Alien Timeline Updated

Started by Corporal Hicks, Feb 16, 2016, 03:20:12 PM

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Alien Timeline Updated (Read 74,863 times)

predxeno

predxeno

#15
QuoteThis isn't true whatsoever. There has always been question marks over AVP but Prometheus definitely put the matter to rest by retconning it out of existence completely.

Then why is it that AVP was retconned out?  Since Prometheus came out later, doesn't that mean Prometheus should have been retconned instead of AVP?  Like how the Prequel trilogy was retconned after the Original Trilogy?  This is all fan bias, nothing more; if Prometheus was worse than AVP, guess which title would have been retconned. 

Btw, Prometheus also contradicts Aliens and Alien: Resurrection.  Does this mean those films aren't canon, either?

QuoteThe quality of the film is irrelevant. A majority of the fanbase dislike Alien 3 and Resurrection but no one has ever suggested they are not canon.

Ohh yes they have, the idea may not have been popular on this specific board but back before the AVP films came out there was a substantial number of people dedicated to saying just that.  After the AVP films came out, the hate naturally found new titles to focus on.  Despite the fact that I actually agree that Alien 3 and Rez shouldn't be canon, I never once joined this fringe group nor did I pressure others into believing this crazy schema.

426Buddy

426Buddy

#16
I'm not sure why anyone even considers it a bad thing that avp and avpr have their own timeline. The  Predator and the Alien series were conceived as two totally different movie universes. The success of their EU matchup led to a new film universe, the AvP series.

Their quality aside, I would be happy to see all three of these series (alien covenant, the predator, and a still unannounced AvP3) go in their own directions separate from each others universes.

TheBATMAN

TheBATMAN

#17
Quote from: predxeno on Mar 20, 2016, 04:58:19 PM
Then why is it that AVP was retconned out?  Since Prometheus came out later, doesn't that mean Prometheus should have been retconned instead of AVP?  Like how the Prequel trilogy was retconned after the Original Trilogy?  This is all fan bias, nothing more; if Prometheus was worse than AVP, guess which title would have been retconned.

How can Prometheus retcon itself exactly? That would be a neat trick. At the end of the day, Prometheus had the chance to continue the ground rules set down by AVP but Ridley Scott and co decided to ignore them completely and rewrite with their own vision in mind, ergo erasing completely what came before and putting to rest any lingering doubt that AVP occupies the same universe.

Quote from: predxeno on Mar 20, 2016, 04:58:19 PM
Btw, Prometheus also contradicts Aliens and Alien: Resurrection.  Does this mean those films aren't canon, either?

How so?

Quote from: predxeno on Mar 20, 2016, 04:58:19 PM
Ohh yes they have, the idea may not have been popular on this specific board but back before the AVP films came out there was a substantial number of people dedicated to saying just that.  After the AVP films came out, the hate naturally found new titles to focus on.  Despite the fact that I actually agree that Alien 3 and Rez shouldn't be canon, I never once joined this fringe group nor did I pressure others into believing this crazy schema.

People may say that in a casual sense sure and of course everyone is entitled to their own personal universe, but no one has every presented a serious argument in any official capacity for 3 and 4 being non-canon, simply because there isn't one. There is literally no evidence that Alien 3 and Resurrection never happened therefore any argument that suggests so is invalid. It's the fan bias you keep referring to.

But your argument with fan bias for AVP is wrong. People don't count it as canon because they don't like it, they don't count it because it cannot exist alongside Prometheus. The ironic thing here is that you yourself seem to have succumbed to 'fan bias' arguing for AVP by conveniently ignoring the concepts presented in the film that ensure it cannot be part of the canon.


predxeno

predxeno

#18
QuoteHow can Prometheus retcon itself exactly? That would be a neat trick. At the end of the day, Prometheus had the chance to continue the ground rules set down by AVP but Ridley Scott and co decided to ignore them completely and rewrite with their own vision in mind, ergo erasing completely what came before and putting to rest any lingering doubt that AVP occupies the same universe.

