Bishop in Alien 3 - Human or Android?

[maledoro]

He was a human. There would be no point in making the fake blood red. AvP just screwed up the time line.

Yep. Anderson wanted to have more than aliens to connect his movie to the Alien films. He went overboard with all of the cutesy-poo in-jokes like the dipping bird and the green computer lettering. Having Henriksen without an onscreen explanation was a bad move...

[VenomX]

With all due respect, Messrs. *snip* Although Bishop II did react to getting hit, more often than you realize, people have suffered that extreme of a head injury and had reacted less to it.

Oh I know it's possible, even my example with the broken leg lies within the borders of realistic possibilities. You're just missing my point slightly. I'm not arguing the impossibility of it, I'm addressing the likeliness. Most audiences who see those scenes aren't going to feel that's a way a human being would react after recieving such a blow. If he hadn't said that line "I'm not a droid", I think almost anybody would have smelled something fishy going on due to how odd it was. I'm just saying, if they had intended the audience to believe he was human, I really think they should have done it very differently, both with regards to Lance Henriksens acting as well as how the torn ear/cheek looked. Especially with the bizarre way in which the ear is sticking out it just looks like an "intended fake", sort of.

As I said I don't care on a personal level what he is, it's allright with me if he's human, but then I still think it was very poorly executed.

[maledoro]

All I can say now is that the converse is also true: if the crew wanted Bishop II to be an android, they would have played it up more with him suffering a massive injury and spouting white liquid all over the place.

As for what had actually happened, what would be a suitable alternative? Him passing out and then rolling credits immediately after? Him screaming for the next ten minutes as the recovery team cart him back to the ship?

[The Ultimate Predator]

Haha, good point.

[VenomX]

if the crew wanted Bishop II to be an android, they would have played it up more with him suffering a massive injury and spouting white liquid all over the place.

I don't think that's too likely since I'm sure they wouldn't just want to copy the scene in Alien, but one thing I just thought of is the fact Call has the same white liquid as Ash and Bishop in Resurrection, being what, 200 years later? I guess that would be at least a vague argument to suggest that androids in general probably have always had the standard white liquid. If they developed a more "evolved" kind with red blood (as I felt was probably the case when I saw Alien 3 and Res wasn't made yet), it doesn't make much sense why Call still stays more true to the original models.

Then again maybe Bishop II was simply an exception, it's of course possible to debate things like these and split hairs back and forth ad infinitum. Either way the red blood instead of white liquid is a good indication of him not being an android, but I still think the acting and directing seems intent on having him percieved as being non-human.

As for what had actually happened, what would be a suitable alternative? Him passing out and then rolling credits immediately after? Him screaming for the next ten minutes as the recovery team cart him back to the ship?

Yeah sure if they had wanted to change the script to that instead, but assuming the script was the same, he could have at least shown a bit more pain and trauma than "*grunt* I'm not a droid". Most people tend to freak out a bit when they have an injury like that, not to mention get a bit dizzy even if it takes awhile to feel the actual pain. So, yeah, having him for example drop to his knees briefly, and actually take a few extra seconds to regain his composure and then slowly get back up (with some apparent dizziness, maybe trying to hold the side of his head together with his hands, whatever) instead of just being fine and as perky as can be a split second later would have been better I think.

Personally I really like the screaming for ten minutes until he's finally carried back to the ship option, but I wouldn't necessarily say that'd hit the mark in terms of acute realism either. 

[The Ultimate Predator]

Personally I really like the screaming for ten minutes until he's finally carried back to the ship option, but I wouldn't necessarily say that'd hit the mark in terms of acute realism either

Hahaha, I agree.

I was thinking, your theory of him being an android is far more plausible IMO than him being human. The only argument that stand up in my mind is the idea that it was the acting/filming. But Lance is  a damn fine actor, I think he'd try and be obvious as to whatever he was portraying.

[maledoro]

Either way the red blood instead of white liquid is a good indication of him not being an android, but I still think the acting and directing seems intent on having him percieved as being non-human.

Well, if the effects guys say that Fincher had intended for Bishop II to be human, and Henriksen had agreed, then the acting and directing seems intent on having him perceived as being human.

