Alien Covenant: Chestbursters and Queen Alien

Started by City Hunter Yautja, Jul 25, 2021, 09:38:14 AM

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Alien Covenant: Chestbursters and Queen Alien (Read 5,688 times)

Nightmare Asylum

Covenant ends with David going back to the drawing board to further "perfect" his organism. The design of the Aliens in Covenant reflect their unfinished state – they are purely biological, with none of the mechanical design elements of the original bio-mechanical incarnation from the original Alien. Seeing as Covenant shows David's creation to be unfinished, it is safe to say that the Queen is yet to come, and will be created at some point prior to Alien.

[cancerblack]

Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 25, 2021, 08:59:50 PM
Quote from: Trash Queen on Jul 25, 2021, 08:55:29 PM
Just because the Queen does not exist yet by the time of Alien Covenant does not mean it never will.

True, but it messes with the more easy to understand lifecycle, an egglayer who is the salvation of the species, and that any drone can become one.

I suppose though, if you go back to black goo there is infinite ways this "Perfect Lifeform" can come to be.

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding the film. Between his arrival on the planet and the arrival of the Covenant crew, David creates the first batch of eggs after a decade of Frankenstein-like experimentation.

There were no Aliens at all up til this point. At this stage there is no Queen at all yet either, and the Alien is still "unfinished" (lacking the biomechanical element).

The Advent short heavily implies that, similar to his experiments with Shaw, he will use Daniels reproductive organs (the difference being, Daniels is fertile). This would presumably result in the first Queen.

If the problem you're having is that various media (and in particular AvP) depicts Queens (and Aliens full stop, for that matter) at times well before Covenant occurs, you'll need to unpick those strands into separate, non-linked IPs because unless you're Xenomrph, they do not and will never work together narratively, and were not intended to by Scott, et al. 

Immortan Jonesy

Immortan Jonesy

#17
This should work too. ;D

Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jul 25, 2021, 08:58:52 PM
The only way I think it would really work now for David to not be the direct creator of the Aliens (while still maintaining continuity) would be for him to realize that he is part of some cycle that repeats over and over again through history, a la the situation in Raised by Wolves, and for him to have a profoundly negative reaction to such a revelation...

I think it's a perfect ending for his arc: a dark genius with god-compex and master of manipulation.

Sir Peter Weyland, a tech mogul who envisioned achieving immortality one day, created a synthetic immortal man, something that cannot be achieved biologically. Humanity alienates Victor Frankenstein's creation as an abomination against nature. According to Walter, David disturbed people for being too human, too idiosyncratic and always thinking for himself.

He is Weyland'son, but in a way God's Lucifer / Frankenstein's monster. Covenant is like a sequel in wich the monster becomes a creator by itself. His alienation from mankind has caused him to become a monster; unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality; and so his creation as well: a trully alien entity designed to destroy humans in their roots; their sexual reproduction.

Now, if David discovers that he was being a key entity in the cyclical resurrection of a terror as old as the Engineers, if not even older, I would pay to see his reaction!  ;D Or put another way; I trust Fassbender's acting skills. I bet it would be like a Shakespearean tragedy.  :laugh:

City Hunter Yautja

Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jul 25, 2021, 10:17:24 PM
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 25, 2021, 08:59:50 PM
Quote from: Trash Queen on Jul 25, 2021, 08:55:29 PM
Just because the Queen does not exist yet by the time of Alien Covenant does not mean it never will.

True, but it messes with the more easy to understand lifecycle, an egglayer who is the salvation of the species, and that any drone can become one.

I suppose though, if you go back to black goo there is infinite ways this "Perfect Lifeform" can come to be.

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding the film. Between his arrival on the planet and the arrival of the Covenant crew, David creates the first batch of eggs after a decade of Frankenstein-like experimentation.

There were no Aliens at all up til this point. At this stage there is no Queen at all yet either, and the Alien is still "unfinished" (lacking the biomechanical element).

The Advent short heavily implies that, similar to his experiments with Shaw, he will use Daniels reproductive organs (the difference being, Daniels is fertile). This would presumably result in the first Queen.

If the problem you're having is that various media (and in particular AvP) depicts Queens (and Aliens full stop, for that matter) at times well before Covenant occurs, you'll need to unpick those strands into separate, non-linked IPs because unless you're Xenomrph, they do not and will never work together narratively, and were not intended to by Scott, et al.

If I misunderstand, some of the blame is on whoever cut Advent and other parts out of the film to make those points clearer.

My point is Aliens went out of its way to explain the eggs come from a Queen. I understand Scott intended something else, but he did not return to the franchise till much later, when the Queen mythos was added. My issue wouldn't be with David creating some kind of Protomorph that becomes the Queen and lays eggs, my issue is he is made to be the one who created the eggs.

Immortan Jonesy

Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jul 25, 2021, 10:17:24 PM
The Advent short heavily implies that, similar to his experiments with Shaw, he will use Daniels reproductive organs (the difference being, Daniels is fertile). This would presumably result in the first Queen.

If that even happens, I hope the design is somewhat different from Cameron's queen.

[cancerblack]

Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 25, 2021, 10:28:43 PM
If I misunderstand, some of the blame is on whoever cut Advent and other parts out of the film to make those points clearer.

Can't recall if it was actually cut or just always intended as a supplemental piece, but yes, it's less than perfectly clear in Covenant.

QuoteMy point is Aliens went out of its way to explain the eggs come from a Queen.

