As we've seen, the aliens take some of the characteristics from their host, but how much does it change them?
I think that it would affect size and some characteristics of the face, but not much else, nor behavior.
The runner alien from A3 was born of an ox (or dog depending on the version you watch, I like the SE better so im goin with ox, it doesnt matter anyway) and clearly was much different that the aliens we've seen before. However, I believe the majority of the differance was less to do with the species that bore it, but the type it was. It was born of a special 'queen' facehugger that birthed two aliens, a queen and the runner, perhaps it moved and acted different as a result of its job in the society being to ensure a safe birth for the queen.
Reasons for this? First, the hands. The hands developed in the same 4 finger fassion as all the other aliens (I know, it was six in A3, but I've just started counting as four since the new ones and if you count the conjoined fingers as a single digit, each alien from each film all had four fingers, avoiding a small and stupid plot-hole). The oxs hoof (or dogs paw) had no affect on this. This is just on example of how its clear the aliens have characteristics that are predetermined.
Further more the runner was without the dorsal spines. There is nothing in humans to justify that as a trait aquired from human DNA, so it is a trait of the aliens. However the runner was without, and since they are not from the hosts DNA it supports the notion that the different look and behavior was less because of the different species and more with it being a special type of alien.
Its clear that there is some assimilation that hapens during gestation, Im not disputing that at all, just the degree of change from host to host. Im hoping that the PredAlien that will surely be in AvP2 will have little different to it beyond a larger size, stronger, and the mandibles (i.e.: I hope they dont give it a smaller head and dreads ala the video games. I also hope its going to act with the rest of the aliens and behave like them, for the most part, not be a rouge alien going against both species)
I like the idea of a safe birth for the Queen. Sounds true enough.
I tend to think that the way it works is not uniform. It will vary a lot depending on the species.
Putting an actual scientific prediction on it sounds impossible, as we are trying to understand alien DNA. For all we know the "Blue Print Particles" in their body's are not even technically DNA.
That is how ALIEN they could be to us, so this would be very hard to predict in future generations of Aliens.
They may have environmental changes as well. Color of their background environment may alter their appearance like a chameleon. Look at the environments in the different movies.
A1: Lots of dark mechanical places, blackish grey alien.
A2: similar to the mechanical looking environment of A1, similar color scheme.
A3: Brown color all over, brown Alien,
A4: Mutation, but they did seem to reflect the iron color backgrounds a lot too, brown again. Keep in mind these ones were contaminated with too much human DNA.
AVP: dark Bluish pyramid, Dark Black, with slight tint of blue aliens.
OR this change may be totally due to something else, moisture levels etc...
We just do not know.
Now if lets say there was a world of Giants, with a facehugger susceptible organ, it would be logical that the adult aliens here would be equally gigantic. Probably even bigger than their host. It would make sense that they try to keep a size advantage over whatever their host species is.
This is one of the reasons why I consider the theatrical version of A3 to be cannon. If the aliens failed to pick up the trait of giant size on a world of Giants, than they are going to turn into smoldering piles of squishy acidic plop.
Some of the EU, such as AVP extinction says that only the regular adults can pick up host traits, but Queens are pure DNA. This is not cannon and just an assumption.
Now Going by the way the Queen looks and her function, I think that is reasonably safe to assume, or at least she mimics FAR LESS traits from her host. . The one in AVP was just fully grown, that is why she looked a little different, was more sturdy and bigger. To be conservative I am going to assume her host was human.
I for one assume the Queen's DNA (if that is even what it is), is about 99.9% pure, and that her overall size may still be affected by host type, but nothing more, and she would always pass on the full 99.9% of pure alien DNA to next generation Queens, which would still keep the purity. The reason to have her size be affected by host type is so that she keeps her relative size advantage as compared to any species world that she may be forced to fight for her life on. Even on a world of Giants.
This is the whole reason why even having a mild bit of DNA assimilation. To be able to survive on the world of, and hunt for your host species.
Could it be that there is no such thing as a full strand of alien DNA, except what is in the facehuggers? Maybe without any host DNA at all that is what the alien is.
