The SONG OF ICE AND FIRE Thread

[The Kurgan]

She did crucified one for every child they naild to a cross just to spite and mock her.

After that she tried to keep the peace in Meereen as bloodless as possible. Most other rulers in Westeros would have just killed three masters for every victim of the harpys or would have put them to the sword entirely like Daario suggested.

If you imagin other characters in her situation, she showed incredible restrain in Meeeren.

I would even suggest there is not much she could have done better in the awful situation she found herself in.

And while sealing Xaro Xhoan Daxos and Doreah in his vault was cold as f**k, it's not like they did not had it coming.

[LastSonofKrypton]

Hell hath no fury...

.....like a woman scorned.... there's that, but I see her fury as more heritage influenced than gender influenced......though her hatred for Cersi, the sadistic pleasure she takes in watching her enemies suffer, and the loss of ones close to her didn't exactly contribute to her mental stability either.

With only one more episode to wrap things up, how do you guys think the show will end?

From a character's mindset, even if Jon Snow retreats to the North, I see Dany obsessing over the fact that there is someone out there in the realm that arguably has more rightful claim by birth to the throne than her and she will not rest till she eliminates that threat.

From a writer's mindset, stick your hand in the mystery box and who knows what you will pull out.

Calling it now, Daenarys will give her First Order Speech to the newly regenerated Unsullied and Dothraki as well as the suddenly rape and murder happy Northmen.  Jon will brood for twenty five minutes, before finally speaking up along with Tyrion, after he is done walking around the ruins of King's Landing wondering 'how could this happen?'  Varys' force ghost will follow him around, snarkily telling him I told you so.  Daenarys will set her sights on Winterfell because Sansa made some off hand comment about Ru Paul being overrated.  Bran, who for some reason has been left outside again will conveniently use his tree Cerebro and conveniently see said plan of Dany's to shred Winterfell.  Meanwhile in King's Landing Jon will give an impassioned speech to Dany, who now smiles like Cersei, and has him and Tyrion arrested for treason.  In a very quick trial, Jon and Tyrion are sentenced to death by Dragon much to the delight of everybody else.  Arya will sneak around the ruins, setting her sights on the Mad Queen because she will have forgotten about the Hound's advice.  Right before Drogon is about to burn Jon and Tyrion Bran uses tree Cerebro to warg into Drogon, burning all of the Unsullied and the Dothraki.  They don't regenerate this time because the fire destroys all of the respawn points.  Jon and Tyrion escape, Tyrion flees whilst Jon faces down with Grey Worm, who is still in murderous dick mode for some reason.  But before they can battle it out, Daanarys is trying to control Drogon, who is flying around burning all of her army until he is taken down by two scorpions that were somehow conveniently missed in the last episode because a Lannister squire covered them with some tarp.  Jon kills Grey Worm and then sets his sights on Daenarys who is trying to burn everything with a lighter.  Then Arya wearing Khal Drogo's face appears from behind her and stabs her through the heart with symbolism and the Mad Queen is dead.  Jon looks around at the destruction, and the survivors gather to kneel at his feet, referring to him as the one true King.  Jon, in typical Ned fashion doesn't want power, and he kind of walks off, taking the black again and returning to Castle Black, with Davos in tow, who warns him that he isn't much of a fighter.  As Tyrion and the other survivors stand around perplexed, Bronn suddenly appears from the shadows and says, 'Will somebody please give me a f**king castle!'

Cut to Winterfell, Sansa is in charge of the North, enlisting the seventeen people she has left, including Brienne, who has been binge watching Bridget Jones this entire time.  Arya joins them on the battlements, and snarky sister insults are shared.  Bran is still sat outside for some reason.

In the true North, Ghost and Tormund have formed a crime fighting team, and scour the lands solving crimes, promising to return one day for the Big Woman

In Storms End, Gendry is roaming the halls, kind of bored, wondering why nobody has lived in the castle since Stannis, until he finds a hidden room, a hidden room filled with mirrors.  He hears a voice, in his head and then turning he sees his uncle Stannis in one of the mirrors, who says, 'You'll always be weak until you take control.  Now you know the truth.  Avenge me.  AVENGE MEH!!!'

Cut to Castle Black, Jon is happy being able to brood, surrounded by nameless Night's Watch who were left alone for some reason by the Night King.  Then, zoom out to the distance towards the mountains, a lonely figure looks onto the world.  Slow reveal and we see the Night King, bandaged, and on crutches.  He smiles, and in Ned Starks voice he says, 'Winter is Coming.... again.' Fade to black 

[Local Trouble]

If you imagin other characters in her situation, she showed incredible restrain in Meeeren.

I imagine Jon Snow in her situation and I imagine he would have done things differently.  While I'm certain he would have executed a lot of people, I highly doubt he'd do it in as sadistic or cruel a fashion as Dany did.  I also seem to recall that Jorah and Barristan advised her against it as well.

[Biomechanoid]

I was thinking more about scorn of a continental magnitude.

Ahh, okay, that fits too.

Assuming "taking the black" is still a thing, he could always do what Maester Aemon did.

