It's Official! Prey is Rated R!

Started by Engineer, May 17, 2022, 01:39:44 PM

Author
It's Official! Prey is Rated R! (Read 12,481 times)

Corporal Hicks

Corporal Hicks

#45
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 19, 2022, 01:43:57 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 18, 2022, 10:28:08 AMI've never found what the Predator does honorable. It's why I'm not a fan of the Yautja concept. They're in it for the thrill of the kill and the hunt, not honor. I know the Thomas Bro's said they intended City Hunter to have honor in what he was doing, but that honestly doesn't come across on the screen to me. Letting Anna live is just good wildlife preservation, not honor.

Letting Anna live or die would hardly threaten human population I think. Best to stick with the creator's intent!

Wrong name - I meant Leona. I can't stick with the intent because it's just not evident in the films.

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 19, 2022, 01:46:38 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 18, 2022, 12:06:55 PMI quite like the idea that they maybe have some messed up code whereby it's fine to butcher people who never even had a chance for no reason other than the lulz, but killing a pregnant woman is considered poor form.

American hunters do that now, less for lulz, but more for fun, i.e. sport. But they still follow what they perceive as honorable sports hunter conduct among them, sparing the young or pregnant.

I know you go to this example a lot, so I've got to ask - where are you seeing them refer to themselves as honorable? That is not a word that I ever see game hunting referred to as. Because it certainly isn't. Hiding in a blind to shoot a creature who isn't even aware you're there isn't honorable. It's just as much cheating as how the Predators behave.

There's no denying that the Predators have their own rules and conduct, but Predator and honor is generally discussed as akin to this romanticized view of Samurai honor, or Klingons and it's jut not a view I agree with or enjoy, and it's not a view the films portray, regardless of the Brother's comments.

Kradan

Kradan

#46
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 19, 2022, 02:37:50 PMI know you go to this example a lot, so I've got to ask - where are you seeing them refer to themselves as honorable? That is not a word that I ever see game hunting referred to as. Because it certainly isn't. Hiding in a blind to shoot a creature who isn't even aware you're there isn't honorable. It's just as much cheating as how the Predators behave.

How dare you, sir ! My late great great grandfather was a member of Honorable Order of Honorable Hunter-Men !

Voodoo Magic

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 19, 2022, 02:37:50 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 19, 2022, 01:46:38 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 18, 2022, 12:06:55 PMI quite like the idea that they maybe have some messed up code whereby it's fine to butcher people who never even had a chance for no reason other than the lulz, but killing a pregnant woman is considered poor form.

American hunters do that now, less for lulz, but more for fun, i.e. sport. But they still follow what they perceive as honorable sports hunter conduct among them, sparing the young or pregnant.

I know you go to this example a lot, so I've got to ask - where are you seeing them refer to themselves as honorable? That is not a word that I ever see game hunting referred to as. Because it certainly isn't. Hiding in a blind to shoot a creature who isn't even aware you're there isn't honorable. It's just as much cheating as how the Predators behave.

There's no denying that the Predators have their own rules and conduct, but Predator and honor is generally discussed as akin to this romanticized view of Samurai honor, or Klingons and it's jut not a view I agree with or enjoy, and it's not a view the films portray, regardless of the Brother's comments.

Just an example on Quora one hunter asking which way to hunt a bear is more honorable, with a bow or a gun. There's of course anti-honor & anti-hunting views that eventually turn the question into a debate (which the world wide web will bring to you.) But just remember, I'm not asking you to agree with these views, just that some hunters HAVE these views.

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-more-honorable-to-hunt-large-animals-with-a-spear-or-bow-and-arrow-than-with-a-gun

Here are some early pro honor examples, that are treating the question with legitimacy:

"Sometimes wounded game is lost, never found, and dies in some quiet hiding place, unharvested and wasted. That is very dishonorable."

"It is more honorable to pursue animals in a fashion that ensures a quick humane kill."

