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So I wanted to post up a discussion on why many of us feel the AVP movies failed.
- Plot?
- Characters?
-Visual Effects?
- All of it?

So my opinion sources for a little bit of all things. But my biggest thing is I felt that AVP was too....kid friendly? hardly any blood and gore while AVPR sort of made up for it. Another big dislike was the lack of attention to timeframes to allow room for the lore of the universe to set it. They made it seem like the facehugger to full blown Xeno took ....maybe an hour? Covenant did the same sort of thing but I wont even start with that. My last view I feel strongly on is that both the Predators and Xenos were so fake and little detail was taken into consideration on both species. The Predators are supposed to move swiftly and viciously not like bulky tanks... and the Xenos were mostly CGI and not practical effects.... gross and I think the best thing about the OG movies is that you see very little of them... the level of stalking... fear.... mystery... it leaves the mind to wonder and get built up for something. I feel like these movies were very rushed with a plotline that sucked. Although AVP story wise was not bad AVPR was a zombie apocalypse just with Xenos and highschool love and too many characters that no one gave a crap about.

Anyways .... Fire away people what do you think? How can we make this franchise better again?

The first one had the characters behind the audience the first half, so they seem dumb.  Lex and Sebastian were dull and had no development.  Weyland was a kinda interesting.

There's very little actual versing with only two fights - and the first one - which should've been entree, was better than the second - the supposed main course.

The characters aren't really active in the story until Lex helps Scar at the end.  They mostly just wander around in the dark, then run around in the dark.

They're both immature. The first is childish, the second had the mentality of a 14 year old.

The characters are passive in both. They have no real influence of the plot.

The fights are lacklustre, there's no real tension, the dialogue is awful, and all the good bits in either are taken from other movies.

Oh yeah, didn't get to the second one.

Don't need to now.

The only good think about AVPR was Wolf even though I think he had too much face time and not enough mystery behind him ... he was a bad a$$ and really acted the part of an older experienced pred

He would've been dead in ten minutes if any Alien had thought to do something like, I don't know,  try to hurt him.

Wolf was cloaked in impenetrable plot armour. A random metal beam did more damage to him for 90 minutes of film than any Alien. At every opportunity the Aliens did everything they could to not harm him in any way, despite him literally standing in defenceless positions while surrounded by them.

He struck some cool poses. That's it. Chalk it up to another thing the movies got wrong.

Yeah, what was actually "bad a$$" about him?

I have been saying that in other AVP orientated threads such as the "which Predator is most bada**", a lot of folk are naming Wolf as most bada** for some reason, though it is is their choice but in my opinion Wolf was not bada**, his foes were useless. If he had been up against actual Aliens instead of those weird bobbing head cannon fodder in Requiem, he would either be seriously injured ten times over or just plain dead. If you were to define someone by the quality of their enemies then Wolf would be found wanting.

As for why the movies failed in my opinion;
First film
*The characters were not developed enough though I agree Weyland was interesting. One or two characters could have been interesting but were killed off too soon.
*pg-13 (gore is not everything but if you are going to have two R rated franchise monsters duking it out then the tone of where they come from needs to be respected, the rating also meant that you don't really see any good deaths as it either cuts away, is too close to see anything or bloodless.)
*Poor battles. Personally I expected more than a wrestling match.
*Life-cycle speed.
*Unnaturally long tail for Grid when he killed Gill.
*Predator design was too bulky and the Aliens were not that much better.


I found the ADR to be a little off putting as well,  sometimes everyone's voices just stands out too much, like the scene where Sebastien tells Lex about the hunter's moon.
There is also an inconsistency in slow mo; Just something that I have noticed recently actually.
To elaborate, Rousseau had her gun out ready and in proper safety position, all she had to do was raise her hands, aim and shoot but she fails because the facehugger is apparently too fast, but then we get Miller who is cocooned and is struggling to get Verheiden's gun, the facehugger actually leaps into the air before he can pull the gun from the holster yet he somewho has time to get proper grip (as he was pulling the gun by the trigger) and shoot it. The egg was also closer to him whereas the egg that got Rousseau was across the chamber so Miller should have had less time. Its not really an issue but its something I have noticed now and it stands out for me because it seems to me that a trained person should have had better luck than Miller who managed to shoot it out of the air in what is essentially "firing from the hip" with his eyes closed too.  :P

I will say this for AVP, it had good concepts and it could have been a decent film. At least its more enjoyable that Requiem.

The second film...(sigh) where to start?
*Dumb Predators
*New life-cycle.
*Characters
*Dialogue
*Ironically too much gore. This film really over-compensated.
*Useless Aliens.

Wolf looked good but he was incompetent.

They should have kept this film small in terms of Alien threat, just have the four adult Aliens and a Predalien, it would given them more focus and they would have to be made a better threat otherwise they would all be gone too soon.

They undersold both creatures and didn't take establibished lore seriously.

Well, they both succeeded in their "general purpose". They were good popcorn movies that made their budgets back and then some extra. One of them (avpr) just pulled it off better than the other because it was allowed to have mature content. The only adult thing in avp1 was the condom line. I fully understand other people's complaints about the movies not following established lore and being failures. But, two types of vicious Alien creatures turned loose on earth would simply unleash havoc on both us and each other, and this is what we saw in the AVP movies. So it was honest enough.

I think the main issue here is that no film in either the Alien or Predator series has come close to equaling the sheer quality and horror/fun of the originals lately. Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Predator 1+2. These films were the absolute dream treatment for these creatures. They were well crafted, hardcore cinema with good writing and outstanding character development. They managed to be philosophical, but still retained true respect for the monster, and a desire to thrill the audience. When films of such quality exist in a series, anything less just isn't going to fly with certain people. I for one enjoy both uncut AVP's because they gave me exactly what I personally wanted. Good solid popcorn flicks featuring these two creatures duking it out and crushing everything in their way. AVPR was just more honest about the results.

I suppose the best way to put it would be thusly. When I want to "think" when watching a movie, I'll watch Tom Hank's latest historical drama, or a good classic film. When I want to "feel" something when watching a movie, like fear or excitement, I'll watch AVPR, Terminator, Godzilla, Pacific Rim, etc. It's two different tastes, yet both have their place, and both serve a purpose. If one fails to be the other, it's just because my expectations were in the wrong place. I wouldn't jump in a Chevy Malibu, and expect to have the same experience I'd get from a Jeep Rubicon. This is not to say that there aren't movies that are flat out bad. Because there are. Prometheus and Covenant for example.  ;)

Pumping up the tyres of Alien 3 and Predator 2 as "well crafted, hardcore cinema with good writing and outstanding character development" undermines your argument somewhat.

Quote from: SM on May 10, 2018, 02:50:32 AM
Pumping up the tyres of Alien 3 and Predator 2 as "well crafted, hardcore cinema with good writing and outstanding character development" undermines your argument somewhat.

Not necessarily. Predator 2 was like Aliens for the predator universe. It was loud, scary and in your face. Gunfights, chases, showdowns, etc. But it felt like a legitimate predator movie. The characters were a mixture of wild, obnoxious, far out, honorable, crazy, etc. But they were overall decent characters and suited the film. Unlike the characters from either of the AVP's.

Alien 3 was a solid entry. It went to a dark place, but did it right. It was indeed hardcore, and the main characters were well written. Dillon, Andrews, 85, Clemens, etc. were not the best the universe has seen, but they fit well in the story and their performances and dialogue suited them. It was a gothic horrorfest, and I loved it. So to me, it is indeed "well crafted hardcore cinema with good writing and outstanding character development".

There is no doubt that Alien 3 and Predator 2 are on the lower ends of the greatness scale. I knew that going in. But in the context of which is more faithful to the lore, feels right, etc. they beat the AVP's all day long. Different times, different purposes.

Quote from: SM on May 10, 2018, 02:50:32 AM
Pumping up the tyres of Alien 3 and Predator 2 as "well crafted, hardcore cinema with good writing and outstanding character development" undermines your argument somewhat.

He was probably referring to the assembly cut of Alien 3.

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 10, 2018, 03:12:24 AM

Quote from: SM on May 10, 2018, 02:50:32 AM
Pumping up the tyres of Alien 3 and Predator 2 as "well crafted, hardcore cinema with good writing and outstanding character development" undermines your argument somewhat.

He was probably referring to the assembly cut of Alien 3.

Yes indeed. Haven't watched any other version since it became a thing.

Further undermined.  :o

AvPR is by far the worst film in either franchise.

Only way it could get worse is if asylum or uwe boll makes AvP3

Quote from: SM on May 10, 2018, 03:18:37 AM
Further undermined.  :o

1. Just to be certain, the assembly cut is the directors cut on the Blu-ray correct? The one with the additional footage and the cow burster is the version I am referring to.