If she does obsess over him being a threat to her throne by birth right as I suggested earlier, I don't think he would be safe anywhere. But this theory is really on shaky ground since there's only two hours left to close out everyone's story. Giving it a second thought, if there is a showdown between Jon and Dany, perhaps it's more likely it will occur while he is still currently at King's Landing. There's not a lot of wiggle room for fan speculation anymore.

[The Kurgan]

If you imagin other characters in her situation, she showed incredible restrain in Meeeren.

I imagine Jon Snow in her situation and I imagine he would have done things differently.  While I'm certain he would have executed a lot of people, I highly doubt he'd do it in as sadistic or cruel a fashion as Dany did.  I also seem to recall that Jorah and Barristan advised her against it as well.

After they killed hundreds of children in a slow and excruciating way for basically no reason? Guess we don't know what he would do. As far as we know he did not object when Sansa fed Ramsey to his own dogs.  At least not on screen.

Point still stands, she did not kill for the sadistic pleasure of killing. She took an eye for an eye. 

[Local Trouble]

And did so indiscriminately.  Hizdahr zo Loraq's father opposed the crucifixion of the children, but she apparently wasn't concerned about such things.

[Biomechanoid]

Point still stands, she did not kill for the sadistic pleasure of killing. She took an eye for an eye.

You make some good points in defense of her series of executions.
...."in defense of her series of executions" (that seems like a strange comment)

Spoiler

Anyway, after Ep. 5, I guess it's a moot point now. I doubt she was tussling with an inner turmoil of grief or remorse while incinerating thousands of men, women, and children in King's Landing. And with only two hours left, it seems unlikely they will return her to the Dany of incredible restraint you are accustomed to. So likely 'murdering wackadoo psycho' will forever be her legacy.

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[The Kurgan]

And did so indiscriminately.  Hizdahr zo Loraq's father opposed the crucifixion of the children, but she apparently wasn't concerned about such things.

According to Hizdahr zo Loraq.

No way to find out what every master supported or opposed. All that is known is that the majority did support dead children and that the majority had no problem that slaves get treated like cattle in the city. So if you let Hizdahr's argument fly you are not allowed to punish anyone of them.

Robb hanged all the men-at-arms that helped Karstark kill the Lannister boys, not concerning himself if they actually layed finger on somebody or if they wanted to help or had any choice in that matter. 

So i doubt he would let Hizdahr's argument fly. And this is the son of Ned "death-before-dishonor" Stark.

Point still stands, she did not kill for the sadistic pleasure of killing. She took an eye for an eye.

You make some good points in defense of her series of executions.
...."in defense of her series of executions" (that seems like a strange comment)

Spoiler

Anyway, after Ep. 5, I guess it's a moot point now. I doubt she was tussling with an inner turmoil of grief or remorse while incinerating thousands of men, women, and children in King's Landing. And with only two hours left, it seems unlikely they will return her to the Dany of incredible restraint you are accustomed to. So likely 'murdering wackadoo psycho' will forever be her legacy.

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Spoiler

I would absolutely have no problem with that if they just let it have a little more build up or gave her an believable push over the edge in her snapping moment. But i guess they don't wanted to spoil the big twist

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[Biomechanoid]

Spoiler

I would absolutely have no problem with that if they just let it have a little more build up or gave her an believable push over the edge in her snapping moment. But i guess they don't wanted to spoil the big twist

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Spoiler

Certainly a reasonable request to expect a little more build up, especially considering we now know HBO offered them more viewing time to flesh out the final season, yet the rejected that offer.

With the signs they planted regarding Dany throughout the series, were you expecting, or at least suspecting, she would become the next murdering mad Targaryen?

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[SiL]

Spoiler

Most people saw that coming.

They were still disappointed with how it ended up getting there, though.

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[The Kurgan]

Spoiler

I would absolutely have no problem with that if they just let it have a little more build up or gave her an believable push over the edge in her snapping moment. But i guess they don't wanted to spoil the big twist

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Spoiler

Certainly a reasonable request to expect a little more build up, especially considering we now know HBO offered them more viewing time to flesh out the final season, yet the rejected that offer.

With the signs they planted regarding Dany throughout the series, were you expecting, or at least suspecting, she would become the next murdering mad Targaryen?

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Sure.

Spoiler

There were some seeds planted here and there. She always was unforgiving,resolute and brutal in what she saw as justice and with Barristan warning her that her father "gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved, and each time, it made him feel powerful and right, until the very end." there was foreshadowing for her to go down the same path as Aerys.
And her whole the throne is mine by birthright\destiny mindset could easily led to disaster.

But like Voodoo said somewhere above, she was at step A and the show jumped her to D while skipping B and C. The seeds never flowered so to say. Foreshadowing is not character development.

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[Biomechanoid]

Sure.

Spoiler

There were some seeds planted here and there. She always was unforgiving,resolute and brutal in what she saw as justice and with Barristan warning her that her father "gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved, and each time, it made him feel powerful and right, until the very end." there was foreshadowing for her to go down the same path as Aerys.

