It is interesting to think about how soon the Alien future is set in real time. My daughter will still be alive when the Prometheus is set to depart (god-willing) and my grandchildren will be about when the Nostromo sets out from Thedus. If you think about it this way the Weyland speech we have just seen suggests a pivotal moment in human history, something that propels human kind from where we are now into a science fiction type future. Any thoughts on how Peter Weyland might "change the world"? FTL? Bio-engineering?
My own hunch is that it is FTL travel, allowing Weyland Corp to either populate or at least mine distant planets for resources. You can then think of the events of the new film as a prequel to the future portrayed in the original film (and its sequels), not as a prequel to the events of the original film (if that even makes sense).
-Chris
Hmm, FTL Travel seems unlikely, I think the breakthrough that may change the world will be large scale interstellar travel itself.
Prolly them cybernetic individuals that are indistinguishable from humans,
Chris, don't forget that they could get to Zeta Reticuli system (39 light years) in 7 years ships time, assuming 1g acceleration to midpoint of voyage, and 1g deceleration the remainder, to destination. Presumedly, they could hyper-sleep through most of the voyage. Max. velocity attained based on these parameters would be 99.89% of c
Unfortunately, the total Earth-time elapsed would be 41 years.
The speed of light limit "c" is not just a good idea...it is the Law. ;D
Quote from: SM on Mar 01, 2012, 05:35:10 AMProlly them cybernetic individuals that are indistinguishable from humans,
Ah, but he says in the speech that they already exist.
Quote from: deuterium on Mar 01, 2012, 05:37:53 AMThe speed of light limit "c" is not just a good idea...it is the Law. ;D
Did you catch the mention of M Theory in the speech? Perhaps this is a hint that in the next 11 years scientists will have some major breakthrough in physics that, fictionally at least, allows for FTL?
I guess I am assuming the his closing remark is a foreshadow of him actually revealing something world changing, which may not be the case of course. It does however seem as though
Prometheus will deal with the idea of human arrogance in the face of technology and the viral seems to suggest that it is attempting to bridge the gap between 'now' and 'then'.
-Chris
QuoteAh, but he says in the speech that they already exist.
Not quite yet they don't.
QuoteI guess I am assuming the his closing remark is a foreshadow of him actually revealing something world changing, which may not be the case of course.
The way he says it, it seems like the latter. Like he's going to be doing lots of groundbreaking shit - not one specific thing.
Quote from: SM on Mar 01, 2012, 05:59:10 AMNot quite yet they don't.
You're right, I remembered it wrong. Good point.
-Chris
Robots are coming, son!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mclbVTIYG8E#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mclbVTIYG8E#ws)
I think they must have travel much much faster then 7 years... cause i can't imagine that Ripley, promised her daughter to be back for her 11th birthday at the age of 4...
i like this thread.
Quote from: atlantis on Mar 01, 2012, 06:26:09 AM
I think they must have travel much much faster then 7 years... cause i can't imagine that Ripley, promised her daughter to be back for her 11th birthday at the age of 4...
it seems to me like just take a year for that nostromo travel to go and get back.
i love the concept of the movie, more "ideas" throw it to guess whats going on in this near future. something very Space Odissey. u know Ridley loves this when u see this approach in Prophets of Science Fiction documentary.
Quote from: SM on Mar 01, 2012, 05:35:10 AM
Prolly them cybernetic individuals that are indistinguishable from humans,
Two words: Justin Bieber
Quote from: atlantis on Mar 01, 2012, 06:26:09 AM
I think they must have travel much much faster then 7 years... cause i can't imagine that Ripley, promised her daughter to be back for her 11th birthday at the age of 4...
Time dilation?
Time dilation is a non-issue in the Alien films. It may however be at this earlier time period.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67fPHOYqD3w# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67fPHOYqD3w#)
I wonder if we'll make it...
As far as Weyland's speech, a new energy source would be required. I found it odd how he places fusion and fission along with M-theory when both of those are mid 20th century discoveries. Of course in the aliens universe the atmospheric processor and Nostromo are powered by fusion reactors. So that's either a gross mistake or referencing a new method of nuclear energy in a contradictory way.
The step towards non-time-dilating spacecraft capable of dragging city sized ore refineries across 50+ light years in a handful of months lies somewhere between 2023 (only 11 years away) and 2122. Prometheus lands pretty much right in the middle.
-Chris
Quote from: whiterabbit on Mar 01, 2012, 10:33:59 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67fPHOYqD3w# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67fPHOYqD3w#)
I wonder if we'll make it...
As far as Weyland's speech, a new energy source would be required. I found it odd how he places fusion and fission along with M-theory when both of those are mid 20th century discoveries. Of course in the aliens universe the atmospheric processor and Nostromo are powered by fusion reactors. So that's either a gross mistake or referencing a new method of nuclear energy in a contradictory way.
That was amazing.
So this year we might evolve to the next type?
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 01, 2012, 05:16:49 AM
It is interesting to think about how soon the Alien future is set in real time. My daughter will still be alive when the Prometheus is set to depart (god-willing) and my grandchildren will be about when the Nostromo sets out from Thedus. If you think about it this way the Weyland speech we have just seen suggests a pivotal moment in human history, something that propels human kind from where we are now into a science fiction type future. Any thoughts on how Peter Weyland might "change the world"? FTL? Bio-engineering?