As for what had actually happened, what would be a suitable alternative? Him passing out and then rolling credits immediately after? Him screaming for the next ten minutes as the recovery team cart him back to the ship?

Yeah sure if they had wanted to change the script to that instead, but assuming the script was the same, he could have at least shown a bit more pain and trauma than "*grunt* I'm not a droid". Most people tend to freak out a bit when they have an injury like that, not to mention get a bit dizzy even if it takes awhile to feel the actual pain. So, yeah, having him for example drop to his knees briefly, and actually take a few extra seconds to regain his composure and then slowly get back up (with some apparent dizziness, maybe trying to hold the side of his head together with his hands, whatever) instead of just being fine and as perky as can be a split second later would have been better I think.

He did "drop to his knees briefly, took a few seconds to regain his composure and slowly got back up" and he also held his hand to the side of his head. He also grunted for a bit after the injury and made some grimaces while pleading with Ripley. He was only "fine and perky" before the injury.

[The Ultimate Predator]

I should re-watch the scene again.

[VenomX]

He did "drop to his knees briefly, took a few seconds to regain his composure and slowly got back up" and he also held his hand to the side of his head. He also grunted for a bit after the injury and made some grimaces while pleading with Ripley. He was only "fine and perky" before the injury.

Eh?

No, assuming we're talking about the same movie here, he never dropped to his knees, he bent forward a little from his waist due to the force of the blow and spun around, leaning against the fence. The moment he was hit he made an "uhh" noise just as 85 (I think it was) hit him, but other than that there are no noises, no "grunts for a bit after the injury", and there were no "grimaces while pleading with Ripley" either, unless you call a perfectly calm face, slightly excited perhaps from the situation of trying to persuade Ripley, a grimace of severe pain. I guess his personality wasn't "perky" either before or after, but he was obviously equally "fine".

The first thing he says after his injury is he very calmly starts talking to Ripley about all we could learn from them, etc etc, and even though sure, he grabbed his head with his hands at the instant he was hit, he never touches his head again. I mean he has a big flap of the side of his head sticking straight out to the side, exposing the side of his skull and flesh (which can't be seen of course since he's filmed from the front). The flap is palmsized for xenos sake, and he makes no effort to hold it back in, nothing to stop the bleeding, just calmly keeps talking to Ripley. And speaking of that bleeding too, well, there is none! Alien3 wasn't a stranger to showing blood, but except for whatever's right around the actual tissue flap, which can barely be glimpsed unless you look at a freeze-frame image, he's not bleeding at all. He may be human, but I just don't see the obvious evidence for it as clearly as you do apparently.

Don't mean to get all fussy about this but heck, if you enjoy quoting peoples words back to them to try to prove them wrong, maybe you should make sure you're actually correct in what you're saying first. 

[maledoro]

Not to make a big deal over a little mistake; he didn't kneel down, but he did crumple into himself. He also didn't look that calm and continued to hold his ear and gasp after pleading with Ripley.

[VenomX]

Actually, you know what I was thinking - are you watching the extended SE version of Alien 3?

I haven't seen that one yet, so I'm only going by the theatrical. In that, I'm not aware of Bishop acting the way you say he is at all, but maybe he does in the longer version?

[maledoro]

I was watching the Special Edition...

[VenomX]

I was watching the Special Edition...

Well then that might actually settle the acting debate as far as I'm concerned anyway. 

I still think he looks very calm and collected in the scenes that I assume still are in the SE, and the no bleeding is still suspicious, but my impression of the situation from the theatrical version might be as simple as bad judgement on the cutting board then.

I'll have to get around to seeing the special edition sometime soon.

[Mr. Weyland]

In the longer version of ALIEN 3, he shows pain, and he shows anger by yelling at a Weyland-Yutani camera man, "No pictures!" he says, the cameraman looks a little shocked, because if he was a android he wouldnt show or be violence to a human, unless a human attacks another human, an android is aloud to take action, but not in a very violent way i guess.
He did yell stop when the alien handler/ marine shot morse in the leg

[Darkness]

Interesting debate. I think there are definitely reasons on both sides whether Bishop was human or an android.

Tell me maledoro, if you're so convinced he was human, how do you explain Weyland in AvP? Do you just consider Bishop II to be an ancestor or what?