Poll
Question:
Who is the Greater Trophy Hunter?
Option 1: Jungle Hunter (Predator)
votes: 8
Option 2: City Hunter (Predator 2)
votes: 6
Time for the Moment of Truth.. who is the Greater Trophy Hunter?
(https://scontent.fzty3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/fr/cp0/e15/q65/215551228_333542971594199_1077655123756745893_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=W45yylN-r0gAX9UbdAw&_nc_ht=scontent.fzty3-2.fna&tp=14&oh=a873a060344acb79d23c6156a4473ef7&oe=60ECFC32)
Jungle Hunter
Stats:
Weapons:
Plasmacaster
Duo Wrist Blade/ Gauntlet Knives
Enemy: Elite Commandos
Pros: Faces Dutch (Arnold) one on one. Successfully self destructs. Only use gauntlet knives and fist when not using Plasmacaster.
Cons: Kills most of his prey from afar, only killing Shane Black without using a Plasmacastee. He tries to kill Dutch many times with the Plasmacaster when Dutch has no rifles or explosives left.
City Hunter
Stats:
Weapons:
Plasmacaster
Duo Wrist Blades/ Gauntlet Knives
Combistick
Smartdisc
Harpoon Scorpion Blade Wrist launcher
Net Gun
Pros: Kills dozens upon dozens of drug lords, armed commuters, cops, and etc at close range. Hardly uses Plasmacaster.
Cons: He doesn't successfully self destruct. Loses his arm and dies from his own Smartdisc that Mike stole from him.
Its a tough call, both are opposites. City Hunter isn't facing Elite Commando Special Forces, but he compensates for this by not relying on his Plasmacaster and getting up close and fighting with bladed weapons. The Jungle Hunter diminishes the glory of his trophies by killing most of the Commandos from afar with the Plasmacaster.
Jungle is distance killer, City is close killer.
Who is Greater Trophy Hunter? Vote.
City Hunter
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 09, 2021, 12:53:51 AM
Its a tough call, both are opposites. City Hunter isn't facing Elite Commando Special Forces, but he compensates for this by not relying on his Plasmacaster and getting up close and fighting with bladed weapons. The Jungle Hunter diminishes the glory of his trophies by killing most of the Commandos from afar with the Plasmacaster.
Jungle is distance killer, City is close killer.
Who is Greater Trophy Hunter? Vote.
Huh, never thought of it that way. Good observation
Jungle Hunter. He's more of a hunter, stalking his prey, disabling them, keeping himself hidden and safe.
City Hunter is reckless and needlessly endangers himself repeatedly.
In the terms of being the "Greater Trophy Hunter", I'll give it to City Hunter, because he's so damn ballsy... plus he took a hell of a licking, but kept on ticking!
(https://media.tenor.com/images/36f135b9522fbe8d47ee5202ab99e528/tenor.gif)
Quote from: SiL on Jul 09, 2021, 06:49:58 AM
Jungle Hunter. He's more of a hunter, stalking his prey, disabling them, keeping himself hidden and safe.
City Hunter is reckless and needlessly endangers himself repeatedly.
Your first paragraph has great merit. What does a good hunter do? Kill its prey with minimal danger to itself, like a lion that goes for juglar of a horned prey.
That being said, Trophy Hunting is very different. It is the aim of killing something not for food but for glory and perhaps its properties, like an elephant for its ivory. So City Hunter is definately collecting trophies, I mean the volume of kills is staggering in Predator 2.
If the films indicated the Yautja/ Predators need human meat to survive, that we are their venison, then Jungle Hunter is the wiser hunter, but both Predator and Predator 2 make it clear its trophy hunting, they are collecting our skulls which is involved in their honor culture of proving themselves.
City Hunter collects way more skulls than Jungle Hunter.
Is City Hunter's style reckless? I'd say no, he wants to make the killing more honorable, and this brings up something I ruminated on; the Predators have invented the only means of using bladed weapons in a modern world full of guns. If either Jungle or City were to charge enemies without their cloaking device, they'd end up like City Hunter, full of lower torso holes or worse. The Cameo flag allows them to get close enough to use a sword, spear, knife and etc. This is ingenious, it allows the way of the Samurai or Knight to survive in modern times, to be able to get close enough to use a melee weapon on someone packing a gun. At first I thought it was Shinobi inspired, cloak and dagger, but now I see its the only practical way to allow dueling and killing with blades in a world with modern weapons.
QuoteCity Hunter collects way more skulls than Jungle Hunter.
We see him take exactly one more skull. Jungle Hunter takes Billy's, City Hunter takes King Willie and Lambert's.
If you look at it as a ratio of kills to trophies taken, Jungle Hunter takes the cake. City Hunter slaughters a lot of "unworthy" opponents before getting to anything worthwhile.
(I'm only going by skulls we see taken during the film; we see Jungle Hunter has three skulls, and there are three human skulls in the trophy cabinet at the end of P2. Even if City Hunter got Lambert's skull in place, he's still only one up.)
EDIT
Man, now I'm thinking about kill to skull ratios.
We can reasonably assume the skulls Jungle Hunter has on him are from his current hunt. It'd be a bit weird to just carry around some extra skulls. The trophy cabinet feels communal, as it's in an open space, and we have no idea if the other two human skulls are from this hunt.
But let's assume they are.
