fight and 85 minutes when the closing credits roll. Aliens builds for an hour, but then has another 75 minutes before the close.

Same with Alien; the burster pops about 45 minutes in and the film ends over an hour later.

Slow builds are fine, but AvP spends more time delaying getting to the good stuff than it actually spends on the good stuff, which makes it feel very poorly paced.

If that's all you're watching the film for, is just the title fight.  May as well go watch a wrestling match.

[SiL]

Yeah, that's not what I said at all.

[SM]

It's not about 'the title fight'.  It's about balance.  If you're going to have over 50 minutes of build up to the first fight, you need a pay off.  AvP had a down payment on the payoff with a 3 minute fight, but then effectively defaulted on the remainder, apart from another 3.5 minutes of Queen fight.  The first fight should've been a taste of bigger and better to come.  Instead it was the highlight.

Aliens had the slow build, but by contrast had a 5 minute action sequence in the hive, then slowed down again, then had a continuous series of action sequences that went for 40 minutes.

[Scorpio]

You don't think the Queen fight was "bigger and better"? 

[SM]

No.

The first fight has some elegance to it in that there's punch and counter punch.  Alien tries to stab the Predator with its tail, Predator cuts of tail, Alien flings acid etc.  There's some balance.

The Queen fight has a money shot with Scar doing the spinny stuff in the air, but other than that it's pretty average.  And the Queen doesn't move like it has any weight like the original Queen did.

[Mister Skeezler]

Agreed. And the full-on sprinting Queen, who had been frozen and immobilized for hundreds—if not thousands—of years, was a bit ridiculous too.

The '86 Queen moved like a creature that had been immobilized for some time, but was willing herself through rage and hatred. The AVP Queen looked like she was at peak physical performance. It just felt like another of Anderson's cheap "moarr awesomeness!" moves.