So, is Aliens still considered canon?

Started by armageddon, May 31, 2012, 07:36:41 AM

Author
So, is Aliens still considered canon? (Read 10,062 times)

Mastes1

If the company didn't know about the xeno in ALIEN then why did they they give Ash the secret 'bring back lifeform, crew expendable' directive?.
The company did know and i can remember seeing an interview or reading something (possible on the quadology extras) saying that the company classified everything to do with the xeno and LV-426 after the events in ALIEN and thats why they 'seem' unaware of the derelict etc (it has been 57 years remember).
Also i always thought that the final Prometheus film (if they do end up doing the sequels) will explain the derelict on LV-426, explain the sos signal and the xeno etc and explain how the company DID know about the derelict and xeno in ALIEN.

OpenMaw

Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 12:22:05 PM
If the company didn't know about the xeno in ALIEN then why did they they give Ash the secret 'bring back lifeform, crew expendable' directive?.

As others have speculated, the Special Order was probably one of many that were within muther. Just like the whole line about muther having certain circumstances for waking the crew.

Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 12:22:05 PM
The company did know and i can remember seeing an interview or reading something (possible on the quadology extras) saying that the company classified everything to do with the xeno and LV-426 after the events in ALIEN and thats why they 'seem' unaware of the derelict etc (it has been 57 years remember).

"they" were unware. Burke acted alone in Aliens. For his own gain. There was not even a hint of bigger corporate involvement.

Mohawksinspace

Quote from: OpenMaw on May 31, 2012, 12:25:38 PM
Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 12:22:05 PM
If the company didn't know about the xeno in ALIEN then why did they they give Ash the secret 'bring back lifeform, crew expendable' directive?.

As others have speculated, the Special Order was probably one of many that were within muther. Just like the whole line about muther having certain circumstances for waking the crew.

Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 12:22:05 PM
The company did know and i can remember seeing an interview or reading something (possible on the quadology extras) saying that the company classified everything to do with the xeno and LV-426 after the events in ALIEN and thats why they 'seem' unaware of the derelict etc (it has been 57 years remember).

"they" were unware. Burke acted alone in Aliens. For his own gain. There was not even a hint of bigger corporate involvement.

Agree.

The infamous Xeno directive only came about AFTER exposure.

Parker

If the Nostromo simply disappeared after the LV-426 landing, I was always curious as to why they never sent another expedition out to investigate the distress signal.  And why didn't Hadley's Hope pick up the signal decades before Burke sent them out there?

Mastes1

Mastes1

#19
Quote from: OpenMaw on May 31, 2012, 12:25:38 PM
Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 12:22:05 PM
If the company didn't know about the xeno in ALIEN then why did they they give Ash the secret 'bring back lifeform, crew expendable' directive?.

As others have speculated, the Special Order was probably one of many that were within muther. Just like the whole line about muther having certain circumstances for waking the crew.

Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 12:22:05 PM
The company did know and i can remember seeing an interview or reading something (possible on the quadology extras) saying that the company classified everything to do with the xeno and LV-426 after the events in ALIEN and thats why they 'seem' unaware of the derelict etc (it has been 57 years remember).

"they" were unware. Burke acted alone in Aliens. For his own gain. There was not even a hint of bigger corporate involvement.
Its implied in ALIEN (at least imo anyway) that the company purposely replaced the Nostramo's usual science officer with Ash, why have that dialogue scene in it unless the viewer is supposed to think that Ash was replaced on purpose.

Yeah i agree on the Burke thing and said as much, all knowledge of the derelcit and xeno had been classified 57 years earlier, i definately either read or watched someone saying that ages ago (i do think its probably on the 'making of ALIENS' documentary on the quadology extras).


Quote from: Mohawksinspace on May 31, 2012, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on May 31, 2012, 12:25:38 PM
Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 12:22:05 PM
If the company didn't know about the xeno in ALIEN then why did they they give Ash the secret 'bring back lifeform, crew expendable' directive?.

As others have speculated, the Special Order was probably one of many that were within muther. Just like the whole line about muther having certain circumstances for waking the crew.

Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 12:22:05 PM
The company did know and i can remember seeing an interview or reading something (possible on the quadology extras) saying that the company classified everything to do with the xeno and LV-426 after the events in ALIEN and thats why they 'seem' unaware of the derelict etc (it has been 57 years remember).

