Michael Green will provide a rewrite of Jack Palgan's script.
Ridley Scott returns as Director.
Script reportedly features multiple versions of David.
http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=116395 (http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=116395)
The writer of the disastrous Green Lantern? We're in trouble.
http://www.thewrap.com/prometheus-2-lands-green-lantern-writer-may-feature-multiple-michael-fassbenders-exclusive/ (http://www.thewrap.com/prometheus-2-lands-green-lantern-writer-may-feature-multiple-michael-fassbenders-exclusive/)
All hope I had for this movie just flew out the window
Quote"Prometheus" served as an 'unofficial' prequel to Scott's seminal 1979 sci-fi movie "Alien," and the sequel that Green will write aims to be much more "alien-y" and in line with the terrifying tone of past films in the franchise.
And here I was hoping for something which was you know.. FURTHER away from Alien.
That's what Riddles said back when the first one came out.
"Alien-y" might just mean heavier on the scares - not necessarily tied to Alien.
I hope Jack Paglen's draft leaks. Would kill to read it.
The Michael Green script for Green Lantern was reportedly so utterly rewritten by other writers that the film ended up having little to do with his draft. lol Complete clusterf**k of a blockbuster production.
However.. he also wrote the pilot for the Gotham tv show and that script got some bad reviews when it leaked... So... :P
Welp.. things are moving forward... let's see how this goes. :P I have a feeling this guy was just hired for his ability to obey Ridley Scott without challenging his shit.
Jack Paglen's not bad, but Micheal Green.. .the only one happy with this will be Aspie :P
Quote from: Blacklabel on Mar 24, 2014, 11:04:52 PM
The Michael Green script for Green Lantern was reportedly so utterly rewritten by other writers that the film ended up having little to do with his draft. lol Complete clusterf**k of a blockbuster production.
So just like
Prometheus, basically ;D
didnt you say something about this sequel never being made.. that this would fall into DEVELOPMENT HELL forever... :laugh:
LOL X)
Yeah, lemme know when it actually goes before the cameras ;D :P
Twelve re-writes later and it's actually Die Hard 6.
Fifteen rewrites later and it's Vengeance for Wolf.
Deacon must revenge on Shaw for killing father.
Earth is DOOM, all over again.
I welcome a sequel. The first movie, while flawed, had some nice things going for it. :)
REMEMBER, sequels are worse most of the time than the first movies! Just imagine in this case....
Multiple Davids? I wonder if this is an art house, early April Fools Day prank.
I think Galaxy should get together and watch it in theaters and heckle like boss when it comes out.
Everyone is bitching and moaning on other sites about the writer, who happened to penned the Green Lantern movie.. I haven't seen the Green Lantern movie, and I probably likely won't see it at all but.. we'll see where this goes.
I'll remain cautiously optimistic, albeit with lowered expectations this time around.
If its got more monsters eating people in it I'll go see it anyways.
The River is worse... It got cancelled after one season and this same writer was hired for the same re-writting purpose that time.
Part of me says a guy should get a chance to progress as a writer.
The other part of me says he should do it on somebody else's movie.
Call me crazy, but I would love to have Lindelof back. While Prometheus desperately needed another rewrite or two, I do usually find myself enjoying Lindelof's work.
I don't even want to know how multiple Davids is possible with the material established at the end of the first movie, unless this turns into some kind of psychedelic black goo trip. :laugh:
The rescue mission to LV-223 is looking better and better.
But in all seriousness, as much as I hated Green Lantern, it is cool to hear some semi-potentially-concrete news about the sequel.
Quote from: ikarop on Mar 25, 2014, 12:04:29 AM
The River is worse... It got cancelled after one season and this same writer was hired for the same re-writting purpose that time.
I've never seen the River, and I have never seen Green Lantern. I'm not sure what other works this guy has done, but chances are I haven't seen them. So.. I can't say anything really bad about this guy or even this development.
I liked the first Prometheus. I actually enjoyed it a lot.. So, I'm gonna have a wait and see with this one.