2. Does this make me the Underminer? Because I'd love to be a bad dude in an incredibles movie. Where's my hardhat? I need to go practice my Ratzenberger.  :D

1. Not a directors cut, but yes.
2. Because neither Predator 2 nor Alien 3 are well crafted or well written or are heavy on character development.  I don't recall any character development in Predator 2.

Alien³ is one of the best written 3rd movies in the history of space horror franchises. What the heck man.  :-X

Only if you're talking about the vastly superior Eric Red version.

If you want to compare the scripts, but as a movie Alien 3 works (even if you want to call it 'flawed').

I am not a fan of the Eric Red script, however, or any of the alt Alien 3 scripts.  Not having Ripley is a big mistake, would have failed hard.  There are exceptions to that rule, but you don't get rid of your star if they're still in their prime.

When that happened, you have Predator 2, which is a good movie, but failed financially.

Quote from: Huggs on May 10, 2018, 03:10:14 AM
Predator 2 was like Aliens for the predator universe. It was loud, scary and in your face. Gunfights, chases, showdowns, etc.

Which is what Predator had to begin with. Aliens took the outline of Alien and made it a very different film; new genre, new tone, but still intense and part of the universe of the first.

Predator 2 took the outline of the first movie and ... set it in a city. Then ripped off a scene from Aliens almost shot-for-shot. Poorly.

Quote from: whiterabbit on May 10, 2018, 04:07:36 AM
Alien³ is one of the best written 3rd movies in the history of space horror franchises. What the heck man.  :-X

Quote from: Scorpio on May 10, 2018, 06:07:18 AM
If you want to compare the scripts, but as a movie Alien 3 works (even if you want to call it 'flawed').
[/spoiler]

Lot's of bad movies work. That doesn't make them good, great, or incredible. The strongest aspects of Alien 3 are Fincher's direction and visual touch, Weaver, Dutton, and Dance's acting, and the music. The script is a hot mess and the final film echoes that mess.

Quote from: Scorpio on May 10, 2018, 06:07:18 AM
I am not a fan of the Eric Red script, however, or any of the alt Alien 3 scripts.  Not having Ripley is a big mistake, would have failed hard.  There are exceptions to that rule, but you don't get rid of your star if they're still in their prime.

I don't agree with that at all. Weaver's only major contribution to the third film is wanting Ripley to die. The rest of her mandates and authoritarian attitude caused a lot of ripples for the franchise. Gibson's script had a lot of potential and could have been just as good as Aliens with a little more finese.

Quote from: Scorpio on May 10, 2018, 06:07:18 AM
When that happened, you have Predator 2, which is a good movie, but failed financially.

Predator 2 is a fine movie. It's fun. But it's not great, by any stretch. One of my biggest beefs with it is the repetitive feeling it gets. Predator carves up, what, four groups of people? The big problem there is that the film robs itself all the mystery and starts off at 11. Again, I think a better edit of the film would keep the Predator hidden until Harrigan see's the "mirage" on the roof. I'd also cut the slaughter in the pent house, and have the crew discover the slaughter aftermath.

Both of the AVP films suck for different reasons. Their characters are just... Awful. the pacing in both films is terrible. AVP has no balls. AVPR has no light. The Aliens and Predators are both awfully portrayed. The Predators in the first AVP get ganked way too rapidly, and the aliens in AVPR are reduced to whiney little bitches.

You couldn't have Alien 3 without Weaver.  That's like having Return of the Jedi without Mark Hamill.  Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome without Mel Gibson (I know he wasn't in the 4th one but he was way past his prime by then).  Like having Terminator 3 without Arnold.

You don't get rid of your star that sells the movie.  That's why the execs wouldn't make it without Weaver.

So Eric Red's and William Gibson's scripts both fail.  No Weaver, no Alien.

(Of course you have to remember this was 1991 when Weaver was still in her prime, that's not the case anymore so we have had Alien movies without Weaver)

Quote from: Scorpio on May 10, 2018, 06:07:18 AM
If you want to compare the scripts, but as a movie Alien 3 works (even if you want to call it 'flawed').

I am not a fan of the Eric Red script, however, or any of the alt Alien 3 scripts.  Not having Ripley is a big mistake, would have failed hard.  There are exceptions to that rule, but you don't get rid of your star if they're still in their prime.

When that happened, you have Predator 2, which is a good movie, but failed financially.

You're telling me Alien 3 succeeded?

Quote from: Scorpio on May 10, 2018, 09:33:36 AM
So Eric Red's and William Gibson's scripts both fail.  No Weaver, no Alien.

Wrong. Weaver was a great actress and she did amazing work, but the series is so much more than her and her character and it would have just fine without her.

Gibson's script would have been amazing.

Quote from: OpenMaw on May 10, 2018, 09:53:11 AM

Quote from: Scorpio on May 10, 2018, 09:33:36 AM
So Eric Red's and William Gibson's scripts both fail.  No Weaver, no Alien.

Wrong. Weaver was a great actress and she did amazing work, but the series is so much more than her and her character and it would have just fine without her.

I agree with this, I love Signourney, she is a brilliant actress but the series was about the Alien and an assemble of characters dealing with it. It was never just about Ripley. This is one of the reasons I like Alien 3, because for all its flaws it does wrap Ripley's story up.

And one of the reasons Alien Resurrection was so awful.

Quote from: Vermillion on May 10, 2018, 09:46:28 AM


You're telling me Alien 3 succeeded?

It succeeded financially, not critically, but its reputation has grown over the years.

Quote from: OpenMaw on May 10, 2018, 09:53:11 AM


Wrong. Weaver was a great actress and she did amazing work, but the series is so much more than her and her character and it would have just fine without her.

It would have been Predator 2.

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 10, 2018, 09:56:04 AM
Gibson's script would have been amazing.

Like his script for Johnny Mnemonic, and such an amazing movie that was.  :P

Quote from: Scorpio on May 10, 2018, 10:03:56 AM

Quote from: OpenMaw on May 10, 2018, 09:53:11 AM
Wrong. Weaver was a great actress and she did amazing work, but the series is so much more than her and her character and it would have just fine without her.

It would have been Predator 2.

It would have had Michael Biehn and Lance Henriksen though to carry the torch though.

QuoteIt was never just about Ripley.

It's about both.

I thought Mark Verheiden managed to pull off a compelling story without her.

I think many writers have pulled off fantastic stories in the alien universe without Ripley even being mentioned.

Labyrinth, Labyrinth, Labyrinth... The Day of the Dead of Alien stories.

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 10, 2018, 10:17:10 AM

It would have had Michael Biehn and Lance Henriksen though to carry the torch though.

They're not leading men, they can't carry a movie and hope to sell tickets.

You have a leading lady in Sigourney Weaver, and a big budget movie, you don't dump her and use no name actors.  Just not done.

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 10, 2018, 10:22:55 AM
I thought Mark Verheiden managed to pull off a compelling story without her.

You can pull off compelling stories.

The argument is that 'it's called Alien, not Ripley' is a bit ill informed though.

Quote from: Scorpio on May 10, 2018, 11:12:15 AM

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 10, 2018, 10:17:10 AM

It would have had Michael Biehn and Lance Henriksen though to carry the torch though.

They're not leading men, they can't carry a movie and hope to sell tickets.

You have a leading lady in Sigourney Weaver, and a big budget movie, you don't dump her and use no name actors.  Just not done.

Says who?

Many great films have been done with no name actors. In fact Sigourney wasn't that well known during Alien. You don't need major A listers to make a good film, in fact having well known actors tends to reduce your budget that could otherwise be used for something else.

She was probably the least know cast member of Alien.

Quote from: SM on May 10, 2018, 11:16:54 AM

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 10, 2018, 10:22:55 AM
I thought Mark Verheiden managed to pull off a compelling story without her.

You can pull off compelling stories.

The argument is that 'it's called Alien, not Ripley' is a bit ill informed though.

To the detriment of the series, IMO, when Weaver gained a measure of creative control over it.

It wasn't 'cos of her.

Wasn't the "no guns" thing one of the demands she made of Alien 3?

Quote from: Scorpio on May 10, 2018, 11:12:15 AM
They're not leading men, they can't carry a movie and hope to sell tickets.

Michael Biehn isn't a leading man?

What?

....WHAT?

The Terminator? Hello? The dude had to carry that film on his shoulders. Not only did he have to deliver exposition, he had to deliver it backed by a lot of energy and try to pack in some kind of nuance. Almost all of the plot sits in his lap. Not to mention he's pretty much been a consistent performer and actor his entire career. Tombstone, Navy SEALs, The Abyss, Aliens, Planet Terror, Blood Dragon.

