Starting this thread off keep in mind that all theories are welcomed although will be debated.
Proceeding from a previous thread my topic here will be an elaboration on the science behind cryogenic freezing and whether the concept of it in Alien leans toward fact or fiction. The question is whether hypersleep can actually happen as depicted in the films or is it just a stretch of imagination impossible in reality.
Starting off I like to welcome that the theory of hibernation is actually quite plausible (@openmaw). The North American Wood Frog prepares for winter not by migrating or burrowing but by freezing itself in accordance to the temperature. The frog has a special protein in its body called "nucleating proteins." This causes the water in the frog to freeze to ice and in turn the liver releases glucose in the cells.
However this may not be the same case for a human being seeing as they are engineered differently.
I have yet to find if the frog still ages in the process...
Cryogenic practice happens today with freezing a legally pronounced corpse in hopes that it can be resurrected in the future.
Cryonics works only when a subject is pronounced legally dead. The reason is that being totally dead means that the body (cells to organs) is no longer intact and can be brought back where as legally dead means that your heart has stopped beating. If the heart has stopped only then can they perform their procedure not due to the inability but the legality, humans by law can't be frozen alive.
The freezing temperatures kills a human! No matter how far you try to push this to fact it remains fictitious that a human is alive while being frozen unless alterations to the anatomy are present. The reason for this is that if a human body freezes the inside of their cells expand and pushes through their walls which is a lot worst than what cancer would do to you... However, when oxygen consumption is reduced there is a potential that a human can survive in frozen suspended animation and there have been cases where this has happened. Whether this might be possible in hypersleep I wouldn't know...
Please feel free to bring some ideas :)
Thank you to Local Trouble for asking the question that brought this up. And Openmaw for his suggestion on hibernation.
Sources:
Cryonics
http://zidbits.com/2011/02/can-a-human-be-frozen-and-brought-back-to-life/ (http://zidbits.com/2011/02/can-a-human-be-frozen-and-brought-back-to-life/)
http://science.howstuffworks.com/dictionary/physics-terms/cryogenics-info.htm (http://science.howstuffworks.com/dictionary/physics-terms/cryogenics-info.htm)
North American Tree Frog
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070220-frog-antifreeze.html (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070220-frog-antifreeze.html)
No oxygen and freezing temperatures
http://m.livescience.com/6594-mystery-explained-frozen-humans-brought.html (http://m.livescience.com/6594-mystery-explained-frozen-humans-brought.html)
I don't think that "hypersleep" is actually fully freezing the occupants. I believe it is similar to 2001: A Space Odyssey, where the passenger has all life systems slowed down to an extreme point due to the body being cooled, but not frozen solid. Drugs would probably be used to help slow down and maintain the life systems.
There was a thought that besides the fact of putting the crew to sleep to conserve resources and sanity for a long journey, hyperspace travel would have negative side effects to conscious non shielded human beings. I think this was mentioned in the Colonial Marines Tech Manual (to be taken with a grain of salt), but maybe there was truth to this though the scripts or production materials of Alien and Aliens. I know they used some of this information in the creation of the book for other subjects (i.e. LV-426). Please correct me if I am wrong.
Quote from: Snark on Jun 24, 2014, 05:49:26 PM
I don't think that "hypersleep" is actually fully freezing the occupants. I believe it is similar to 2001: A Space Odyssey, where the passenger has all life systems slowed down to an extreme point due to the body being cooled, but not frozen solid. Drugs would probably be used to help slow down and maintain the life systems.
That's where the Weyland Effect blinds us.
If you were to be slowed down then wouldn't you still age? For example: If I brought the tree frog to Antarctica, waited beyond its life expectancy then bring it back and thaw it out, would it be alive?
Here's what the CMTM says:
QuoteDue to the heavy demands on the life support systems and the inverse relativistic effects of travel at supralight speeds, crew and transported personnel are usually stored for extended periods in cryogenic hypersleep capsules. While in hypersleep, the ship's automated systems maintain the crew's body functions at enormously slowed rates, reviving them when they reach their destination. This revivification process can take up to 30 minutes and is a perfectly safe process for a healthy individual.
