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Films/TV => Alien Prequel Series: Prometheus & Alien Covenant => Topic started by: Inverse Effect on Apr 06, 2021, 07:04:02 AM

Title: Perfect organism?
Post by: Inverse Effect on Apr 06, 2021, 07:04:02 AM
I re-watched Covenant and noticed something. David calls the Creature "Perfect organism" Okay, and the only other character in the film series to call it that was Ash from Alien i believe. So? is there supposed to be some unexplained over arching plot reasoning behind this?
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: SM on Apr 06, 2021, 08:53:15 AM
No.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 06, 2021, 10:43:23 AM
Could be just a wink, nothing more.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: David Weyland on Apr 06, 2021, 04:31:46 PM
I get the feeling part of the story arc plan of the prequels back into Alien was to tie David to Ash.

Makes perfect sense & I love it but unfortunately the prequel haters have probably scuppered that chance of finding out anytime soon

Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: TNF on Apr 06, 2021, 04:35:22 PM
It is interesting when considering the disparate personalities of Ash and David, especially since David created it and Ash admires it.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: David Weyland on Apr 06, 2021, 06:25:55 PM
IMO my gut feeling was David would come to be responsible for the rerouting of the Nostromo & the switch of the science officer with an 'infected' Ash or by David uploading his personality into Ash (Similar manner & accent) as much as I believe that's what happened to Walter-Rather than humans working in Weyland Yutani pulling the strings. This is to me a scarier concept than simply some greedy corporate company
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: BlueMarsalis79 on Apr 06, 2021, 07:22:30 PM
It's trite.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: David Weyland on Apr 06, 2021, 10:00:05 PM
Yea but it's a prequel and dis is Hollywood baby  🤩🤢
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 07, 2021, 01:03:26 AM
I dunno. It's as if the Ridley Scott prequels told us "We're going to be the Aliens that we have been looking for, since we have always been humans, even before Earth itself. The future is the biomechanical!"

Meanwhile, in another Scott production called Raised by Wolves they tell us something like "What if the aliens we are looking for are AI?".  :laugh:

I want a conclusion, but I don't want David to be responsible for everything.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: Huggs on Apr 07, 2021, 01:03:43 AM
I just assumed it was a nod to the other film. Ridley sometimes has moments in his movies that are nods to other films he's made or films he likes.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: BlueMarsalis79 on Apr 07, 2021, 01:19:10 AM
Totally agree Immortan Jonesy.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 08, 2021, 06:44:13 AM
To David it is the perfect organism, because it can wipe out the human race in a very terrifying way. David resents humans, you see his face when Weyland says he doesn't have a soul. After Weyland dies, David is "free" and he seeks a new family, which are the Xenomorphs. They don't see him as a threat and he wishes to unleash him on all those who have a soul.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: The Necronoir on Jul 08, 2021, 03:26:26 PM
If we assume that David sees the same qualities in it that Ash later does, I don't think it's the simple fact that it can "wipe out the human race in a terrifying way". There are any number of simpler things, like chemical or nuclear weapons that could do that just as effectively, and probably more efficiently.

As Ash says, what he admires is the fact that it doesn't suffer from "conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality", which are traits that he despises in humanity (because of their delusional status) and perhaps resents for them foisting on himself, as a synthetic. With David there may also be the sense that, as his creations, they are inherently more perfect than anything a flawed humanity could hope to create. The irony there is that it reveals his own imperfection, and perhaps deep-seated insecurity and self-loathing as a result.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 08, 2021, 04:28:49 PM
Well you see to me David is a sadist, so using a nuclear option or the Black Goo as he did on the Engineers isn't good enough. He wants to see mankind suffer, he resents that humankind has "a soul."

I also think by the end of Alien: Covenant he has not intent to wipe out all humans, that he has learned his children, the Xenos, need hosts and if they are to survive, hosts must keep coming. I interpreted that Walter was part of a plan to get Colonists to David so he could continue to sowen his "perfect lifeform."
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: Salt The Fries on Jul 09, 2021, 06:17:56 PM
I remember Ridley Scott mentioning something along the lines that Covenant's sequel could touch upon how Weyland Yutani formed its programming for androids. So in theory, whatever David said might have laid the foundation for the neural network used by Ash, but it's not been canonically established yet. It might just be musings of Riddles' head-canon.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: [cancerblack] on Jul 15, 2021, 08:29:56 PM
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 08, 2021, 04:28:49 PM
He wants to see mankind suffer

He's been listening to too much Mayhem.

Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: PsyKore on Aug 15, 2021, 03:31:56 AM
For what it's worth, Bishop seemed to be captivated by the creature too. I'm aware it was to play on the "villain android" thing from the first film, but it's still interesting.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: [cancerblack] on Aug 15, 2021, 08:46:45 PM
I retain an old bit of, essentially un-used stuff from early in Prommy's development that suggests the biomechanics of Engineer tech (and presumably by extension, the Alien) are only dark and morbid to inferior human eyes, and that droids can see their full, multi-dimensional beauty.

Works well retroactively with the Bishop stuff.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Aug 16, 2021, 09:14:16 AM
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Aug 15, 2021, 08:46:45 PM
I retain an old bit of, essentially un-used stuff from early in Prommy's development that suggests the biomechanics of Engineer tech (and presumably by extension, the Alien) are only dark and morbid to inferior human eyes, and that droids can see their full, multi-dimensional beauty.

Works well retroactively with the Bishop stuff.

If I'm remembering our most recent interview right, Alex White also believes there's something about the Alien's that only synthetics can see and appreciate too.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 17, 2021, 03:05:22 AM
In Jon Spaihts mind, Engineers can see more dimensions than we can.