So 80% of the what an adult alien is, and 99.9% of what a Queen is, are the only predetermined parts, and that is the DNA that is passed on to further generations.
Successive generations would just fill in those 20% and .1% gaps respectively, with whatever their host species DNA was, and so on.
This way there is always a consistent look to the aliens, no watering down of DNA etc...
Or maybe there are no DNA gaps at all? Maybe they all have pure DNA, but the phenotype is affected by the host. The part of DNA that is passed on would always be there, but it assembles itself into specific phenotype by mimicking the host DNA pattern.
In the end they are ALIENS, so we just don't know. I kind of like the mystery of it, and would prefer no exact math is ever put forth as cannon.
Im right there with ya on that aliens may have a slight skin pigment ability to blend with their background for the very reasons you listed. Also that their size would be affected by the host. Im not suggesting that aliens are pure and will look like what weve seen no matter what the host, just that there is less assimilation than what tend to be the general opinion.
That the Ox (or dog) alien looked more the way it did because it was a special type of alien from the Queen Facehugger to protect the gestating queen, than because of its host, not to say the host didnt play a part.
True. We never see in the movie weather or not the alien is truly killing its victims either. I mean a lot of blood loss etc... but who knows there could be a coagulant in the alien's saliva that keeps a potential host alive, even in a messed up way.
This way even after a nasty head bite, the victim, although brain dead, or lobotomized would still be alive for a host.
The A3 alien may have even been starting a nest somewhere with missing inmates on the walls, just waiting for the Queen's eggs once they start hatching.
I tend to think the Alien in A3 was not the brightest bulb in the box, so to speak, as it should have just kidnapped Ripley, taker her and restrained her on the wall. Hid her from the inmates, and then just waited.
QuoteThat the Ox (or dog) alien looked more the way it did because it was a special type of alien from the Queen Facehugger to protect the gestating queen, than because of its host, not to say the host didnt play a part.
I never thought of the Super Facehugger angle. I just assumed the characteristics from the runner was down to it being a hybrid. From the dog. Faster, more agile and would have been like that regardless of what type of Facehugger it was.
maybe it felt it was safer to let her roam free in case she got killed resisting? Who knows. Maybe it was always just around, watching and waiting, protecing her, in a way.
good idea though about the coagulent in the saliva, cause their wounds in any movie would have made them bleed out. I thought that it was hiving them somewhere too.
Quote from: Darkness on Jan 30, 2007, 11:07:25 PM
I never thought of the Super Facehugger angle. I just assumed the characteristics from the runner was down to it being a hybrid. From the dog. Faster, more agile and would have been like that regardless of what type of Facehugger it was.
It very well could be, but since it was a special type of facehugger its possible it was a special alien that would clear the way and get ready for the queen. My theory works best when using the SE as canon as the alien was born of an ox and not a dog, since it compares little to an ox. Since the Queen Facehugger is only in the SE (and it is a much better version all together IMO) I use it as the canon version.
QuoteI just assumed the characteristics from the runner was down to it being a hybrid. From the dog.
That was the original intent. Going right back to O'Bannon and Scott on Alien, and echoed by Fincher on Alien3.
Quote from: Eidotemit on Jan 30, 2007, 11:07:59 PM
It very well could be, but since it was a special type of facehugger its possible it was a special alien that would clear the way and get ready for the queen. My theory works best when using the SE as canon as the alien was born of an ox and not a dog, since it compares little to an ox. Since the Queen Facehugger is only in the SE (and it is a much better version all together IMO) I use it as the canon version.
I still consider the theatrical to be the canon one. It makes more sense that it came from a dog because of the speed. Ox's aren't very fast. :P
Will definitely be interesting to see how the Predalien in AvP2 changes your theory about hybrids.
It makes more sense if you dont subscribe to my theory ;D
but ya, as long as they dont change too much I think I could keep it reasonable, but I doubt it. I've already preped myself to see some freak alien with dreads, and a more rotund head and whatever else.
Im betting htough, it will bury this theory o' mine
As much as I really love the SE of A3, I have to consider the theatrical version cannon, because that is the one that most people who have seen the movie remember.