The argument would go that since Prometheus breaks continuity with the AVP films then it registers itself as not canon to the original universe, therefore it creates and sets up its own parallel timeline.

QuotePeople may say that in a casual sense sure and of course everyone is entitled to their own personal universe, but no one has every presented a serious argument in any official capacity for 3 and 4 being non-canon, simply because there isn't one. There is literally no evidence that Alien 3 and Resurrection never happened therefore any argument that suggests so is invalid. It's the fan bias you keep referring to.

But your argument with fan bias for AVP is wrong. People don't count it as canon because they don't like it, they don't count it because it cannot exist alongside Prometheus. The ironic thing here is that you yourself seem to have succumbed to 'fan bias' arguing for AVP by conveniently ignoring the concepts presented in the film that ensure it cannot be part of the canon.

There isn't any evidence that the AVP films never occurred in the Alien timeline either; in fact, the Prometheus timeline for Weyland Industries doesn't contradict the AVP timeline at all, it even seems to pay homage to it actually by referencing the year the first AVP film was released.  I also know that the initial release of the W-Y Report does mention that Charles Weyland was an important person in the company's history; this was a title that referenced both the Alien and Prometheus movies.

It's been awhile since I heard the Alien 3 isn't canon debate, but I think one such argument was that the beginning of Alien 3 isn't concrete enough to establish the film as a legitimate sequel to Aliens.  I can't be sure whether this was a specific topic that was used though, as I said before I never took part in the not-canon argument for any title, let alone Alien 3.  Also, please see below about how Aliens and A:R also can't exist alongside Prometheus.

Quote from: TheBATMAN on Mar 20, 2016, 07:01:06 PM
Quote from: predxeno on Mar 20, 2016, 04:58:19 PM
Btw, Prometheus also contradicts Aliens and Alien: Resurrection.  Does this mean those films aren't canon, either?

How so?

Prometheus demonstrates that "The Company" has tons of advanced futuristic techology such as holo-maps, etc. however those same technologies are not present in any of the later films in the series.  In Aliens, Ripley and co. gather around a projector table when deciding how to barricade their base; if Prometheus is supposed to exist in the same timeline as Aliens then considering that Aliens takes place 85 years after Prometheus, there is no reason why the terraforming plant shouldn't have the same holographic technology that Prometheus had considering how old the technology must be by then and how terraforming is W-Y's #1 moneyfunding project ("Building Better Worlds").  Furthermore, in A: Rez, which takes place 285 years after Prometheus, the Auriga likewise doesn't have any of the technology that Prometheus had and that presents a continuity error between the titles.

For all the "discrepancies" that fans claim the AVP movies provide, they sure are lenient when it comes to judging Prometheus's own problems. :-\

426Buddy

426Buddy

#19
You act like not being apart of the regular aliens series is some kind of insult. Like I explained in my post above, its just easier and better for all involved to have 3 separate franchises, no insult to avp.


predxeno

predxeno

#20
Quote from: 420Buddy on Mar 20, 2016, 07:58:32 PM
You act like not being apart of the regular aliens series is some kind of insult. Like I explained in my post above, its just easier and better for all involved to have 3 separate franchises, no insult to avp.

I suppose you do have a point, it's just a sore topic for me since I was present way back when during the time when canon debates were all the rage and the AVP movies were single-mindedly targeted against all the other movies in the franchise.

I don't know whether this means anything or not, but AVP2010 does acknowledge both the AVP movies and the Alien movies as being part of the same universe by referencing the incident on Acheron (LV-426) and Charles Bishop Weyland.

TheBATMAN

TheBATMAN

#21
Quote from: predxeno on Mar 20, 2016, 07:42:43 PM
The argument would go that since Prometheus breaks continuity with the AVP films then it registers itself as not canon to the original universe, therefore it creates and sets up its own parallel timeline.

But what would be the reason for deliberately doing this other than to demonstrate AVP means nothing? Clearly Prometheus was written to eventually tie into the first Alien film, it was not devised to set up its own parallel timeline. By that logic it would also mean Alien Covenant would not be canon, then its two sequels after that, then Alien itself, leaving us with nothing but AVP and AVPR, which ironically is what people are saying in the first place; they exist on their own in a alternate universe.