Even if we include Hopper and his men, Jungle Hunter got 3 skulls from about 11 people (assuming Hopper was also a 6-man team). For every 4 people he kills, he takes approximately one trophy. If he'd killed Dutch, that number would go to an even 3:1 kill to trophy ratio. If we
don't add Hopper's team, that's about a 2:1 ratio.
According to this link (http://"https://the-dead-meat.fandom.com/wiki/Predator_2_(1990)_KILL_COUNT#Villainshttps://the-dead-meat.fandom.com/wiki/Predator_2_(1990)_KILL_COUNT#Villains"), City Hunter kills a whopping
28 people over the course of the film. Yet our most generous estimate is 4 skulls, dropping the kill-to-trophy ratio to just
7:1. That number gets a little closer to 6:1 if he killed Harrigan and took his skull.
So City Hunter definitely leaves a larger pile of corpses, but Jungle Hunter is clearly a man of discerning taste and knows how to pick his targets much better. He doesn't waste as much time or energy on low-value targets.
If you throw darts at a board long enough, you're guaranteed by chance to hit the target eventually. But hitting the target through aim and precision is what makes you the better player.
Quotehe wants to make the killing more honorable,
Still not sure what was ever honourable about slaughtering panicky old ladies in a confined, darkened space.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 09, 2021, 10:09:36 PM
QuoteCity Hunter collects way more skulls than Jungle Hunter.
We see him take exactly one more skull. Jungle Hunter takes Billy's, City Hunter takes King Willie and Lambert's.
If you look at it as a ratio of kills to trophies taken, Jungle Hunter takes the cake. City Hunter slaughters a lot of "unworthy" opponents before getting to anything worthwhile.
(I'm only going by skulls we see taken during the film; we see Jungle Hunter has three skulls, and there are three human skulls in the trophy cabinet at the end of P2. Even if City Hunter got Lambert's skull in place, he's still only one up.)
EDIT
Man, now I'm thinking about kill to skull ratios.
We can reasonably assume the skulls Jungle Hunter has on him are from his current hunt. It'd be a bit weird to just carry around some extra skulls. The trophy cabinet feels communal, as it's in an open space, and we have no idea if the other two human skulls are from this hunt.
But let's assume they are.
Even if we include Hopper and his men, Jungle Hunter got 3 skulls from about 11 people (assuming Hopper was also a 6-man team). For every 4 people he kills, he takes approximately one trophy. If he'd killed Dutch, that number would go to an even 3:1 kill to trophy ratio. If we don't add Hopper's team, that's about a 2:1 ratio.
According to this link (http://"https://the-dead-meat.fandom.com/wiki/Predator_2_(1990)_KILL_COUNT#Villainshttps://the-dead-meat.fandom.com/wiki/Predator_2_(1990)_KILL_COUNT#Villains"), City Hunter kills a whopping 28 people over the course of the film. Yet our most generous estimate is 4 skulls, dropping the kill-to-trophy ratio to just 7:1. That number gets a little closer to 6:1 if he killed Harrigan and took his skull.
So City Hunter definitely leaves a larger pile of corpses, but Jungle Hunter is clearly a man of discerning taste and knows how to pick his targets much better. He doesn't waste as much time or energy on low-value targets.
If you throw darts at a board long enough, you're guaranteed by chance to hit the target eventually. But hitting the target through aim and precision is what makes you the better player.
Quotehe wants to make the killing more honorable,
Still not sure what was ever honourable about slaughtering panicky old ladies in a confined, darkened space.
I really enjoyed reading your analysis. You make some great points, especially about what trophies we see Jungle or City actually handling on screen.
In defense of City, his skull stash likely was incomplete. He definitely got one or two on board the ship, but he did not have enough time to clear the train trophies or penthouse ones because of Fed and police interference at the scene of his kills, nor at the Slaughterhouse. Jungle had killed and collected all skulls but Dutch, there was nothing interfering with his hunt.
The old lady was armed as seen in the scene when the commuter with glasses freaks. Anyone armed is fair game for a Yautja to kill. Dutch even mentions this out loud in Predator.
That kind of just makes him an even worse trophy hunter - he constantly engages with targets he knows he'll have to abandon. It feels a lot more like he's there for the thrill of the kill than the thrill of the hunt. Trophies almost fell like an afterthought to the whole process.
Armed or not, it's not "honourable" in the least to kill a frightened old lady in a confined space. It's barely even sporting, which Dutch specifies as why being armed is important.
Well to be fair City Hunyer is in a more dangerious hunt where he is in urban environments he can get trapped in and be hit by crossfire. In this way he is more brave, he is leaping into a meat grinder, while Jungle hangs back on a tree casting plasma.
Jungle was dealing with isolated commandos, City can have large squads of cops, Feds, and even Army personal show up; in addition to these he has druglords, gangs, and angry commuters who take shots at him. City is in thick of it, risking his life for the glory of the hunt.
I concede killing a scared old lady is dark, but did he kill her? He placed his hand on her in infared, but he did more than that to Leona by raising her in air and choaking her but not killing her. Again both women were armed, and thus a threat.
The old women are hanging upside down, strung up by the Predator.
How much of a threat were they, really? I feel it's a stretch. Was a little old granny with a pistol as much of a threat as Blaine?
There are many opportunities for targets to be isolated, or at least less risky - we see them throughout the film, and the Predator even makes several kills in this fashion. The film actually shows is not necessary to slaughter so many people in crowded situations.
Jungle Hunter targets high value, dangerous game. Any one of the commandos is more dangerous than the gangbangers, cops, or random civilians the City Hunter throws itself at.