Quote from: Ultramorph on Mar 25, 2014, 12:08:28 AM
I don't even want to know how multiple Davids is possible with the material established at the end of the first movie, unless this turns into some kind of psychedelic black goo trip. :laugh:
Well, the article doesn't mention a return of Shaw. Maybe the sequel could be a rescue mission of some sort, with multiple Davids on board whatever the new ship is.
Could be that they will meet up with Shaw and David's head later in the film, or have two stories running concurrently. Hell, maybe they won't bring Shaw back until a third movie.
well the problem was with Prometheus that no matter how simple was the script and lame RIDLEY had the last word to direct it and the scenes, and imo to f**k the movie up, and Ridley is the director again, more worried about that
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 25, 2014, 12:09:28 AM
Quote from: ikarop on Mar 25, 2014, 12:04:29 AM
The River is worse... It got cancelled after one season and this same writer was hired for the same re-writting purpose that time.
I've never seen the River, and I have never seen Green Lantern. I'm not sure what other works this guy has done, but chances are I haven't seen them. So.. I can't say anything really bad about this guy or even this development.
I liked the first Prometheus. I actually enjoyed it a lot.. So, I'm gonna have a wait and see with this one.
It's bad but then again they wouldn't be working together in both Blade Runner and Prometheus if Ridley didn't think this guy is good. I trust his judgement so fingers crossed.
The writing made Prometheus bad. Ridley just didn't realize it or care at the time and tried to go all visual on us. Hopefully somebody is in his ear this time about how mediocre the first story was.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 25, 2014, 12:12:14 AM
Quote from: Ultramorph on Mar 25, 2014, 12:08:28 AM
I don't even want to know how multiple Davids is possible with the material established at the end of the first movie, unless this turns into some kind of psychedelic black goo trip. :laugh:
Well, the article doesn't mention a return of Shaw. Maybe the sequel could be a rescue mission of some sort, with multiple Davids on board whatever the new ship is.
Could be that they will meet up with Shaw and David's head later in the film, or have two stories running concurrently. Hell, maybe they won't bring Shaw back until a third movie.
That's a distinct possibility. Honestly, the whole "alien-y" thing is good with me. As much as I liked the idea of the series tangentializing away from Alien with the sequels, if they wind up deciding to keep more of those roots, as a fan, I'm more than cool with it.
I'm taking this news with a huge grain of salt until confirmed otherwise, though. It's too close to April 1 for me to do otherwise. Remember the "announcement" last April that we'd see a facehugger facegug David
and GOD?
Aye. Could just be a case of ol'Riddles taking advantage of him, too. Maybe he doesn't say no and Ridley likes that :P
I just hope that although Ridley may not be interested in the xenomorph and Giger-like landscapes, practically all of the rest of the world is - and I hope he gets that this time round. Despite the first film's multiple flaws, the biggest one of all was that people wanted an Alien Prequel, and they got one, just without the Alien in it. That was why people were disappointed.
*And as for multiple Davids, I'd buy that notion simply because Fassbender is too big a box office draw to simply have round as a decapitated head for the duration of the movie.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Mar 25, 2014, 12:20:17 AM
I just hope that although Ridley may not be interested in the xenomorph and Giger-like landscapes, practically all of the rest of the world is - and I hope he gets that this time round. Despite the first film's multiple flaws, the biggest one of all was that people wanted an Alien Prequel, and they got one, just without the Alien in it. That was why people were disappointed.
Nah, in my opinion moving away from the Alien was a fantastic move. It was the below-average script, terrible editing/pacing in the second half, and (to some) the uprooting of
Alien's main themes that caused the major problems.
I don't know if I don't or do like the move away from Alien. I know I don't like the pansy ass rehash though. If its going to be an influence come strong with it.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 25, 2014, 12:24:51 AM
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Mar 25, 2014, 12:20:17 AM
I just hope that although Ridley may not be interested in the xenomorph and Giger-like landscapes, practically all of the rest of the world is - and I hope he gets that this time round. Despite the first film's multiple flaws, the biggest one of all was that people wanted an Alien Prequel, and they got one, just without the Alien in it. That was why people were disappointed.
Nah, in my opinion moving away from the Alien was a fantastic move. It was the below-average script, terrible editing/pacing in the second half, and (to some) the uprooting of Alien's main themes that caused the major problems.
