The Rage War: A three part Alien / Predator epic by Tim Lebbon

Started by Perfect-Organism, Nov 18, 2014, 10:44:01 PM

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The Rage War: A three part Alien / Predator epic by Tim Lebbon (Read 234,005 times)

Corporal Hicks

Corporal Hicks

#240
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Apr 01, 2015, 09:07:31 AM
I'm not arguing the validity of the NECA backstories, as I find them questionable but I figured it was something worth pointing out. Of course, I am unsure who writes these backstories be it NECA, or Fox's in-house writers themselves. Either way, while I wouldn't take them as something solid, I figured it was something worth pointing out.

I'd disagree they're worth bringing up. I don't know for a fact but I imagine they're just written by NECA.

Quote
They are very different. You're presenting them as the same species when they are more or less an off-shoot. Noland said it best with his own analogy with the Dogs and Wolves comment:

"Anyway, there's two different types of them out there. Hmm? Now, they're similar, but they're different. It's kind of like the difference between dogs and wolves."

"Kind of like". Nolan is in no position to make a definitive statement about their genetics. It's just easier to say than "it's kinda like the difference between this race/ethnicity of humans/then that other race".

QuoteAs for the differences, well they are glaringly obvious. The Super Predators are implied to be taller, stronger, faster and smarter.

My boss at work is all of those compared to me. Is he a sub-species? Am I?

This group may not be representative of the whole ethnicity.

QuoteThat's not even touching the rest of the physical stuff. The cranial region seems to be exaggerated along with the mandibles. The skin is visible different on the face as well if Berserker is shown to be an example with indentations and rises happening in the skin. Folds here and there, all that sort of weird stuff going on. Also there is the foot configuration.. These guys have three large toes, where as the mainstream Predators have four or five toes.

Going back to the Dogs and Wolf comment.. Are they the same thing? They're cousin species. One just happened to branch off the other as it's been domesticated, the other remained nearly unchanged for thousands of years. But are dogs and wolves the same thing? No, they're not but they are closely related. Dogs and wolves are the same genus but they're different species.

Same applies to the Predators and Super Predators.


The African fella's at work also have different skin to me. Are they a different species to myself? No. It's ethnicity. Humans come in all shapes and sizes with all sorts of differences. The foot thing, granted but that's more than likely down to artistic license than any desire to make them some sort of sub-species.

You just read into it too much in an effort to isolate them from the films because of your dislike of the film and a concept that didn't even make it into the film.


QuoteI did not like the idea of the Preserve Planet. For me it takes away the idea of what the Hunt is supposed to be about. A Predator isolating himself in an alien world, putting himself in a challenging environment that he has to familiarize himself with, his prey having the home field advantage to heal and restock on whatever it needs.  The aspect of the chase, the aspect of fair game in a sporting hunt. And that's not bringing the "space samurai" honor concept into that.

For me, THAT'S Predator. Something which the first two movies did spectacularly, and could still do.

You remember that King of the Hill episode where Hank wants to take Bobby out to hunt but feels as if his son is too inept to do it, and then tries to make up for it by taking Bobby to a La Grunta resort where they have captured buck out in the open where the Hunters sit in posts and shoot them in the wide open? For me that's what the Perserve Planet provides.. A canned hunt.

And many Hunters out there really don't like canned hunts. Completely takes the sport out of everything. In a controlled environment where the Super Predators reign, it's not about the thrill of the hunt anymore, it's about bagging a prey in the cheapest way possible.

Depends on the context of the preserve. Our hunting preserves are controlled. Dropping a bunch of dangerous prey on a planet isn't controlled. And then there's the increased danger of desperate prey. Isn't there a saying about animals being most dangerous when they're cornered?

I get what you're saying - that it could make it less of a challenge but I disagree completely. I think it gives the potential of an even greater challenge, when these violent and dangerous people/creatures are fighting for their very existence on an Alien planet. Look at Royce for flips sake.

QuoteMore like open to the idea of, but it depends on the execution.

I'll give you that. But I stand by the opinion that Predators was a well done film. I would have reduced the number of new Predators to one and removed the dialogue homages but otherwise, I think it's a great film that I like as much as Predator.

Quote
How in the hell did we even get talking about PREDATORS to begin with. I know that's a touchy subject since you and I don't agree on the film and honestly, I wasn't even intending to go there but here we are.