My own hunch is that it is FTL travel, allowing Weyland Corp to either populate or at least mine distant planets for resources. You can then think of the events of the new film as a prequel to the future portrayed in the original film (and its sequels), not as a prequel to the events of the original film (if that even makes sense).
-Chris
She might be Ellen Pachi
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 01, 2012, 11:10:39 AM
The step towards non-time-dilating spacecraft capable of dragging city sized ore refineries across 50+ light years in a handful of months lies somewhere between 2023 (only 11 years away) and 2122. Prometheus lands pretty much right in the middle.
-Chris
Got to love Sci-Fi. At least it let's us still dream big. To think it has been 40+ years since we humans have been to the surface of the moon. To make matters worse, it appears that even the most optimistic estimates won't have us back to the Moon by the time the fictional Peter Weyland gives his TED speech in 2023. Forget about Mars. We will be incredibly lucky if that happens by 2050...and the way things are going now, it does not look likely.
NASA is a mess. While they still have incredible talent (especially JPL and unmanned programs), the human spaceflight program is being flushed down the toilet.
Don't dwell deuterium. We had the vision to get to the moon in a matter of years from serious conception to "one small step" ... besides, I think in all honesty the cheapest and best way to get manned space flight up and running is very ironically going to be something like what is depicted within Prometheus/Alien. Corporate/private expeditions that push the entire industry forward and create a new economy.
The first step is simply to get a much larger foothold in space. (I say simply not too lightly. I merely mean we have already undertaken the two primary parts of such an endeavor. A standing human population in space (ISS) and landing on the moon repeatedly (Apollo Program). So, what we need is a colony on the moon, numbering in the hundreds. Something that actually generates some serious construction and design in space. Mining, tourism, etc... Coming up with the faster engines, stronger and more efficient engines, and pushing farther out into the solar system would come quite naturally asa side effect. (Mining in the asteroid field, green house and terraforming operations on Mars)
Once humans have something game-changingly amazing, just barely grazing their finger tips, they can't help but try to reach even further to grab it.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Mar 01, 2012, 02:09:14 PM
Don't dwell deuterium. We had the vision to get to the moon in a matter of years from serious conception to "one small step" ...
The Cold War and an unlimited budget for NASA did help a little. Nowadays there's no such stress on beating anyone. Hopefully in 40 years I'll be able to retire to my ranch on Mars or something :D
Other stresses are coming. Strained resources, the threats of planetary cataclysm from one of those cosmic pond-rocks crashing into our humble abode and swiftly ending the species. We'll get up there again.
But we are up there. Landing on the moon was mind-f**k amazing, but peanuts to what we have learned about the cosmos in the last 40 years. The moon is a just bug on the lens - we are now able to detect alien solar systems and in the next few years (if the science pans out) we will be able to detect biological life on planets tens of light years away.
Sure our spaceships are crap, but our reach is ever expanding.
-Chris
Kaku's estimations are a bit off, there... Most technological breakthroughs, energy-wise, get more out of less. When we get into creating things like fusion reactors, the energy supply will be vast.
And it doesn't even seem to give a category for a civilisation which might have devised a method of vacuuming energy out of the 'ether' or some alternative dimension.
Look at the physical amount of material needed for the first atomic bomb, versus how much TNT an explosion of that size would have required!
If we restrict our understanding of extraterrestrial civilisations by how much resources they exhaust, we could easily be going about it in the wrong way... Doc Brown's time machine ran on household garbage, for crying out loud, whereas the former version required plutonium! A fictional example, sure, but in layman's terms, the principle's a feasible one. By the 'type 1/2/3' theory, the more efficient time machine would be regarded as less advanced.
For all we know, someone could be zipping around the galaxy on something powered by cotton wool...
Hey, its been a while ;D
Really, there isnt anything new revealed in the TED speech by Weyland that we dont have already at varying levels of progression. Biotechnology can include current-day insulin injections for diabetics, nanotech is pretty all-encompassing these days and M-theory, well... its a theory we have now (though what it could give to us, is pretty... well, god-like)
We also have fission as thats what fuels our current day nuclear power.
Fusion is the interesting one. Thats the one real discovery that if it goes past current experiments, changes the energy game. I wonder what happened in 11 years to lead to that all of a sudden working out. Perhaps advances in the eponimous M-theory led to a big discovery?
Japan currently -today- has humanoid robots that while not indistinguishable from us, are looking more human-like.
Its not too unbelievable right now. FTL will be the big one in the future, with Alien set 110 years from now.
Quote from: harlock on Mar 01, 2012, 06:36:55 PM
Hey, its been a while ;D
Really, there isnt anything new revealed in the TED speech by Weyland that we dont have already at varying levels of progression. Biotechnology can include current-day insulin injections for diabetics, nanotech is pretty all-encompassing these days and M-theory, well... its a theory we have now (though what it could give to us, is pretty... well, god-like)
We also have fission as thats what fuels our current day nuclear power.
Fusion is the interesting one. Thats the one real discovery that if it goes past current experiments, changes the energy game. I wonder what happened in 11 years to lead to that all of a sudden working out. Perhaps advances in the eponimous M-theory led to a big discovery?
Japan currently -today- has humanoid robots that while not indistinguishable from us, are looking more human-like.
Its not too unbelievable right now. FTL will be the big one in the future, with Alien set 110 years from now.
It is hard to imagine ANY possible practical applications of the still incomplete M-Theory (and other String Theories) in the near or foreseeable future. We do not have the energy levels available to directly explore predictions of these theories. The most powerful accelerator (LHC) is orders of magnitude too low. The best hope is making indirect observations that might help to determine if M-Theory is on the right track.