Sure, there's certainly a significant contingent who believe that. But from a global audience point of view, you get told an Alien Prequel is being made by Ridley Scott, you expect to see the Alien again, or at least some variant of it (Deacon's 5 second cameo doesn't count). That's where the box office draw is. But instead you get a prequel with no alien, leaving the majority confused and disappointed. That was the fundamental mistake with the first one.
Would the hype have been there in the first place if Prometheus wasn't set in the Alien universe? The Engineers could have been a completely original creation for a new universe and franchise. People would have said, yeah pretty good but flawed. But hell, having seen this I sure wish Ridley would return to Alien...
Quote from: Kimarhi on Mar 25, 2014, 12:05:45 AM
Part of me says a guy should get a chance to progress as a writer.
The other part of me says he should do it on somebody else's movie.
Pretty much exactly this.
Ridley Scott certainly likes him but then he also liked Lindelof and his script was close to unreadable (though a step in the right direction in my opinion).
They are confident to go for a sequel?
I hope that they know that the first's movie intake was mostly base on Scott and Alien.
They've been confident to go for a sequel since the first one did well critically and financially.
Quote from: SM on Mar 25, 2014, 01:19:12 AM
They've been confident to go for a sequel since the first one did well critically and financially.
Didn't Scott sign on to do a trilogy?
Don't think so. I think he said there was enough ideas to support a couple more films.
And I know the Alien prequel—back when it was an Alien prequel—was slated to be two films.
We should probably take all this with a grain of salt, especially if the film really is set for March 2016. A lot of stuff was swirling around about Prometheus two years before it came out that proved to be untrue. I hope that's the case with "multiple Davids." That's taking "give the people what they want" to an idiotic extreme.
I woulda thought pre-judging without any kind of context would be an idiotic extreme.
I am looking foward to it, hopefully it will answer some unaswered questions Prometheus has presented or at least give some explanation to different things that took place in the movie. I have hope for the movie and I am very excited to see what happens next.
You can defend multiple Davids walking around from the writer of Green Lantern all you want, SM. I'm still looking forward to the movie, but you bet there's a certain level of pre- judgement about this information.
I like the first movie despite not seeing it since it came out in theaters. I hope we can see more of the Xeno at the end of the first movie.
Quote from: Ultramorph on Mar 25, 2014, 02:16:54 AM
You can defend multiple Davids walking around from the writer of Green Lantern all you want, SM. I'm still looking forward to the movie, but you bet there's a certain level of pre- judgement about this information.
Why? He's a robot - it's perfectly possible there's more than one.
Variety are saying
"Fox has not yet dated the sequel. Scott will produce through his Scott Free banner though it's unknown if he will direct."
I'm not denying the possibility. We even see two Davids in one of the viral promotions for the first movie. That isn't my complaint. My complaint is that I see it as gratuitous and potentially very silly to have two or more Davids in the movie. It's just Fassbender awkwardly talking to himself at that point. It also seems desperate, in that most reviews praised Fassbender's performance, so the studio says " Let's have two Fassbender's in the next movie!!!!"
It's like having two Ripleys.
Quote from: tmjhur on Mar 25, 2014, 02:30:16 AM
Variety are saying
"Fox has not yet dated the sequel. Scott will produce through his Scott Free banner though it's unknown if he will direct."
link plz
http://variety.com/2014/film/news/promotheus-sequel-moving-forward-with-blade-runner-writer-1201145249/ (http://variety.com/2014/film/news/promotheus-sequel-moving-forward-with-blade-runner-writer-1201145249/)
yeah already found it
cheers
Inb4 Carl Rinch, or Luke Scott direct.
Green was also involved with Heroes? And a bit more hope is lost.
Quote from: Ultramorph on Mar 25, 2014, 02:37:19 AM
Green was also involved with Heroes? And a bit more hope is lost.
I think it might have been the first season, which was passable.
Quote from: Cvalda on Mar 25, 2014, 02:33:49 AM
http://variety.com/2014/film/news/promotheus-sequel-moving-forward-with-blade-runner-writer-1201145249/ (http://variety.com/2014/film/news/promotheus-sequel-moving-forward-with-blade-runner-writer-1201145249/)
Good thing I deleted TheWrap link from my Tumblr.
