Scott: We are going to make another Alien movie

[Scorpio]

There is AI in the first film.  You could even call it Ash.  Ash is the main villain of Alien. MUTHUR is the secondary villain, also an AI.

Dark fantasy is cool.  Alien Covenant is like dark fantasy.  It's different from the other Alien movies.

Different is good. 

[Jonesy1974]

I reckon it is. Also that he was never much into horror to begin with, so I don't think he's kept up with the fact that modern horror audiences are eagerly consuming slower -- or at least more deliberately -- paced films.

I think, though, is that a bigger problem is he forgot the one key lesson that arguably makes any good horror film effective: keep it f**king simple. He's trying to scare audiences and pontificate on man's place in the universe and hold a discourse on artificial intelligence and it's just too much at once.

I'm not sure about that. Many of the greatest horror movies are about much more than just the scares, The Exorcist for instance. Maybe its more about the focus, what the primary goal of the film is. Ridley said he wanted to scare us but that doesn't really feel like his primary focus.

As much as I like them I agree though that Covenant and Prometheus aren't scary. Both films have moments of tension but as you say they don't build up any sense of dread and that's key to making a film truly scary. They don't take enough time to crank up the fear of the unknown and what is to come.

[SiL]

Everything in The Exorcist is still tied to the exorcist and exorcism. It's still a very simple thing, even if it is explored in depth.

RE calling the first film Ash, that's really over seeking it.

Ruminations about AI are what Blade Runner is about. Ash is a glorified 1950s mad scientist, and calling Mother any sort of primary antagonist is asinine. It's a movie about an alien terrorising truckers in space, everything else is dressing.

And that's exactly how they wanted it to be when they made it.

[Scorpio]

Ash is more the Russian Spy, Dr Wren is the 1950s mad scientist.

[Biomechanoid]

I'm not sure about that. Many of the greatest horror movies are about much more than just the scares, The Exorcist for instance.

Agreed, and you offer a great example how a film doesn't have to be "f**king simple" to be effective. I think I see Sil's point to some extent, though I'm not sure what he means about no thread connecting them.

None of the horrific scenes of The Exorcist come across to me as disconnected to the other plot aspect of a man who's lost his faith, yet is challenged by one of the most powerful forces associated to his lost faith. The horrific transformation of Regan is very much intertwined with Karris' internal struggle with faith and battles a dark force to save another.

The various creatures of AC are intertwined with David's struggle to make himself a creator. None of the horrific scenes of AC come across to me as disconnected to a being who's strayed from his original purpose why he was created, yet is challenged by his creators, and battles to save his own creation.

Without the horrific demon, there would be no Karris story worth telling.
Without the horrific aliens, there would be no David story worth telling.
You can't get much more thread connected than that.

[Scorpio]

Anyone who says "The Exorcist is about a possessed girl that vomits pea soup", obviously doesn't get it.  There are so much more layers than that.

Just like anybody who says "Alien is about a monster that kills people". 

[Biomechanoid]

Anyone who says "The Exorcist is about a possessed girl that vomits pea soup", obviously doesn't get it.

Actually, it's not pea soup, the script explains it is actually bile.

[Jonesy1974]

I'm not sure about that. Many of the greatest horror movies are about much more than just the scares, The Exorcist for instance.

Agreed, and you offer a great example how a film doesn't have to be "f**king simple" to be effective. I think I see Sil's point to some extent, though I'm not sure what he means about no thread connecting them.

None of the horrific scenes of The Exorcist come across to me as disconnected to the other plot aspect of a man who's lost his faith, yet is challenged by one of the most powerful forces associated to his lost faith. The horrific transformation of Regan is very much intertwined with Karris' internal struggle with faith and battles a dark force to save another.

The various creatures of AC are intertwined with David's struggle to make himself a creator. None of the horrific scenes of AC come across to me as disconnected to a being who's strayed from his original purpose why he was created, yet is challenged by his creators, and battles to save his own creation.

Without the horrific demon, there would be no Karris story worth telling.
Without the horrific aliens, there would be no David story worth telling.
You can't get much more thread connected than that.

Yeah I think it all knits together pretty well and I found the story to be compelling but it doesn't manage to combine that with being scary sadly. I feel that's down to pacing more than anything, particularly once the Alien is born.

[Paranoid Android]

Anyone who says "The Exorcist is about a possessed girl that vomits pea soup", obviously doesn't get it.  There are so much more layers than that.

Just like anybody who says "Alien is about a monster that kills people".

Actually, anyone who says that about both The Exorcist and Alien does get it. It's exactly what those movies are about. The fact that they have layers doesn't dismiss that any more than having layers makes an Onion not an Onion.

[Biomechanoid]

Yeah I think it all knits together pretty well and I found the story to be compelling but it doesn't manage to combine that with being scary sadly.