I mean, look at it this way...we have had Special Relativity for over 100 years now. General Relativity is coming up on 100 years. Relativistic Quantum Field Theory is approx. 70-80 years old. But we still don't have flying cars. ;D
It is true that quantum physics have been directly responsible for incredible technological advances in the past 50-60 years. Our entire solid-state technological base would not have occured without understanding of quantum physics...right down to the discovery of the transistor. Matter of fact, pretty much our entire technological society rests upon our understanding and exploitation of Quantum physics.
It is harder to come up with "practical" examples of how General Relativity has advanced our technology. Of course, it is absolutely fundamental to Cosmology, and our understanding of the evolution of our Universe. It is a bit harder to pinpoint specific advances in terms of "practical" technologies, directly related to GR. The best I can think of is our GPS system, which would not work if corrections due to GR were not involved. Nevertheless, GPS is an absolutely critical component of our modern society.
I think the next space propulsion breakthroughs will be based upon already well understood theoretical physics (nuclear and quantum physics). Nuclear fusion processes are pretty well-understood...the problem is putting them into practice. We have the capability right now to design and build a nuclear pulse rocket (see Project Orion). Direct propulsion utilizing fusion is still in the distant future.
Oh sure, I'm just speaking subjectively.
In this video, we're looking at a world from ours in 11 years. Not that hugely different, but obviously some advances have been made and Weyland does mention M-theory, just how far along we are with that in 2023 we dont know. We may have a more advanced accelerator a decade from now.
I dont want to get hung-up on that, but apart from super-speedy fusion engines that a ship 62 years later (see below) may have (also bear in mind that the 2073 comments state Weyland has done an interplanetary mining operation -lets say that was a mining operation set up somewhere in-system) and apparently has also come up with artificial atmosphere processing by this point), whats to say that M-theory could be advanced enough to allow what could be seen as a type of FTL travel that apparently we will be seeing in Prometheus (that the film would show in realistic terms what humans would go through if it was possible).
Now lets talk a little about the time in Prometheus. We have on the 50th anniversary of that vid (2073) Weyland Corp looking for funding for a project (quite probably the Prometheus journey, the year the film is set is supposedly 2085 which gives a nice 12 year gap from project birth and collecting funding to fruition). I wonder if it is possible that the Prometheus is the prototype ship using FTL technology.
For example, if Zeta 2 Reticuli is 39 light years away, some time under 12 years of travel is pretty FTL.
Also - is Weyland tempting fate? He knows what Prometheus was, yet he names his ship that same name? Seeing mankind as "gods" over the robot "men" of the future, just what is he doing calling a ship by that name?
Quote from: harlock on Mar 01, 2012, 08:03:53 PM
Also - is Weyland tempting fate? He knows what Prometheus was, yet he names his ship that same name? Seeing mankind as "gods" over the robot "men" of the future, just what is he doing calling a ship by that name?
I would say the answer to that is a resounding yes...he most certainly is tempting fate.
In all of our cultural history/literature, has ANYTHING good ever came by someone declaring that they have become like a "god"? No, typically they are smote down in their hubris...and there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth. ;D
Should've called the ship the "Hubris".
QuoteKaku's estimations are a bit off, there...
I often find his estimations off on that Sci Fi Science show he does...
Quote from: harlock on Mar 01, 2012, 08:03:53 PM
Oh sure, I'm just speaking subjectively.
I wonder if it is possible that the Prometheus is the prototype ship using FTL technology.
don´t know coz Alien is 30 years later. So Nostromo ship has to have this FTL tech. And Nostromo looks old even before Prometheus movie exist. and its crew looks accostumed to this kind of tech. and it seems Nostromo not the only ship. so to have a Nostromo class fleet, and send one or maybe some of this to ANOTHER solar system to MINING???.. it has to pass lot more time. i mean why dont mining Saturn first? has to be for some unknow material not found in this system.
Nostromo is FTL if it takes 10 months to travel 39 light years.
The writing along with the video states that by 2073 (hinted thats when Weyland was looking for funding for the Prometheus)Weyland has already been responsible for the first interplanetary mining and hints at atmosphere processing too. It doesnt say what the first planet was though.
I would think Mars would have been the first and most likely place for that. Followed slowly by the others of our system.
Now looking 49 years past that intial date when ALIEN is set, if Prometheus was the first FTL capable space-craft, it at least gives a couple of decades past its completion to be implemented in other craft and spacers to get used to it. Also means the Nostromo could be decades old or even a retro-fitted ship in ALIEN.
Be interesting to see if and how this might tie into the Blade Runner universe where FTL travel is mundane by 2019.
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 01, 2012, 05:08:46 PM
Kaku's estimations are a bit off, there... Most technological breakthroughs, energy-wise, get more out of less. When we get into creating things like fusion reactors, the energy supply will be vast.
And it doesn't even seem to give a category for a civilisation which might have devised a method of vacuuming energy out of the 'ether' or some alternative dimension.
Look at the physical amount of material needed for the first atomic bomb, versus how much TNT an explosion of that size would have required!
If we restrict our understanding of extraterrestrial civilisations by how much resources they exhaust, we could easily be going about it in the wrong way... Doc Brown's time machine ran on household garbage, for crying out loud, whereas the former version required plutonium! A fictional example, sure, but in layman's terms, the principle's a feasible one. By the 'type 1/2/3' theory, the more efficient time machine would be regarded as less advanced.