I think a low kill to trophy ratio and consistently more challenging prey shows Jungle Hunter is the more serious trophy hunter, and City Hunter is a butcher who occasionally scores a decent kill.
I do admit Commandos are higher level kills, however I say its a stretch to claim the City Hunter is a butcher. He has descended into a den of blood: gangs, druglords, angry commuters, and cops. Until he kills Danny and Lambart, he is actually serving the interests of Law Enforcement.
As for old lady, I didn't see he strung up. That is excessive, but again I reiterate if someone is armed the Predator is cleared to kill. Actually the Jungle Hunter violates this code by using his wrist blades in his one on one with Dutch who has no weapon; this is when Jungle punches the living day lights out of Dutch.
The honour code you refer to isn't really in the movies. They show the Predators are out for sport, not honour - again, Dutch says there's no sport in shooting Anna, and Keyes likens them to big game hunters, not honourable warriors. There's nothing honourable about shooting someone in the back.
Not that that's even a strict code. There's nothing really honourable or sporting about Dutch and Jungle Hunter's last fight. Dutch is physically incapable of harming the Predator hand to hand. It's basically savouring the kill and drawing out the victory - not terribly honourable, and of questionable sport.
The City Hunter kills en masse, regardless of whether the targets are suitable for trophy taking. He attacks anything with a pulse and a weapon. He taunts his prey and engages in psychological torture against Harrigan.
This suggests to me that trophies aren't his main concern, whereas Jungle Hunter seems exclusively preoccupied with taking a piece of everyone.
City Hunter is quite a psychopath. :laugh:
Quote from: SiL on Jul 10, 2021, 12:25:37 PM
The honour code you refer to isn't really in the movies. They show the Predators are out for sport, not honour - again, Dutch says there's no sport in shooting Anna, and Keyes likens them to big game hunters, not honourable warriors. There's nothing honourable about shooting someone in the back.
Not that that's even a strict code. There's nothing really honourable or sporting about Dutch and Jungle Hunter's last fight. Dutch is physically incapable of harming the Predator hand to hand. It's basically savouring the kill and drawing out the victory - not terribly honourable, and of questionable sport.
The City Hunter kills en masse, regardless of whether the targets are suitable for trophy taking. He attacks anything with a pulse and a weapon. He taunts his prey and engages in psychological torture against Harrigan.
Amen.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 10, 2021, 12:25:37 PM
The honour code you refer to isn't really in the movies. They show the Predators are out for sport, not honour - again, Dutch says there's no sport in shooting Anna, and Keyes likens them to big game hunters, not honourable warriors. There's nothing honourable about shooting someone in the back.
Again, I would say you're falling into the trap of fitting everything into your version of honor, and not theirs. I challenge you to try to get out of your own headspace and into theirs. Even how honor is perceived and acted upon in some parts of the Middle East could often challenge your ideals. But it's honorable or dishonorable to them.
(https://i.ibb.co/DWWTTky/Screenshot-20201123-221203-Gallery.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/71MrxY7/Screenshot-20201123-220721-Gallery.jpg)
The honor code has always been the
intent of the Thomas Brothers and to me it has been 100% depicted. The Thomas Brothers explained Predator 2 is the "bible" for the Predator character.
To the creators, the Predators are a race of sports hunters. They do have a system of honor and code, per them. Like American hunters believe they have honor, when they go to church on Sundays after slaughtering defenseless animals with high powered weapons in camouflage on Saturdays.
You may question hunting deer or bear from trees in camouflage clothing using high powered scoped rifles ... "They don't fight fair! Where's the honor in that?" I do too. But to an American Hunter, it's not a question. The kill during the day, and kiss their children goodnight, living "honorable" lives. If the deer could reason, I'm certain they would see human hunters as psychopathic killers, even if they follow a code by not shooting the young or pregnant. So it is important to get out of your headspace, and into theirs.
This intent made it into the film crystal clear, especially when not just the Elder, but
the whole tribe spared Mike Harrigan after he killed one of their own...
and they even rewarded him for it!(https://i.imgur.com/boyRiZp.gif)
It was crystal clear in the film when an
armed trained police officer Leona was spared from being killed because she was pregnant.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ParallelSecondhandIvorybilledwoodpecker-size_restricted.gif)
Some to me ridiculously argue that it's some sort of population control, even though the intent, even though it still qualifies as an honor code regardless... but by what Peter Keyes says in regards to how little Predators visit our planet, I don't think Predators will have to fear that killing one pregnant woman armed cop would impact the survival of the human species. It's following an honor code, i.e. their standard of conduct, any way you look at it.
Sparing the child in the cemetery. Sparing the unarmed. Sparing Anna if it's perceived as sport or not is still following a code. Even finding Dutch worthy enough to challenge him in weaponless combat, is all depictions of an honor code. Get into that Yautja headspace y'all! :)
Even, in regards to the detonation, I see that as the Predators do not want their body or especially their tech discovered. The devastating impact of leaving that behind would be so much worse than any unwanted deaths it may cause in its radius. - It's like when humans hunt bears with spears, they bring along a gun just in case. Because after a point, it gets to a point, where all bets are off
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jul 10, 2021, 12:34:50 PM
City Hunter is quite a psychopath. :laugh:
He was definitely written as reckless and a rule breaker. You might like this. I wrote about it here, and hope to eventually turn it into an article someday soon! :)
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=61579.0
@Voodoo Magic has made a far greater rebuttal than I could ever have. I bow to you skill Elder Yautja.