"The most honorable hunter is the one who kills cleanly, with a minimum of suffering to his prey"


The problem here to me is when one takes the honorable hunting ideology and applys it to what one personally thinks is honorable. You're not removing yourself out of your own headspace.

Deer hunters today in America wear camouflage, hide in elevated areas and use high powered scoped rifles or compound bows to take out unsuspecting bucks. You might say, where the f*ck is the honor in that?? And I agree. But these human hunters that follow code, don't shoot fawns (young deer), don't shoot pregnant hind (females) feel they are honorable hunters... even when using arrows that give the deer a painful death. They also feel they are honoring their kill if they either 1) harvest it for meat, 2) wear its blood on their face, 3) turn their kill into a trophy, or all three. If you were a baby deer and they did this to your father, you'd think it was sadistic too!

Some "honorable" human hunters even hunt with knives versus guns or bows. Brutal.

Again you have to stop reconciling it with what you think is honorable. A fisherman will put a hook in a fish's mouth, reel it on for 10 minutes, then when they discover the fish has eggs, dehook it and throw it back in the water, thinking they're doing the honorable thing, the right thing, even though they tortured it for 10 minutes and the fish still might die as a result. Imagine that fish was a relative. That's the perspective your taking.

I think we need to put it in context with how some human hunters feel, not how we personally feel about it.

And remember, honor also just means adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct. It doesn't always mean the way of the Samurai. :)


Mr.Turok

Mr.Turok

#48
To piggy back on Voodoo's comment, honor is also subjective at times. Even the Samurai, where all of this has inspiration from, had their interpretation of what honor is. Some believe in protecting the people while others believed in being loyal to their Shogun. In the 13th century, Hōjō Shigetoki wrote: "When one is serving officially or in the master's court, he should not think of a hundred or a thousand people, but should consider only the importance of the master." The feudal lord Asakura Yoshikage (1428–1481) wrote: "In the fief of the Asakura, one should not determine hereditary chief retainers. A man should be assigned according to his ability and loyalty." Asakura also observed that the successes of his father were obtained by the kind treatment of the warriors and common people living in domain. By his civility, "all were willing to sacrifice their lives for him and become his allies."

We can even look at knights during the medieval period who also had the same ideas of upholding the law and protecting the common people as being honorable but also alot of them believe that staying true to the King and Church only is the truth path of honor, despite the code of Chivalry being a teaching that inspires to do good regardless. Not to mention, some of its codes aren't really honorable? "Show no mercy to the Infidel. Do not hesitate to make war with them." is one of the codes, so if someone is of a different religion, be the person an elder, child, or pregnant woman, its ok to slay them and wage war on them for believing in a different god than you? Seems like knights aren't honorable at all if the interpretation of that code is what its supposed to be.

So going back to all of this, it does make sense to the Predator's culture of having this code of honor and acting on things that doesn't seem honorable to us being that its from their own alien moral viewpoint that we cannot comprehend or even agree because we aren't them. Even our own cultures in past histories can't see eye to eye on what is honor so this simply follows the reality of the world's many ideological conflicts, in which this piece of fiction takes inspiration from. 

Voodoo Magic

Without getting very specific, just the honor killings that occur in some of today's cultures, and what some consider dishonorable, is unimaginable to me, yet it exists.

Corporal Hicks

Corporal Hicks

#50
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 19, 2022, 03:56:47 PMAnd remember, honor also just means adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct. It doesn't always mean the way of the Samurai. :)

I see. You're acquainting honorable to be following their rules. I'm sure in that case we can call the Predator's honorable. They very clearly have their own rules of conduct and their ability to follow those is not what I've ever disagreed with. It's the idea of them being Klingons or the Yautja - and generally that's the kind of honor people are talking about when discussing the Predator and it's that interpretation I disagree with. I continue to stand by the film Predators are not portrayed as the Yautja or the Klingons.

Engineer

Engineer

#51
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 19, 2022, 03:56:47 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 19, 2022, 02:37:50 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 19, 2022, 01:46:38 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 18, 2022, 12:06:55 PMI quite like the idea that they maybe have some messed up code whereby it's fine to butcher people who never even had a chance for no reason other than the lulz, but killing a pregnant woman is considered poor form.