For all we know, someone could be zipping around the galaxy on something powered by cotton wool...
Your estimation is a bit off as well.
TNT and Nuclear Weapons are two different types of reactions and one did not replace the other.
There are still HUGE conventional bombs being used for combat.
And Nuclear energy requires as much work if not more that other types.
The energy output of nukes is still described as a TNT equivalent however.
Quote from: SM on Mar 02, 2012, 12:45:32 AM
Be interesting to see if and how this might tie into the Blade Runner universe where FTL travel is mundane by 2019.
SM...believe me, I am not trying to be a contrarian...but what exactly in the Blade Runner film (exclusively), provides unambiguous confirmation that FTL travel has been achieved, much less "mundane"?
One can easily explain the terms "off-world colonies" as being settlements within our solar system (e.g. Moon, Mars, Europa, Enceladus, Ganymede, Titan, etc.).
Rutger Hauer's wonderful line about watching "attack ships burning off the shoulder Orion", actually only makes sense if he is speaking of observing spaceships within our solar system, that happen to align with our perspective of the Constellation of Orion. When viewed from another stellar system, constellations that we identify, as viewed from our system (Sol), are completely distorted and lose all associations we associate with them. In other words, the name and shape of what we call "Constellations", is specific, and exclusive to our particular perspective, within our Solar system. As you move light-years away, to even the nearest stars, our familiar stellar alignments (which we call "constellations) warp and distort. The further from Sol, the greater the divergence. Yeah, I know I am sounding like a wet blanket...but I am just doing my part to keep any pretense of Science...honest.
Does that mean that Rutger Hauer realized this when he purportedly ad-libbed this line...of course not.
I am just saying, that his comment could still be explained without assuming FTL travel, or assuming we achieved interstellar travel.
Of course, there may be something else stated within the film that I have forgotten...
^ Agreed.
Did Blade Runner actually have FTL ships as canon?
I know there were off-world colonies, but all of those could have been in-system and we could reach them with STL ships, we reach other planets in-system in measurements of AU (1 AU = 8.3 light minutes), not light years.
For example, Mars can be either 0.5 AU or 1.5 AU away from Earth depending on its orbital path. Thats a maximum of nearly 13 minutes if going at the speed of light at its furthest point from us.
Of course, I could stand to be corrected, but a fast ship in Blade Runner is different to a FTL ship (unless there really is travel to other star systems than our just own planets).
As far as I'm concerned, "Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion" means Roy has been to the vicinity of Betelguese or Bellatrix and back. Just because the constellations don't work when you're not on Earth, doesn't stop those stars being considered Orion's shoulders.
And viewing an attack ship on fire off the shoulder of Orion from Earth isn't really something "you people wouldn't believe", if anyone could just watch it.
A fair point, actually.
Also theres the replicant/android thing.
I have to agree with SM here. Yes, it was naive, but Blade Runner suggests interstellar travel, in the same 'common or garden' way that ALIEN did.
Remember that these movies were made at a time when there was no readily available wikipedia 'relativity-for-dummies' reference media at you fingertips like there is today. Pretty much every science fiction movie or novel since the year dot would be destroyed if you had to justify it with mathematical precision or physics. All that is important are the simple human concepts: far away, long time to get there, difficult to get there, isolation whilst there, etc.
Quote from: SM on Mar 02, 2012, 01:34:10 AM
As far as I'm concerned, "Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion" means Roy has been to the vicinity of Betelguese or Bellatrix and back. Just because the constellations don't work when you're not on Earth, doesn't stop those stars being considered Orion's shoulders.
And viewing an attack ship on fire off the shoulder of Orion from Earth isn't really something "you people wouldn't believe", if anyone could just watch it.
SM, I am not sure if you realize this, but stars within a Constellation are not connected or bound with each other, and are completely RANDOM groupings of stars that just happen to lie in the same direction in the night sky, from our perspective. It is our own human brains that strive for patterns. Bellatrix (250 light years from Sol) and Betelguese (640 Light years from Sol)
are no where near each other. And even if you were orbiting one or the other, you certainly wouldn't see the constellation we know as Orion.
And my only point, is that it is an open for subjective interpretation, wether the Blade Runner universe featured FTL travel. I am just trying to point out one possibility/interpretation.
And unless there were incredible energies involved (hundreds to thosands of megatons), one wouldn't expect to be able to see a spaceship "on fire" within our solar system. One of the brightest recorded events (not including solar related phenomena) that occured WITHIN our solar system, was the impact of Shoemaker-Levy comet into Jupiter. And that could ONLY be seen through high powered telescopes...not the naked eye.
Where did I suggest any such thing?
Betelguese can be referred to the right shoulder of Orion and Bellatrix the left no matter if you view it from Earth or are orbiting it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(constellation)#Stars).
Them being near each other or not isn't relevant to anything.
Quote from: SM on Mar 02, 2012, 02:11:54 AM
Where did I suggest any such thing?
Betelguese can be referred to the right shoulder of Orion and Bellatrix the left no matter if you view it from Earth or are orbiting it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(constellation)#Stars).
Them being near each other or not isn't relevant to anything.
No it can't. There is no "shoulder of Orion"...there is no "Constellation of Orion", when viewed from either Bellatrix or Betelguese. What we see as the "hunter", and the shape of the ORION constellation is completely unique to our perspective within our solar system.
