Favourite film: Prometheus or Alien: Covenant

[TC]

That track in the infirmary is definitely weird. For me, the length is not the problem, it's just badly thought out.

I think Scott wanted to do one of those b-movie horror cliches where the axe murderer spys on the teen girl alone at the campfire, only we never actually see the axe murderer - instead, the camera acts as his POV. So the threat is implied only.

But it just doesn't work for Scott because we see the only danger - the facehugger - right there at the start of the shot and it's still attached to Kane's face. So something else is creeping up on Ash, but the story hasn't established any other threat so we don't feel like he's in danger anyway.

Apart from the problem that we know perfectly well there is no axe murderer wandering the ship, we also don't see Ash (the target of the implied threat) until the very end of the track, so there's no rising tension as the POV gets closer and closer to him. Instead, for some reason, Scott decided to frame the lead-up of the track at a whole lot of infirmary wall. Huh?

In the end, it seems that the whole protracted build-up was to create a jump scare when Ripley steps into frame. Indeed, Ash does jump (he'll get her back later on when she's in the MUTHUR room), but I've never known anyone in an audience to ever jump. So all that effort for nothing.

TC

[SiL]

That's why the length is a problem. If it served a purpose it would be fine, but it's kind of just ... there.

[Eal]

That track in the infirmary is definitely weird. For me, the length is not the problem, it's just badly thought out.

I think Scott wanted to do one of those b-movie horror cliches where the axe murderer spys on the teen girl alone at the campfire, only we never actually see the axe murderer - instead, the camera acts as his POV. So the threat is implied only.

But it just doesn't work for Scott because we see the only danger - the facehugger - right there at the start of the shot and it's still attached to Kane's face. So something else is creeping up on Ash, but the story hasn't established any other threat so we don't feel like he's in danger anyway.

Apart from the problem that we know perfectly well there is no axe murderer wandering the ship, we also don't see Ash (the target of the implied threat) until the very end of the track, so there's no rising tension as the POV gets closer and closer to him. Instead, for some reason, Scott decided to frame the lead-up of the track at a whole lot of infirmary wall. Huh?

In the end, it seems that the whole protracted build-up was to create a jump scare when Ripley steps into frame. Indeed, Ash does jump (he'll get her back later on when she's in the MUTHUR room), but I've never known anyone in an audience to ever jump. So all that effort for nothing.

TC

I've always read it as a way to add mystery around Ash's character and the organism and to build up to Ripley and Ash's inevitable confrontation (set up by the close ups of their faces and events earlier). I never got startled and I don't think Ash was either, he's just good at mimicking.

[TC]

I used to think the dolly-in was supposed to lull us into a false sense of security (because we're shown that there's no source of danger in the room) so that the jump-scare would be more effective. But Scott could have done that with a static wide shot of the infirmary, Kane and facehugger in the FG, Ash in the BG, and the floor area in-between completely clear of anyone sneaking up on him. No weird dolly shot of the wall necessary.

I've always read it as a way to add mystery around Ash's character and the organism and to build up to Ripley and Ash's inevitable confrontation (set up by the close ups of their faces

In this scene Ripley and Ash have their next confrontation, and this time Scott blocks the scene without the two even being face to face. (See the end of the clip)

It works for Ash's character because with his back to Ripley he looks all the more deceitful, but it gives Sigourney the tough job confronting Ash while being unable to look him in the eye.

Actually, this scene is a clusterf**k of problems. The clues are here that Scott wanted to post-dub a change of dialogue from what was shot, so to avoid lip-sync problems they had to choose a shot they could dub over that wouldn't show Sigourney's mouth, which means she delivers an intense confrontational moment and we, the audience, don't get to see her acting while she does it (just a little tuft of her hair in the corner of frame). This is not the way to earn your leading actress a Best Acting Oscar nomination.

But Sigourney is a trooper and plays most of the scene while facing the camera, not Kotto and Holm who are behind her. The scene is about her confronting them and wresting control of the situation, but she can't face both them and the camera at the same time, not with the blocking Scott gave her. It makes for an interesting scene, but I wonder if the real reason is that Scott didn't want to take the time to shoot a reverse angle on Sigourney so decided to cover the entire scene from one side. If they were running short on schedule that would also explain why the sync audio is so poor: people are talking off-mike all over the place.

TC

[Necronomicon II]

I like the dolly shot but can't really explain why... 😂 Just something unsettling about it.

[SiL]

She doesn't need to face either of them for us to understand the shift in power dynamic.

The scene starts with Parker large and dominant in frame, then has him turned to almost nothing when Ripley takes control.