Once again, agreed. I never felt scared throughout AC. But then, I would have to go several years back when a movie scared me through and through. There's been some fleeting moments of fear in newer films, but they are few and far between.

That said, I can still enjoy a well produced horror movie sans any moments of fear. For examples, Diabolique and The Shining, not a single moment of fear, but great horror films.

[reecebomb]

There is AI in the first film.  You could even call it Ash.  Ash is the main villain of Alien. MUTHUR is the secondary villain, also an AI.

Dark fantasy is cool.  Alien Covenant is like dark fantasy.  It's different from the other Alien movies.

Different is good.

Ash was much more believable, perfect really. David was basically a fantasy B-Movie mad scientist b2b comic book villain, Fassbender understood it and pulled it off with some sense of fun, but this is not something that i'm interested too see in an Alien film. Original Alien felt real and the style of prequels would clash with Alien even if they were good films. Alien was a direct contrast to Star Wars and Star Trek, again one of the reasons it was so successful and unique. Im repeating myself here but the the Alien, the AI, the space jockey, the space jockey ship, the company, the characters were given a modern fantasy/comic book style treatment, i'm just not buying that the prequels take place in the same universe as the original films, too many clashes and inconcistencies.

I like fantasy, love Ridely Scott's Legend for it's immersive audio-visual experience, that for me makes up for the the thin plot. Covenant looked very average overall, with a few good bits and some were really poor,it should have been special coming from Ridley.

Yeah I think it all knits together pretty well and I found the story to be compelling but it doesn't manage to combine that with being scary sadly.

Once again, agreed. I never felt scared throughout AC. But then, I would have to go several years back when a movie scared me through and through. There's been some fleeting moments of fear in newer films, but they are few and far between.

That said, I can still enjoy a well produced horror movie sans any moments of fear. For examples, Diabolique and The Shining, not a single moment of fear, but great horror films.

Another reason why Prometheus and Covenant were not scary besides the poor pacing was the lack of proper atmosphere required in an  Alien film due to visuals, sound design, music (the soundtrack to neomorph birth was ok though) and of course the npc like characters. Alien is pretty damn stressful even if there's nothing particularly scary happening on the screen, Nostromo itself was terrifying imo the moment the film started.
I think Alien nailed the atmosphere, but Aliens and Alien 3 with it's prison setting were great too and continued the trend, the prequels were lacking in that area.

Edit: there are plenty scary bits in The Shining and of course the movie had masterful atmosphere. Diabolique is a very good film, but it's most likely not scary due to age, back then it must have been quite scary, when the audience weren't so desensitized.

[Jonesy1974]

Yeah I think it all knits together pretty well and I found the story to be compelling but it doesn't manage to combine that with being scary sadly.

Once again, agreed. I never felt scared throughout AC. But then, I would have to go several years back when a movie scared me through and through. There's been some fleeting moments of fear in newer films, but they are few and far between.

That said, I can still enjoy a well produced horror movie sans any moments of fear. For examples, Diabolique and The Shining, not a single moment of fear, but great horror films.

Another reason why Prometheus and Covenant were not scary besides the poor pacing was the lack of proper atmosphere required in an  Alien film due to visuals, sound desing, music (the soundtrack to neomorph birth was ok though) and of course the npc like characters. Alien is pretty damn stressful even if there's nothing particularly scary happening on the screen, Nostromo itself was terrifying imo the moment the film started.
I think Alien nailed the atmosphere, but Aliens and Alien 3 with it's prison setting were great too and continued the trend, the prequels were lacking that area.
[/quote]

I don't think anythings wrong with the visuals, both planets had an eerie feel to me and I think the music, particularly in Covenant is excellent. The characters are no more npc than Alien in truth.

I do think the pacing is an issue but familiarity also has a big impact. My kids and mates tell me films like Lights Out and Mama are terrifying but when I watch them they barely register. I feel much the same way about Covenant as I do IT, I like both films and think they are good but neither work as horror movies for me. I've just seen it all before.

[Biomechanoid]

Ash was much more believable, perfect really.

Ash, of course, is my favorite of androids, but in all fairness, he is presented quite differently than David and Bishop. Pretty early in both the 86 and newer films the audience discovers David and Bishop are androids. So of course Ash is more believable / perfect, most of the movie time the audience believed he is a human, or had no reason to even raise the question if he is human.

Up until late in the film with the attack on Ripley, the film had never indicated that android technology even existed in that cinema universe. Ash is perfect because it was a perfect set up to deceive the audience. That element of surprise gives the Ash android a much bigger impact on the drama unfolding. His actual "android time" is quite minimal.