I will say that I do not think psychopath is a fair description of City Hunter. He spares the naked woman in the Penthouse, he spares Leona who is pregnant, and he spares Mike Harrigan on the rooftoop at the beginning when he could have easily killed him.
As for Danny Archuleta, City killed him because he took a piece of his technology, the scorpion projective from his wrist launcher. Predators guard their tech with great care, hence the wrist bomb that wipes out them and their nearby tech. We see how pissed the Hybrid Pred gets in The Predator when his tech is taken.
JH
Wiped out green berets, and spec ops. And could only be stopped by Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 10, 2021, 06:53:20 PM
JH
Wiped out green berets, and spec ops. And could only be stopped by Arnold Schwarzenegger.
That did make Jungle Hunter bad*ss. I also love his requiem laugh as he arms and has the count down chime on his wrist bomb.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fnfDXznMf0E (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fnfDXznMf0E)
In reply to Voodoo;
I never said they don't follow any rules (just the opposite), and obviously their rules will seem odd to us. But City Hunter Yautja frequently brings up comparisons to Bushido and samurai that were popularized in the EU.
They have a code of conduct, but they're also clearly egotistical and really do just seen to enjoy hurting things. These aren't mutually exclusive. Big game hunters love to act like they're operating on some deeper level, but talk to enough of them and you see so much of it's nothing more than a dick measuring competition.
Predators are very accurate to that characterisation. They have rules and aren't completely ruthless -- but they will also absolutely kill you under the flimsiest pretense those rules allow.
QuoteAs for Danny Archuleta, City killed him because he took a piece of his technology, the scorpion projective from his wrist launcher
If he killed him for that he would've taken the spear tip back off him.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 10, 2021, 10:25:53 PM
In reply to Voodoo;
I never said they don't follow any rules (just the opposite), and obviously their rules will seem odd to us. But City Hunter Yautja frequently brings up comparisons to Bushido and samurai that were popularized in the EU.
They have a code of conduct, but they're also clearly egotistical and really do just seen to enjoy hurting things. These aren't mutually exclusive. Big game hunters love to act like they're operating on some deeper level, but talk to enough of them and you see so much of it's nothing more than a dick measuring competition.
Predators are very accurate to that characterisation. They have rules and aren't completely ruthless -- but they will also absolutely kill you under the flimsiest pretense those rules allow.
Flimsy yes, pretense no, in my opinion. I think the City Hunter could see / knows that Danny-boy is armed, which evidently means 'green light & kill away', but that gun is not causing immediate danger, nor even drawn, so it's following the "honor code" in the flimsiest, loosest kind of way. But I don't ever think the City Hunter will kill the unarmed, then place a gun on him afterwards so to speak (i.e. pretense).
But... it's important to qualify this with: it all needs to be viewed through a hunter's point of view as well. Does a hunter shoot an animal that's only attacking, claws out, teeth biting? No, so then even this flimsy argument is dispelled.
But yes, plenty of 'dick measuring' among some of them at least, I presume. Even the "honorable hunter" comes across as an oxymoron to many of us, hence triggering all the honor debates.
Unfortunately I think those bushido etc. comparisons don't line up with the creator's intent, and it has muddied the waters a bit I'm afraid.
He won't plant a gun, no. But he would've blown the kid away if it had been a real gun.
I feel "it was armed, it was fair game!" is one of those legal loopholes that lets you waste low threat, low value, otherwise "unworthy" opponents without ramification.
It's like the old "It was coming right for us!" defense hunters would use to shoot wildlife they weren't supposed to. Invoke those magic words and it wasn't poaching, it was self defense! ;D
There are clearly lines that can't be crossed, but boy will they toe that line.
That's why I feel Jungle Hunter was a proper hunter who actually kind of believed in hunting the best game, while City Hunter was more of a trash hillbilly who just wanted to kill things.
Your mileage will obviously vary, but I always loved how distinctly different their characterisations were while operating in the same framework.
I don't think City Hunter is a "hillbilly" and Jungle is some paladin. They are different. I will return to my former point, City Hunter is in a more dangerous hunting ground, where in L.A. everyone is armed and lethal. He doesn't hesitate to kill anyone because as Voodoo so eloquently put it, hunters don't just kill game when the game is attacking. I mean Jungle killed Hawkins when he was talking to Anna, and worse he killed Poncho when he was unarmed and being carried by Dutch and Anna. I mean was that necessary? Poncho was wounded, and unarmed, but City is a devil for killing old ladies packing heat, and Danny who has a holstered weapon? Either the rules apply to both or they can both bend them in certain circumstances.
Perhaps redundant, but Jungle has a more advantageous hunting ground, trees and wide open spaces. City gets confined in Penthouses, Allyways, and even Train cars; which means he has to treat the tiniest threat as a serious one.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 12:39:55 AM
I don't think City Hunter is a "hillbilly" and Jungle is some paladin. They are different. I will return to my former point, City Hunter is in a more dangerous hunting ground, where in L.A. everyone is armed and lethal. He doesn't hesitate to kill anyone because as Voodoo so eloquently out it, hunters don't just kill game when the game is attacking. I mean Jungle killed Hawkins when he was talking to Anna, and worse he killed Poncho when he was unarmed and being carried by Dutch and Anna. I mean was that necessary? Poncho was wounded, and unarmed, but City is a devil for killing old ladies packing heat?