Same way as usual. Hish vs Yautja. Then someone mentions the BSPs as if they are as originally intended.

RakaiThwei

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 01, 2015, 09:24:43 AM
I'd disagree they're worth bringing up. I don't know for a fact but I imagine they're just written by NECA.

Well, they are an official source. Not like they're fanon or anything. I just thought they'd be worth something bringing up, even if they are questionable.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 01, 2015, 09:24:43 AM
"Kind of like". Nolan is in no position to make a definitive statement about their genetics. It's just easier to say than "it's kinda like the difference between this race/ethnicity of humans/then that other race".

I thought that the Wolf and Dog analogy served fine enough in the context of the film in what he was trying to get across. If anything, I thought he was right on the money. Evolution has a weird way of playing things out, the slightest change in an environment could cause an entire species to choose to either adapt or go extinct. Sometimes, evolution results in enough changes to where a genus could result in similar but different species.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 01, 2015, 09:24:43 AM
The African fella's at work also have different skin to me. Are they a different species to myself? No. It's ethnicity. Humans come in all shapes and sizes with all sorts of differences. The foot thing, granted but that's more than likely down to artistic license than any desire to make them some sort of sub-species.

And I am a Hispanic with thick, straight hair and dark skin and brown eyes. Aside form the differences between myself, you and the friend from work you bring up, we're still homo sapiens are we not? Thing is you are trying to apply human cultural and biological qualities to a fictional alien species, who while having different tribes, are a completely different thing from we are.

It's like comparing apples and oranges. Like you've got a variety of different apples and oranges, you can't compare. Also Rodriguez himself even goes onto say that these Predators are a different breed, different species. But hey, I guess Word of God doesn't count in your book, right?

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 01, 2015, 09:24:43 AM
You just read into it too much in an effort to isolate them from the films because of your dislike of the film and a concept that didn't even make it into the film.

My disliking of the film cast aside, I am going by what is presented to me in the movie, through Rodriguez's statements and what material has been published in the official material-- confirmed or questionable. I'm looking ALL sources here.

Now if you want to discuss on how much I hate the film THAT's an unneeded discussion which I'm sure the both of us REALLY don't want to get into. Hell, I did not want to get into this discussion but here we are... Again.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 01, 2015, 09:24:43 AM
Depends on the context of the preserve. Our hunting preserves are controlled. Dropping a bunch of dangerous prey on a planet isn't controlled. And then there's the increased danger of desperate prey. Isn't there a saying about animals being most dangerous when they're cornered?

An animal is most dangerous when cornered... But how dangerous is said animal when the Hunter has weaponry which is perhaps equivalent to military grade weaponry, even by Predator standards? I mean those Super Predators did have upgraded weaponry according to Noland.

As for cornering an animal to make it's most dangerous.. same thing could be done on a hunt in the wilderness. Or in the Predator's case, off-world and on the prey's home turf.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 01, 2015, 09:24:43 AM
I get what you're saying - that it could make it less of a challenge but I disagree completely. I think it gives the potential of an even greater challenge, when these violent and dangerous people/creatures are fighting for their very existence on an Alien planet. Look at Royce for flips sake.

And I am glad that you get what I am saying but I disagree with completely with your view. I've already mentioned my reasons, and I don't feel like I need to re-state them again. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 01, 2015, 09:24:43 AM
I'll give you that. But I stand by the opinion that Predators was a well done film. I would have reduced the number of new Predators to one and removed the dialogue homages but otherwise, I think it's a great film that I like as much as Predator.

I still stand my opinion that PREDATORS was a terrible movie. I've seen it five times, tried to watch it a sixth. You can't say I didn't give the movie a chance when I gave it five viewings to let it grow on me. I probably would've responded to the movie better had it been set on Earth but we would've seen the clan war between the two Predators happening in some other jungle. Or any other environment, like.. a desert, or caverns. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 01, 2015, 09:24:43 AM
Same way as usual. Hish vs Yautja. Then someone mentions the BSPs as if they are as originally intended.

It's almost six in the morning. Can I go to sleep, Dad?

(A playful joke)

Corporal Hicks

Corporal Hicks

#242
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Apr 01, 2015, 09:47:51 AM
Well, they are an official source. Not like they're fanon or anything. I just thought they'd be worth something bringing up, even if they are questionable.