It doesn't matter. The stars are still the shoulders.
If you're in an area of space near either you could be said to be "off the shoulder of Orion".
Quote from: SM on Mar 02, 2012, 02:19:59 AM
It doesn't matter. The stars are still the shoulders.
If you're in an area of space near either you could be said to be "off the shoulder of Orion".
I can't seem to convince you otherwise...so fair enough. I will leave it at this...only someone looking from within Earth's system would say something is "off the shoulder of Orion".
If you want to maintain that narrow view - go ahead. The area was named from Earth. Don't see how why that would change if someone actually travelled there.
We're not talking about the entire constellation. We're talking about two stars that make up the constellation. If Roy had said "Attack ships on fire in Orion" you'd have a point. But that's not what he said.
Quote from: SM on Mar 02, 2012, 01:12:36 AM
The energy output of nukes is still described as a TNT equivalent however.
Cause that was the method used when they started messing around with nukes.
Joules are also used.
Quote from: SM on Mar 02, 2012, 02:33:40 AM
If you want to maintain that narrow view - go ahead. The area was named from Earth. Don't see how why that would change if someone actually travelled there.
We're not talking about the entire constellation. We're talking about two stars that make up the constellation. If Roy had said "Attack ships on fire in Orion" you'd have a point. But that's not what he said.
I willl try one more time...
SM, the first image below shows the "constellation" of Orion, as viewed from Earth (Northern Hemisphere). Note the positions in the sky of Betelgeuse and Bellatrix, as well as Rigel, and the three stars making Orion's belt:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi763.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx274%2FDeuterium2h%2FConstellationofOrionasviewedfromEarthNorthernHemisphere.png&hash=bfb8f1149f628c93b3c6fcff6d03318723fd8cb4)
Below is a view from Betelgeuse, as looking back towards our Sun. The Sun is roughly in the same position in sky as Betelgeuse is in the first image (above and slightly to the left). Please note where Bellatrix is. It is to the far left. So, you are Roy Batty, orbiting Betelgeuse, looking back towards our Sun...and it just so happens that Bellatrix is in the field of view. But where are all the other stars that make up the constellation of Orion. Where is Rigel? Where is Mintaka, Alnilam and Alnitak (which make up Orion's "belt")?? They are no where to be seen. The reason is because they are in a completely different part of the sky, and not anywhere near the section of the sky we can see.
So where exactly would Roy Batty point to, when he is seeing something "off the shoulder of Orion"?
The same issue happens if he was orbiting Bellatrix.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi763.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx274%2FDeuterium2h%2FSunandBellatrixasviewedfromBetelgeuse.png&hash=4a67b456131d0cd8b5269d7deb1ebaa0eff5c092)
Bellatrix and Betelguese are the "shoulders" of Orion.
So he and the "attack ships" were in a region of space near either of those stars (which star isn't specified).
I'm really not sure why this is so difficult for you to grasp. I simply see the "shoulder of Orion" as either the region of space near Bellatrix or the region of space near Betelguese. He could've said "Attack ships on fire near the Betelguese system", but it's not nearly as romantic.
If he'd said the "belt of Orion" which comprises three stars - again you'd have a point. But again - he doesn't say that. He's talking about one of two specific regions of space. Near either Bellatrix or Betelguese.
The view (or lack thereof) of the constellation from another point in space is completely irrelevant.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 01, 2012, 05:16:49 AM
It is interesting to think about how soon the Alien future is set in real time. My daughter will still be alive when the Prometheus is set to depart (god-willing) and my grandchildren will be about when the Nostromo sets out from Thedus. If you think about it this way the Weyland speech we have just seen suggests a pivotal moment in human history, something that propels human kind from where we are now into a science fiction type future. Any thoughts on how Peter Weyland might "change the world"? FTL? Bio-engineering?
My own hunch is that it is FTL travel, allowing Weyland Corp to either populate or at least mine distant planets for resources. You can then think of the events of the new film as a prequel to the future portrayed in the original film (and its sequels), not as a prequel to the events of the original film (if that even makes sense).
-Chris
Hi Chris, I can't believe I hadn't commented directly to your original (and thoughtful) post. Looking back through the thread, I just realized how far afield these discussions sometimes get...but sometimes that is what makes this forum so interesting.
Anyways, it is cool how you are thinking about your own descendents, and what their life might be like in our near future. While I am glad to live in these times, and to see all I have seen (and hopefully much more to come)...I can't help but wonder what it would be like to have instead been born 150 years from now. What will our normal human life-span be, 150 years in the future? Will we have conquered cancer, in all its insidious forms? Alzheimer's? Will we be able to use bio and nano-tech to slow down the aging process? What would it be like to live a full, healthy and productive lifespan of 200 years, or even longer?
Will it be common for replacement body parts/organs to be grown organically from stem cells, or some synthesis of mechanical / cybernetic devices...perhaps even blurring the line between biological and mechanical?
Will we have created true Artificial Intelligence...and perhaps the first proto-androids? If we design androids which are intelligent, concious, fully self-aware beings, would they become trans-human (or post-human)? At such a point in our technoligical evolution...will the term "human" no longer be clearly defined? Will we, ourselves, be on the verge of becoming post-human...with our body and perhaps our very minds being augmented by bio and nanotechnologies that we cannot even conceive of at this moment?