"they" were unware. Burke acted alone in Aliens. For his own gain. There was not even a hint of bigger corporate involvement.

Agree.

The infamous Xeno directive only came about AFTER exposure.
Well why would it come up in the film beforehand?, and it only came up because of Ripley doing a bit of hacking on mother, it was for the eyes of Ash only.

OpenMaw

OpenMaw

#20
Likely because they had just lost what they said was "42 million in adjusted dollars." Minus whatever precious materials they were hauling.

To the other:
1) The signal could have deactivated once Dallas and co. entered the derelict.

2) As was described by Cameron, the derelict was damaged by lava/seismic activity. Which would have damaged the beacon between the time of Alien and the colony being established years later.

Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 12:31:08 PM
Its implied in ALIEN (at least imo anyway) that the company purposely replaced the Nostramo's usual science officer with Ash, why have that dialogue scene in it unless the viewer is supposed to think that Ash was replaced on purpose.

There's a difference between replacing the science officer and having an interest in a signal, and then on the other hand knowing that the crew are going to find eggs that have a parasitic organism that gives you a seven foot tall bio-mechanoid death machine that bleeds acid.

If they had such specifics, they would have done one better than just having ill equipped space truckers try and bring one back in a haphazard fashion. They would have sent in a special team designed for recovery, isolation, and study. Right? Think about it. As a corporation, if you want something that badly, you'd want the job handled by professionals with solid equipment and training for that kind of thing to work with.

I very much doubt they had specifics beyond "There's someone talking out there in an alien language. GO THERE." And then once there, the Special Order came into effect for Ash. It was a numbered order, remember. They probably put hundreds of them in there for all possible eventualities.


Aceburster

 The Prometheus is apparently a flagship, its like having the QEII go missing and everyone just goes v(n_n)v and forgets about it. Surely the company knows exactly where they went and would demand to know what happened to their property.

The planet and all evidence would have to get vaporized for WY to wash their hands of it and THEN theres no reason to throw any more money at figuring out what happened unless it jumps right out at you somewhere along the way.

Perhaps in a sequel...

Mastes1

Quote from: OpenMaw on May 31, 2012, 12:35:16 PM
Likely because they had just lost what they said was "42 million in adjusted dollars." Minus whatever precious materials they were hauling.

To the other:
1) The signal could have deactivated once Dallas and co. entered the derelict.

2) As was described by Cameron, the derelict was damaged by lava/seismic activity. Which would have damaged the beacon between the time of Alien and the colony being established years later.

Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 12:31:08 PM
Its implied in ALIEN (at least imo anyway) that the company purposely replaced the Nostramo's usual science officer with Ash, why have that dialogue scene in it unless the viewer is supposed to think that Ash was replaced on purpose.

There's a difference between replacing the science officer and having an interesting a signal, and knowing that the crew are going to fix eggs that have a parasitic organism that gives you a seven foot tall bio-mechanoid death machine that bleeds acid. If they had such specifics, they would have done one better than just having ill equipped space truckers try and bring one back in a haphazard fashion. They would have sent in a special team designed for recovery, isolation, and study. Right? Think about it. As a corporation, if you want something that badly, you'd want the job handled by professionals with solid equipment to work with.

I very much doubt they had specifics beyond "There's someone talking out there in an alien language. GO THERE." And then once there, the Special Order came into effect for Ash. It was a numbered order, remember. They probably put hundreds of them in there for all possible eventualities.
I dissagree, if they knew about face huggers and the gesstation period etc, what better 'cover' for bringing a xeno back to Earth would there be than a lowly mining ship bringing its cargo back to Earth (especialy as its also implied in the film that its company policy that any contaminated crew member needs to be frozen for the trip back to Earth).
A large military or scientific expedition would probably bring a lot of un-needed questions from the public and media of that time, no one would be asking quations about a routine mining expediton.

OpenMaw

Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 12:44:19 PM
I dissagree, if they knew about face huggers and the gesstation period etc, what better 'cover' for bringing a xeno back to Earth would there be than a lowly mining ship bringing its cargo back to Earth (especialy as its also implied in the film that its company policy that any contaminated crew member needs to be frozen for the trip back to Earth).
A large military or scientific expedition would probably bring a lot of un-needed questions from the public and media of that time, no one would be asking quations about a routine mining expediton.