Jungle has a more advantageous hunting ground, trees and wide open spaces. City gets confined in Penthouses, Allyways, and even Train cars; which means he has to treat the tiniest threat as a serious one.
Poncho was not unarmed.
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 11, 2021, 12:43:34 AM
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 12:39:55 AM
I don't think City Hunter is a "hillbilly" and Jungle is some paladin. They are different. I will return to my former point, City Hunter is in a more dangerous hunting ground, where in L.A. everyone is armed and lethal. He doesn't hesitate to kill anyone because as Voodoo so eloquently out it, hunters don't just kill game when the game is attacking. I mean Jungle killed Hawkins when he was talking to Anna, and worse he killed Poncho when he was unarmed and being carried by Dutch and Anna. I mean was that necessary? Poncho was wounded, and unarmed, but City is a devil for killing old ladies packing heat?
Jungle has a more advantageous hunting ground, trees and wide open spaces. City gets confined in Penthouses, Allyways, and even Train cars; which means he has to treat the tiniest threat as a serious one.
Poncho was not unarmed.
Was he holding a gun when his arms were around Anna and Dutch?
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 12:47:18 AM
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 11, 2021, 12:43:34 AM
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 12:39:55 AM
I don't think City Hunter is a "hillbilly" and Jungle is some paladin. They are different. I will return to my former point, City Hunter is in a more dangerous hunting ground, where in L.A. everyone is armed and lethal. He doesn't hesitate to kill anyone because as Voodoo so eloquently out it, hunters don't just kill game when the game is attacking. I mean Jungle killed Hawkins when he was talking to Anna, and worse he killed Poncho when he was unarmed and being carried by Dutch and Anna. I mean was that necessary? Poncho was wounded, and unarmed, but City is a devil for killing old ladies packing heat?
Jungle has a more advantageous hunting ground, trees and wide open spaces. City gets confined in Penthouses, Allyways, and even Train cars; which means he has to treat the tiniest threat as a serious one.
Poncho was not unarmed.
Was he holding a gun when his arms were around Anna and Dutch?
He was aiming his HK94 with his right arm when he was killed. He and Dutch were both aiming down the trail with their own guns after Billy was killed. Anna tried to pick up ponchos gun after it fell, before Dutch kicked it away.
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 11, 2021, 12:53:02 AM
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 12:47:18 AM
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 11, 2021, 12:43:34 AM
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 12:39:55 AM
I don't think City Hunter is a "hillbilly" and Jungle is some paladin. They are different. I will return to my former point, City Hunter is in a more dangerous hunting ground, where in L.A. everyone is armed and lethal. He doesn't hesitate to kill anyone because as Voodoo so eloquently out it, hunters don't just kill game when the game is attacking. I mean Jungle killed Hawkins when he was talking to Anna, and worse he killed Poncho when he was unarmed and being carried by Dutch and Anna. I mean was that necessary? Poncho was wounded, and unarmed, but City is a devil for killing old ladies packing heat?
Jungle has a more advantageous hunting ground, trees and wide open spaces. City gets confined in Penthouses, Allyways, and even Train cars; which means he has to treat the tiniest threat as a serious one.
Poncho was not unarmed.
Was he holding a gun when his arms were around Anna and Dutch?
He was aiming his HK94 with his right arm when he was killed. He and Dutch were both aiming down the trail with their own guns after Billy was killed. Anna tried to pick up ponchos gun after it fell, before Dutch kicked it away.
I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing this out. So much is happening in that scene, I tend to focus on Dutch diving at Anna to stop her using a gun.
Yeah, it's a tense moment. I didn't notice he already had the gun when I saw the movie the first few times.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 12:39:55 AM
I don't think City Hunter is a "hillbilly" and Jungle is some paladin.
I didn't say Jungle was. I pointed out before his brawl with Dutch was more ego than anything. But he seemed much more interested in worthy prey than City Hunter. He was more selective.
QuotePoncho was wounded, and unarmed, but City is a devil for killing old ladies packing heat, and Danny who has a holstered weapon? Either the rules apply to both or they can both bend them in certain circumstances.
My entire point is they can bend them (you're the one who claimed it was ever about honour). It's a loose guideline, not hard and fast laws.
My point is
also that Jungle Hunter still seems to stick closer to the notion of collecting trophies from valuable prey: Poncho, Hawkins and Blaine had shown their value in the fight against the guerillas. Whereas City Hunter is happy to slaughter half a dozen people for every one worth claiming, and is more than happy to kill anyone with an actual gun (unless pregnant, apparently) whether they've shown themselves to be any real threat or not.
QuoteCity gets confined in Penthouses, Allyways, and even Train cars; which means he has to treat the tiniest threat as a serious one.
By choice. He's more than able to move around the city undetected -- he does it frequently. He's more than capable of attacking isolated targets -- again, does it frequently. He's also more than able to
not engage in a fight, but seems much more interested in killing as many people as he can.
"I was surrounded! I had no choice but to kill them all!"
"Wow, they ambushed you?"
"No, I literally broke in and jumped in the middle of them."
"Oh. But you got some great trophies, right?"
"Some great what?"
"Trophies. You jumped in the middle of them all because there was a skull worth claiming, right."
"... I don't follow."
Even Kevin Peter Hall called the City Hunter a "bad blood" for his more in-your-face style.