Getting back to the end of your question...I think the ultimate revolution will be Artificial Intelligence...and the creation of minds that far exceed our comprehension. Once you create the first, well, it can conceivably boot-strap itself to exponentially higher levels of intelligence. How do we compete against an artificial mind that can think the equivalent thoughts of a million humans, all thinking for a million years...yet all within microseconds of real-time?
In fact, I think most science-fiction writers are way too conservative when it comes to artificial intelligence. Typically, they are depicted as being only different in degree, rather then of kind. They are just amped up human minds, or amped up super-computers. IMHO, the one science fiction author who is really seen a possible future, is Ian M. Banks. If you have read any of his Culture novels, then think of the ships Minds. That is what might happen when the damn bursts, and A.I begins uplifting and improving itself, perhaps at an exponential rate. Fortunately, in Bank's universe, humanity and the Minds co-exist harmoniously.
And while I don't think we will see FTL travel even in the remote future (if at all), I certainly can see us leaving Mother Earth and colonizing the local neighborhood of stellar systems, perhaps with the first true manned interstellar mission happenning within the next 200-300 years.
We still don't know the process by which ships like the Nostromo and Sulaco are meant to have journeyed between Earth and places like Thedus. I've speculated before that it might be something along the lines of humanity having found or built some sort of wormholes or '
Babylon 5'-style jump gates: They'd travel to these pre-destined locations at sub-light or trans-light speeds, then make the leap to wherever the exit would be and cruise the rest of the way.
This has the bonus of potentially explaining how communications are meant to be FTL, too, if it's by way of communication buoys relaying data to one another between such things.
I'm presuming Cameron intended to portray something termed 'hyperspace' for the Sulaco, going by the listing of the unused piece on the soundtrack (later included in '
Die Hard'), but since it was never shown on screen...
Quote from: DaddyYautja on Mar 02, 2012, 01:02:49 AM
Your estimation is a bit off as well.
TNT and Nuclear Weapons are two different types of reactions and one did not replace the other.
There are still HUGE conventional bombs being used for combat.
And Nuclear energy requires as much work if not more that other types.
As SM pointed out, destructive yield was often used as a conventional equivalent. :)
I was trying to explain that the amount of physical material you'd need to unleash similar destructive power, with something like dynamite, would be massive, compared to the relatively small amount of uranium, etcetera, for just one nuclear warhead. Especially these days, when you can literally design one to fit inside a briefcase.
In my view, this is the more likely progression curve of technological development. We don't stagnate at the same levels of efficiency. We get
more efficient, allowing us to exploit more energy from less resources.
QuoteWe still don't know the process by which ships like the Nostromo and Sulaco are meant to have journeyed between Earth and places like Thedus. I've speculated before that it might be something along the lines of humanity having found or built some sort of wormholes or 'Babylon 5'-style jump gates: They'd travel to these pre-destined locations at sub-light or trans-light speeds, then make the leap to wherever the exit would be and cruise the rest of the way.
There wasn't any gate near Z2R when the Nostromo was around. Hyperspace was the preferred method going by the script and comic.
But Weylands mention of M Theory lead me to actually look up what M Theory was. Since it's all about dimensions and string (and stuff that frankly does my head in) maybe THAT might lead to FTL technology.
I had my shot at perusing (damn, that sounds loud!) M-Theory as well, unfortunately that didn't last very long. All I have drawn from there, is it somehow relates to temporal and spatial references, so perhaps, has something to do with manipulating of time-space continuum. Can anybody, who comprehends what this all theory is about, put it in simple words (if it's possible at all)? Unquestionably compelling stuff, though enigmatic ;D
Getting back to the topic, as many have already expressed idea we're going to become more technologically advanced in the broad spectre of realms (I reckon, Deuterium, has nicely enumerated the mass of them), I totally agree upon this assumption. However, honestly, it makes me sad to a certain extent, if to recall Eainstein's citation about humanitarian evolution in opposition (or at expence) of technological. Come what may, I'd like to see human beings using more percentage of their brains (in both senses), than we do today.
Quote from: aliennaire on Mar 02, 2012, 12:33:39 PM
I had my shot at perusing (damn, that sounds loud!) M-Theory as well, unfortunately that didn't last very long. All I have drawn from there, is it somehow relates to temporal and spatial references, so perhaps, has something to do with manipulating of time-space continuum. Can anybody, who comprehends what this all theory is about, put it in simple words (if it's possible at all)? Unquestionably compelling stuff, though enigmatic ;D
By no means am I any expert in String theory...but I will hazard your challenge of distilling M-Theory into simple terms. Basically, it is a synthesis of various different String theories (of which there were 5 competing models), that had been developed through the 70s and 80s. The five different String theory models, did not initially seem related...and in some respects, mutually exclusive.
String theory, at is most basic level, is an attempt to unify
Gravity with the other three fundamental forces in Nature, which are all exquisitely explained with Quantum Field Theory (
Electro-Magnetic, Strong and Weak Forces). E-M was unified with the Weak force via Quantum Electrodynamics (QED), and the Strong interaction/force is described by Quantum Chromodynamics (QCD). The Standard Model unified QED and QCD...thus bringing E-M, Weak and Strong forces under one physical theory/model.
However, Gravity has remained stubbornly incompatible with Quantum theory in certain fundamental ways. Mathematically, the problem is that General Relativity (which describes Gravity) is a classical field theory that is Nonrenormalizable. Renormalization is a key mathematical tool for treating infinite integrals, which occur in Quantum Field Theory. String Theory essentially gets around this roadblock, by introducing extra dimensions and exploiting mathematical symmetries which result. String theory (as a generic term) is a theory of Quantum Gravity, and attempts to unify Gravity with Quantum Field Theory/Standard Model.