They're only figures. It's not like they're fully fledged stories. Granted, the content has to be approved by Fox but it's still only a few paragraphs to sell a figure. Nothing more.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 01, 2015, 09:24:43 AM
I thought that the Wolf and Dog analogy served fine enough in the context of the film in what he was trying to get across. If anything, I thought he was right on the money. Evolution has a weird way of playing things out, the slightest change in an environment could cause an entire species to choose to either adapt or go extinct. Sometimes, evolution results in enough changes to where a genus could result in similar but different species.

And I am a Hispanic with thick, straight hair and dark skin and brown eyes. Aside form the differences between myself, you and the friend from work you bring up, we're still homo sapiens are we not? Thing is you are trying to apply human cultural and biological qualities to a fictional alien species, who while having different tribes, are a completely different thing from we are.

It's like comparing apples and oranges. Like you've got a variety of different apples and oranges, you can't compare. Also Rodriguez himself even goes onto say that these Predators are a different breed, different species. But hey, I guess Word of God doesn't count in your book, right?

And the thing is you're also trying compare terrestrial biology to a fictional action species. And you whole heartedly advocate the anthropomorphization of the Predators through the Yautja culture. So I don't think that's a very good argument for you.

It's far more reasonable to assume that they are the same species, just different ethnicities. There are not enough differences to reasonably think otherwise. All of the Predators (aside from Classic) look different from one another. But I don't see you trying to make any of them a cousin species. You even talk about them being differing tribes elsewhere in the forum.

Different breed could be taken all sorts of ways.

But it's all moot, isn't it? They're a fictional species. Just seems to me to be due to your opinion of the film and an effort to remove these Predators from the fold.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 01, 2015, 09:24:43 AM
My disliking of the film cast aside, I am going by what is presented to me in the movie, through Rodriguez's statements and what material has been published in the official material-- confirmed or questionable. I'm looking ALL sources here.

Now if you want to discuss on how much I hate the film THAT's an unneeded discussion which I'm sure the both of us REALLY don't want to get into. Hell, I did not want to get into this discussion but here we are... Again.

And again, it didn't make it into the film. It's all well and good and interesting discussing various intentions that were discussed and bandied about. But trying to use them to justify your opinion is pointless because they're not representative of the actual product. For example, one of your frequent complaints - They may have said Predators ignores Predator 2 - nothing in the film contradicts it. At all. It is just a spiritual sequel to the first.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 01, 2015, 09:24:43 AM
An animal is most dangerous when cornered... But how dangerous is said animal when the Hunter has weaponry which is perhaps equivalent to military grade weaponry, even by Predator standards? I mean those Super Predators did have upgraded weaponry according to Noland.

Did we see anything significantly better? The Falcon, maybe. A Plasma Caster with a faster rate of fire - and worse accuracy. There's nothing to suggest that any of the equipment was better.

Quote
As for cornering an animal to make it's most dangerous.. same thing could be done on a hunt in the wilderness. Or in the Predator's case, off-world and on the prey's home turf.

And I am glad that you get what I am saying but I disagree with completely with your view. I've already mentioned my reasons, and I don't feel like I need to re-state them again. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

Evidently so.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 01, 2015, 09:24:43 AM
I still stand my opinion that PREDATORS was a terrible movie. I've seen it five times, tried to watch it a sixth. You can't say I didn't give the movie a chance when I gave it five viewings to let it grow on me.

Doesn't help if you're not willing to be persuaded by it. I can watch AvPR as many times as I am willing but if I'm not open to its good qualities then it wont make one iota of a difference to my opinion. That's not giving it a chance when you're so deadset on your dislike. Same goes for these debates.

Quote
It's almost six in the morning. Can I go to sleep, Dad?
(A playful joke)

You can go to bed whenever you like, Junior.  :) P.S Love that you have to clarify that - internet, ain't it wonderful for conveying tone.  :-\

predxeno

Wow, these posts got really long really fast.  I liked Predators too btw. ;). It went exactly in the direction I wanted it.

Perfect-Organism

I wasn't really offended by Predators at all.  Quite a likeable homage to the first film.  But I may not be picking up on all of the nuances as I am not a huge Predator fan.

Ultramorph

I'm curious to see how much Rage Wars changes the status quo of the universe. It could be bigger than Earth War in that regard.

The Alien Predator

The Alien Predator

#246
Quote from: Ultramorph on Apr 01, 2015, 10:07:50 PM
I'm curious to see how much Rage Wars changes the status quo of the universe. It could be bigger than Earth War in that regard.