And Lance Hendrickson may not be a "leading man" but he is one helluva strong supporting actor and a worker. That guy put's it all in for his craft. Even people who dislike AVP 04, and the 2010 AVP game think Lance was a highlight at least.

Weaver didn't start as a draw. She was literally no one when they made Alien, and to be perfectly honest if the behind the scenes situation is anything to go by it could have very easily gone the other way for Weaver.

If ALIEN III went ahead in 1989 or 1990 with Lance and Biehn, it would have done just fine.

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 10, 2018, 11:41:10 AM
Wasn't the "no guns" thing one of the demands she made of Alien 3?

She wanted one alien, no guns, and to die. She also wanted to have sex with the Alien since Aliens. She wanted the death scene too, but Cameron said no to that.

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 10, 2018, 11:41:10 AM
Wasn't the "no guns" thing one of the demands she made of Alien 3?

Demands is probably churching it up a bit.

I'm well known for churching.

She demanded the same from Aliens.

I imagine the success of the previous movie, an Oscar nod and the troubled production of Alien 3 gave her quite a bit more leverage in getting her way during the second go-round.

The two first items failed in both movies, and visual effects for the most part in the second one, in the first one they were decent. The movies are a mess in a lot of aspects.

Quote from: OpenMaw on May 10, 2018, 11:47:31 AM

Quote from: Scorpio on May 10, 2018, 11:12:15 AM
They're not leading men, they can't carry a movie and hope to sell tickets.

Michael Biehn isn't a leading man?

What?

....WHAT?

The Terminator? Hello? The dude had to carry that film on his shoulders. Not only did he have to deliver exposition, he had to deliver it backed by a lot of energy and try to pack in some kind of nuance. Almost all of the plot sits in his lap. Not to mention he's pretty much been a consistent performer and actor his entire career. Tombstone, Navy SEALs, The Abyss, Aliens, Planet Terror, Blood Dragon.

Arnold carried The Terminator, not Biehn.  Biehn has always been a supporting player, not a leading man.  Maybe in independent or low budget films, but not big studio movies.

QuoteAnd Lance Hendrickson may not be a "leading man" but he is one helluva strong supporting actor and a worker. That guy put's it all in for his craft. Even people who dislike AVP 04, and the 2010 AVP game think Lance was a highlight at least.

I don't disagree.

QuoteWeaver didn't start as a draw. She was literally no one when they made Alien, and to be perfectly honest if the behind the scenes situation is anything to go by it could have very easily gone the other way for Weaver.

I know, but Alien made her a huge star.  It was actually Tom Skerritt that got top billing on Alien.  But Alien was an ensemble piece, not a star vehicle.  Alien and Aliens made the Alien series a star vehicle for Weaver. 

Arnold wasn't well known back then either, his previous films that I know of was Hercules and Conan. So he wasn't big shot A lister back then. You really don't need star power to make a film good. In fact plenty of films with A listers has failed miserably and its arguably worse for them than an unknown because an unknown doesn't have a reputation that can get tainted. Hollywood is brutal man.

Yeah Hollywood is extremely competitive.

You forget Arnold was Mr Universe before he became an actor.  It's like supermodels, you can get your foot in the door just from the physical, acting talent secondary.

And he was well known back in the 70s/early 80s, from accounts I've read.  From Mr Universe title, Conan (Conan was a big hit, spawning an entire genre of imitators), Pumping Iron, plus Terminator was a low budget movie.

I'm not saying star power makes a film good, but that's Hollywood accounting.  You're only as good as your last box office.  That's why Shane Black got to direct The Predator, because Iron Man 3 made a billion dollars, not because of his 'talent'.

Quote from: Scorpio on May 10, 2018, 09:11:33 PM
Arnold carried The Terminator, not Biehn.  Biehn has always been a supporting player, not a leading man.  Maybe in independent or low budget films, but not big studio movies.

That is so wrong on so many levels. The Terminator would have been a shit show if there hadn't been a competent lead playing Kyle. Without a believable Kyle you have no movie.

What I meant was that Arnold was the star of that show.  He is the title character after all.  Not that he didn't have good supporting players like Biehn and Hamilton to help him carry the movie.  But the main reason to watch Terminator for most people is Arnold.

Quote from: The Cruentus on May 11, 2018, 05:31:45 PM
You really don't need star power to make a film good.

Dang straight. Look at "The Raid" movies.

Having all the talent in the world doesn't guarantee a good movie. Cough..Dawn of Justice..Cough.

Nobody is saying you need star power to make a movie good.  I love many foreign language and independent films that have actors I have never heard of.  But that's how the big studio system works.  Hollywood is a business after all.  They calculate how many tickets a name is likely to sell, and cast the movie with that in mind.  Of course that doesn't mean that movies sell on names alone.

Quote from: Scorpio on May 12, 2018, 07:46:06 PM
Nobody is saying you need star power to make a movie good.

Yes. Lacking star power was not one of the problems with Paul W.S. Anderson's AVP.
But casting was a problem for AVP.
Sanaa Lathan, Raoul Bova & Ewen Bremner were not right for an Alien or a Predator movie.

Second problem is with Anderson as a director. In terms of setting up a strange world (including with design) and setting up tense situations he's not at the same level of Scott, Cameron or Fincher. In terms of setting up & delivering straight action he's not as good as Cameron or McTiernan.

As for Requiem, it's just a grade B slasher flick. For people who like that, fine but Alien, Aliens & Predator are not in that same category. They were going for something iconic; in terms of our worst fears as well as a duel of wits between capable heroes and clever villains.

;)

The casting was fine for the movie it is.  It's not supposed to be a serious movie, but a fun adventure.

And I have no issues with Paul Anderson's directing, the guy can set up pretty good shots and knows how to handle action sequences on a tight budget.

Go watch his first feature, Shopping, if you don't believe me.

Death Race is pretty cool, as is Event Horizon.

Soldier is pretty crap, Resident Evil is average at best and I lasted maybe 20 minutes in Three Muskeers before turning it off.

Anderson has been fortunate to have such a long career for making so many mediocre movies.

Quote from: SM on May 15, 2018, 11:25:10 AM
Soldier is pretty crap,

Honestly i'd put it up there with Event Horizon.

Many seem to rate it.  Kurt Russell helps it, but all the sets and VFX looked so incredibly fake.

Quote from: SM on May 15, 2018, 08:14:25 PM
Many seem to rate it.  Kurt Russell helps it, but all the sets and VFX looked so incredibly fake.

Overdesigned stuff killed Event Horizon and many a film in the 90's anyway.

Quote from: Scorpio on May 15, 2018, 11:11:45 AM
It's not supposed to be a serious movie, but a fun adventure.

True. I enjoy AVP as a guilty pleasure. There are other medium budget "B movies" (in terms of quality) which I like such as; "Hercules" with Dwayne Johnson (2104), "The Happening" and "The Huntsman: Winter's War".

For big budget "B movies" that I enjoyed I'd add "2012" (2009) and "Valerian".

I was just answering the question in the title of the thread in terms of AVP's box office.

;)

I like Hercules, Valerian and 2012.  Haven't seen the others.

Quote from: skull-splitter on May 15, 2018, 08:22:38 PM

Quote from: SM on May 15, 2018, 08:14:25 PM
Many seem to rate it.  Kurt Russell helps it, but all the sets and VFX looked so incredibly fake.

Overdesigned stuff killed Event Horizon and many a film in the 90's anyway.

Event Horizon has good designs and special effects. 

You must be thinking of Lost in Space, the 90s remake.

The Lewis and Clarke is great inside and out. The exterior of the Event Horizon is great, but the interior just screams, well, 90s sets.

Quote from: SiL on May 21, 2018, 04:05:54 AM
The Lewis and Clarke is great inside and out. The exterior of the Event Horizon is great, but the interior just screams, well, 90s sets.

The hell you talking about?

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(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/21/ce/2021ce0164c627b7104ccf0c7ef5fc70.jpg)

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I'm talking about what you just neatly demonstrated -- the designs are lovely and all, but they're overdone. Every room on the Event Horizon feels like an overdesigned set. Not for a moment do you think it's an actual ship, unlike the Lewis and Clark.

Oh it looks like a ship alright...

...A ship designed by the cenobites.

Yeah.  Not exactly a safe or conducive working environment.

Quote from: SM on May 21, 2018, 11:33:51 AM
Yeah.  Not exactly a safe or conducive working environment.

Weir: It's perfectly safe!

Quote from: SM on May 21, 2018, 11:33:51 AM
Yeah.  Not exactly a safe or conducive working environment.

I don't know....I might take the family there.  ;D

Quote from: Scorpio on May 21, 2018, 04:11:08 AM

Quote from: SiL on May 21, 2018, 04:05:54 AM
The Lewis and Clarke is great inside and out. The exterior of the Event Horizon is great, but the interior just screams, well, 90s sets.