That's really moronic of them. I guess that's why WY was bought out by Walmart.  ;D

If i'm running W.Y., and i'm running the Bioweapons division. With this specific level of information, i'm not going to trust some space truckers with it. Not to mention, we're talking black bag operation here. This would be done very quietly with a lot of smoke and mirrors. If it's actually dangerous, you don't want to risk what happened in the movie to actually happen.  It implies W.Y. is run by morons. Either they knew how dangerous it was, and didn't care (which is stupid simply from the risk of losing profits situation. The ship, the payload, and the crew which were all space veterans who knew their jobs very well.)

Eva

Eva

#24
There's nothing in Prometheus, suggesting that anyone back on Earth have any knowledge where the Prometheus was headed, its mission etc.

Spoiler
It is stated right at the beginning that these details are classified. There's no communications with Earth. Instead, David is alert on whether they've recieved a signal from their destination, suggesting that the Prometheus is attempting to contact whoever they expect to find, prior to arrival. It's very evident when the briefing scene occurs, that most of the crew are totally dismissive of the notion that they are out there looking for traces of an alien civilization.
[close]

For all we know, a few key crewmembers are the only ones who know where they are headed. Back on Earth, people could have been lead to believe that the ship was built for a different purpouse, exploring a different part of our galaxy. A cover story in other words. As such, back on Earth I'd expect there would be little interest in figuring out what happened to the Prometheus and spending another billion dollars to follow up on such an interest with a new mission. The Prometheus expedition doesn't come across as a Weyland company venture as such - more a Peter Weyland venture.

szkoki

Quote from: harlock on May 31, 2012, 09:32:53 AM
I know in Cameron's original script it was explained the Company only kept things on file for 50 years then got rid of it.


lol what ???? omg what a bullshit xD ...sorry mate its not your fault but how can a writer come up with such a childish idea?????!!!!!!

Mastes1

Mastes1

#26
Quote from: OpenMaw on May 31, 2012, 12:53:06 PM
Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 12:44:19 PM
I dissagree, if they knew about face huggers and the gesstation period etc, what better 'cover' for bringing a xeno back to Earth would there be than a lowly mining ship bringing its cargo back to Earth (especialy as its also implied in the film that its company policy that any contaminated crew member needs to be frozen for the trip back to Earth).
A large military or scientific expedition would probably bring a lot of un-needed questions from the public and media of that time, no one would be asking quations about a routine mining expediton.

That's really moronic of them. I guess that's why WY was bought out by Walmart.  ;D

If i'm running W.Y., and i'm running the Bioweapons division. With this specific level of information, i'm not going to trust some space truckers with it. Not to mention, we're talking black bag operation here. This would be done very quietly with a lot of smoke and mirrors. If it's actually dangerous, you don't want to risk what happened in the movie to actually happen.  It implies W.Y. is run by morons. Either they knew how dangerous it was, and didn't care (which is stupid simply from the risk of losing profits situation. The ship, the payload, and the crew which were all space veterans who knew their jobs very well.)
They send the Nostramo to the derelict, one or more crew memebers gets infected, its company policy to freeze and contaminated crew members for the trip back to Earth, it sounds like a pretty routine way to do this (as long as the Nostramo crew stick to company rules of course).
Also if they sent a sientific/military 'company approved' expedition, how would they get around the fact that they need to 'sacrifice' someone in order to get the xeno?, tell them to pull straws? ;D



Quote from: Eva on May 31, 2012, 12:56:39 PM
There's nothing in Prometheus, suggesting that anyone back on Earth have any knowledge where the Prometheus was headed, its mission etc.