Quote from: Rong on Mar 25, 2014, 02:40:59 AM
Quote from: Ultramorph on Mar 25, 2014, 02:37:19 AM
Green was also involved with Heroes? And a bit more hope is lost.
I think it might have been the first season, which was passable.
I'll look, but I hope you're right. Third or fourth season would be an omen of doom.
He did the first two seasons.
Quote from: Ultramorph on Mar 25, 2014, 02:30:28 AM
I'm not denying the possibility. We even see two Davids in one of the viral promotions for the first movie. That isn't my complaint. My complaint is that I see it as gratuitous and potentially very silly to have two or more Davids in the movie. It's just Fassbender awkwardly talking to himself at that point. It also seems desperate, in that most reviews praised Fassbender's performance, so the studio says " Let's have two Fassbender's in the next movie!!!!"
It's like having two Ripleys.
...
Ripley wasnt a robot.
Quote from: Blacklabel on Mar 25, 2014, 02:49:36 AM
Quote from: Ultramorph on Mar 25, 2014, 02:30:28 AM
I'm not denying the possibility. We even see two Davids in one of the viral promotions for the first movie. That isn't my complaint. My complaint is that I see it as gratuitous and potentially very silly to have two or more Davids in the movie. It's just Fassbender awkwardly talking to himself at that point. It also seems desperate, in that most reviews praised Fassbender's performance, so the studio says " Let's have two Fassbender's in the next movie!!!!"
It's like having two Ripleys.
...
Ripley wasnt a robot.
For the love of God I get that.
I'm just saying that I don't much like the idea of more than one of any character walking around, android or not.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 25, 2014, 12:00:36 AM
I'll remain cautiously optimistic, albeit with lowered expectations this time around.
Pretty much. As far as the writer, gawd why.
Quote from: Ultramorph on Mar 25, 2014, 02:51:20 AM
I'm just saying that I don't much like the idea of more than one of any character walking around, android or not.
Been done well tons of times in film and tv. :P Orphan Black, Battlestar Galactica, Dead Ringers.... so i dont get the preemptive hate of the idea. :P
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Mar 25, 2014, 02:41:52 AM
Quote from: Cvalda on Mar 25, 2014, 02:33:49 AM
http://variety.com/2014/film/news/promotheus-sequel-moving-forward-with-blade-runner-writer-1201145249/ (http://variety.com/2014/film/news/promotheus-sequel-moving-forward-with-blade-runner-writer-1201145249/)
Good thing I deleted TheWrap link from my Tumblr.
Well The Wrap did state that multiple sources confirmed that the March 2016 movie was Prometheus 2.
Then they went on to say an insider said it would start production in Autumn.
So it is possible that these people are right on the money but Fox just won't confirm anything yet for sure.
Or they are possibly leaving open the opportunity for Ridley to direct something else for the March 2016 release.
I hope it is Prometheus 2 anyway.
Quote from: Blacklabel on Mar 25, 2014, 02:53:28 AM
Quote from: Ultramorph on Mar 25, 2014, 02:51:20 AM
I'm just saying that I don't much like the idea of more than one of any character walking around, android or not.
Been done well tons of times in film and tv. :P Orphan Black, Battlestar Galactica, Dead Ringers.... so i dont get the preemptive hate of the idea. :P
It being done before makes no difference. I've always disliked it as a plot point. Ripley 8 meeting Ripley 7 was pushing it for me. Bishop and the Weyland droid in Colonial Marines was silly. Kirk and evil Kirk was a fairly bad episode of Star Trek. I'm allowed to not like a plot idea in general.
Quote from: Ultramorph on Mar 25, 2014, 02:57:47 AM
Quote from: Blacklabel on Mar 25, 2014, 02:53:28 AM
Quote from: Ultramorph on Mar 25, 2014, 02:51:20 AM
I'm just saying that I don't much like the idea of more than one of any character walking around, android or not.
Been done well tons of times in film and tv. :P Orphan Black, Battlestar Galactica, Dead Ringers.... so i dont get the preemptive hate of the idea. :P
It being done before makes no difference. I've always disliked it as a plot point. Ripley 8 meeting Ripley 7 was pushing it for me. Bishop and the Weyland droid in Colonial Marines was silly. Kirk and evil Kirk was a fairly bad episode of Star Trek. I'm allowed to not like a plot idea in general.