The hell you talking about?

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn-static.denofgeek.com%2Fsites%2Fdenofgeek%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Finsert_main_wide_image%2Fpublic%2F2016%2F07%2Feventhorizon_still7.jpg%3Fitok%3DZbeRnSDw&hash=84130588d9a51c803c1f5682c8f03e271b9552fe)

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/21/ce/2021ce0164c627b7104ccf0c7ef5fc70.jpg)

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-3SU-bFGx0rQ%2FUyIj1hWH-FI%2FAAAAAAAAo0g%2FhcNO98ppJYE%2Fs1600%2Feventhorizon18.png&hash=5b31e15a5c262bece445858d885cf9edd0c77b22)

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Exactly my point, but I mainly was refering to the motorized floating chair that served no purpose. I like the film, but such details pull it down.

That being said, I think the movies failed because they just weren't good enough. AvP was an honest attempt at it and I really think it's Paul WS Anderson's best film. It flows nicely, relatively relatable characters put in that grinder of a pyramid. Solid sets, not too overdone and telling a decent story.

AvP-R, upon reviewing, focused more on being your typical slasher film with the heavyweights. First half it actually seems to work, untill the high school drama seemed to be the focus of attention while Wolf investigates and steps starting to get less and less logical. In order to make it acceptable, they might have focussed more on Wolf getting in over his head and this slowly setting in while giving less screen time to the drama.

The theatrical release is also plagued by less gore which undersells the horror aspect.

I had the extended cut once but seemingly lost it.
I had less issues with it that I remembered after ten years, but I can't say it was a good film.

Quote from: skull-splitter on May 25, 2018, 08:06:14 AM
That being said, I think the movies failed because they just weren't good enough. AvP was an honest attempt at it and I really think it's Paul WS Anderson's best film. It flows nicely, relatively relatable characters put in that grinder of a pyramid. Solid sets, not too overdone and telling a decent story.

AvP-R, upon reviewing, focused more on being your typical slasher film with the heavyweights. First half it actually seems to work, untill the high school drama seemed to be the focus of attention while Wolf investigates and steps starting to get less and less logical. In order to make it acceptable, they might have focussed more on Wolf getting in over his head and this slowly setting in while giving less screen time to the drama.

The theatrical release is also plagued by less gore which undersells the horror aspect.

I had the extended cut once but seemingly lost it.
I had less issues with it that I remembered after ten years, but I can't say it was a good film.

AVP gets a lot of flack for the lackluster main cast, like their lack of characterization and development, etc.  The movie had a lot of bizarre stuff going on (especially the predator gods addition to the lore), but the characters?  Idk, I don't see it...I thought the movie did pretty well with the characters.  I liked what they did with Alexa's (?) character - the touching story about her and her father, the companionship between the crew, the vulnerability, etc.  Not too shabby imo.  AVP-R...eh...yeah. 

The only thing that I hate about AvP and I think is a horrible mistake la that they are only 2 films. I want 10 or 12 AvP films. Because I enjoy them as much I enjoy Alien films and Predator films.

QuoteI liked what they did with Alexa's (?) character

The fact that you're unsure of her name speaks volumes.  ;)

Quote from: SM on Jun 12, 2018, 08:38:55 PM

QuoteI liked what they did with Alexa's (?) character

The fact that you're unsure of her name speaks volumes.  ;)

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/87I8pKmdcAKw8/giphy.gif)

Quote from: Wysps on May 26, 2018, 01:56:26 AM
AVP gets a lot of flack for the lackluster main cast, like their lack of characterization and development, etc.  The movie had a lot of bizarre stuff going on (especially the predator gods addition to the lore), but the characters?  Idk, I don't see it...I thought the movie did pretty well with the characters.  I liked what they did with Alexa's (?) character - the touching story about her and her father, the companionship between the crew, the vulnerability, etc.  Not too shabby imo.  AVP-R...eh...yeah.

In AVP the characters sucked and are forgettable. In AVP:R the characters sucked and were annoying.

The biggest failing is that they are so overtly paint by the numbers in both films. Stock as f**k.

There was one moment in all of the original AVP that I enjoyed. The Beaker bit. "Ya know, like the muppet." And that wasn't even in the theatrical cut of the movie! The one bit of characterization for Verheiden and Miller and you cut it out?

There was more characterisation between Verheiden and Miller - it provided some rare interesting character dynamics in generally dull lot.  Problem was Verheiden didn't really have any reason to be a surly arsehole.  He just was.  And since he was a minor supporting character, he wasn't going to get any backstory or development.

They also give the most believable and best performance, then are dispatched. Sad, the potential.

The idea of a changing Labyrinth with Aliens inside is ingenious enough on it's own that it could've carried a whole film on that premise alone.

For a movie that doesn't even got for 100 minutes, they could've easily had another 10 minutes of pyramid shenanigans and actually used the first 40 minutes to give the characters something resembling personalities.

A lot of the stuff that is there feels very watered down. Like it was going for that snappy Aliens one liner feel, but then gave up halfway.

It missed out on the banter because all these people were strangers.  In Aliens there was a lot of back and forth.  In Alien you quickly got a sense of the friendships and tensions.  Same - to a lesser degree - in Alien 3 and Resurrection.

There's very little joking around allowing personalities and characterization to come out in AvP and what there is, is pretty wooden.

Quote from: Vermillion on Jun 12, 2018, 10:08:05 PM

Quote from: SM on Jun 12, 2018, 08:38:55 PM

QuoteI liked what they did with Alexa's (?) character

The fact that you're unsure of her name speaks volumes.  ;)

https://media3.giphy.com/media/87I8pKmdcAKw8/giphy.gif

I'm getting roasted for forgetting a name!  Thanks guys :laugh:

I actually didn't like Verheiden's character that much.  He seemed like such a throwaway character - possibly the chief throwaway of the mains.

Just to painfully explain the joke - it spoke volumes about the film and how memorable the characters are; not you.  :)

I think some of it was okay, the whole
Finding something to hold on to, their kids for instance to push them to escape and not despair.
Then some decent banter in;

"Like rats in a maze." Then the look Verheiden gives him, that said the dialogue was still trash but these two actors have been fantastic in other work.

I probably haven't seen it in five years though.

The first movie is definitely the better of the two in almost everything but the predator design and rating, though they went overboard with it in Requeim.

The first movie is around 1 hour and 48 mins give or take, well at least the unrated one anyway. They could have added 20 minutes to the movie to flesh the characters out more and make the life-cycle longer.

That includes 10 minutes of credits. The theatrical version is barely 90 minutes without credits. Needed to be way longer in the second half.

Honestly I think the 90 minute is ideal for something like this. Predator is roughly 90 minutes of movie if you chop off the opening title sequence(up to first spoken dialogue) and end credits.

If the film had done something similar to what you did in your script, where the Predators are basically setting things up, and doing recon before the actual battle begins, while the humans go through this The Thing esque horror scenario, and we ratchet up the suspense that way, I think it would have worked far better.

The problem is we get our first fight 55 minutes in and the movie's over thirty minutes later. The first fight is a bigger set piece than anything we get for the next twenty minutes.

Quote from: SiL on Jun 14, 2018, 09:04:37 PM
The problem is we get our first fight 55 minutes in and the movie's over thirty minutes later. The first fight is a bigger set piece than anything we get for the next twenty minutes.

It's a very lumpy and lop sided film.

The first fight should've been entrée.  Instead it was the main.

Big three minute battle!

Tiny skirmish, tiny skirmish, shooting gallery, tiny skirmish.

Big five minute battle!

Ugh. Should've kept all the close-contact stuff for the end and use those smaller scenes to build into it.

Yep.

And I think they paused too long with Exposition Boy and the flashback.

Well, you also have Grid grease two predators in two minutes, and then Scar just decapitates an alien like it ain't no thang but a chicken wannnng.


I remember physically slouching in the theaters when Celtic was taken out. "That's all the AVPing we're gonna get innit?"

Also, Scar is basically given no glory from that point on after he greases that one alien so slickly. It's like the moment Alexa enters his life she sucks all his skill.

He did that super slo-mo ninja twirl thing.

(I deliberately avoided both AvPs in the cinema)

Quote from: SM on Jun 15, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
(I deliberately avoided both AvPs in the cinema)

The audience was a big ass surround sound laugh track.

Goddamn.  Missed out.

Seeing the first AVP in the cinema might still be the single most disappointing movie-going experience I've ever had.

The only film I can think of that's rivalled it was Prometheus, and then only because I had such hopes from Ridley Scott.

Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 15, 2018, 12:07:35 AM
Well, you also have Grid grease two predators in two minutes, and then Scar just decapitates an alien like it ain't no thang but a chicken wannnng.


I remember physically slouching in the theaters when Celtic was taken out. "That's all the AVPing we're gonna get innit?"

Also, Scar is basically given no glory from that point on after he greases that one alien so slickly. It's like the moment Alexa enters his life she sucks all his skill.

The Predators in the AVP movies are quite incompetent.
Celtic beat Grid and all he had to do was land the killing blow but took his sweet time walking up to it and unsheathing his dagger, all the while the net was clearly melting from the acid.
Gil is more understandable as he was distracted and basically back stabbed, though any hunter knowing his game would or should keep an awareness of his surroundings....I bet Gil said "clever girl" after that  :laugh:.
Scar had some good moments but he too was silly at times, removing his mask in a temple with facehuggers loose is not the smartest thing to do, I mean he could have just blooded himself at another time. Then after being attacked, he is completely unaware of being impregnated despite clear signs such as waking up from unconsciousness.
Wolf takes the cake as he just kept making the infestation in colarado worse, he lets them out of the sewer and later causes a black out. Then there is that Predator in the beginning who not only missed twice with his gun but fired it in the first place, causing the hull breach.

I give Celtic slack. He didn't do anything City Hunter or Jungle Hunter hadn't done before him.

Plus he's supposed to be a youngin'. The glee, the thrill, "Oh man, oh man! I bagged me an alien without my shoulder cannon. How badass am I? And this scar on my face mask... Oh man, the dudes back on the ship are going to be so impressed I- Oh sh-"

I would agree but knowing your prey should make a big difference in your behavior. I mean I can understand a Predator taking their sweet time with a human, but a Xenomorph? A living weapon that is always dangerous right down to its very blood. If I was hunting such dangerous beasts, I would not take any chances, especially if they are just as strong if not stronger than I was, not to mention speed and agility. Too dangerous to play around with in my opinion.

This is a cornerstone of Predator personality though. Even Wolf, the supposed professional cleaner, could not help himself but to strip off his gear and wag his schlong around at the Predalien. It's who they are.

In fact it's that duality of the two species that makes them work so well together. The Predator is ultra alpha, ultra confident, incredibly strong, armed to the teeth, and prone to ego. The Alien is unrelenting, unstopping, unwavering, cunning, and resilient.

Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 26, 2018, 05:51:51 PM
Even Wolf...could not help himself but to strip off his gear and wag his schlong around...

I hope that's a euphemism. Or perhaps the darkness was hiding more than I thought?

Quote from: Huggs on Jun 26, 2018, 10:22:53 PM

Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 26, 2018, 05:51:51 PM
Even Wolf...could not help himself but to strip off his gear and wag his schlong around...

I hope that's a euphemism. Or perhaps the darkness was hiding more than I thought?

Oh, it's there.

and it has dreads.

Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 27, 2018, 02:24:03 AM

Quote from: Huggs on Jun 26, 2018, 10:22:53 PM

Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 26, 2018, 05:51:51 PM
Even Wolf...could not help himself but to strip off his gear and wag his schlong around...

I hope that's a euphemism. Or perhaps the darkness was hiding more than I thought?

Oh, it's there.

and it has dreads.

Ah, but can it say "turn around" like mac?  ;)

Quote from: Huggs on Jun 27, 2018, 04:23:33 AM

Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 27, 2018, 02:24:03 AM

Quote from: Huggs on Jun 26, 2018, 10:22:53 PM

Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 26, 2018, 05:51:51 PM
Even Wolf...could not help himself but to strip off his gear and wag his schlong around...

I hope that's a euphemism. Or perhaps the darkness was hiding more than I thought?

Oh, it's there.

and it has dreads.

Ah, but can it say "turn around" like mac?  ;)

"Over here. Overhereoverhereoverhere, HUHAHAHAHA, turnaroundturnaround, HAHUAUHAHAHAHA..... Anytime."

Oh. Dreads, and barbs. I know how much the deviant writers like to give all the sci-fi alien dudes barbs and strange shapes. So, barbs, dreads.... OHH... MANDIBLES. IT HAS MANDIBLES.

Don't Predator reproduce with their mouths anyway?  So any unmasked shot is full frontal nudity.

The wolf dangle. A chestburster is gonna look at that thing and be like "quickly brother! run for the air vent!"

Quote from: SM on Jun 27, 2018, 04:31:38 AM
Don't Predator reproduce with their mouths anyway?  So any unmasked shot is full frontal nudity.

Quote from: Huggs on Jun 27, 2018, 04:34:21 AM
The wolf dangle. A chestburster is gonna look at that thing and be like "quickly brother! run for the air vent!"

This is what madness feels like.

Want some egg on that pizza?

Quote from: SM on Jun 27, 2018, 05:04:31 AM
Want some egg on that pizza?

SM, tonight, i'm taking a Red Baron personal pan pizza and putting an egg on it.



That folks, brings us to the button for memes and this thread. Right here. I found the golden egg. Here it is. You ready?

Quote from: SM on Jun 27, 2018, 05:04:31 AM
Want some egg on that pizza?

Two big eggs, and a predweenie. We'll call it, "The Chad"

QuoteSM, tonight, i'm taking a Red Baron personal pan pizza and putting an egg on it.

On a frozen pizza?  Yeah, nah, not sure that'll work.

Quote from: SM on Jun 27, 2018, 05:22:04 AM

QuoteSM, tonight, i'm taking a Red Baron personal pan pizza and putting an egg on it.

On a frozen pizza?  Yeah, nah, not sure that'll work.

Big things have small beginnings.

Quote from: SM on Jun 27, 2018, 05:22:04 AM

QuoteSM, tonight, i'm taking a Red Baron personal pan pizza and putting an egg on it.

On a frozen pizza?  Yeah, nah, not sure that'll work.

C'mon, what's the worst that could happen?

Quote from: Huggs on Jun 27, 2018, 05:24:18 AM
Big things have small beginnings.

Well, said, that's worth drinking to, i'd imagine.

Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 27, 2018, 05:30:36 AM
Well, said, that's worth drinking to, i'd imagine.

Quite. But don't let David do the pouring. You wouldn't believe where those fingers have been.

Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 27, 2018, 05:30:36 AM

Quote from: SM on Jun 27, 2018, 05:22:04 AM

QuoteSM, tonight, i'm taking a Red Baron personal pan pizza and putting an egg on it.

On a frozen pizza?  Yeah, nah, not sure that'll work.

C'mon, what's the worst that could happen?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CW61eOUWEAAkTv6.jpg)

Well this shit got derailed :laugh:

Well, for starters the core concept/approach was way off mark, the visual efects are the less important part of a movie so i will let that aside (actually the cgi in AVP was pretty good for the time).

They tried to reboot the franchises with the minimum effort possible, after what i assume was the producers watching Freddy vs Jason or something. They got low budget, a second rate director and casting, and  made a random generic movie that just happens to have Aliens and Predators in it.
Everything about it was generic and mediocre at best but the special effects. The plot, the dialogues, the characters, action scenes, etc. It still made money, so they went even lower budget, literally amateur directors, lower rate casting and etc for the sequel. The people in charge just did not care, just cared about making quick easy cash.

There was actually a GREAT thread about it from years ago here, called "Are the contrasts the real issue" which sadly never went as in depth as it should in its themes, but it explained how the concept of the Alien and Predator creatures itself were opposites, which is actually the perfect idea to make a good AVP story and what nobody cared to think about before making those movies.

I think the main problem, circling back to my initial comment, is the lack of thematic continuity with the original movies:
Someone HAS to watch Alien and Predator, learn what it all means, then see Aliens, Alien 3, and Predator 2 and learn how they continued the themes there, and then make a sequel of those themes clashing with one another. Is as simple as that.
Then, they need to spend 100/150/200 millon dollars in budget, make it R, and set it in anywhere but Earth/present time, because that defeats the whole purpose of the Alien franchise in the first place.
After that, make a good movie with good characters, dont make it about the creatures, is what we all want to see of course, but if you actually tell a good story meanwhile, not only the audience will not get bored waiting for them to appear, but it will make their appearances even better. If you watch any of the movies i mention, specially the first Alien and Predator movies, the creatures are very secondary, they are the embodiment of a concept and nothing else, not some cool monster we rather be rooting for instead of the main characters.

I think that pretty much covers it all, the creatures have lost its mistery and became a part of pop culture, but that does not mean there are not good stories to tell about them, is just needs the right approach and a good story.

over all both failed because of time period,,,,avp takes place after aliens time period,,,if the did that like dark horse 0-4 avp,,.. they would have scored
that was the biggest turn off for soooo many ,,why is this taking place in the artic current day instant fail even if the story was good, still fails
dark horse from the begining  put into peoples minds this would take place in the aliens time frame

when that didnt happen ....

