The SONG OF ICE AND FIRE Thread

Started by Shasvre, Apr 19, 2011, 10:36:01 PM

Author
The SONG OF ICE AND FIRE Thread (Read 449,718 times)

Biomechanoid

Spoiler
Ahh, okay, thanks for clarification. For a moment I thought you and I were on the same page when you said you had absolutely no problem with her becoming a murdering mad Targaryn if they just let it have a little more build up. It now sounds like your dismay is far beyond just a little more build up. So, in lieu of your clarification, I can now only say, never mind.
[close]

Voodoo Magic

Seeds. This common analogy seeds. The problem is these seeds are so inconsequential that millions of viewers would not have batted an eyelash if Daenerys liberated the kingdoms. The End.

These seeds were never watered. These seeds never grew. And suddenly we're smacked with a 350 foot Redwood tree in episode 5 with no sign of watering or earned growth, and the only option is to look back and find as many seeds as we can, even turn things originally perceived as non-seeds into seeds to try to legitimize this disservice D&D did to the show and the fans.

It's all very frustrating.

LastSonofKrypton

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 16, 2019, 10:59:22 AM
Seeds. This common analogy seeds. The problem is these seeds are so inconsequential that millions of viewers would not have batted an eyelash if Daenerys liberated the kingdoms. The End.

These seeds were never watered. These seeds never grew. And suddenly we're smacked with a 350 foot Redwood tree in episode 5 with no sign of watering or earned growth, and the only option is to look back and find as many seeds as we can, even turn things originally perceived as non-seeds into seeds to try to legitimize this disservice D&D did to the show and the fans.

It's all very frustrating.

You don't need seeds when you have shock and spectacle!!! You don't need consistent writing when you have twists and turns!!!  You don't need satisfying character arcs when you subvert expectations!!!! 

Season 8 was written solely for Youtube reaction channels!  The Burlington Bar is the new target audience.  OMG is the new five star rating!

Biomechanoid

Biomechanoid

#4518
Spoiler
Sil's comment regarding Dany becoming a murdering mad Targaryen: "Most people saw that coming."

A good point on Sil's part. Those inconsequential seeds were ample enough to guide millions of viewers to realize she is to become a murdering mad Targaryen.

So unless the final episode spins a complete 180 on Dany's behavior, those seeds were indeed consequential, and to reference Kurgan's analogy of whether those seeds flowered, it guided them to what actually became true.....I would call that a flower.
[close]

Voodoo Magic

Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 11:14:47 AM

You don't need seeds when you have shock and spectacle!!! You don't need consistent writing when you have twists and turns!!!  You don't need satisfying character arcs when you subvert expectations!!!! 

Season 8 was written solely for Youtube reaction channels!  The Burlington Bar is the new target audience.  OMG is the new five star rating!

So this.^^^^^^  OMG :laugh:

It's The Last Jedi all over again, but worse.

LastSonofKrypton

Quote from: Biomechanoid on May 16, 2019, 11:25:46 AM
Sil's comment regarding Dany becoming a murdering mad Targaryen: "Most people saw that coming."

A good point on Sil's part. Those inconsequential seeds were ample enough to guide millions of viewers to realize she is to become a murdering mad Targaryen.

So unless the final episode spins a complete 180 on Dany's behavior, those seeds were indeed consequential, and to reference Kurgan's analogy of whether those seeds flowered, it guided them to what actually became true.....I would call that a flower.

Spoiler
But its an artificial flower.  Her sudden flip is an unjustified action done solely to further plot.  It isn't a consequence of her story, of her choices but a decision of the writers to shock the audience.  These seeds might have been there, but barely, Dany is flawed, she has made mistakes, she has been ruthless, but she is a leader and leaders have to be ruthless at times to maintain their control.  She executed her enemies, but the majority of these executions were retaliatory.  For six seasons she was built to be a champion of the people, the breaker of chains.  The potential to have her slowly fall from grace gradually, perhaps beginning with the death of Barristan Selmy, Jorah's betrayal, the masters reneging on Tyrion's deal, the loss of the Dornish, the Ironborn and the Tyrells.  After her attack on the Lannister Army, she could have simply burned all of the survivors alive, without offering them the option to bend the knee.  This would be the first real indication of her descent, that for the first time she doesn't offer mercy because her enemies don't offer any to her. 