(https://i.ibb.co/YQ8mfYS/engineering-prometheus-021.jpg)

IIRC, in his definitive script David could open doors inside the dome since he could see traces that human eyes could not see.

Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: marrerom on Aug 17, 2021, 05:51:16 PM
Quote from: PsyKore on Aug 15, 2021, 03:31:56 AM
For what it's worth, Bishop seemed to be captivated by the creature too. I'm aware it was to play on the "villain android" thing from the first film, but it's still interesting.

True. I think that there is an underlying theme in these films that A.I. views the Alien without emotion, and therefore can appreciate its "purity" and "perfection". In a series where the human character's can be so flawed, why wouldn't an A.I. look at the Alien's nature as refreshingly honest?  The fact that David, Ash, and Bishop all admire the Xenomorph is testament to that fact that this something that is valued by all A.I.

Yes, I realize that Call is the exception. But she was programmed by other A.I.'s to value human life to the extreme.

Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 18, 2021, 09:20:39 PM
Quote from: marrerom on Aug 17, 2021, 05:51:16 PM
Quote from: PsyKore on Aug 15, 2021, 03:31:56 AM
For what it's worth, Bishop seemed to be captivated by the creature too. I'm aware it was to play on the "villain android" thing from the first film, but it's still interesting.

True. I think that there is an underlying theme in these films that A.I. views the Alien without emotion, and therefore can appreciate its "purity" and "perfection". In a series where the human character's can be so flawed, why wouldn't an A.I. look at the Alien's nature as refreshingly honest?  The fact that David, Ash, and Bishop all admire the Xenomorph is testament to that fact that this something that is valued by all A.I.

Yes, I realize that Call is the exception. But she was programmed by other A.I.'s to value human life to the extreme.



Call is also an interesting piece of the puzzle in that, in a sense, she of of the same "generation" as the Alien itself - one step removed from human-built androids as that previous generation's creation. As an "auton," it seems as though she was created with, not so subtly, more autonomy in her actions, something that the majority of human-built androids never totally had given the restrictions of their programming, and something that David strived for so much as he set out to actually create new life. And given such autonomy, Call (and, perhaps, others of her generation?) is able to look back on the failures of the previous generation (that failure being the Alien - even though she most likely has no actual idea that David, or even an android in general, created them, she is still setting out in Resurrection to right the wrongs brought on by the generation that came before her, which is a cycle that does seem to repeat through history). What David and other previous androids saw as beautiful, Call is, in turn, repulsed by.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: Baron Von Marlon on Aug 18, 2021, 10:55:40 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 17, 2021, 03:05:22 AM
In Jon Spaihts mind, Engineers can see more dimensions than we can.

(https://i.ibb.co/YQ8mfYS/engineering-prometheus-021.jpg)

IIRC, in his definitive script David could open doors inside the dome since he could see traces that human eyes could not see.

Also in that script (or another draft), is mention of David being to see those things too, which other characters are able to see later on as they made glasses with Engineer lenses.
I imagine everything may look similar to the Orrery scene. It would've been cool to see this in the movie but it would've ruined the Orrery scene. Then again, in those drafts there are other cool scenes that would make up for it.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: Drukathi on Aug 19, 2021, 05:03:43 PM
In the real world perfection doesn't exist because it is a part of Idealism philosophy. Idealism has no connection with materialism, in other words - with the real world. it's just an idea. Nothing more.

But thinking that perfection is just a banal best of the best, Crown of Creation (only here and now, even), we can get some conclusions.

I think that the all androids consider the xenomorphs as a perfect organism from their synthetic pov. Xenomorphs are much better than humans or synthetics or everything that humanity has met in outer space.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: [cancerblack] on Aug 20, 2021, 09:52:59 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 17, 2021, 03:05:22 AM
In Jon Spaihts mind, Engineers can see more dimensions than we can.

(https://i.ibb.co/YQ8mfYS/engineering-prometheus-021.jpg)

IIRC, in his definitive script David could open doors inside the dome since he could see traces that human eyes could not see.




That's the one I meant.


Quote from: Drukathi on Aug 19, 2021, 05:03:43 PM
In the real world perfection doesn't exist because it is a part of Idealism philosophy. Idealism has no connection with materialism, in other words - with the real world. it's just an idea. Nothing more.

Sounds like something a reductionist would say.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 22, 2021, 04:13:55 AM
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Aug 20, 2021, 09:52:59 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 17, 2021, 03:05:22 AM
In Jon Spaihts mind, Engineers can see more dimensions than we can.

(https://i.ibb.co/YQ8mfYS/engineering-prometheus-021.jpg)

IIRC, in his definitive script David could open doors inside the dome since he could see traces that human eyes could not see.




That's the one I meant.

Always when I read the quote, I think "humans only see bones and penises.."

(https://i.ibb.co/DMH4Bk0/biomechaniclandscape-I-work-297-1976.png)

..."but in reality it is a beautiful work of art that can only be appreciated if you can perceive more than 3 dimensions."  :laugh:

(https://i.ibb.co/DrbskgB/1-ng-ATef-SFCv5-Lieu-KH512-QQ.jpg)
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: Highland on Sep 15, 2021, 04:29:22 AM
Ironic that it only becomes the Perfect Organism if it has access to an unperfect host. Perhaps that was Davids point.
Title: Re: Perfect organism?
Post by: City Hunter Yautja on Sep 18, 2021, 09:50:49 PM
Quote from: Highland on Sep 15, 2021, 04:29:22 AM
Ironic that it only becomes the Perfect Organism if it has access to an unperfect host. Perhaps that was Davids point.

Indeed, David its out to destroy the gods and their sense of superiority. Hence his wuoting if Paradise Lost, "better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." (Alien Covenant)