If I called any one I know who is not as big of an alien fan as I, who has seen the movie, and if I ask them what was the host of the A3 alien, they would say "a dog".
Actually they would say "I thought you were a big fan of those movies, should you already know, it was a DOG".
I think that the reason Fincher wanted to switch the Ox bursting scene with the Rottweiler, is that the end resulted adult alien resembled a dog far more than an ox. Not to mention the size.
Assuming it did use an OX for a host, I would have expected maybe hoofed hind feet, and possible horns coming out of the sides of a comparatively even longer head, an even longer tail, longer jaws, a scary ass sort of a "Minotaur alien".
The Leadworks would have been its Labyrinth. Man if they would have had the bidget to do that!
If done with a bit of class I think that would have been cool as all hell.
They would still have to be respectful of the design enough for it to have looked alien, and not having picked up more bovine traits than a human hosted one gets human traits.
I would NOT want it to look like a carbon copy of the Hasbro Bull alien. More of a reworking of the same concept though. That thing looked dumb (just my opinion) because no thought was put into its design.
I mean if a dog hosted alien can walk bipedal than so should a Ox hosted one. It should at least have front "hands" like a normal alien, as regular alien hands don't really look all that human. The tail should be even longer, as an ox has a lot more of a tail than a human has.
The thing could have been almost as big as the A2 Queen (NOT T-Rex sized Queen like in AVP), but faster and more flexible/agile.
That is what I would expect from an OX.
QuoteI think that the reason Fincher wanted to switch the Ox bursting scene with the Rottweiler, is that the end resulted adult alien resembled a dog far more than an ox. Not to mention the size.
It was down to the ox burster scene being sub par as detailed on the Quad DVDs. Fincher contradicts himself over the issue of Spike - has has mocked the suggestion "Oh I know! Let's make it come out of a dog!" and also supported it saying it helped explain the Alien's extra viciousness. There was some resistance in some quarters due to similarities with The Thing.
This is what I made this originally to support just how much the alien takes from the host. If it was an ox, it would have had hoofed feet, or horns. Also if it were to have hoofed feet, why would it also not have paw like feet? That it was a roty, it made it more vicious. It possible, but first I dont support that the host has weigt on the mentality and furiocity of the alien, at their core they are the same. If the ox was the host it would havehad horns, but horns are the same type of thing s hair biologically, so it shoud have had fur if it were from a dog in this case.
Another reason I count the SE as canon, is every other SE is taken as such, why not A3. Its built into the minds of people that The Dragon was a dog alien, because its been called that for so long and the SE was only released recently.
My basic point is that aliens at their core are the same as other aliens, and have characteristics that will be shared by other aliens regardless of the host that bore them. Im not disputing that they do take from the host, as that is very very very clear, just the degree of which it affects them.
QuoteAnother reason I count the SE as canon, is every other SE is taken as such, why not A3.
In my experience the only SE usually taken as canon is Aliens. The rest are all over the place as to what people regard as canon. Also the directors of Alien, Aliens and Resurrection (and JPJ has stated his SE is not a directors cut and that the theatrical version is the directors cut; Scott said the same for close on 2 decades as well) all had a hand in putting their SE's or DC's together. Fincher had nothing to do with Alien3s and in fact his Workprint ditches Babe in favour of Spike.
QuoteAlso if it were to have hoofed feet, why would it also not have paw like feet?
Do humans have four thumbs?
So Fincher considers the theatrical version to be cannon, that is just one more reason for it to be so.
Even though I too like the SE better. But the DNA assimilation does make more sense that the A3 Alien was a dog hosted alien.
I have a feeling that the Pred-Alien in AVP2 will support this notion.
Assuming the theatrical version of A3 is cannon, then I assume size and general preferred locomotion are a given. Aliens hosted by Predators resulting with mandibles is also now known
Like I said earlier; there may be no absolute pattern to the way the aliens assimilate DNA for all host species.
Maybe there is a "set in stone" pattern for a particular species of host, but a new species of host may get you an unpredictable result; when comparing its result to other, already known, host breeds.