Nice find Eighth! I wonder if there is anything that backs up if hibernation can happen in reality otherwise it seems that this would be a fiction aimed scenario. :)
The CMTM is gahbage.
Why? The hypersleep segment backs up what we see in the film.
The fact that it can't even do simple math when it comes to calculating the Sulaco's top speed means I throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Is the book considered canon?
It's an officially licensed publication from Fox. Make of that what you will.
Aren't the games officially licensed publications of Fox?
Exactly
Weyland Effect...
Not exactly
Like I said when this particular subject came up in the other thread i've always assumed the system by which this is handled is closer to an artificial form of hibernation, with much heftier dilation effects with regards to aging.
I never thought it was literally "freezing" the subjects. That, more than likely, is just a euphemism used by those who have lived with the technology and humorously liken the experience to being in a near vegetative state, or alternatively referring to "freezing" in the sense of it is halting any changes in bio-chemistry within the person's body, or at the least reducing it a few hundred fold.
Do they ever use the word "cryogenic" in any of the films?
I'm pretty sure "Cryosleep" comes up in Alien 3 and I seem to remember something along those lines in Alien Resurrection.
mmm... You see the very definition of Cryogenics (or Cryo for short) rests on extremely low temperatures below −150 °C. If Cryosleep is an official technical term in the Alien universe then it would mean that they most likely do get frozen solid.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2014, 08:27:14 PMI never thought it was literally "freezing" the subjects. That, more than likely, is just a euphemism used by those who have lived with the technology and humorously liken the experience to being in a near vegetative state, or alternatively referring to "freezing" in the sense of it is halting any changes in bio-chemistry within the person's body, or at the least reducing it a few hundred fold.
But the computers say it too. "Fire in
cryogenic compartment..."
Which then begs the question. How does the facehugger impregnate a solidly frozen Ripley?
Or is it merely sitting on her face waiting for her to defrost?
Hmm I think we may have found another contradiction in the Alien universe... (Next to Ash's routine jogs haha)
As for cryonic practice I believe there is a coagulant like antifreeze they use as an imitation for nucleating proteins, it replaces the water in a persons body. At best they can inject that in them but I don't have any evidence on what the consequences can do to a living person. If anyone is willing to search what that coagulant is it might explain further details.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jun 24, 2014, 08:55:40 PM
Which then begs the question. How does the facehugger impregnate a solidly frozen Ripley?
Or is it merely sitting on her face waiting for her to defrost?
"Stasis interrupted."
Besides, there's no evidence that it got to Ripley before the EEV crashed and there's plenty against. She would have been more or less thawed out by then.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 24, 2014, 09:32:25 PM
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jun 24, 2014, 08:55:40 PM
Which then begs the question. How does the facehugger impregnate a solidly frozen Ripley?
Or is it merely sitting on her face waiting for her to defrost?
"Stasis interrupted."
Besides, there's no evidence that it got to Ripley before the EEV crashed. She would have been more or less thawed out by then.
Just re-watched that segment. It shows us the scan of the hugger on Ripley's face at the same time the computer voice says "stasis interrupted". But like I said, maybe it was simply waiting for her to "thaw".
Watch it again. Ripley's cryotube was still intact AFTER that scene. It wasn't Ripley. SM said it can only be Hicks.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 24, 2014, 08:45:59 PM
But the computers say it too. "Fire in cryogenic compartment..."
I completely forgot about that. I just watched Alien 3 a week ago.
@Spoonman101
I do remember reading about the usage of Anti Freeze or some such similar substance in the Cryonic trials. The problem with it is, well... It causes even further damage to the body in the process. That was some years ago, but even still I doubt they'll crack the glaring issues with cryonics anytime soon. There are so many things that have to be, essentially, perfected before the program can work. Any one of them going wrong would kill the subject, and cause severe damage to any deceased subjects.