I maintain that, of the two, Jungle Hunter is the more serious trophy hunter, while City Hunter is much more about the thrill of the kill -- whatever that kill may be.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jul 10, 2021, 05:07:24 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jul 10, 2021, 12:34:50 PM
City Hunter is quite a psychopath. :laugh:
He was definitely written as reckless and a rule breaker. You might like this. I wrote about it here, and hope to eventually turn it into an article someday soon! :)
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=61579.0
Top tier post Voodoo, everything is nicely put together. The theory definitely deserves an article on the front page of the site. And speaking of which, I had forgotten the detail of the necklace, shame on me. 😅 That said, I'm 100% percent agree with you; Danny's necklace at the cemetery was such a sadistic and cruel psychological game from City Hunter. Well at least the Elder Predator showed some honor and respect for Harrigan by gifting him the flintlock pistol as a trophy. ;D
So I agree, and beyond the fact that they are an extraterrestrial race, whose obscure details of their culture or motivations may be beyond our understanding, City Hunter seems to be a rule breaker in al its glory. :)
Quote from: SiL on Jul 11, 2021, 01:16:26 AM
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 12:39:55 AM
I don't think City Hunter is a "hillbilly" and Jungle is some paladin.
I didn't say Jungle was. I pointed out before his brawl with Dutch was more ego than anything. But he seemed much more interested in worthy prey than City Hunter. He was more selective.
QuotePoncho was wounded, and unarmed, but City is a devil for killing old ladies packing heat, and Danny who has a holstered weapon? Either the rules apply to both or they can both bend them in certain circumstances.
My entire point is they can bend them (you're the one who claimed it was ever about honour). It's a loose guideline, not hard and fast laws.
My point is also that Jungle Hunter still seems to stick closer to the notion of collecting trophies from valuable prey: Poncho, Hawkins and Blaine had shown their value in the fight against the guerillas. Whereas City Hunter is happy to slaughter half a dozen people for every one worth claiming, and is more than happy to kill anyone with an actual gun (unless pregnant, apparently) whether they've shown themselves to be any real threat or not.
QuoteCity gets confined in Penthouses, Allyways, and even Train cars; which means he has to treat the tiniest threat as a serious one.
By choice. He's more than able to move around the city undetected -- he does it frequently. He's more than capable of attacking isolated targets -- again, does it frequently. He's also more than able to not engage in a fight, but seems much more interested in killing as many people as he can.
"I was surrounded! I had no choice but to kill them all!"
"Wow, they ambushed you?"
"No, I literally broke in and jumped in the middle of them."
"Oh. But you got some great trophies, right?"
"Some great what?"
"Trophies. You jumped in the middle of them all because there was a skull worth claiming, right."
"... I don't follow."
Even Kevin Peter Hall called the City Hunter a "bad blood" for his more in-your-face style.
I maintain that, of the two, Jungle Hunter is the more serious trophy hunter, while City Hunter is much more about the thrill of the kill -- whatever that kill may be.
By choice? Well yes he does jump into the fray, but what if on certain Hunts Yautja/ Preds are requires to hunt a certain way?
My point about the danger of a city hunt still stands. So much more can go wrong in that environment. There are many times I felt City Hunter would get hit in a crossfire between gangs or on the train with the gangs & commuters.
I do concede he enjoys the thrill of the kill , I mean he had no cause to kill King Willie. I wonder what he thought of a human sporting dreadlocks?
Jungle had higher value targets by default, Commandos came into his play ground. City has to carve his way through the unworthy to find some trophies, making his hunt harder to achieve glory.
I do agree with you and Voodoo that the Predator rules of honor are more of guidelines than unbreakable dogmas. Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jul 11, 2021, 03:14:15 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jul 10, 2021, 05:07:24 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jul 10, 2021, 12:34:50 PM
City Hunter is quite a psychopath. :laugh:
He was definitely written as reckless and a rule breaker. You might like this. I wrote about it here, and hope to eventually turn it into an article someday soon! :)
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=61579.0
Top tier post Voodoo, everything is nicely put together. The theory definitely deserves an article on the front page of the site. And speaking of which, I had forgotten the detail of the necklace, shame on me. 😅 That said, I'm 100% percent agree with you; Danny's necklace at the cemetery was such a sadistic and cruel psychological game from City Hunter. Well at least the Elder Predator showed some honor and respect for Harrigan by gifting him the flintlock pistol as a trophy. ;D
So I agree, and beyond the fact that they are an extraterrestrial race, whose obscure details of their culture or motivations may be beyond our understanding, City Hunter seems to be a rule breaker in al its glory. :)
It probably was a mind game City Hunter was using to set his apex prey up for the final part of the hunt. But is there a possibility the Predator simply left Danny's necklace there out of honor? To allow Harrigan to retrieve it and have something from his friend? I mean the way City Hunter is treated post mortem by the Lost Tribe makes me think he had a sense of honor over losing a clansman, in this case a cop friend.
Your last paragraph is very wise. Some things are beyond our understanding. :)
I always figured he was younger and less experienced.
Sort of on Predator Rumspringa.
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 11, 2021, 04:02:24 AM
I always figured he was younger and less experienced.
Sort of on Predator Rumspringa.
That's interesting, his breathing issues made me think he was older, including his skin coloring.
To be fair he only had breathing issues after having his chest blown open by a shotgun. I also got the impression it was younger.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 11, 2021, 04:10:52 AM
To be fair he only had breathing issues after having his chest blown open by a shotgun. I also got the impression it was younger.
