What Is Canon & Should We Care About It? Fting. Author Alex White - AvP Galaxy Podcast #184

Started by Corporal Hicks, May 13, 2024, 04:26:54 PM

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What Is Canon & Should We Care About It? Fting. Author Alex White - AvP Galaxy Podcast #184 (Read 6,536 times)

xShadowFoxX

Quote from: SM on May 16, 2024, 10:18:48 PMThe 'infection' forms the embryo.
Xenomorphine caught it tho, because in Aliens, Bishop specifically says "embryo implantation".

The Cruentus

In recent years I have gone back to preferring the embryonic version. The Alien creature seems too complex an organism for ooze to turn into a chestburster in such a short time. At least with a larval there is a base structure for it to work witanh, d there is more precedence in nature that I can think of from the top of my head. Speed still an issue of course. Black goo is just too macguffiny and basically whatever the plot needs to be

SM

Quote from: xShadowFoxX on May 16, 2024, 10:23:41 PM
Quote from: SM on May 16, 2024, 10:18:48 PMThe 'infection' forms the embryo.
Xenomorphine caught it tho, because in Aliens, Bishop specifically says "embryo implantation".

People have been trying that (very lacking in detail) line for years though, and it's been a non-argument the whole time. What else do embryos do? A human embryo is formed when sperm meets egg and implants in the uterine wall. With Aliens it's 'sperm' from hugger interacting in the host; resulting lifeform is implanted.

xShadowFoxX

Quote from: SM on May 16, 2024, 10:33:52 PM
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on May 16, 2024, 10:23:41 PM
Quote from: SM on May 16, 2024, 10:18:48 PMThe 'infection' forms the embryo.
Xenomorphine caught it tho, because in Aliens, Bishop specifically says "embryo implantation".

People have been trying that (very lacking in detail) line for years though, and it's been a non-argument the whole time. What else do embryos do? A human embryo is formed when sperm meets egg and implants in the uterine wall. With Aliens it's 'sperm' from hugger interacting in the host; resulting lifeform is implanted.
All that I can get on board with. But in this episode, White was suggesting that this sort of viral infection from facehugger to host and that the film Covenant basically confirmed that, which made my head explode. I think I just prefer the idea of this pre made embryo just being stored within the facehugger just waiting to be implanted rather than this viral infection which I attribute more to the black goo.

xShadowFoxX


The Cruentus

Certain species of Wasp and some other parastic organisim will lay actual eggs/larval? into a host, so there is a precedence for. Bacterial/fungal infection is also possible but I'm not sure if it has done anything complex, I may be wrong of course.

xShadowFoxX

Quote from: The Cruentus on May 16, 2024, 10:45:07 PMCertain species of Wasp and some other parastic organisim will lay actual eggs/larval? into a host, so there is a precedence for. Bacterial/fungal infection is also possible but I'm not sure if it has done anything complex, I may be wrong of course.
I was thinking the exact same thing, because wasn't the Alien based on those types of wasps? The idea of a bacterial infection as a sort of unintentional side effect I can buy into. Or a form of bacterial infection that protects the larva/embryo from human defenses.

SM

It is based on the Ichneumon wasp. The host in those cases is an incubator.  With Alien the creature is influenced by the whatever form the host takes so it's a bit different.

I'm sure I've said elsewhere that 'viral' theory has been fan theory long before White put it in a book. Though I don't recall the exact term 'viral' being used.

Local Trouble

Quote from: SM on May 16, 2024, 11:03:46 PMI'm sure I've said elsewhere that 'viral' theory has been fan theory long before White put it in a book. Though I don't recall the exact term 'viral' being used.

Didn't The Anchorpoint Essays refer to it as a viral mutagen?

SM

SM

#84
You might be right there actually.

EDIT

Here we go (I don't know when Mike wrote this, but Anchorpoint has been offline a long time now)

QuoteThe Development Theory

The current, and most widely accepted theory, suggests that the use of the tube-like mouth parts may not be for the depositing of an embryo in the chest of the potential host organism, but possibly a means of regulating TTXIR which renders the host unconscious and the introduction of a viral agent - which would then make the host body responsible for the creation of an embryo in much the same fashion that an organ may be produced through the creation and designation/specialization of various cells, via restructured genetic coding. Under such an idea it is easily seen how an Alien embryo would be able to adapt to varying host organisms, and vise versa. This idea would also better explain the positioning of the embryo in the host's mediastinum, when the Facehugger's mouthparts are known to only extend part way down the host's esophagus.

The use of the host's esophagus is still vital to the play of this particular theory. The esophagus' lining is a mucus membrane, which would greatly aid in the transmission of genetic material. Once the DNA restructuring material has successfully altered the host's genetic code the host body would then begin the development and growth of the I. raptus embryo as if it were part of its own physiology. In effect the host organism's body is being told to create the embryo in the "free area" of the chest by it's own modified DNA. An additional benefit to altering a host's DNA so as to plant an embryo is there would be no rejection of the embryo as it is now seen as part of the host organism's natural structure. For more information on this please see the DNA Reflex essay.