[reecebomb]

I don't think anythings wrong with the visuals, both planets had an eerie feel to me and I think the music, particularly in Covenant is excellent. The characters are no more npc than Alien in truth.

I do think the pacing is an issue but familiarity also has a big impact. My kids and mates tell me films like Lights Out and Mama are terrifying but when I watch them they barely register. I feel much the same way about Covenant as I do IT, I like both films and think they are good but neither work as horror movies for me. I've just seen it all before.

You're right that there's not anything wrong with the visuals, they are mostly adequate but if you're doing an official prequel to Alien, you need to go the extra mile. I think Prometheus was easily better looking film than Covenant, but Prometheus often looked too perfect, the perfect lightning with the perfectly lit faces, for me it took away from the atmosphere. And i'm unable to forget the image of Peter Weyland, he looked ridiculous, something that could have been easily avoided by casting an actor who doesn't need prosthetics to look old.  The visuals juxtaposed with the music produced atmosphere that was more Star Trek than Alien.

Covenant luckily went for more grimy look, good enough for a random sci-fi these days but undeniably subpar compared to earlier Alien films. Due to pacing and other factors, the better moments weren't able to make a proper impact. Then there were issues that could have been simply avoided like with Prometheus, for example the scene with David wiping out the engineers. I imagine the scene would have been more effective if the camera stayed with David and showed the genocide from above with David or not literally, but basically through the eyes of David, there wasn't any need to show close ups of the engineer, especially if you have a tight budget and are unable to make engineers look like they should. Than scene reminded me Exodus: Gods and Kings. In Alien films the camera existed physically, it never panned around like it would in a videogame. It does look epic and all when done right but they should have stayed true to the style of original films, otherwise it doesnt fit. Even a videogame (Isolation) understood that.   
Then there's this all cgi crap (more so in Covenant), that works against atmosphere if it looks like cgi and moves like a cgi.

The music is mostly good in Covenant when it's basically Alien rehashed, but i have problem with some of the new music that to me is not so bad on it's own but it's a bit tasteless to use music like that in an Alien film, liked the pulsating signal thingie during the backburster scene the rest of it was too basic that wouln't be out of place in a second rate tv series. Overall would have preffered something like Under the Skin. Jed Kurzel Babadook score was effective though.


The characters in Alien were believable, they weren't in prequels, simple as that.

[Jonesy1974]

I don't think anythings wrong with the visuals, both planets had an eerie feel to me and I think the music, particularly in Covenant is excellent. The characters are no more npc than Alien in truth.

I do think the pacing is an issue but familiarity also has a big impact. My kids and mates tell me films like Lights Out and Mama are terrifying but when I watch them they barely register. I feel much the same way about Covenant as I do IT, I like both films and think they are good but neither work as horror movies for me. I've just seen it all before.

You're right that there's not anything wrong with the visuals, they are mostly adequate but if you're doing an official prequel to Alien, you need to go the extra mile. I think Prometheus was easily better looking film than Covenant, but Prometheus often looked too perfect, the perfect lightning with the perfectly lit faces, for me it took away from the atmosphere. And i'm unable to forget the image of Peter Weyland, he looked ridiculous, something that could have been easily avoided by casting an actor who doesn't need prosthetics to look old.  The visuals juxtaposed with the music produced atmosphere that was more Star Trek than Alien.

Covenant luckily went for more grimy look, good enough for a random sci-fi these days but undeniably subpar compared to earlier Alien films. Due to pacing and other factors, the better moments weren't able to make a proper impact. Then there were issues that could have been simply avoided like with Prometheus, for example the scene with David wiping out the engineers. I imagine the scene would have been more effective if the camera stayed with David and showed the genocide from above with David or not literally, but basically through the eyes of David, there wasn't any need to show close ups of the engineer, especially if you have a tight budget and are unable to make engineers look like they should. Than scene reminded me Exodus: Gods and Kings. In Alien films the camera existed physically, it never panned around like it would in a videogame. It does look epic and all when done right but they should have stayed true to the style of original films, otherwise it doesnt fit. Even a videogame (Isolation) understood that.   
Then there's this all cgi crap (more so in Covenant), that works against atmosphere if it looks like cgi and moves like a cgi.

The music is mostly good in Covenant when it's basically Alien rehashed, but i have problem with some of the new music that to me is not so bad on it's own but it's a bit tasteless to use music like that in an Alien film, liked the pulsating signal thingie during the backburster scene the rest of it was too basic that wouln't be out of place in a second rate tv series. Overall would have preffered something like Under the Skin. Jed Kurzel Babadook score was effective though.


The characters in Alien were believable, they weren't in prequels, simple as that.

I cant really agree with any of that tbh. Other than some of the Prometheus music did give me a star trek vibe and some of the characters in that film didn't work for me. We are on completely differently pages so best just to move along.