As I mentioned previously, there were five seperate String Theories. In 1995, Dr. Edward Witten introduced a way to reconcile all these five theories into a single, unified "String Theory", which is called
M-Theory.
It is a potential candidate for the so-called "Theory of Everything" (TOE). However, there are still major issues with the Theory, which is by no means complete and consistent.
SM-Theory = daFuq?
I don't know why everyone is discussing what 'we' can and can not do given the knowledge we have because in Prometheus one man is responsible for 'several patents in Biotech and Nanotech (before he was 14)', a synthetic atmosphere above the Polar cap, androids indistinguishable from humans, interstellar space drives and advanced cryogenics (or similar). These are all beyond the capabilities of any of us today or in the foreseeable future, and in some cases deemed actually impossible. Peter Weyland is not normal, no one can be that clever, and I believe there are clues in his speech (cleared by the writers of Prometheus) - the match comment, the trick is showing that it does not hurt could mean that he is hiding something and then look at his expression when describing the over-reaction of the Gods when they punished Prometheus. This leads me to think of only two possible scenarios;
1, Peter Weyland was given (or stole) the God's 'fire' when he was a child, maybe an alien data bank with a telepathic link. Perhaps he found it on one of his mother's field trips?
2, Peter Weyland is not human, possibly an android, exiled here thousands of years ago and his punishment was waiting for the humans to reach a level of technology that he could exploit.
If either is true then there is no fore-shadowing when it comes to the naming of the ship, it's named after it's creator - Prometheus aka Peter Weyland.
Quick! Check his liver!!
Quote from: bunnyavpg on Mar 03, 2012, 12:19:20 AM
Peter Weyland is not normal, no one can be that clever, and I believe there are clues in his speech (cleared by the writers of Prometheus) - the match comment, the trick is showing that it does not hurt could mean that he is hiding something and then look at his expression when describing the over-reaction of the Gods when they punished Prometheus. This leads me to think of only two possible scenarios;
1, Peter Weyland was given (or stole) the God's 'fire' when he was a child, maybe an alien data bank with a telepathic link. Perhaps he found it on one of his mother's field trips?
2, Peter Weyland is not human, possibly an android, exiled here thousands of years ago and his punishment was waiting for the humans to reach a level of technology that he could exploit.
If either is true then there is no fore-shadowing when it comes to the naming of the ship, it's named after it's creator - Prometheus aka Peter Weyland.
I am not saying you are wrong...but I hope this does NOT turn out to be the case (either scenario 1 or 2).
It is just another example of what I like to call the "Von Daniken Human Inferiority" Principle. In a nutshell, the VDHI Principle states that any of the great achievements of our distant ancestors, could not possibly have been accomplished without the help of advanced alien presence / influence /technology.
Basically, the VDHI Principle states that we (or at least our ancestors) are/were fundamentally stupid, and uncreative, and could not possibly possess the required intellectual capacity and ingenuity to build such structures as the Pryamids, Stonehenge, the Easter Island monoliths, Nazca lines, etc, etc.
Quote from: SM on Mar 02, 2012, 07:57:48 AMThere wasn't any gate near Z2R when the Nostromo was around. Hyperspace was the preferred method going by the script and comic.
But Weylands mention of M Theory lead me to actually look up what M Theory was. Since it's all about dimensions and string (and stuff that frankly does my head in) maybe THAT might lead to FTL technology.
That was my own thought too as he mentions it as though it has been licked in the next 11 years, and Scott has talked about the film exploring the 'realities' of FTL travel. Of course the M-Theory mention could of just been filler to make the future sound more cool. Nerd writers just love to throw in physics references as though they know something about them.
Quote from: Deuterium on Mar 02, 2012, 05:44:46 AMGetting back to the end of your question...I think the ultimate revolution will be Artificial Intelligence...and the creation of minds that far exceed our comprehension.
Tying together the creation aspects of the story ("we are the gods now") and the mythology of Prometheus. I think you may right with that.
-Chris
Quote from: Deuterium on Mar 03, 2012, 12:33:48 AM
Quote from: bunnyavpg on Mar 03, 2012, 12:19:20 AM
Peter Weyland is not normal, no one can be that clever, and I believe there are clues in his speech (cleared by the writers of Prometheus) - the match comment, the trick is showing that it does not hurt could mean that he is hiding something and then look at his expression when describing the over-reaction of the Gods when they punished Prometheus. This leads me to think of only two possible scenarios;
1, Peter Weyland was given (or stole) the God's 'fire' when he was a child, maybe an alien data bank with a telepathic link. Perhaps he found it on one of his mother's field trips?
2, Peter Weyland is not human, possibly an android, exiled here thousands of years ago and his punishment was waiting for the humans to reach a level of technology that he could exploit.
If either is true then there is no fore-shadowing when it comes to the naming of the ship, it's named after it's creator - Prometheus aka Peter Weyland.
I am not saying you are wrong...but I hope this does NOT turn out to be the case (either scenario 1 or 2).
It is just another example of what I like to call the "Von Daniken Human Inferiority" Principle. In a nutshell, the VDHI Principle states that any of the great achievements of our distant ancestors, could not possibly have been accomplished without the help of advanced alien presence / influence /technology.