But like Voodoo said somewhere above, she was at step A and the show jumped her to D while skipping B and C. The seeds never flowered so to say. Foreshadowing is not character development.

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Spoiler

Understandable. I agree with you a progression is missing...to a certain degree. The analogy you mention of jumping from step A to step D, I see as not an entirely accurate assessment.

Step A implies the first step. Step D implies the last step. The fact that there were seeds planted throughout the series, it's not possible they went from step A, or the first step, since we both have acknowledged we have been expecting to see her as the next mad Targaryen.

But I fully agree with your earlier response "I would absolutely have no problem with that if they just let it have a little more build up." That to me is a better assessment.

So to recap....
What you were expecting: is a murdering mad Targaryen with a little more build up.
What you got: is a murdering mad Targaryen with less build up.

A few, including me, see a narrow gap between those two comments, but I recognize quite a few see a wide gap between those two comments.

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[LastSonofKrypton]

Sure.

Spoiler

There were some seeds planted here and there. She always was unforgiving,resolute and brutal in what she saw as justice and with Barristan warning her that her father "gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved, and each time, it made him feel powerful and right, until the very end." there was foreshadowing for her to go down the same path as Aerys.

But like Voodoo said somewhere above, she was at step A and the show jumped her to D while skipping B and C. The seeds never flowered so to say. Foreshadowing is not character development.

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Spoiler

Understandable. I agree with you a progression is missing...to a certain degree. The analogy you mention of jumping from step A to step D, I see as not an entirely accurate assessment.

Step A implies the first step. Step D implies the last step. The fact that there were seeds planted throughout the series, it's not possible they went from step A, or the first step, since we both have acknowledged we have been expecting to see her as the next mad Targaryen.

But I fully agree with your earlier response "I would absolutely have no problem with that if they just let it have a little more build up." That to me is a better assessment.

So to recap....
What you were expecting: is a murdering mad Targaryen with a little more build up.
What you got: is a murdering mad Targaryen with less build up.

A few, including me, see a narrow gap between those two comments, but I recognize quite a few see a wide gap between those two comments.

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Spoiler

What bothers me is that she snaps after she has already won.  The city has surrendered, Cersei's armies have abandoned her.  Dany's snap like so many other things this season was done for shock value.  In that split second when she finally has what she has wanted for eight seasons she suddenly just flips?  It's ridiculous.  At the very least give her a reason.

Say for instance, Missandei is still alive and Cersei executes her as a final 'f**k you' in defeat, and Dany flips completely, or instead of Euron killing Rhaegal, a remaining scorpion hits him after the bells ring.  If you're going to rush her fall into madness, at least have an inciting incident.  It was set up to look like she was about to decimate the Red Keep, which I could live with, she murders Cersei, Qyburn and the Mountain and let's face it, they all deserve it.  But to have a 'twist' for the sake of it, and just have her suddenly and indiscriminately murder civilians is cheap and unforgiveable.

The Mad Queen plot could have been fantastic, if done over three or four seasons, with the death of her friends, her dragons, betrayals, her frustration at not being on the throne, and the fact that she is a Targaryen, her fall from grace could have been beuatiful in a morbid, heartbreaking sort of way.  But it wasn't, it was kind of hinted at and then just spattered onto the screen

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[Biomechanoid]

Spoiler

The Mad Queen plot could have been fantastic, if done over three or four seasons, with the death of her friends, her dragons, betrayals, her frustration at not being on the throne, and the fact that she is a Targaryen, her fall from grace could have been beuatiful in a morbid, heartbreaking sort of way.

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Heck, I would have been satisfied if they fleshed out the above in the final season using the additional viewing time HBO offered them, yet they rejected that offer.

[The Kurgan]

In the end it was just not believable for me how and why it happened.

Spoiler

Non of the seeds actually grew into what she did. She did not (believable) burn people, to take what she saw as her birthright and sacrificed too much for that delusion, she did not (believable) dish out what she thought was justice and deserved, deluding herself cruelties against people opposing her are done out of justice like her dad.

What she did was completely unnecessary and did not serve any purpose. And while i could buy a character like her's has been depicted, ending up with a burned city full of innocents and mad and deluded like Aerys. I can't buy it the way it lead up to it in the show.

Especially not after we had at least two moments of kindness, self sacrifice and altruism for every blood and fire rambeling or cruel punishment. Cruel punishments and kill them all rambelings not even beeing remotely unique to her character in the show.

On top of that, she feared nothing more than to become like her father. And she always was aware of the danger of exactly that happening.

GoT was always so good when characters felt like they made choices that brought them where they got(Ned, Robb, Theon). Sometime the wrong ones, that brought them to their doom. But always believable ones.

When characters feel like they are written into situations, just to have them there(Stannis,basically everyone in the Dorne fiasco, Littelfinger now Dany) it sucks.



TLDR: For me, what she did was not a choice, she would have believable done in that situation. And excusing that with a sudden case of Tagaryen madness, is just lazy. If there even is such a thing.

We have lots of characters at least as mad or cruel as Aerys, none of them Targaryen. May just be superstition like Bastards or children of traitors beeing naturally traitorous.

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