I'm a defender of AvP, but I've always thought that money was an issue. Anderson had some grand ideas from what you can see on the special features (whether you think he could deliver on them is another matter entirely), but AvP was shot for 50p in warehouse in Prague.

It looks fantastic when you consider that part of it. Compare the resources of AvP to Prometheus or Covenant and it really does punch above its weight.

Both AvP and (dare I say) AvP:R suffered from lack of financial conviction (I believe the Bros wanted to do a Space Marines thing and Davis stymied that and they made it for 50p this time in Jerkwater USA).

Its fair to say also that Anderson is a diversive  (or to some "really shit") film-maker and the Bros never really had a track record to begin with... so I think both movies did really try - and ultimately failed. AvP:R moreso - its a horrid movie and in very poor taste when it tries to up the horror ante.

AvP:R was made in Jerkwater Canada.

And AvP wasn't low budget.  $70m was a decent budget in 2004. (https://www.the-numbers.com/movies/year/2004).  Not huge like some $100m+ flicks, but still pretty decent.

Where do they get their production numbers from?

Anderson said they made it for about the cost of Alien3, which was something like $20m less.

I've got in my mind as 60 which is what Box Office Mojo reckons: https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=avp.htm

I thought AvP was $60-65m until I read the above.  Same ballpark.

But I also had it in my head that Alien 3 was $65m.

Quote from: The Cruentus on May 09, 2018, 09:47:34 PM
I have been saying that in other AVP orientated threads such as the "which Predator is most bada**", a lot of folk are naming Wolf as most bada** for some reason, though it is is their choice but in my opinion Wolf was not bada**, his foes were useless. If he had been up against actual Aliens instead of those weird bobbing head cannon fodder in Requiem, he would either be seriously injured ten times over or just plain dead. If you were to define someone by the quality of their enemies then Wolf would be found wanting.

I remember being on here a few years ago and debating back and forth about this endlessly but I'll do it again! lol At least from my perspective Wolf was written to be an elite veteran and he certainly was. He's my favorite live-action Predator ever (MAYBE second overall to "Scarface" from the Concrete Jungle video game). The issue that you point to with his enemies being incompetent has to do with how the rest of the film was written and thus the character's execution in those moments. He was what he was meant to be you can't really deny that but you can say that it wasn't shown properly on film, which I do agree by the way they should have given the regular xenoes more to do.

Anyway as to why the films failed I don't think they completely failed in terms of the money they made when compared to their bugdget but they obviously failed to critics and some of the fanbase (though I've always defended them and honestly really like both though I know they're not perfect). I think both films had clashes of what crews and studios wanted and then what individual fans wanted along with admittedly not the greatest quality people working on them. We could talk about this all night lol Again though I really enjoy both and don't think either is nearly as bad as they're usually made out to be.

Isn't the way he's presented the way he's meant to be?

If he's meant to be an elite veteran why did he have such a hard time shooting at Aliens?  Or why leave a dead skinned body in the woods?

Quote from: SM on Sep 19, 2018, 05:57:26 AM
Isn't the way he's presented the way he's meant to be?

If he's meant to be an elite veteran why did he have such a hard time shooting at Aliens?  Or why leave a dead skinned body in the woods?

Again I attribute that to it's mixed execution and they had to make it a movie ya know? I honestly think the skinned body was just something they wanted in the film so it was there but besides that it wasn't his goal to do that but it came along the way, it is what he is...maybe a warning? Or besides the only ones that would even think it could be aliens is the Yutani group at the end.

You really don't think they still managed to have ANY cool moments with Wolf? At all?

Not really.  I think it would've been cool if he threw one of those laser projector things - but that wasn't in the film.

The execution determines our impression.  If he can't hit an Alien with his laser guided laser gun and destroys infrastructure in the process, it doesn't give us a good impression of his skill (maybe he's related to the dude at the start who blows a hole in his own ship).  If he's stayed cloaked most of the time and tried to quietly deal with the threat, only to be foiled, I'd think he was more 'badass'.  But he spends a lot of time not cloaked, and not doing much to hide.  He drops his gear for the final showdown - meaning if the PredAlien (may its name be forever cursed) had killed him and there Gunnison hadn't been nuked - he's just left his stuff behind, unlike the Predators in the first two films.

He's there to prevent an outbreak and cover his tracks.  He's not terribly good at it.

He leaves himself open to attack at every opportunity and only survives because the Aliens are too polite to do anything.

People try to relate Wolf stripping down to the original Predator doing the same, but context is key. The Jungle Hunter had won already and was f**king around. Wolf still had his whole job to do. He just ... gave up? I don't even know.

Really? We see more actual character from Wolf when he discovers the other predators bodies aboard the crashed ship then we do in any other film really (close second being Scar). Plenty of awesome kills that they do let him perform as well not sure how you can just NOT enjoy any of that at all. I'm not just blindly disagreeing with what you're saying either in fact I can't really deny some of your points. I would have tweaked the ending myself like had him activate his self destruct and than drop his gear and fight the predalien. But I don't know man through everything I just find joy from the character and when I watch the films. I just get past it because I love these things but I know not everyone can always do that.

Anyway we should all stop veering off topic lol

The self destruct was knackered during the fight I think.

Quote from: SiL on Sep 19, 2018, 07:34:42 AM
He leaves himself open to attack at every opportunity and only survives because the Aliens are too polite to do anything.

People try to relate Wolf stripping down to the original Predator doing the same, but context is key. The Jungle Hunter had won already and was f**king around. Wolf still had his whole job to do. He just ... gave up? I don't even know.

Yep.  The OG Predator was there for pleasure - not work.  Wolf should used everything he had in his arsenal to kill the PredAlien (may its name be forever cursed).  Not just chuck shit away.  The final fight is dopey anyway, but that added another layer.

Yeah, I've always found it really curious why so many people think Wolf is so hardcore.

He's not. He's only "badass" because the script turns virtually every Alien he encounters into a fool that conveniently forgets it has limbs and a tail with which it could attack while Wolf stands there holding it in a cool pose for the camera. It's the metaphorical equivalent of beating up someone in a wheelchair, and that ain't badass.

His design's pretty sweet, but as a character he's only good at killing things because the script is both illogical and so gratuitously tipped in his favour.

The adoration for Wolf is even more bizarre when people try to present his being a "badass" as the sole reason the film is good. If anything the way the film throws out logic in its attempts to manufacture a tough Predator hero represents why the film (particularly its script) is bad.

I never understood how anyone could like the movie or the character that much but everyone is entitled their opinions of course, now Wolf was probably the only bearable thing in the movie and when you got something bearable vs the whole trash that is the rest of the movie, wolf comes out looking better than he actually is. There is nothing badass about him at all, I as well you guys have repeatedly said this. Wolf really has no feats that put him above the other predators, in fact the recent Predator movie which is pretty mixed actually shows a badass predator in Fugitive, who starts his escape from Stargazer unarmed and freshly recovered from being sedated and proceeds to one man army them with initially nothing but claws, mandibles and cunning.

Agreed with HuDaFuK and the others on this one.

Maybe he's cooler than the average predator because he's not the average predator that's just come here to be a big game hunter but he's actually an expansion of the predator lore ("wow, they have dudes like in pulp fiction that go around clean up the mess left by other predators").

Except of course, he defies convention and strings a few people up for shits and giggles.

But aside from that - it's a neat idea. It's the only movie where we see a bit of the EU really - the predator homeworld, the caste system featuring Wolf as a "cleaner" (even if he's not really that great at it) and Yutani.

As I say - maybe the attraction is that he's supposed to be different and more skilled ... (although they don't do a great job of showing that).

As much as I like Wolf I know he's pretty incompetent at his own job when you think about it. 

Same goes for Mr Black. Despite his 'badass' appearance, he's pretty unimpressive when you remember the only kills in the movie he makes is killing the guy armed only with a shiv and a Predator that had been strung up and starved for who knows how long.

And he used his plasma caster in that fight as well. Mr. Black doesn't contradict what he is supposed to be unlike Wolf. We know the berserker predators are cheaters and thus don't engage in fair fights, except that one moment with Hanzo, so we are getting what we are expecting there.

I'm "sorry" for liking the movie at all and loving the character the way I do! lol Sorry it didn't work for you guys the same way. He's the best Predator on film we've seen in extensive action no matter the millions of nitpicks you have with the rest of the film. It is what it is and again it's unfortunate that I just enjoy something...I guess? lol

Also side note I liked the Fugitive pred too just ashame he was taken out of the movie so early. There wasn't much of The Predator 2018 I could take that seriously or get immersed in but for AVP and AVPR I did for one reason or another.