Eggs that look really rather different, that create Aliens who look quite different too.

QuoteI understand Scott intended something else, but he did not return to the franchise till much later, when the Queen mythos was added.

I fail to see how that's relevant.

QuoteMy issue wouldn't be with David creating some kind of Protomorph that becomes the Queen and lays eggs, my issue is he is made to be the one who created the eggs.

So the biggest problem, for you, is the idea of David fabricating the very first batch of eggs from multiple different creatures that themselves have undergone multiple iterations of refinement, as a vector for his near-perfected form of the pathogen, rather than making a creature that lays the eggs for him?

That's an odd gripe bruh but ok.

City Hunter Yautja

Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jul 25, 2021, 10:40:51 PM
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 25, 2021, 10:28:43 PM
If I misunderstand, some of the blame is on whoever cut Advent and other parts out of the film to make those points clearer.

Can't recall if it was actually cut or just always intended as a supplemental piece, but yes, it's less than perfectly clear in Covenant.

QuoteMy point is Aliens went out of its way to explain the eggs come from a Queen.

Eggs that look really rather different, that create Aliens who look quite different too.

QuoteI understand Scott intended something else, but he did not return to the franchise till much later, when the Queen mythos was added.

I fail to see how that's relevant.

QuoteMy issue wouldn't be with David creating some kind of Protomorph that becomes the Queen and lays eggs, my issue is he is made to be the one who created the eggs.

So the biggest problem, for you, is the idea of David fabricating the very first batch of eggs from multiple different creatures that themselves have undergone multiple iterations of refinement, as a vector for his near-perfected form of the pathogen, rather than making a creature that lays the eggs for him?

That's an odd gripe bruh but ok.

Its relevant that Scott should have at least honored some of the Queen continuity.

Odd is your view, I say its a legitament critique. I want the two franchises to be in harmony, to do that Scott and other directors have to keep certain things consistent. 

[cancerblack]

The thing is, a director like Scott, at this point in his career, is going to basically come in and do whatever the f**k he likes, with zero regard for franchises, canon, or other marketing terms (which is explicitly what these ideas are) that might limit his creativity. And he's done it twice, for better or worse.

This is literally a chicken/egg scenario, where Scotts answer is that the egg, in fact, came before the chicken, since it was made in a lab. David made some eggs, and he'll eventually make a hen that can self-perpetuate the eggs.

You don't have to like it, but that's how it is, at this point in time. On the other hand, you could choose to ignore Covenant until something in the future retcons its retcon.

Immortan Jonesy

Scott is remarkable good in retcon his own retcons.  :laugh:

City Hunter Yautja

City Hunter Yautja

#24
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jul 25, 2021, 10:54:28 PM
The thing is, a director like Scott, at this point in his career, is going to basically come in and do whatever the f**k he likes, with zero regard for franchises, canon, or other marketing terms (which is explicitly what these ideas are) that might limit his creativity. And he's done it twice, for better or worse.

This is literally a chicken/egg scenario, where Scotts answer is that the egg, in fact, came before the chicken, since it was made in a lab. David made some eggs, and he'll eventually make a hen that can self-perpetuate the eggs.

You don't have to like it, but that's how it is, at this point in time. On the other hand, you could choose to ignore Covenant until something in the future retcons its retcon.

Chicken or the Egg indeed. Except this chicken has a heck of a bite. :D

Your right about Scott, he seems more interested in beautiful cinematography than if its consistent with canon or the franchise as a whole. In all honestly I prefer Scott's style, so I get it.

I'd prefer not to ignore Covenant, I love the film. I think what you laid out as the point and that Trash Queen mentioned about David creating a queen will work. The truth is David is not the sole creator, the black goo came from Engineers; they still are the gods with David being Prometheus or perhaps Thanatos, and the Xenomorph being Cerebrus.


[cancerblack]

As Jonesy loves pointing out, it's also entirely possible that the goo is older than even the Engineers, which is where you get into the really juicy fan wank headcanon about Engies and SJ being separate species, or the goo being an inert form of a Lovecraftian terror from outside time that keeps tricking lesser creatures into resurrecting it.

judge death

Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jul 25, 2021, 08:58:52 PM
The only way I think it would really work now for David to not be the direct creator of the Aliens (while still maintaining continuity) would be for him to realize that he is part of some cycle that repeats over and over again through history, a la the situation in Raised by Wolves, and for him to have a profoundly negative reaction to such a revelation – at this point, David and the Aliens are so intrinsically intertwined that any film that treats the prequels as canon either has to wholeheartedly maintain David in the role of direct creator, or subvert it in service of David's story. To skirt around it in order to offend/disappoint the least amount of people would be a disservice.
I would so love this and how David would react to it :D

City Hunter Yautja

Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jul 25, 2021, 11:11:14 PM
As Jonesy loves pointing out, it's also entirely possible that the goo is older than even the Engineers, which is where you get into the really juicy fan wank headcanon about Engies and SJ being separate species, or the goo being an inert form of a Lovecraftian terror from outside time that keeps tricking lesser creatures into resurrecting it.

Or it could just be the Darwinian primordial ooze.

[cancerblack]

Could be, but I think that one's supposed to be a different flavour of this biological nanotech.

City Hunter Yautja

Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jul 25, 2021, 11:42:29 PM
Could be, but I think that one's supposed to be a different flavour of this biological nanotech.

It would be Scott slapping Weyland in the face if the black goo is Darwain's ooze and the quest for a creator is a fool's errand. It would be poetic.

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