I think the term "Stasis" leans even further to this being some kind of an augmented hibernation process, suspending life functions and/or greatly limiting them.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2014, 09:46:51 PMThat was some years ago, but even still I doubt they'll crack the glaring issues with cryonics anytime soon.
I know, right? Here we are with FTL drives in our space shuttles and we
still can't crack that damn cryonics issue... >:(
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 24, 2014, 09:44:12 PM
Watch it again. Ripley's cryotube was still intact AFTER that scene. It wasn't Ripley. SM said it can only be Hicks.
Yep, that scan looks like it might be a male.
Adult teeth, too, which rules out Newt.
I guess they went through with it after all and impregnated Hicks despite Michael Biehn's objections. :laugh:
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 24, 2014, 09:49:18 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2014, 09:46:51 PMThat was some years ago, but even still I doubt they'll crack the glaring issues with cryonics anytime soon.
I know, right? Here we are with FTL drives in our space shuttles and we still can't crack that damn cryonics issue... >:(
FTL would be a
little harder than cryonics. Yet, in terms of understanding how we might do it, we're closer to FTL than we are cryo.
Of course that also depends on how you're looking at it. Theory/principle are not quite the same as engineering hurdles.
How about 'splody fusion reactors?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 24, 2014, 09:50:44 PM
Adult teeth, too, which rules out Newt.
I guess they went through with it after all and impregnated Hicks despite Michael Biehn's objections. :laugh:
Those sly FOXes! :laugh:
Well the editing makes it vague, but i'm pretty sure the intention was always for Newt, then Ripley, to be the ones impregnated. The ADI guys built that effect for the tube going down Ripley's throat (That's taken from their words on the matter.)
Script says the queen embryo swam out of Newt's mouth and into Ripley's so I'm not sure I take the ADI guys' word as gospel either.
Empirical evidence leads to Hicks.
Whoever said hypersleep subjects are "frozen solid"?
It's simply a form of suspended animation. The body is still working. There is still brain activity.
And despite what the CMTM says, it's not necessary for supralight travel.
You won't be frozen solid at −150 °C?
I'm wondering now if all of the characters were simply being facetious about dreaming during hypersleep.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jun 24, 2014, 10:19:23 PM
You won't be frozen solid at −150 °C?
Again, that is presuming we take the terms used in some of the films at face value, and not accept the possibility that these terms are being used loosely/colloquially.
I like to think that words mean things and that "cryo" means "frozen." Not sure how to reconcile that with spoken clues about brain activity during hypersleep, but Ripley sure did look good after 57 years of beddy byes.
Where did the -150 figure come from?
Prometheus mentions cryo sleep, cryo stasis, and subjects dream.
Can't you just end this whole discussion with a proclamation?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 24, 2014, 10:45:38 PM
I like to think that words mean things and that "cryo" means "frozen." Not sure how to reconcile that with spoken clues about brain activity during hypersleep, but Ripley sure did look good after 57 years of beddy byes.
So when a person uses slang terminology you take them literally? :laugh:
"Roll down the window will ya?" does not mean you literally roll the pane of glass down like it were a carpet rolled into a tube. Same principle. When Parker says "Why do you freeze him?" I never once thought he meant literally freezing Kane into a popsicle. I took it to mean an arrestation of function, to hold in the current state thereof. There's a huge chasm between those two meanings, and plenty of evidence that falls on either side.
Just going by the visual look of things (Aside from the opening of ALIENS which, as someone previously pointed out was more likely due to the Narcissus drifting through cold space for 57 years. The whole ship was frozen looking.)
Quote from: SM on Jun 24, 2014, 10:46:50 PM
Where did the -150 figure come from?
Prometheus mentions cryo sleep, cryo stasis, and subjects dream.
From "cryo" I think. :D
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2014, 10:52:14 PM
"Roll down the window will ya?" does not mean you literally roll the pane of glass down like it were a carpet rolled into a tube.