There is an obvious dubbing fix, but it's not the most egregious solution. As an editor it's quite neat how they turned the scene from Ripley requesting Ash pick up his game when talking to Mother, to her taking control, considering there was a major set piece planned between these events originally.

And people aren't off mic. Off camera, sure, but the dubbing is, if anything, too on-mic for the blocking.

[Kimarhi]

(with Alien she kinda fall asleep)

Should've flying elbow dropped. 

[NecronomIV]

Prometheus. It's a film I rate very highly despite its flaws. I still enjoy it immensely. It feels like the first Alien film with a strong idea of what exactly it wants to be since ALIENS.

(Digression: what I mean by this is that ALIEN is a haunted house in space; ALIENS is a war film. Prometheus is an archaeological sci-fi/lovecraft story. Alien 3 is ... ? Alien: Resurrection is ... ? Covenant is ... ? The only answer I have for those is "an alien film" which feels unsatisfactory and, while those films rightly have their fans, it points to a possible source of the flaws in those films).

There's a lot to like about Covenenant, but it's not its own thing. It's part of a larger story and rather than adding depth, this weakens it considerably. I found some parts sour and unpalatable (no Shaw, David creating the xenomorphs) and unconsidered (absurdly short incubation times) and a lost opportunity (show us a harrowing, strange and alien Engineer society and world, not Ancient Rome Post Holocaust).

I'm happy the poll sits at around 44% for Prometheus; it's not quite 50% but it flies in the face of the rather savage beating it got in the rather sad 10 Year Anniverary podcast last year. It clearly has some fans out there.

[Nightmare Asylum]

Covenant is ... ?

Gothic sci-fi/horror creation myth, a la Frankenstein. I'd say it feels very sure of itself in forging that particular identity.

[BlueMarsalis79]

Alien Covenant's in my opinion much more sure of itself (largely due to John Logan's contributions) than Prometheus. I don't see how that's even a question.

Prometheus once upon a time was a very solid story, Alien: Engineers, they literally could not decide whether it should be an Alien film or not and brought on Damon Lindelof with the express intent to muddle and make things ambiguous sabotaging any logic in the script in the process.

[Kradan]

I'm happy the poll sits at around 44% for Prometheus; it's not quite 50% but it flies in the face of the rather savage beating it got in the rather sad 10 Year Anniverary podcast last year. It clearly has some fans out there.

I don't think it was that savage 

David Lindelof

He nailed Damon Fassbender's character though

[NecronomIV]

I'm glad we have both films -- I think everything after 3 and prior to Prometheus had fallen far away from the core aesthetic and philosophy and potential in the ideas of those first three films. I just wish a few edges could have been sanded off them first.
 

[TC]

She doesn't need to face either of them for us to understand the shift in power dynamic.
...

True. But it's always good to make your scene work on multiple levels.

In terms of story, as you've stated, we understand the plot point being made. In terms of character, we get that Ripley is not to be f**ked with. But in terms of emotion, I think the blocking fails to make the most of the conflict between Ripley/Parker and Ripley/Ash.

BUT the blocking does give us something else!

According to me (i.e. mere speculation on my part) Sigourney has been told to keep turned to the camera (apart from a short glimpse at Parker) because we need to see her face. So while confronting Parker and disciplining him with her words she fixes her eyes on Lambert. That's weird isn't it? It IS weird, but also kind of brilliant.

This is the acting choice Sigourney made: In that one section of dialogue she simultaneously puts Parker in his place AND reassures Lambert that she's following a plan and everything is under control. It's a tricky delivery, in a single beat Sigourney has to be both stern and commanding, yet show compassion towards Lambert.

...
And people aren't off mic. Off camera, sure, but the dubbing is, if anything, too on-mic for the blocking.

What I hear is the typical mess you get when trying to edit a conversation together from actors who overlap their dialogue. What you get is sound leakage from the offscreen actor into the onscreen actor's shot, and no way to separate the dialogue lines into their own individual tracks so they can be given a uniform presence (which is what you want in a close conversation). In the end the only solution for this scene was ADR, which they clearly didn't do.

TC

[SiL]

The blocking makes the most of making it very clear Ripley is now in charge. She's larger than all of the other characters, she's confident. Ash has shrunk away, back to everyone, a bit suss. Parker is anxiously pacing. Ripley's in control.

Every time there's some sort of challenge to her leadership it's squashed quickly and decisively. There are no big confrontations. I think the scene does what it sets out to quite well.

In the end the only solution for this scene was ADR, which they clearly didn't do.

I mean, they clearly did given most of the dialogue in the scene is not what was written or shot. Ripley and Ash's dialogue is completely done in post.