Me too!

I decided to give the novels a try so I bought the new Alien trilogy and it has absolutely got me hooked. I loved how it explored human society a bit more in the way that films and games could not. Such as how Out of the Shadows mentioned humanity's excitement in finding simple life on one of Saturn's moons I believe it was. As well as exploring the dangers of space travel, mentioning how astronauts get trapped in space due to a hull breach and such. These tiny details really enrich the setting for me.

Then I also enjoyed how Sea of Sorrows established how the Arcturians are aliens (I always suspected that) and like you, Ultramorph, I am uber-excited to see more of the Arcturians. As much as I loved the Predators, this setting does get a bit stagnant if Oomans are the only sapient race they hunt. But thanks to the Engineers, this has opened a whole new window of races to show up.

I liked the Tetramands that Ahab faced in one of the Fire and Stone issues  ;D http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/ben10fanfiction/images/1/1f/200px-Wikia_Fourarms_UA.png/revision/latest?cb=20110506130804


I noticed some people were against the addition of other races in the series, but let's face it... there have ALWAYS been a few others out there even in the old EU.

- Reapers "Aliens: Reapers"

- Suom's tribe in "Aliens: Alien"

- That one alien whose ship crashed on Earth in the 50's "Alien: Earth Angel" or something like that.

- That giant lizard grilling facehuggers for a meal (not sure of the comic name) and while this may make the Xenomorph feel less threatening (as Reapers also ate facehuggers and ovomorphs) it goes to show that out there in the cosmos, there are bigger predators.


But what separates this universe from the typical Star Trek/Star Wars/Mass Effect trope is that while there are other races out there, human contact with them is rather limited. Heck, we had FAR more contact with the Predators than we seem to have had with any other race.


I did like Alan Decker's response to the W-Y woman when she mentioned a derelict Dog-Alien craft and ruins, he was all "so? We encountered loads of races" implying that by the 2497's, humanity has met or found quite a handful.

Now what I am really curious about are two things:

1: Would the Predators have their own "classification" like the Xenomorphs do? (Xenomorphs XX121)

2: When exactly will the Rage War be set? Do you guys think it will be the early 2500s? This is what I loved about Sea of Sorrows, I remembered the old SNES AVP game set during 2493 and wished to see more of that world and this novel granted my wish. Another game "Predator: Last of His Clan" is set during 2593 (the furthest we seem to have gone in the AVP timeline) and Rage War may explore the early moments of that century.


Anyway, sorry for my long post. I am really excited for the upcoming series and had a lot to say. I hope it does quite well for the franchise.

Ultramorph

Glad to see someone as excited as I am!

I too hope we get some 25th/26th century tech and more alien species. Hopefully Lebbon writes Decker well. He didn't do much for me in Sea of Sorrows.

The Alien Predator

I personally liked Decker, but yeah, there is room for improvement.

Jim Hooper from Out of the Shadows was a really interesting and fleshed out character, so Tim Lebbon seems to know what he is doing. In all honesty, while I enjoyed all three novels, the one written by Lebbon seems to be the most immersive and well written for me. I literally couldn't stop reading it and finished it in less than a week.

But the other two, I took it slowly. So I am quite glad that it's him who is writing the new books.

I wonder how the Predators will view the humans in this century. Some old novels apparently say that Predators considered humans sometimes to be too dangerous to hunt so they avoided some of our core systems including Earth. I wonder what this new novel will set up. Another thing that excites me is the human "military response" to the Predator ships arriving, we might see some space battles! I wonder how Marine ships evolved in this century.

Spoiler
We saw cool plasma warheads in the end of Sea of Sorrows.
[close]

It wouldn't surprise me if by this century, humans do become very dangerous so Predators would need to resort to their more powerful arsenal. Imagine if we see similar weapons from the RTS game AvP Extinction pop up here, or Tim could throw in some new high end gear that we've never seen before.

Also, Ultramorph, seeing as how you are an Arcturian enthusiast like myself, how do you imagine the Arcturians to be like? In terms of appearance and culture. When I search for "Arcturian" on Google images, I get "Grey Alien" type of results. I kinda imagine them to look a bit similar to Greys, bald and humanoid but not as small and skinny. In a way, I picture them as similar to humans but a bit alien which could explain the difficulty in determining their genders. I also imagine their technology level to be very close to ours, maybe a bit advanced but who knows. Some of the impressive tech from Aliens may have been given to us from our "Arcturian Trading Partners". Sea of Sorrows does establish that upon making contact with Arcturians (and learning of other sapient life) corporations such as W-Y boosted their technological progress by a significant margin.