Quote from: predxeno on Mar 20, 2016, 07:42:43 PM
Prometheus demonstrates that "The Company" has tons of advanced futuristic techology such as holo-maps, etc. however those same technologies are not present in any of the later films in the series.  In Aliens, Ripley and co. gather around a projector table when deciding how to barricade their base; if Prometheus is supposed to exist in the same timeline as Aliens then considering that Aliens takes place 85 years after Prometheus, there is no reason why the terraforming plant shouldn't have the same holographic technology that Prometheus had considering how old the technology must be by then and how terraforming is W-Y's #1 moneyfunding project ("Building Better Worlds").  Furthermore, in A: Rez, which takes place 285 years after Prometheus, the Auriga likewise doesn't have any of the technology that Prometheus had and that presents a continuity error between the titles.

For all the "discrepancies" that fans claim the AVP movies provide, they sure are lenient when it comes to judging Prometheus's own problems. :-\

Yes but you clearly know why those differences exist - that is just nitpicking to the extreme. You cannot expect a film made in 1979 to compete aesthetically with a 2012 sequel/prequel. Had the technology existed back then to create holo-maps and suchlike, they would have done it. Hell, Ridley Scott even says as much in his original Alien commentary - but there was simply no way to implement it back then, and the same in 1986. Likewise you can't expect a 2012 big-budget movie to have 1979 special effects and ZX Spectrum computers all over the bridge.

Besides, those differences also have absolutely nothing to so with the narrative, which is what we're discussing here. Canon has nothing to do with aesthetics and other superficial details. That just comes down to design choice, budget and the technological limitations of the time. Besides, it is somewhat explained that the Prometheus is the flagship of the company, outfitted with state of the art, modern tech. The Nostromo is just an old tugboat made on the cheap, likewise the Auriga centuries later.

I'm not saying Prometheus is not without its problems, but canon and continuity is not one of them. The production design of the film compared to a film made 33 years earlier is irrelevant. And let's face it should Alien or Aliens ever get remade (god-forbid), both the Nostromo and the colony would look vastly different than their original counterparts and much more in line with Prometheus, and that has nothing to do with narrative, only that technology has moved on.

I still watch the AVP films occasionally, and I'll defend Requiem more than most, but they are not part of the primary universe. It's as simple as that.

predxeno

predxeno

#22
QuoteBut what would be the reason for deliberately doing this other than to demonstrate AVP means nothing? Clearly Prometheus was written to eventually tie into the first Alien film, it was not devised to set up its own parallel timeline. By that logic it would also mean Alien Covenant would not be canon, then its two sequels after that, then Alien itself, leaving us with nothing but AVP and AVPR, which ironically is what people are saying in the first place; they exist on their own in a alternate universe.

I'm actually discussing this from a fan perspective rather than from a director perspective (fans have been saying the AVP films were not canon long before Prometheus came out); when it comes to canon, it seems fans have an overly powerful say in the matter.  I'm just saying that as of late, fans have been rather superficial about the whole process of selection when it comes to choosing which films are canon and which aren't.  As I've mentioned before, these same fans have dictated that the Prequel Trilogy for Star Wars isn't canon and they come up with lots of rationalized excuses for why that is which include plot discrepancies, dumb characters, etc (the very same excuses they use for this franchise as well).  I just want to point out that this is all due to bias and prejudice rather than an actual attempt to create a cohesive canon.

QuoteYes but you clearly know why those differences exist - that is just nitpicking to the extreme. You cannot expect a film made in 1979 to compete aesthetically with a 2012 sequel/prequel. Had the technology existed back then to create holo-maps and suchlike, they would have done it. Hell, Ridley Scott even says as much in his original Alien commentary - but there was simply no way to implement it back then, and the same in 1986. Likewise you can't expect a 2012 big-budget movie to have 1979 special effects and ZX Spectrum computers all over the bridge.