But Dany is still mostly intact, she meets Jon, and eventually agrees to help him fight the Night King.  She loses Viserion beyond the wall, her child, and another support breaks in her mind, but she strives on because its the right thing to do, and now she has a reason to want to kill the night king.
At the battle of Winterfell, her growing madness could be reflected as she becomes reckless in her pursuit of the Night King for revenge, she acts irresponsibly and perhaps loses another dragon, or contributes to the death of Jorah, after which she blames herself.  If you couple this with the devestation to her troops during the battle, and the cost of victory, she continues to steadily decline.  After the battle, she begins to feel more and more isolated, the praise going to Jon Snow and Arya for the death of the Night King, whilst her circle has grown smaller.  She slowly begins to withdraw.  But Jon assures her that once they have rested, they will march on King's Landing and remove Cersei.  Dany grows more impatient, and if they have to go the silly may of Euron nuking Rhaegal, and the murder of Missandei, this only adds to her madness.  She wants to attack immediately, and becomes more and more frustrated.  Varys is aware of this, especially ever since Winterfell, he talks to Tyrion about her murder of captured Lannister soldiers, her recklessness at Winterfell which led to Jorah's death, her wish to quickly go after Cersei which cost Rhaegal and Missandei their lives.  Varys is concerned because he cares about Dany, he believed in her at one point, but he has served enough rulers to know when they are beginning to become corrupted.  Tyrion has concern, but he still believes in her.  Varys doesn't try to poison her, he tries to reason with her, but she doesn't want to hear it.  Varys then tells her that he can no longer be a part of her quest, and where Missandei once said Dany would give her a boat and wish her good luck if she asked to leave, Varys is taken and thrown into a cell.

This whole time, Jon has kept the knowledge of his true parentage to himself, but he has become more distant with Dany, refusing intimacy, and this plays into her paranoia.  She feels rejected, the man she loves is pushing her away and it only gets worse.  As the armies march on Kings Landing, Dany doesn't want to wait, and attacks, destroying the fleet, and then the scorpions on the walls.  She then heads for the Red Keep, destroying it completely, but unbeknownst to her, Wildfire has been placed all over the city by Qyburn at Cersei's request.  She destroys the Red Keep but inadvertantly sets off the wildfire, and the results are devestating, destroying most of the city, especially where most of the civilians are hiding behind the walls of the Red Keep.  By the time Jon and the others arrive, they see nothing but devestation.  Realising what she has done, Dany breaks completely

This should have been done over three full seasons, Dany's descent and the corruption of her spirit could have paralleled the redemption of Jamie
[close]

The Kurgan

The Kurgan

#4521
Quote from: Biomechanoid on May 16, 2019, 11:25:46 AM
Spoiler
Sil's comment regarding Dany becoming a murdering mad Targaryen: "Most people saw that coming."

A good point on Sil's part. Those inconsequential seeds were ample enough to guide millions of viewers to realize she is to become a murdering mad Targaryen.

So unless the final episode spins a complete 180 on Dany's behavior, those seeds were indeed consequential, and to reference Kurgan's analogy of whether those seeds flowered, it guided them to what actually became true.....I would call that a flower.
[close]

The seeds made people assume they will possibly get flowers from it if they get watered, as is to be expected. Instead the flower fell from the sky before they could do anything with the seeds. They have a flower now. Just has nothing to do with the seeds people assumed it will possibly grow from. They expected a flower and got one. The way they got it, does not make sense however. And it does not make for a believable\good story, it has an unexpected twist though :P.

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 16, 2019, 11:40:48 AM
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 11:14:47 AM

You don't need seeds when you have shock and spectacle!!! You don't need consistent writing when you have twists and turns!!!  You don't need satisfying character arcs when you subvert expectations!!!! 

Season 8 was written solely for Youtube reaction channels!  The Burlington Bar is the new target audience.  OMG is the new five star rating!

So this.^^^^^^  OMG :laugh:

It's The Last Jedi all over again, but worse.


Das it mane. Das it.

Rudiger

Rudiger

#4522
The problem with this season is that there's just too much story to tell in only 8 episodes.

That said, and given where the story is heading now, maybe they should have killed off a lot of the main characters early doors in a battle with the white walkers, which would link back directly to Cersai's betrayal / refusal to send troops North.

That might have better justified the character shifts we're seeing now, which all feel too rushed.

Biomechanoid

Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 12:00:06 PM
These seeds might have been there, but barely.....

If there's any truth to Sil's comment, "Most people saw that coming," then no, there's no barely factor to it. Those seeds guided millions of viewers to believe Dany was to become a murdering mad Targaryen. And those seeds guided them to what actually became true. There's simply no way around that. Unless you believe there was some other indicators that guided viewers to what they believed and eventually became true. I have no idea what that could be....without calling it a seed, but I'm open for suggestions.

Quote from: The Kurgan on May 16, 2019, 12:03:51 PM
Instead the flower fell from the sky before they could do anything with the seeds. They have a flower now.

That's not what happened at all. Millions of viewers already believed Dany was to become a murdering mad Targaryen before episode 5 even existed. Unless you're suggesting Sil is incorrect when he said most people saw that coming.