Quote from: Bloodee Jacob on Sep 20, 2018, 08:03:00 AMI'm "sorry" for liking the movie at all and loving the character the way I do! lol Sorry it didn't work for you guys the same way. He's the best Predator on film we've seen in extensive action no matter the millions of nitpicks you have with the rest of the film.

You're perfectly entitled to enjoy the film.

Like I said, I just find it weird when people try to claim Wolf is so hardcore, because he isn't. He might as well be fighting training dummies for all the resistance the idiot Aliens put up. What's badass about that? I mean, come on, the thing that does the most damage to him throughout the entire movie is a bit of metal he falls on lol.

Compare him to the Predator from the second film, who repeatedly wades right into the middle of big groups of armed men with only his blades and spear as weapons, and there's no contest.

Not too mention he just couldn't get the job done either, he misses a lot with plasma casters and is actually responsible for a lot of bad things that happen. Earlier in the movie, the Aliens were confined or at the very least were content to stay in the sewers for the time being, until Wolf came along and released them into the public and caused an infestation, the black out tipped the odds against the humans even further.

Wolf created more mess than he cleaned.

I'm sure the Predalien was planning on giving them an opening at a certain time anyway. And again I'm not completely denying some of these points. The writing in this movie obviously wasn't the best I would have handled it differently myself from scene to scene myself. However for me there were enough moments with him that just hit my geekspot I guess that's caused me to overlook it in the end and just enjoy that I got a Predator like this no matter how imperfect the movie he is in may be.

But the Predator you got was a useless blow hard ???

Lol "Useless" right. Anyway we could go in circles about this forever.

Yeah, useless. He has one job and never gets close to doing it properly.

Yes the elite veteran with a substantial amount of markings on his mask, visible old physical damage who has been through, survived more and is older than any Predator we've actually seen in action on film was COMPLTELY useless clearly and it wasn't just because of writing flaws....

I just don't get how as a fan you can't garner even a little enjoyment out of any moment with him.
(https://www.collectorverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/alien-vs-predator-r-wolf-predator-legendary-scale-bust-feature-200250.jpg)

Because he transcends the usual arrogance and hubris of Predators and is simply incompetent.

As has been pointed out ad nauseum - he's there to clean up.  He destroys the downed ship and the dead huggers and bodies of Buddy and Sam which is a good start; then he not only kills a cop but strings him up.  So now the police who thought they were just searching for missing persons are now on full alert searching for a potential serial killer.  His plan in the sewers was fairly sound in theory - though perhaps he was better off on the other side of those laser things.  That plan goes awry, then he destroys the power plant 'cos he can't shoot straight - giving the Aliens an even greater advantage.

By the time he gets to the hospital the infestation is out of control and would've been a good opportunity to just nuke the place.

Which he didn't do.

I will grant you that shooting the two dudes with twin shoulder guns was kinda cool.  But a couple of dead stoners whose threat level was close to zero doesn't make him a badass.

One could argue his Plasma Caster was damaged or malfunctioning a bit already hence what happened at the power plant and why he made it into a pistol, damage done a few times. Everything else you keep pointing to is a flaw of the writing which I recognize. However I just REALLY enjoy and even love what we did get to see of him properly which I think is more than you'll ever give credit for or at least for me as a fan personally it made me happy.

No one is trying to deprive you of your enjoyment, or denigrate you for enjoying it - it's just there's very little to give credit to.  As an entirely fictional creation Wolf IS how he is written, and if he's written badly, he's not a good character.  It's not like this was based on a true story and he was misrepresented.

Firing wildly into vital infrastructure makes him look as dumb as the dude who blew a hole in his ship at the start.

Quote from: Bloodee Jacob on Sep 21, 2018, 03:56:07 AMI just don't get how as a fan you can't garner even a little enjoyment out of any moment with him.

Because as I've said several times, it's like watching someone wail on training dummies, and that's neither cool nor interesting.

Coupled with the fact he's in a film that I literally can't bear to watch.

It's the kind of cool some seem to enjoy, but like many I think it detracts of the actual role he was supposed to play. Things might have been worse than he anticipated, but then stuff needed to be written differently.

They went for classic small town horror and ended up with a rather cheap looking and feeling so so sequel.

I like Wolf, but I think he didn't get the film he needed.

Quote from: HuDaFuK on Sep 20, 2018, 08:17:23 AM

Quote from: Bloodee Jacob on Sep 20, 2018, 08:03:00 AMI'm "sorry" for liking the movie at all and loving the character the way I do! lol Sorry it didn't work for you guys the same way. He's the best Predator on film we've seen in extensive action no matter the millions of nitpicks you have with the rest of the film.

You're perfectly entitled to enjoy the film.

Like I said, I just find it weird when people try to claim Wolf is so hardcore, because he isn't. He might as well be fighting training dummies for all the resistance the idiot Aliens put up. What's badass about that? I mean, come on, the thing that does the most damage to him throughout the entire movie is a bit of metal he falls on lol.

Compare him to the Predator from the second film, who repeatedly wades right into the middle of big groups of armed men with only his blades and spear as weapons, and there's no contest.

There are two things in common between Pussyface and Wolf. Both are predators and both tend to drop their stuff around. But when it comes to skills, Pussy would grind Wolf into pavement.

Super Predators are harder to compare. They are more of poachers then hunters. They don`t play by the rules, except maybe Birdface,but when he did it ended in draw.

Quote from: Bloodee Jacob on Sep 21, 2018, 03:56:07 AM
Yes the elite veteran with a substantial amount of markings on his mask, visible old physical damage who has been through, survived more and is older than any Predator we've actually seen in action on film was COMPLTELY useless clearly and it wasn't just because of writing flaws....

I just don't get how as a fan you can't garner even a little enjoyment out of any moment with him.
(https://www.collectorverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/alien-vs-predator-r-wolf-predator-legendary-scale-bust-feature-200250.jpg)

All those markings and past, as well as his status as a cleaner are just background information that Wolf fails to live up to on screen and he is no where near the oldest Predator on screen, Greyback is probably just as old if not older and the Elder from the first AVP is definitely older than he is if those wrinkles are any indication.

I have said this repeatedly but one can be defined by the quality of their enemies. If Wolf's enemies are retarded aliens who forget their claws and a tail, and act extremely incompetent, how does that make Wolf a badass? Would you be badass if you beat up a child or a parapalegic? No you wouldn't be. Wolf was up against crap that sometimes didn't even fight back and so he proves nothing.
I get you like him and we are not saying you shouldn't and admittedly he is one of the more entertaining parts of that crapfest but objectively, he is one of the most incompetent predators about and there is nothing badass about him.

Quote from: Bloodee Jacob on Sep 21, 2018, 03:56:07 AM
Yes the elite veteran with a substantial amount of markings on his mask, visible old physical damage who has been through, survived more and is older than any Predator we've actually seen in action on film was COMPLTELY useless clearly and it wasn't just because of writing flaws....

Considering what we see in the film, his character could just as easily be a Special Needs Predator who was playing in his parents' chair and decided to answer the distress call before anyone noticed he was missing. It would be entirely in keeping with how we see him act. Acid damage could just as easily be a sign of his incompetence. Scarred helmet? Isn't necessarily his. Considering how he acts through the film, it's amazing he gets out of the lake without drowning.

QuoteI just don't get how as a fan you can't garner even a little enjoyment out of any moment with him.

Because he's f**king useless. It's that simple. He doesn't do shit the entire movie but pose and look cool in some shots. He survives only because he has found the one enemy in the galaxy more f**king useless than he is.

I'm not saying don't like it. If you enjoy it, great! I'm not going to try to stop you.

But he is f**king useless and it's a demonstrable fact going by what we see in the film.

Eh, a job's a job. And it's not his fault the aliens were acting the way they were. How could he have known they would be less than challenging? Still, I have to give him sac points for walking into that sewer and that hospital hive. There were supposed to be actual xenomorphs in there, afterall. And a predalien. Say what you will about wolf, but guts wasn't his problem.

I prefer to look at his inability to properly contain the xenomorph infestation this way:

It's a xenomorph infestation, it doesn't take long to be overrun. Especially with a predalien on the loose making babies faster than God knows what. If nothing else, it solidifies the point that they can't really be contained, even by the best warriors. All he could've done was detonate his wrist gauntlet. And he may have done that, if it hadn't been for the predalien.

But I freely admit, it had reached the point where he should have, even before he made it to the hospital. I can only guess he was trying to avoid nuking the place and bringing attention back to his species. If the military hadn't stepped in, there's no telling how bad things could've gotten. Wolf was just outnumbered. I can't blame him for not being able to cork that bottle. He may have been tracking down the one responsible for the procreation, but it was too late. He raised some hell though.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Sep 21, 2018, 10:30:31 AM

Quote from: Bloodee Jacob on Sep 21, 2018, 03:56:07 AM
Yes the elite veteran with a substantial amount of markings on his mask, visible old physical damage who has been through, survived more and is older than any Predator we've actually seen in action on film was COMPLTELY useless clearly and it wasn't just because of writing flaws....