Basically, the VDHI Principle states that we (or at least our ancestors) are/were fundamentally stupid, and uncreative, and could not possibly possess the required intellectual capacity and ingenuity to build such structures as the Pryamids, Stonehenge, the Easter Island monoliths, Nazca lines, etc, etc.
We don't know whether a super-intelligent android from another planet would help us along but if revenge is on Weyland's mind then perhaps he would step in to speed things up. Then again maybe he would not like to bring too much attention to himself.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Terraforming a relatively recent innovation in the ALIEN universe? After the board of enquiry, it seems Van Leuwen has to explain the concept of a "Shake and Bake" Colony to Ripley, as she was presumably unaware of the concept prior to her 57 year hypersleep.
Perhaps only Ripley herself is unaware of the concept or at least the technology only became commercialy viable during the interim between ALIEN-ALIENS. Making it feasible, I suppose that the tech could have existed, in primitive form at least, in 2023 but the resources to execute it were not possible for the time.
we know what terraforming is now and it's being planned to do it in mars. maybe she just couldn't conceive people had settled in a place like that, or that mankind had expanded so much. Van Leuwen always seemed to be bluffing to me.
Quote from: chupacabras acheronsis on Mar 03, 2012, 09:22:38 PM
maybe she just couldn't conceive people had settled in a place like that,
Yeah, I think she probably just has a shock reaction to hearing that this has occured on THAT planet, and Van Leuwen reads her expression as ignorance. "This chick's been asleep for 60 years. What does she know?"
More of an exposition dump I think. Someone has to explain it to the audience and it's done fairly well in that scene.
From the TED profile of Mr. Weyland: "...it would be his dynamic break-throughs in generating synthetic atmosphere above the polar ice cap that gained him worldwide recognition and spawned an empire". My guess is that Weyland Corp had been at it for a while even before the time of the viral 2073.
The mention of the proverbial fire in his speech also suggests that maybe he has already acquired some kind of alien technology, or already has the mysterious 'clue' that leads them off-world?
-Chris
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 03, 2012, 10:22:03 PM
More of an exposition dump I think. Someone has to explain it to the audience and it's done fairly well in that scene.
Yeah, it was always clearly intended to be exposition and handled about as efficiently as it could be. Else, we would have had the "Pointer" scene. "Now this is how an Atmosphere Processor works..." ::)
Quote from: Deuterium on Mar 02, 2012, 08:49:47 PMBy no means am I any expert in String theory...but I will hazard your challenge of distilling M-Theory into simple terms... Mathematically, the problem is that General Relativity (which describes Gravity) is a classical field theory that is. Nonrenormalizable. Renormalization is a key mathematical tool for treating infinite integrals, which occur in Quantum Field Theory. String Theory essentially gets around this roadblock, by introducing extra dimensions and exploiting mathematical symmetries which result. String theory (as a generic term) is a theory of Quantum Gravity, and attempts to unify Gravity with Quantum Field Theory/Standard Model.
Thanks for explanation! While I'm able to imagine interaction of fundamental particles, the mathematical stipulation for this is plain impassable for me. :-\
So what principally this M Theory srtives to achieve is to marry two other theories: 1) the one, which deals with
time and space (General relativity) to 2) the theory, describing
energy and matter (Quantum Mechanics), in mathematical terms. I guess, if the success would ever be met, the opportunity to curb timespace uncertainity will arise immensely.
Quote from: Promethean Fire on Mar 03, 2012, 09:10:25 PMCorrect me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Terraforming a relatively recent innovation in the ALIEN universe?
Probably, by 2023, Weyland's research team has just discovered and substantiated the terraforming process or schematically designed AP, but didn't yet build any.
Here's my best explanation - counting on Deuterium to come in and set me straight. ;D
String theories attempt to reconcile Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity/gravity because at QM scales the strength of gravity is so small as to be non-existent and that buggers up the maths. This is why string theories require extra-dimensional 'strings' to provide for extra degrees of freedom that are outside of our normal 3 dimensional space.
M-Theory tries to reconcile all of the different string theories by treating them as different ways of looking at the same thing. In other words, M-Theory is the main game and the different string theories are just alternate representations of it.
-Chris
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 04, 2012, 03:20:47 AM
Here's my best explanation - counting on Deuterium to come in and set me straight. ;D
String theories attempt to reconcile Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity/gravity because at QM scales the strength of gravity is so small as to be non-existent and that buggers up the maths. This is why string theories require extra-dimensional 'strings' to provide for extra degrees of freedom that are outside of our normal 3 dimensional space.
M-Theory tries to reconcile all of the different string theories by treating them as different ways of looking at the same thing. In other words, M-Theory is the main game and the different string theories are just alternate representations of it.
-Chris
Chris, I think your summary was spot on. My previous explanation was most likely too long. I might add a few brief notes...but as I have been out with my mates, and currently am pissed as a parrot (isn't that the Australian slang?), I will defer to posting any more until tomorrow...or when I am sober (whichever comes first). ;)
Quote from: Deuterium on Mar 04, 2012, 06:02:04 AMChris, I think your summary was spot on. My previous explanation was most likely too long. I might add a few brief notes... but as I have been out with my mates, and currently am pissed as a parrot (isn't that the Australian slang?), I will defer to posting any more until tomorrow...or when I am sober (whichever comes first). ;)
Thanks mate! Yep, 'pissed as a parrot' is classic Australian slang. Apparently it originates from parrots getting drunk from fermented fruit and falling out of trees.
-Chris