Quote from: The Kurgan on May 16, 2019, 12:03:51 PM
Just has nothing to do with the seeds people assumed it will possibly grow from.

Fair enough, then I ask you the same question I asked Krypton. Then what indicators guided viewers to Sil's point "Most people saw that coming"? Something lead those most people to believe that was coming. I don't know what that would be....without calling it a seed.

SiL

SiL

#4524
Could you please not leave out the entire second half of my post to try to make it look like I'm backing you up, Biomechanoid?

More accurately to what I said -- and to use your seed analogy -- it's like showing someone buying tomato seeds to plant, and later they show up with store-bought tomatoes because it was taking too long to grow their own. That's the analogy here.

The seeds that were planted did not bare the fruit that was presented, even if it ended up being the same type of fruit.

The Kurgan

The Kurgan

#4525
Quote from: SiL on May 16, 2019, 12:39:52 PM
The seeds that were planted did not bare the fruit that was presented, even if it ended up being the same type of fruit.

^

LastSonofKrypton

Quote from: Biomechanoid on May 16, 2019, 12:36:19 PM
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 12:00:06 PM
These seeds might have been there, but barely.....

If there's any truth to Sil's comment, "Most people saw that coming," then no, there's no barely factor to it. Those seeds guided millions of viewers to believe Dany was to become a murdering mad Targaryen. And those seeds guided them to what actually became true. There's simply no way around that. Unless you believe there was some other indicators that guided viewers to what they believed and eventually became true. I have no idea what that could be....without calling it a seed, but I'm open for suggestions.

Quote from: The Kurgan on May 16, 2019, 12:03:51 PM
Instead the flower fell from the sky before they could do anything with the seeds. They have a flower now.

That's not what happened at all. Millions of viewers already believed Dany was to become a murdering mad Targaryen before episode 5 even existed. Unless you're suggesting Sil is incorrect when he said most people saw that coming.

Quote from: The Kurgan on May 16, 2019, 12:03:51 PM
Just has nothing to do with the seeds people assumed it will possibly grow from.

Fair enough, then I ask you the same question I asked Krypton. Then what indicators guided viewers to Sil's point "Most people saw that coming"? Something lead those most people to believe that was coming. I don't know what that would be....without calling it a seed.

Most people didn't see it coming, most people assumed it would happen based on who her father was.  I always believed that Dany's sense of entitlement would be her downfall, that she would become corrupted by her pursuit of the throne, but not to the extent where

Spoiler
she literally just decides on the spot to genocide an entire city after its occupants surrendered because somebody spoke about her not being like her father three seasons ago
[close]

I thought she would slowly degrade as a force for good, weighed down by betrayal, loss and frustration, until her actions became reckless and it inadvertently led to some horrific incident

Biomechanoid

Quote from: SiL on May 16, 2019, 12:39:52 PM
Could you please not leave out the entire second half of my post to try to make it look like I'm backing you up, Biomechanoid?

Despite what you believe, there was no subterfuge to present you as a backer, Sil. Members partial quote here all the time. Other members have partially quoted you at times. But I get it, I'm not exactly your favorite. Your first sentence was relevant to my point. Your second sentence was not.

Quote from: SiL on May 16, 2019, 12:39:52 PM
The seeds that were planted did not bare the fruit that was presented, even if it ended up being the same type of fruit.

Yes, Kurgan has already made that analogy, or at least similar. So I will ask you also.....and to partially quote you again, "people saw that coming," what indicators led them to believe Dany becoming a murdering mad Targaryen was coming if it wasn't an in film story seed?

SiL

SiL

#4528
Quote from: Biomechanoid on May 16, 2019, 01:00:09 PM
Other members have partially quoted you at times. But I get it, I'm not exactly your favorite. Your first sentence was relevant to my point. Your second sentence was not.
When people partially quote me in a way that skews the context of what I said, I say something (assuming I've read it). Like you said, the first half of what I said was relevant while the second wasn't -- but the two halves didn't exist independently, they were a coherent thought. Taking out half of it and focusing on the first half is disingenuous to what I was saying.

Quotewhat indicators led them to believe Dany becoming a murdering mad Targaryen was coming if it wasn't an in film story seed?
I didn't say they weren't in-film story seeds, so I don't understand why you're posing this question to me.

JokersWarPig

JokersWarPig

#4529
Quotewhat indicators led them to believe Dany becoming a murdering mad Targaryen was coming if it wasn't an in film story seed? 

The first thing that comes to mind is killing Sam's brother and father. Even if it was to send a message it was definitely heavy handed, and probably supposed to be a parallel to her father having burned Rickard and Brandon Stark.

Her going full purge mode on the city contradicts other huge aspects of her character.

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