Besides, those differences also have absolutely nothing to so with the narrative, which is what we're discussing here. Canon has nothing to do with aesthetics and other superficial details. That just comes down to design choice, budget and the technological limitations of the time. Besides, it is somewhat explained that the Prometheus is the flagship of the company, outfitted with state of the art, modern tech. The Nostromo is just an old tugboat made on the cheap, likewise the Auriga centuries later.

Actually, if you watch the special feature documentaries for Alien; the 1979 classic was filmed and designed to have a dark and retro feel to it.  Ridley Scott did not like how all the new space movies at the time like Star Wars and such had their spaceships so technologically advanced and bright so he deliberately made the Nostromo darker and more "built from crap"-like.  The "aesthetics" of the first film are rather VERY important in this regard because they were designed with deliberate intent by Ridley Scott, not because of lack of technology.

TheBATMAN

TheBATMAN

#23
Quote from: predxeno on Mar 20, 2016, 08:11:51 PM
I'm actually discussing this from a fan perspective rather than from a director perspective (fans have been saying the AVP films were not canon long before Prometheus came out); when it comes to canon, it seems fans have an overly powerful say in the matter.  I'm just saying that as of late, fans have been rather superficial about the whole process of selection when it comes to choosing which films are canon and which aren't.  As I've mentioned before, these same fans have dictated that the Prequel Trilogy for Star Wars isn't canon and they come up with lots of rationalized excuses for why that is which include plot discrepancies, dumb characters, etc (the very same excuses they use for this franchise as well).  I just want to point out that this is all due to bias and prejudice rather than an actual attempt to create a cohesive canon.

Fans are entitled to believe what they want to believe, but we also have no say on what is and isn't canon at the end of the day. People can argue that Alien 3, Resurrection, the Star Wars prequels may not be canon, but they are wasting their time as none of their arguments have any merit because there is no evidence. A universe as convoluted as Star Wars is bound to have small plot discrepancies sure, but clearly the prequels were written to add to the canon, not be part of an expanded universe. There really is no argument to be had there. Accidentally making a mistake/discrepancy in the narrative is entirely different to purposefully changing something, which is what they did with Prometheus over AVP.

People argue for the inclusion of AVP with bias and prejudice because there is nothing else to use. There is no evidence . I agree that the canon of the Alien universe has always been muddled, but for the first time Fox seem to be trying to start again and craft something that is structured and something that fits, and it all started with Prometheus. They could have included AVP in that had they wanted to, but they deliberately didn't - and that is key.

Quote from: predxeno on Mar 20, 2016, 08:11:51 PM
Actually, if you watch the special feature documentaries for Alien; the 1979 classic was filmed and designed to have a dark and retro feel to it.  Ridley Scott did not like how all the new space movies at the time like Star Wars and such had their spaceships so technologically advanced and bright so he deliberately made the Nostromo darker and more "built from crap"-like.  The "aesthetics" of the first film are rather VERY important in this regard because they were designed with deliberate intent by Ridley Scott, not because of lack of technology.

Yes, that's partly correct but its still down to a lack of technology. In his commentary Scott says it would be logical that 150 years in the future, computers would be smaller and everything would be high-definition flat screen - but there was simply no way for him to implement that back in 1979. But Scott's reasoning for making the Nostromo 'dark and retro' and 'built from crap' is also a good-enough explanation to overlook why the Prometheus looks so different does it not? The basic architecture looks the same with the walls, decor, hatches etc, but it's the technology that makes it stand out.

predxeno

predxeno

#24
QuoteFans are entitled to believe what they want to believe, but we also have no say on what is and isn't canon at the end of the day. People can argue that Alien 3, Resurrection, the Star Wars prequels may not be canon, but they are wasting their time as none of their arguments have any merit because there is no evidence. A universe as convoluted as Star Wars is bound to have small plot discrepancies sure, but clearly the prequels were written to add to the canon, not be part of an expanded universe. There really is no argument to be had there. Accidentally making a mistake/discrepancy in the narrative is entirely different to purposefully changing something, which is what they did with Prometheus over AVP.