Xenopedia claims he's Blooded which a rank above:
Pup
Young Blood
Unblooded
So he's not a young blood.
Link: https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/City_Hunter
Maybe City Hunter was just being deadly childish. :laugh:
(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/PelN.gif)
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 03:35:06 AM
Your last paragraph is very wise. Some things are beyond our understanding. :)
Thank you. :)
City Hunter be like, "I'm a kid in a cadaver store." :D
I just can't help loving City Hunter, he's so bad to the bone; how he jumps into a sea of people and takes them apart. I mean what's more epic? Jungle blasting Jessie Ventura through the chest, or City dropping down with Combistick to take on Keyes and his men? ;)
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 04:12:57 AM
Xenopedia claims he's Blooded which a rank above:
With all due respect I don't take fan sites as gospel.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 04:25:54 AM
I mean what's more epic? Jungle blasting Jessie Ventura through the chest, or City dropping down with Combistick to take on Keyes and his men? ;)
Jungle Hunter walking out of the water after chasing Dutch down the waterfall remains the most epic predator moment for me. That thing just exuded dread.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 11, 2021, 05:43:33 AM
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 04:12:57 AM
Xenopedia claims he's Blooded which a rank above:
With all due respect I don't take fan sites as gospel.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 04:25:54 AM
I mean what's more epic? Jungle blasting Jessie Ventura through the chest, or City dropping down with Combistick to take on Keyes and his men? ;)
Jungle Hunter walking out of the water after chasing Dutch down the waterfall remains the most epic predator moment for me. That thing just exuded dread.
Gospel or not its a source. I mean we are fans and have caught details. Are we to consider ourselves irrelevant? So in the same way I urge we nor dismiss fan discoveries and data unless it be proven error.
That is a great scene, Dutch seemed done for.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 07:25:10 AM
Gospel or not its a source.
I'm saying he's younger. My source is myself, a fan. Am I to consider myself irrelevant?
Quote from: SiL on Jul 11, 2021, 07:45:38 AM
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 07:25:10 AM
Gospel or not its a source.
I'm saying he's younger. My source is myself, a fan. Am I to consider myself irrelevant?
No, you are entitled to your view. But my point was we shouldn't dismiss Xenopedia because its a fan based site.
My point is it has no more weight than any other fan perspective.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 11, 2021, 11:30:55 AM
My point is it has no more weight than any other fan perspective.
Except their database is very thorough and accurate.
And yet things like City Hunter being blooded or older or more experienced aren't taken from any evidence in the movies. It's fan speculation.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 11, 2021, 10:54:55 PM
And yet things like City Hunter being blooded or older or more experienced aren't taken from any evidence in the movies. It's fan speculation.
Does the Predator 2 book or comics lend insight on his age? Are there interviews with Winston, Kevin Peter Hall, or Stephen Hopkins?
That would be where one could ascertain the age of City Hunter, in the intent of the director, how Kevin was told to act in comparison to his Jungle Hunter performance.
Illfonic actually has answered "rank" and his age at least to a degree. His flavor text in Hunting Grounds does indicate he's a "young blood" by the time Predator 2 occurs (since it's based on that incarnation of him) and the logs indicate he's around 300 though we don't get a specific age.
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Jul 12, 2021, 12:05:31 AM
Illfonic actually has answered "rank" and his age at least to a degree. His flavor text in Hunting Grounds does indicate he's a "young blood" by the time Predator 2 occurs (since it's based on that incarnation of him) and the logs indicate he's around 300 though we don't get a specific age.
Fascinating, so it records him as a Young Blood. I always thought his skin pallor, his eyebrows (which looked closer to The Lost Tribe Elder and AVP Elder), and some of his non-bio mask mannerisms made me believe he was older than Jungle. Perhaps he's older, as in both are Young Bloods, but City is slightly older?
Perhaps he's not older at all.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/56/cc/b7/56ccb79c573dd61a15b66d09f3ce7be6.jpg)
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 11, 2021, 12:53:02 AM
HK94
That would be the civvie version. I believe he has an MP5A3.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 12, 2021, 01:03:29 AM
Perhaps he's not older at all.
Perhaps he is the same age as Jungle.
Although I still feel City is older.
I heard somewhere that City Hunter saw the footage of what happened to Jungle and decided to go on a hunt during the heat wave in L.A. is this a fan theory or can it be found in some kind of literature?
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 04:08:30 AM
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 11, 2021, 04:02:24 AM
I always figured he was younger and less experienced.
Sort of on Predator Rumspringa.
That's interesting, his breathing issues made me think he was older, including his skin coloring.
City Hunter is younger than Jungle Hunter, per the creators:
(https://i.ibb.co/cbRY2NM/IMG-20210712-105911.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/YpSVSj4/IMG-20190226-093513.jpg)
Quote from: SiL on Jul 11, 2021, 05:43:33 AM
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 11, 2021, 04:12:57 AM
Xenopedia claims he's Blooded which a rank above:
With all due respect I don't take fan sites as gospel.
Yeah, unfortunately, although I respect, applaud and appreciate their hard work over at Xenopedia, I do remember there was A LOT of misinformation on their Predator 2 page alone, which unfortunately caused a great deal of confusion and has since been cleaned up.