You used to roll the handle to bring the window down, though :P
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2014, 10:52:14 PMSo when a person uses slang terminology you take them literally? :laugh:
Indeed. It makes life rather awkward at times. :(
QuoteFrom "cryo" I think.
So, essentially nowhere then.
QuoteWhen Parker says "Why do you freeze him?" I never once thought he meant literally freezing Kane into a popsicle. I took it to mean an arrestation of function, to hold in the current state thereof. There's a huge chasm between those two meanings, and plenty of evidence that falls on either side.
When Parker said "Why don't you guys freeze him?" (twice effectively) he meant put Kane into hypersleep so if he was sick it would stop the disease in its tracks, and he could get proper care on Earth.
QuoteJust going by the visual look of things (Aside from the opening of ALIENS which, as someone previously pointed out was more likely due to the Narcissus drifting through cold space for 57 years. The whole ship was frozen looking.)
The marines hypersleep tubes were frosted up, but the whole ship wasn't as cold.
QuoteCan't you just end this whole discussion with a proclamation?
Lemme go find my quill and scroll.
"I'm talkin' about breathing, not this frozen shit."
Quote from: SM on Jun 24, 2014, 10:57:08 PM
So, essentially nowhere then.
Or the mind of a crazy person. I don't know. ;D
Quote from: SM on Jun 24, 2014, 10:57:08 PM
When Parker said "Why don't you guys freeze him?" (twice effectively) he meant put Kane into hypersleep so if he was sick it would stop the disease in its tracks, and he could get proper care on Earth.
Right, i'm just saying that I never took that to mean we're supposed to think of the hypersleep chambers as proverbial ice boxes.
Quote from: SM on Jun 24, 2014, 10:57:08 PM
The marines hypersleep tubes were frosted up, but the whole ship wasn't as cold.
I... I have never noticed that. For all the times i've watched the movie I never noticed. Well, that kinda ruins things. ALL FOR NOUGHT! :'(
Quote from: SiL on Jun 24, 2014, 10:54:00 PM
You used to roll the handle to bring the window down, though :P
Used to? Still freaking do, man! Goddamn kids and their powered windows... :laugh: Exactly what i'm saying, though. The phrasing is fuzzy. The behavior is operating a crank. The window isn't literally "rolled" it's
sliding. :)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 24, 2014, 10:55:20 PM
Indeed. It makes life rather awkward at times. :(
You funny man.
We are the biggest nerds ever...
Quote from: SM on Jun 24, 2014, 10:16:29 PM
Whoever said hypersleep subjects are "frozen solid"?
It's simply a form of suspended animation. The body is still working. There is still brain activity.
The film states that they were using cryonic practices in order to initiate hypersleep.
Cryogenic freezing is below -150 as stated by Eighth.
Such temperature would kill you unless there is an alternative way to preserve someone.
Here is a source on cryogenic liquids if anyone wanted to skim through it. It's from a Canadian associated health site and has some interesting details.
http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/cryogenic/cryogen1.html (http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/cryogenic/cryogen1.html)
I can speak Greek, Cryo means cold...
'Cryo' is a just a generic adjective/ prefix for suspended animation in this instance. Ditto hypersleep.
Quote from: SM on Jun 24, 2014, 11:20:57 PM
'Cryo' is a just a generic adjective/ prefix for suspended animation in this instance. Ditto hypersleep.
Canon.
Hahahaha! Gold!
Agree to disagree that this is just another controversial factor in the franchise that we will never discuss again.
All of those in favor say I
In before necromancy.
And greetings to SM of the distant future!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.news.livedoor.com%2Fnewsimage%2F0%2Fd%2F0db8b29f8ad151be53e14dd043e6edc6.jpg&hash=3653aa0af94b6fd28a0c09a0bdf74eaba3335e28)
"I'll be waiting."
I will be taking that I'll as an I. So it's settled.
Section Film and TV under forum Alien Film:
Pragmatism vs Theory
Cryogenics
Board vs The Spoon
Result:
Prefix adjusted for the term "Cryo" for canon related purposes.
Topic adjourned.
Mr. Hicks; close this thread.