I get what you're saying though I'm not sure the two examples are comparable; we don't know whether or not Ridley Scott deliberately made Prometheus to conflict with AVP nor do we know whether George Lucas made a mistake in his Star Wars series or whether he knew what he was doing and decided to screw continuity anyway. 

Out of curiosity, do you consider A:CM canon?  I know that Fox and its developers definitely consider it to be canon and strongly advertised it as such, but strangely enough fans are more likely to think Alien: Isolation is more canon than the aforementioned title.

SM

SM

#25
Quote from: predxeno on Mar 20, 2016, 05:35:16 AM
The two are separate because the author of the timelines has allowed his personal biases to guide what he thinks the timelines should be rather than what they actually are.

No, he didn't.

426Buddy

426Buddy

#26
I personally don't consider anything but the films as canon to their own universes.

Fans probably would have been more accepting of ACM in general if its story and retcons hadnt been so mind numbingly stupid.

predxeno

predxeno

#27
I understand why people wouldn't want the EU of some franchises to be canon; I've taken a look at Terminator's EU and it's riddled with stories that were obviously made with little thought but with big hopes for quick cash.  However, I think we need to take the intentions of every author into account rather than just one author, whether Ridley Scott or otherwise.  I may not like certain titles in a franchise, but I certainly won't dismiss it just because I don't like it.  Separating all 3 franchises into 3 timelines actually sounds like a neat idea now that I think about it more, I just don't think the people who are actually in charge of the franchise are going to do that which means this idea will likely be a fan idea only (not that it matters really, considering that Alien 5 is going to reinvent the whole timeline issue anyway :-\).

TheBATMAN

TheBATMAN

#28
Quote from: predxeno on Mar 20, 2016, 09:14:06 PM
I get what you're saying though I'm not sure the two examples are comparable; we don't know whether or not Ridley Scott deliberately made Prometheus to conflict with AVP nor do we know whether George Lucas made a mistake in his Star Wars series or whether he knew what he was doing and decided to screw continuity anyway.

Well we do know because Furious Gods shows Lindelof tried to explain the AVP canon and Weyland back story to Ridley and the response was not favourable to say the least. Scott has purposefully avoided AVP for a reason it would seem and clearly had no intention to ever include it.

Quote from: predxeno on Mar 20, 2016, 09:14:06 PM
Out of curiosity, do you consider A:CM canon?  I know that Fox and its developers definitely consider it to be canon and strongly advertised it as such, but strangely enough fans are more likely to think Alien: Isolation is more canon than the aforementioned title.

No, because it doesn't fit. The Company having ready access to the derelict post Aliens completely negates Michael Bishop's mission in Alien 3 and the whole concept of later cloning Ripley and the unborn Queen inside her. I believe Fox's canon stance in the build up to the game's release was purely to help the marketing. Post-release, they have been surprisingly quiet about the subject surprise surprise.

So like AVP, I don't discount ACM because of the quality of the product, I discount it because it simply cannot work.

predxeno

predxeno

#29
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Mar 20, 2016, 09:41:20 PM
Quote from: predxeno on Mar 20, 2016, 09:14:06 PM
Out of curiosity, do you consider A:CM canon?  I know that Fox and its developers definitely consider it to be canon and strongly advertised it as such, but strangely enough fans are more likely to think Alien: Isolation is more canon than the aforementioned title.

No, because it doesn't fit. The Company having ready access to the derelict post Aliens completely negates Michael Bishop's mission in Alien 3 and the whole concept of later cloning Ripley and the unborn Queen inside her. I believe Fox's canon stance in the build up to the game's release was purely to help the marketing. Post-release, they have been surprisingly quiet about the subject surprise surprise.

So like AVP, I don't discount ACM because of the quality of the product, I discount it because it simply cannot work.

I think Michael Bishop found the derelict post after Ripley's sacrifice.  As for the connection with A:R, yeah, the novelization claims the Derelict was destroyed, but the EU has W-Y acquire Aliens through other means anyways.  Personally, I just take it that the Auriga cloned Ripley probably because it was the easiest way to get their hands on an illegal alien organism without getting caught.

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