I just don't get how as a fan you can't garner even a little enjoyment out of any moment with him.
(https://www.collectorverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/alien-vs-predator-r-wolf-predator-legendary-scale-bust-feature-200250.jpg)

All those markings and past, as well as his status as a cleaner are just background information that Wolf fails to live up to on screen and he is no where near the oldest Predator on screen, Greyback is probably just as old if not older and the Elder from the first AVP is definitely older than he is if those wrinkles are any indication.

I said IN ACTION meaning fighting, etc.

And again I attribute the issues with the xenos to admittedly mediocre writing. They really wanted an experienced strong Predator showing they overlooked a lot on both ends. Also calm down a bit, don't gotta throw a tantrum and curse. We're not arguing here or I'm not.

Also c'mon the masks were all meant to be his same with the weapons and why he was shown to be overlooking an area.

And Huggs thank you for giving a more reasonable neutral perspective.

QuoteConsidering how he acts through the film, it's amazing he gets out of the lake without drowning.

:D

Now I can't get the image out of my head of a different AVPR. Where Wolf drowns in the lake and the rest of the movie goes on pretty much the same.

Except the human characters would probably never "get to da choppa!" in this case due to unoccupied Predalien and all that lol

Quote from: Bloodee Jacob on Sep 21, 2018, 10:07:12 PM

Quote from: The Cruentus on Sep 21, 2018, 10:30:31 AM

Quote from: Bloodee Jacob on Sep 21, 2018, 03:56:07 AM
Yes the elite veteran with a substantial amount of markings on his mask, visible old physical damage who has been through, survived more and is older than any Predator we've actually seen in action on film was COMPLTELY useless clearly and it wasn't just because of writing flaws....

I just don't get how as a fan you can't garner even a little enjoyment out of any moment with him.
(https://www.collectorverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/alien-vs-predator-r-wolf-predator-legendary-scale-bust-feature-200250.jpg)

All those markings and past, as well as his status as a cleaner are just background information that Wolf fails to live up to on screen and he is no where near the oldest Predator on screen, Greyback is probably just as old if not older and the Elder from the first AVP is definitely older than he is if those wrinkles are any indication.

I said IN ACTION meaning fighting, etc.

And again I attribute the issues with the xenos to admittedly mediocre writing. They really wanted an experienced strong Predator showing they overlooked a lot on both ends. Also calm down a bit, don't gotta throw a tantrum and curse. We're not arguing here or I'm not.

Excuse me? I don't recall getting angry or throwing a tantrum or cursing, so its best not to accuse others of such ok? If you like him, that is fine, no one is debating with you about that, it is simply his so called badass feats or lack thereof that we are talking about.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Sep 21, 2018, 11:15:20 PM

Quote from: Bloodee Jacob on Sep 21, 2018, 10:07:12 PM

Quote from: The Cruentus on Sep 21, 2018, 10:30:31 AM

Quote from: Bloodee Jacob on Sep 21, 2018, 03:56:07 AM
Yes the elite veteran with a substantial amount of markings on his mask, visible old physical damage who has been through, survived more and is older than any Predator we've actually seen in action on film was COMPLTELY useless clearly and it wasn't just because of writing flaws....

I just don't get how as a fan you can't garner even a little enjoyment out of any moment with him.
(https://www.collectorverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/alien-vs-predator-r-wolf-predator-legendary-scale-bust-feature-200250.jpg)

All those markings and past, as well as his status as a cleaner are just background information that Wolf fails to live up to on screen and he is no where near the oldest Predator on screen, Greyback is probably just as old if not older and the Elder from the first AVP is definitely older than he is if those wrinkles are any indication.

I said IN ACTION meaning fighting, etc.

And again I attribute the issues with the xenos to admittedly mediocre writing. They really wanted an experienced strong Predator showing they overlooked a lot on both ends. Also calm down a bit, don't gotta throw a tantrum and curse. We're not arguing here or I'm not.

Excuse me? I don't recall getting angry or throwing a tantrum or cursing, so its best not to accuse others of such ok? If you like him, that is fine, no one is debating with you about that, it is simply his so called badass feats or lack thereof that we are talking about.

My bad I'm on a break on my phone was referring to SiL getting a bit carried away. Meant to space that out more but there go my phone typing skills lol

QuoteWolf was just outnumbered. I can't blame him for not being able to cork that bottle. He may have been tracking down the one responsible for the procreation, but it was too late. He raised some hell though.

He did track down the one responsible for the procreation.  Then riled it up so it went on a rampage.

Quote from: SM on Sep 22, 2018, 05:55:01 AM

QuoteWolf was just outnumbered. I can't blame him for not being able to cork that bottle. He may have been tracking down the one responsible for the procreation, but it was too late. He raised some hell though.

He did track down the one responsible for the procreation.  Then riled it up so it went on a rampage.

Yes because it totally wouldn't have anyway... ::)

Your sarcasm aside, it might not have. Aliens such as queens are intelligent (or at least supposed to be, can't really say much for Requiem ones) and what queens normally do is find a safe spot to establish a hive and they stay there.

Wolf basically messed with a hornet's nest and released them all and forced them to move into the public. If Wolf was truly badass and competent, he could have ended it in the sewers since at that point he would have only been up against nine Aliens, including the Predalien. He could have just plasma castered them one at a time instead of trying to engage them all. Or as SM said, Wolf could have just used the laser grid to contain them, depending on how long it lasts and if he contained them all, Wolf could just sit back watch them kill themselves trying to get at him.

Why didn't he have a laser grid covering the exit anyway?

Or the grates and manhole entrances. He may not have had enough of them but if that was case, then more strategic placing should have been done. That being said, the bugs didn't escape until he blew a hole in the sewer.

Quote from: Bloodee Jacob on Sep 21, 2018, 10:07:12 PM

Quote from: The Cruentus on Sep 21, 2018, 10:30:31 AM

Quote from: Bloodee Jacob on Sep 21, 2018, 03:56:07 AM
Yes the elite veteran with a substantial amount of markings on his mask, visible old physical damage who has been through, survived more and is older than any Predator we've actually seen in action on film was COMPLTELY useless clearly and it wasn't just because of writing flaws....

I just don't get how as a fan you can't garner even a little enjoyment out of any moment with him.
(https://www.collectorverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/alien-vs-predator-r-wolf-predator-legendary-scale-bust-feature-200250.jpg)

All those markings and past, as well as his status as a cleaner are just background information that Wolf fails to live up to on screen and he is no where near the oldest Predator on screen, Greyback is probably just as old if not older and the Elder from the first AVP is definitely older than he is if those wrinkles are any indication.

I said IN ACTION meaning fighting, etc.

And again I attribute the issues with the xenos to admittedly mediocre writing. They really wanted an experienced strong Predator showing they overlooked a lot on both ends. Also calm down a bit, don't gotta throw a tantrum and curse. We're not arguing here or I'm not.

Also c'mon the masks were all meant to be his same with the weapons and why he was shown to be overlooking an area.

And Huggs thank you for giving a more reasonable neutral perspective.

How can you get any enjoyment from watching Wolf kill Aliens when it's painfully obvious the writers nerfed them so Wolf would last the whole movie? Why would predators even hunt aliens if They're this pathetic? The predalien had at least three opportunities to kill wolf and all three times he just smacks him with his tail instead of just killing him. Wolf isn't a badass veteran hunter; he's a mary-sue. And yet despite all the protection the writers gave him, he still fails at his mission. The government drops a bomb on the town and kills all the aliens. The movie didn't even need him. That's why he sucks: he's just in the movie to show how "superior" he is to aliens(even though there isn't a single REAL alien in the movie) just so predator fanboys can drool over him And drone on and on about what a great elite predator he is. Even though the movie itself never calls him an elite or show him display any skill.

If the film doesn't show him being a badass, then he's not a badass. It's really that simple. It's entirely irrelevant what he was "meant" to be, the film itself never once shows him doing anything approaching competency at his job.

Didnt someone once call him the steven seagal of predators? A chump who only looks "badass" when fighting incompetents?

Thats an accurate description imo

Educate yourself:

https://www.amazon.com/Seagalogy-Ass-Kicking-Steven-Seagal-Updated-ebook/dp/B00MLDKIU6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1538383336&sr=8-1&keywords=vern+steven+seagal

:D :D :D

"This book is for you whether you know it or not."

Lol.

its genius. I must get the updated version  :D :D