And never fully trust a site dedicated to a fictional character that doesn't even know what the creators of that fictional character look like. Xenopedia are still embarrassingly using pictures of Jim & John Thomas (the twin owners of the El Pinto Restaurants) incorrectly as Jim & John Thomas, the creators of Predator. (facepalm)
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/John_Thomas
https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Jim_Thomas
(https://media.bizj.us/view/img/1314851/01-elpinto-600*1200xx600-338-0-31.jpg)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/IMG_20210415_214029-701x531.jpg)
Well that settles it, City is Younger. Thank you Voodoo for sharing that info. :)
I suppose I should have caught that City was younger since he's acrobatic and a close killer. I mean you'd expect an older Pred to use a Plasmacaster mostly, while a Young Blood uses a Combistick and Wristblades.
I am do believe Scar is much younger than City Hunter.
If you go by Paul Anderson, Scar is older than the first two Predators.
I do not go by Paul Anderson.
I like AvP 2004 but that's just load of bullshit, Mr. Anderson :D
Quote from: SiL on Jul 12, 2021, 08:29:29 PM
If you go by Paul Anderson, Scar is older than the first two Predators.
I do not go by Paul Anderson.
Hmm.. I read the three Preds were teenagers and this was their rite of passage.
Yup, and he said the first two were younger than that, hence no scars on them.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 12, 2021, 08:48:27 PM
Yup, and he said the first two were younger than that, hence no scars on them.
Well AVP isn't canon, so Anderson's sentiments are simply that.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 12, 2021, 08:58:08 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jul 12, 2021, 08:48:27 PM
Yup, and he said the first two were younger than that, hence no scars on them.
Well AVP isn't canon, so Anderson's sentiments are simply that.
Well, they are definitely separate licenses and subsequently separate revenue streams, but as of 2018's "The Predator", both Predator and AvP is one big continuity, which makes sense overall with the Xeno skull in Predator 2 to the Hawkins Grave in AvPR to the spear in The Predator.
(https://i.ibb.co/G51XyF4/IMG-20150810-163538-2.png)
Who knows how Disney's 20th Century Studios sees all this now, though.
A note of trivia though is the AvP films are considered "sequels" per the current lawsuit:
(https://i.ibb.co/zb5w0ns/Screenshot-20210712-171012-Adobe-Acrobat.jpg)
If AVP becomes canon, it will require they explain David is no the father of Xenomorphs, but simply found the recipe the Predators in AVP and AVPR did.
AvP was retconned by Prometheus detaching the prequels and subsequently the Alien film franchise entirely from AvP.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jul 12, 2021, 09:39:56 PM
AvP was retconned by Prometheus detaching the prequels and subsequently the Alien film franchise entirely from AvP.
Do you think a Promethean sequel could reconcile the franchises?
The biggest issue is Xenomorphs in 2004.
I think it's tricky but possible, but that would have to be over Ridley Scott's dead body. :laugh:
Plus, I just don't think there's enough of an upswell of fan desire to re-link the two quite frankly. It's been my experience you'll find more fan desire to retcon Ridley's prequels as well, and both AvPs and David will be on the outside looking in. :D
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jul 12, 2021, 10:00:53 PM
I think it's tricky but possible, but that would have to be over Ridley Scott's dead body. :laugh:
Plus, I just don't think there's enough of an upswell of fan desire to re-link the two quite frankly. It's been my experience you'll find more fan desire to retcon Ridley's prequels as well, and both AvPs and David will be on the outside looking in. :D
Does Ridley not like the AVP films or the Predator films?
I'm not certain if Ridley is on the record regarding Predator, but no, he's definitely not a fan of AvP.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 12, 2021, 09:46:48 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jul 12, 2021, 09:39:56 PM
AvP was retconned by Prometheus detaching the prequels and subsequently the Alien film franchise entirely from AvP.
Do you think a Promethean sequel could reconcile the franchises?
The biggest issue is Xenomorphs in 2004.
Time travel, time travel, everybody !
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GrouchyMatureJenny-max-1mb.gif)
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 12, 2021, 09:35:58 PM
If AVP becomes canon, it will require they explain David is no the father of Xenomorphs, but simply found the recipe the Predators in AVP and AVPR did.
No son, AvP
is canon, but only to the Predator movies.
None of which are canon to the Alien movies.
Or at least, this seems to be how recent creators and a lot of the more up to date fans are rolling with it.
They apparently separate things by brand and frankly nobody seemingly told the Predator writers so AVP still occupies a slot on the timeline even if legal doesn't see it that way. It's clumsy and stupid regarding the actual stance Fox has and is left unenforced so it seemingly doesn't even matter. And even if we didn't include the Alien versus Predator films, they still predate the prequels in the Predator continuity by the existence of the skull and Lex's spear, not to mention Neca lore which is supposed to be canon and has a handful of instances where they appear prior to the prequels. The only elements other prequels Predator uses is the Engineers and that's only based on art done by Tristan Jones.
Really the only way around this is a hard reboot where everyone literally is required to start fresh but that's what happens when Fox doesn't pay attention to what it's doing and simply doesn't care.
It's just two continuities Fox has been really bad at implementing.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jul 13, 2021, 06:08:24 PM
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 12, 2021, 09:35:58 PM
If AVP becomes canon, it will require they explain David is no the father of Xenomorphs, but simply found the recipe the Predators in AVP and AVPR did.
No son, AvP is canon, but only to the Predator movies.
None of which are canon to the Alien movies.
Or at least, this seems to be how recent creators and a lot of the more up to date fans are rolling with it.
Perhaps the time for caring if its canon or legends is at an end. Just enjoy it all.