American hunters do that now, less for lulz, but more for fun, i.e. sport. But they still follow what they perceive as honorable sports hunter conduct among them, sparing the young or pregnant.

I know you go to this example a lot, so I've got to ask - where are you seeing them refer to themselves as honorable? That is not a word that I ever see game hunting referred to as. Because it certainly isn't. Hiding in a blind to shoot a creature who isn't even aware you're there isn't honorable. It's just as much cheating as how the Predators behave.

There's no denying that the Predators have their own rules and conduct, but Predator and honor is generally discussed as akin to this romanticized view of Samurai honor, or Klingons and it's jut not a view I agree with or enjoy, and it's not a view the films portray, regardless of the Brother's comments.

Just an example on Quora one hunter asking which way to hunt a bear is more honorable, with a bow or a gun. There's of course anti-honor & anti-hunting views that eventually turn the question into a debate (which the world wide web will bring to you.) But just remember, I'm not asking you to agree with these views, just that some hunters HAVE these views.

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-more-honorable-to-hunt-large-animals-with-a-spear-or-bow-and-arrow-than-with-a-gun

Here are some early pro honor examples, that are treating the question with legitimacy:

"Sometimes wounded game is lost, never found, and dies in some quiet hiding place, unharvested and wasted. That is very dishonorable."

"It is more honorable to pursue animals in a fashion that ensures a quick humane kill."

"The most honorable hunter is the one who kills cleanly, with a minimum of suffering to his prey"


The problem here to me is when one takes the honorable hunting ideology and applys it to what one personally thinks is honorable. You're not removing yourself out of your own headspace.

Deer hunters today in America wear camouflage, hide in elevated areas and use high powered scoped rifles or compound bows to take out unsuspecting bucks. You might say, where the f*ck is the honor in that?? And I agree. But these human hunters that follow code, don't shoot fawns (young deer), don't shoot pregnant hind (females) feel they are honorable hunters... even when using arrows that give the deer a painful death. They also feel they are honoring their kill if they either 1) harvest it for meat, 2) wear its blood on their face, 3) turn their kill into a trophy, or all three. If you were a baby deer and they did this to your father, you'd think it was sadistic too!

Some "honorable" human hunters even hunt with knives versus guns or bows. Brutal.

Again you have to stop reconciling it with what you think is honorable. A fisherman will put a hook in a fish's mouth, reel it on for 10 minutes, then when they discover the fish has eggs, dehook it and throw it back in the water, thinking they're doing the honorable thing, the right thing, even though they tortured it for 10 minutes and the fish still might die as a result. Imagine that fish was a relative. That's the perspective your taking.

I think we need to put it in context with how some human hunters feel, not how we personally feel about it.

And remember, honor also just means adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct. It doesn't always mean the way of the Samurai. :)



I get what you're saying here and I don't really disagree. I'm a fishermen and a follow some strict rules. Many of them being laws. For example, if my hook wasn't in the fish's mouth and it was in its tail or something, I toss it back because it wasn't a fair/lawful catch. I didn't trick the fish into taking my bait, it just ran into my hook. Many times, the laws about fishing aren't that enforceable; you're out in the wilderness, isolated, and unless a Fish&Game Warden happens to walk by they're kind of trusting you to follow the established laws. I guess you'd call that "being on the honor system" but I've just never thought about myself as being "honorable" when I fish, just being a "good sport." I suppose it's the same thing, just never thought about it that way I guess...

(PS. In my 37 years of fishing, I've never seen a Fish&Game Warden patrolling nearby, for the record. I still follow the laws though; they exist for a reason and I respect that)

Kailem

Kailem

#52
I've always taken it that the Predators are "honourable", but not in the way they we would consider someone who might be thought of as "honourable" to be.