QuoteSo Fincher considers the theatrical version to be cannon, that is just one more reason for it to be so.
Never heard anyone connected with the films use the word 'canon', but in terms of what the Alien came out of, the Workprint that Fincher worked on had Spike. Fincher had no hand in assembling the SE that had Babe the Ox.
Quote from: SM on Jan 31, 2007, 01:23:05 AM
QuoteSo Fincher considers the theatrical version to be cannon, that is just one more reason for it to be so.
Never heard anyone connected with the films use the word 'canon', but in terms of what the Alien came out of, the Workprint that Fincher worked on had Spike. Fincher had no hand in assembling the SE that had Babe the Ox.
So in other words, Fincher filmed the movie to show a "dog breed" (or whatever else you want to call it) alien?
I always figured it was a dog hosted alien. I love the SE, but the host was always a dog to me, ever since I saw A3 in theatres.
No he filmed it to show a cougar like Alien that was fast and got around on all fours. He wasn't overly fussed what it came from as far as I know. He would've preferred the ox but it didn't work out that way, and he eventually accepted the dog. The change to Spike came very late in the piece and the Alien design by ADI and Giger wasn't conceived to have come from a dog - it was always intended to come from an ox.
The actual scene of it bursting out of Spike was filmed very late. Probably after the LA reshoot around the same time they reshot Ripley's dive into the furnace, some weeks before release.
Man, A3 is quite the pickle.
Viewing the "making of" makes me very happy we got a movie that did not ruin the franchise.
The domestic box office and critical response would suggest otherwise.
If not for Europe and Japan it would've been a complete dud.
What I meant by, not ruin the franchise, is that it did not add to or take away from the alien lifecycle, that can never be repaired.
It did not blatantly take away from the alien itself what made us fans love it in the first place.
Money wise it is a good thing for Europe and Japan.
Quote from: SM on Jan 31, 2007, 12:02:09 AM
QuoteAlso if it were to have hoofed feet, why would it also not have paw like feet?
Do humans have four thumbs?
...no. What are you getting at with that? I was saying that the aliens have certain characteristics that no matter what the host will come through. Head shape, the tail, hand configuration (ya, I know they were different in all the movies except A:R and AvP, and Alien and A3. I prefer the Alien A3 design, but since if you count each conjoined finger as a single digit, each alien from each film has four fingers, so I say canonically they have four fingers to avoid that little plot-hole) behavior, etc.
The runner was diffferent, in part because of the host obviously, regardless of weather it was ox or dog. Im saying it could be because it was a different type aswell, from the queen facehugger in order to protect the queen and get things ready for it. It was faster than wat we've seen before, and moved differenty, but was the all-fours because of the ox or dog? The Aliens in other films also crawl on all fours, even hang upside down and move and get in positions (aside from crawling on celings and walls) that are unatural and impossible for humans. The Dragon was also seen on hind legs going bi-pedal from time to time aswell.
The human born aliens had dorsal spikes. Im going under the impression that they were for balance, for reasons disscussed in the thread concerning them. Nothing in humans would justify those, so its something that the alien was going to have regardless of host. The runner didn't, because being on all four primarily, it didn't need them. I adressed however that it may not have been the host that made it go on all fours. The Human born aliens were very apt at moving on all fours, so if an alien came out that way because thats how the host moved, doesnt seem nesissary. So perhaps it was because this special type of alien to clear the way for the queen, gather host, and protect the queens host, was this way because it needed to move faster to be able to effectivly do all this by itself.
Quote...no. What are you getting at with that?
You were talking about Aliens with hoofs and paws, when the Alien bred from a four legged animal clearly has the same sort of hands as the Nostromo creature.
Quotebut since if you count each conjoined finger as a single digit, each alien from each film has four fingers, so I say canonically they have four fingers to avoid that little plot-hole
Thing is, the four fingers are often NOT joined into two in both Alien and Alien3.
I know that they clearly have the smae sort of hands, I was deffending that point.
and in alien and A3 the pointer and middle were together, and the ring and pinky were aswell, since they were seemingly coinjoined together (even when their fingers were sread those couples were always together)