You can really tell by the way things look in Alien and Aliens, sure a lot could happen in a few decades, but limited trading with other benign civilizations shouldn't be ruled out.

Ultramorph

I'm not sure how I picture the Arcturians. Not quite like Greys, but you're right, they must have something vaguely similar to human physiology for them to be sexually desirable to humans. I imagine they're probably reclusive, me don't interact too much with humans. I think they're probably slightly above our tech level, but haven't shared much of it with us.

Perfect-Organism

Quote from: Ultramorph on Apr 02, 2015, 12:47:43 AM
I'm not sure how I picture the Arcturians. Not quite like Greys, but you're right, they must have something vaguely similar to human physiology for them to be sexually desirable to humans. I imagine they're probably reclusive, me don't interact too much with humans. I think they're probably slightly above our tech level, but haven't shared much of it with us.

Hence why I've often suggested in older posts that Arcturians are made by Engineers.  If they are basically human-like then it stands to reason.  If they are indeed similar to us but different sexually, then it may make sense that the Engineers are conducting experiments in what is the most "elegant" form of reproduction.  Clearly the method shown at the beginning of Prometheus involved too much sacrifice.  I suspect that the human method of reproduction left the Engineers vastly disappointed in humans.  They may have ultimately found the idea of reproduction without sacrifice to be inconsistent with their hopes for what we should become.  It may be why they hate us...

The Alien Predator

You got some good points there. They certainly seem reclusive as they don't appear nor are mentioned outside of Aliens.

This is what makes this universe quite different from most sci fi, alien life isn't all open to contact. It's not a very united galaxy. Every race for itself.

I hope the new novel explores Predator interactions with other aliens. I haven't read it, but from what I heard, South China Sea honestly does it best. Mentioning past hunts and other alien animals and sapients. Someone on this forum mentioned how the Predator in SCS got his hoverboard from a fungoid alien, I would love to hear what the novel explains about this creature if anyone would like to share that, I would appreciate it. I am curious about the sentence or paragraph in the novel that describes that part.

And good point Perfect-Organism, on them possibly being made by Engineers. Like I said earlier, the Engineers are a great way of introducing new races. However, I am with Rakai'Thwei on Predators being a natural evolution. Perhaps their very humanoid shape could be an example of "convergent evolution" where life completely isolated just so happens to evolve similarly to another lifeform. My reasoning for this is that Predator as a franchise was not originally part of the Alien franchise so in a sense it's symbolic to keep Predators as their own thing even in the Alien universe. Arcturians however originated within the Alien franchise so they can be an Engineer creation.

If in the end, Predators turn out to be a creation of the Space Jockeys, I wouldn't really be too bothered by it.

Ultramorph

I agree, it's defintely possible that the Arcturians were made by the Engineers. The recent FaS comics showed that the Engineers have created other, vaguely humanoid species, like the four-armed alien that Ahab fights.

Perfect-Organism

I've thought about the Predators' relationship with the Engineers in the past as well.  I'm not sure how their reproduction has ever been (if at all) covered in any of the EU out there.  Ever since the Predalien meets pregnant woman scene in AVP Requiem, it occurred to me that the Predators have (get this) oral reproductive organs.  That reproductive system may have been something that the Predalien inherited from the Predators.

I think there was also a somewhat crude rereference to this in Predator 2 now that I think about it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23tmhlwVpp8

Anyway, that jives with what I have said earlier.  The predators may be yet another Engineer experiment in humanoid reproduction.  I know that the Engineers most likely did not exist yet in anyone's mind (who knows?) at the time of AVP: Requiem, but in hindsight, it is a good reason for why the Predators and Aliens were genetically compatible..

Does anyone know if Predator reproduction was ever addressed?

The Alien Predator

I remember seeing some concept sculpture for a scene that never made it into the AVP film. It was about Predators rising out of some stasis inducing goo in the nude. The "stuff" looked alien enough but it wasn't in the mouth.

But that is concept material. Who knows what official material would say. Some EU states there are females and they have breasts while other material states they are hermaphrodites.

The upcoming tabletop game has female pred units so it appears that Fox too prefers a gendered Predator race. South China Sea also apparently mentions females.

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