Spoiler
It is stated right at the beginning that these details are classified. There's no communications with Earth. Instead, David is alert on whether they've recieved a signal from their destination, suggesting that the Prometheus is attempting to contact whoever they expect to find, prior to arrival. It's very evident when the briefing scene occurs, that most of the crew are totally dismissive of the notion that they are out there looking for traces of an alien civilization.
[close]

For all we know, a few key crewmembers are the only ones who know where they are headed. Back on Earth, people could have been lead to believe that the ship was built for a different purpouse, exploring a different part of our galaxy. A cover story in other words. As such, back on Earth I'd expect there would be little interest in figuring out what happened to the Prometheus and spending another billion dollars to follow up on such an interest with a new mission. The Prometheus expedition doesn't come across as a Weyland company venture as such - more a Peter Weyland venture.
No one said there was, we are talking about ALIEN here. ;)


Quote from: szkoki on May 31, 2012, 01:00:24 PM
Quote from: harlock on May 31, 2012, 09:32:53 AM
I know in Cameron's original script it was explained the Company only kept things on file for 50 years then got rid of it.


lol what ???? omg what a bullshit xD ...sorry mate its not your fault but how can a writer come up with such a childish idea?????!!!!!!
Thats not exactly correct, not from what i read anyway, everything to do with LV-426 and the derelict etc was classified at the highest level of the company after what happened in ALIEN, probably to do with the share holders i'd guess as i'm sure they wouldn't be happy knowing that the Nostromo and its cargo was destroyed because of something the company was involved in.

OpenMaw

Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 01:00:34 PM
They send the Nostramo to the derelict, one or more crew memebers gets infected, its company policy to freeze and contaminated crew members for the trip back to Earth, it sounds like a pretty routine way to do this (as long as the Nostramo crew stick to company rules of course).

Ash would have known that and he would have done so. He didn't.

Also, the law, and the rules, were 24 hours for decontamination. The "freezing" thing was never indicated to be standard op. Quarantine on the other hand was.

Remember, if Ash is under these specific orders from the get go, he would have just turned to Dallas and said "Dallas, we should freeze Kane immediately." And Dallas, as he did with everything else Ash suggested would have said "Okay, Ash, it's your call."

Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 01:00:34 PM
Also if they sent a sientific/military 'company approved' expedition, how would they get around the fact that they need to 'sacrifice' someone in order to get the xeno?, tell them to pull straws? ;D

Why would they need to start with human test subjects? They'd probably use what we always use; animal testing. They don't have to infect anybody on sight. Just collect the eggs using androids, and store them in very strong freezer units for the trip home.


Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 01:00:34 PM
No one said there was, we are talking about ALIEN here. ;)

Somebody did, actually. :)

Eva

Eva

#28
Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 01:00:34 PM
No one said there was, we are talking about ALIEN here. ;)

Aceburster was specifically addressing Prometheus in his post above - not Alien  :)

Perhaps I should have quoted his post to avoid confusion

Mastes1

Quote from: OpenMaw on May 31, 2012, 01:06:27 PM
Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 01:00:34 PM
They send the Nostramo to the derelict, one or more crew memebers gets infected, its company policy to freeze and contaminated crew members for the trip back to Earth, it sounds like a pretty routine way to do this (as long as the Nostramo crew stick to company rules of course).

Ash would have known that and he would have done so. He didn't.

Also, the law, and the rules, were 24 hours for decontamination. The "freezing" thing was never indicated to be standard op. Quarantine on the other hand was.

Remember, if Ash is under these specific orders from the get go, he would have just turned to Dallas and said "Dallas, we should freeze Kane immediately." And Dallas, as he did with everything else Ash suggested would have said "Okay, Ash, it's your call."


Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 01:00:34 PM
Also if they sent a sientific/military 'company approved' expedition, how would they get around the fact that they need to 'sacrifice' someone in order to get the xeno?, tell them to pull straws? ;D

Why would they need to start with human test subjects? They'd probably use what we always use; animal testing. They don't have to infect anybody on sight. Just collect the eggs using androids, and store them in very strong freezer units for the trip home.


Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 01:00:34 PM
No one said there was, we are talking about ALIEN here. ;)

Somebody did, actually. :)
But we know Ash isn't all there so to speak, maybe he was supposed to freeze them but didn't as he wanted to see the 'perfect organism'.

Fair point about the animal testing but again this all goes back to what knowlege the company knows about all this and we don't know for sure either way.

I didn't ralise someone had mentioned Prometheus and company knowledge in this thread, my mistake.


Quote from: Eva on May 31, 2012, 01:14:12 PM
Quote from: Mastes1 on May 31, 2012, 01:00:34 PM
No one said there was, we are talking about ALIEN here. ;)

Aceburster was specifically addressing Prometheus in his post above - not Alien  :)

Perhaps I should have quoted his post to avoid confusion
My mistake, open maw corrected me.

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