City Hunter slaughters a bunch of civilians in that subway car who have no idea who or what he is, or what's even going on. They're not soldiers, they're not heavily armed, but they are armed nonetheless and so to him they're fair game. Likewise Predators are shown to be totally cool with blasting people in the back while invisible, which at the very least would seem to most of us like a pretty cheap move if not a downright "dishonourable" one by our understanding of the term.

But they definitely have a code that they're shown to follow, and I think it's there where things like "honour" and "sporting conduct" etc. start to blend together. Greyback allowing Harrigan to live and even gifting him a trophy for besting City Hunter definitely comes off as a show of respect and acknowledgement of his achievement from one warrior to another, rather than just a set "kill Pred get gun" law that they've got written down somewhere. So it's the reasoning behind that code where I think a lot of people get the "honour" part from.

So it's stuff like that which helps make them such compelling characters. They're brutal and sadistic on the one hand, with weapons and tactics that are just straight-up nasty in a lot of cases, but (nine times out of ten) they're also not just in it simply to kill everyone and everything they find like your average space monster.

Engineer

Engineer

#53
It's very possible different clans follow different rules of the hunt too

Kailem

Kailem

#54
Yeah I remember that was going to be a thing with the "Berserkers" in the early drafts of Predators, but they pretty much completely dialled that back for the finished film.

Voodoo Magic

Voodoo Magic

#55
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 20, 2022, 07:45:45 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 19, 2022, 03:56:47 PMAnd remember, honor also just means adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct. It doesn't always mean the way of the Samurai. :)

I see. You're acquainting honorable to be following their rules. I'm sure in that case we can call the Predator's honorable. They very clearly have their own rules of conduct and their ability to follow those is not what I've ever disagreed with.

Well, also I'm saying one can't define honor universally. Being honorable means different things to different people and their surrounding culture usually defines it, regardless if we may (looking from the outside) find their honor system brutal and/or dishonorable.

QuoteIt's the idea of them being Klingons or the Yautja - and generally that's the kind of honor people are talking about when discussing the Predator and it's that interpretation I disagree with. I continue to stand by the film Predators are not portrayed as the Yautja or the Klingons.

I think logically Predators can certainly behave similar to Klingons among & to each other, but not usually extend to the unworthy, impure creatures they hunt.


May 22, 2022, 07:16:01 AM

Quote from: Kailem on May 20, 2022, 05:10:54 PMSo it's stuff like that which helps make them such compelling characters. They're brutal and sadistic on the one hand, with weapons and tactics that are just straight-up nasty in a lot of cases, but (nine times out of ten) they're also not just in it simply to kill everyone and everything they find like your average space monster.

And that's why I am a Predator fan, and a die-hard "Predator 2" lover!

The Shuriken

Meh I always liked the "code". I enjoy the Predators as both monstrous villains, and maybe lesser evils or anti-heroes.

funk_master_chunk

I'm surprised people thought this was going to be anything other than R/18.

Even a 15 (not sure on the US equivalent, sorry!) would mean they probably couldn't show things like skinning, decapitations etc. - which are central elements to the story/antagonist.


The Shuriken

Quote from: funk_master_chunk on May 20, 2022, 10:44:54 PMI'm surprised people thought this was going to be anything other than R/18.

Even a 15 (not sure on the US equivalent, sorry!) would mean they probably couldn't show things like skinning, decapitations etc. - which are central elements to the story/antagonist.



Hey the theatrical release of AVP back in 2004 was PG-13. There is a precedent for it.

Voodoo Magic

Quote from: The Shuriken on May 21, 2022, 12:08:39 AM
Quote from: funk_master_chunk on May 20, 2022, 10:44:54 PMI'm surprised people thought this was going to be anything other than R/18.

Even a 15 (not sure on the US equivalent, sorry!) would mean they probably couldn't show things like skinning, decapitations etc. - which are central elements to the story/antagonist.



Hey the theatrical release of AVP back in 2004 was PG-13. There is a precedent for it.

Also mix in the unprecedented - our first Disney owned Fox Predator film, our first streaming-only Predator film, and producer John Davis pubically stating he wasn't sure what it would be rated.

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