GreybackElder

Quote from: xShadowFoxX on May 16, 2024, 10:49:15 PM
Quote from: The Cruentus on May 16, 2024, 10:45:07 PMCertain species of Wasp and some other parastic organisim will lay actual eggs/larval? into a host, so there is a precedence for. Bacterial/fungal infection is also possible but I'm not sure if it has done anything complex, I may be wrong of course.
I was thinking the exact same thing, because wasn't the Alien based on those types of wasps? The idea of a bacterial infection as a sort of unintentional side effect I can buy into. Or a form of bacterial infection that protects the larva/embryo from human defenses.

There is such thing as the Human bot fly. It lays its eggs into a mosquito(the vector.) from there the mosquito will bite a human and then deliver the eggs into the bite wound. Then the eggs will erupt from painful lesions in the skin. Not too dissimilar from the Alien life cycle.

As far as bacterial or fungal like infection that may prevent attack from the host's immune system, it's definitely an interesting take. Usually when an invading bacteria overtake the normal flora of the host, infection may occur.



xShadowFoxX

Quote from: GreybackElder on May 17, 2024, 01:45:45 AM
Quote from: xShadowFoxX on May 16, 2024, 10:49:15 PM
Quote from: The Cruentus on May 16, 2024, 10:45:07 PMCertain species of Wasp and some other parastic organisim will lay actual eggs/larval? into a host, so there is a precedence for. Bacterial/fungal infection is also possible but I'm not sure if it has done anything complex, I may be wrong of course.
I was thinking the exact same thing, because wasn't the Alien based on those types of wasps? The idea of a bacterial infection as a sort of unintentional side effect I can buy into. Or a form of bacterial infection that protects the larva/embryo from human defenses.

There is such thing as the Human bot fly. It lays its eggs into a mosquito(the vector.) from there the mosquito will bite a human and then deliver the eggs into the bite wound. Then the eggs will erupt from painful lesions in the skin. Not too dissimilar from the Alien life cycle.

As far as bacterial or fungal like infection that may prevent attack from the host's immune system, it's definitely an interesting take. Usually when an invading bacteria overtake the normal flora of the host, infection may occur.




Bot flies are gross but they do come very close to the Alien in some form.

TheBATMAN

Another fascinating episode. I think the quiz will be a good addition. We do one on our resident evil podcast and it's usually the most popular segment. We get community members to submit questions each week.

Citixeno

I saw a pragmatic take in the comment section as a new definition for canon, as "What holds predictive power" over what we might see in a film or video game in the future. Especially where it might restrict what a future writer or director can do.

To me, that is really all that matters. Does it matter if Bishop Weyland in Alien-cubed was a human or a synthetic? Well, he was an android in the Colonial Marines video game, does that count? In so far as how that might restrict a future director? Highly unlikely. It won't matter.

Same thing for the events in comic books. Ideas might get taken from the old comics, but probably not more than cosmetic ideas like a director saying "oooh that looks neat, send that to the design team and tell them the monster in this scene ought to resemble that and come up with some ideas based on it." And this is in the unlikely event they even see something from the comics at all.

It's also possible that future directors will be allowed to disregard the events of movies that didn't do well in theatres. If you factor in the production cost, the marketing cost likely equaled, and the theatres taking their half, and the net is in the red, as in the movie lost money, then the studio execs could very well look at the whole thing like something they want the audience to forget going forward, and might even insist a director disregard the events of a film.

Basically, the only hard predictive rules are that we shouldn't expect something obscure from the Dark Horse EU or video games to show up, references to the events of movies that lost money, or anything from another IP to show up. As Alex White pointed out, they cannot reference anything having to do with predators when the license is only for Aliens.

So, what do I treat as "canon" for discussing what we might see in a movie? Basically, the events of Alien and Aliens.

I'm still allowed to hope egg morphing and alternate ways of alien reproduction, besides the queen, are shown.

Now that absolutely doesn't mean that we, as fans, shouldn't have fun speculating and discussing EU events in their own context. There is a lot of great stuff there for fun conversations. But we ought not pull hard rules from them and think they need to apply to anything a current author is doing.

We also shouldn't devalue something just because it doesn't hold predictive power either. Want to discuss the stuff in Aliens: Genocide? Cool. How about a video game you loved? We shouldn't dismiss a topic just because it's about something non-canon either. I mean, we could watch all that the studio sees as canon in under 24 hours, but it would take much longer to re-read through all the comics, novels, and replay all the games. So, being non-canon shouldn't mean less value to our entertainment or imagination or that it is somehow less valuable for discussion. Again, we just shouldn't think hard predictive rules can be made from it. In fact, in regards to the Alien itself, it's better that there are fewer hard rules and more freedom for creatives so that they stay unpredictable and mysterious.

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