It seems probable to me that if there are multiple David androids it will either involve the Engineers remixing David and/or a rescue team using a David as consultant of sorts. Otherwise, it could be about humans trying to perfect the David android after malfunctions. I like that idea.
Anyway, I think saying Davids will be walking around talking to each other might be reading too much into it at this point.
QuoteMy complaint is that I see it as gratuitous and potentially very silly to have two or more Davids in the movie.
How is it gratuitous or silly if it serves the story?
Ripley 7 and Ripley 8 wasn't silly. That scene is cited by many - even detractors - as one of the film's best. Neither was Bishop and Bishop II silly.
WHY must they keep bringing writing "lowballers" into the mix... These people are mostly writing for shows and that doesn't work for movies. One of the main reasons Prometheus was so f**ked was because Lindelof wrote it as if it was an episode. Now this next guy will probably make the same mistake... Shit at this point it would probably be better to just have Lindelof come back and finish what he started.
Quote from: GQSioux on Mar 24, 2014, 10:46:14 PM
The writer of the disastrous Green Lantern? We're in trouble.
http://www.thewrap.com/prometheus-2-lands-green-lantern-writer-may-feature-multiple-michael-fassbenders-exclusive/ (http://www.thewrap.com/prometheus-2-lands-green-lantern-writer-may-feature-multiple-michael-fassbenders-exclusive/)
Yeah, I was just thinking that. There's no reason for me to think this will be good.
If it serves the story I'll retract the criticism. If it were to involve the Engineers experimenting on David, I could go for it a bit, but I don't much like the idea of a rescue mission with two or more Davids scheming, etc. Why not have multiple types of androids? I just happen to read it cynically at this point. "People liked Fassbender, let's have two of him!"
Ripley 8 and 7 was a good scene, but that's just it: it was one emotionally involved scene that added to the plot. That was also 17 years ago and I have no faith in the studios to not just Fassbender wank the whole movie. I can somewhat say "I'll have to wait and see," but it's not an aspect that has me very excited.
But since we seem to just fundamentally disagree, I've said all I have to say on the issue.
GL sucked since the producers of the film step in and ask re-writes of the script. The movie was nowhere as good as the original script.
YES!! I thought it would never be made.
QuoteWhy not have multiple types of androids?
Because David is the only type as far as we know at that point.
And if Fassbender is a major strength - and he is - what's wrong exploiting your strengths?
lol Green Lantern writer...shit. :laugh:
Quote from: SM on Mar 25, 2014, 05:33:14 AM
QuoteWhy not have multiple types of androids?
Because David is the only type as far as we know at that point.
And if Fassbender is a major strength - and he is - what's wrong exploiting your strengths?
The sequel can be set any number of years after the first movie. There's no reason e couldn't see other prototype androids; Alien was only about 30 years later, and you had Ash, so clearly the technology advanced pretty quickly.
As far as exploiting strengths, I agree that Fassbender was a huge strength. I really enjoyed his character and performance. That being said, why not just have the one character and grow and develope him? I just don't see any way having multiple Davids is going to serve the story. It sounds far too close to what we saw with Tom Cruise in Oblivion for my tastes. That's my opinion, and I've stated why I have it. Feel free to keep disagreeing. We'll see when the movie comes out.
And again, this whole thing could just be BS like usually floats around two years before a movie comes out.
the happy birthday david viral established there was more than one "david" model, i don't see what the big deal is.
FFS, it's not an issue of the possibility of multiple Davids. There are clearly very many of them. I just don't like the idea of there being more than one in the movie for any great amount of time.
QuoteAnd again, this whole thing could just be BS like usually floats around two years before a movie comes out.
Indeed. So there's probably no need to be so vitriolic about it.
True, though I only get that way when it seems people are being deliberately dense.
I for one really enjoyed Prometheus, It opened up a few doors, yeah it left things unanswered but im ok with this.. And I heard they were doing two additional movies years ago, at least Scott wanted to. So i could see them tying this into Alien, over the course of two more films.
Rescue mission to 223 finds the now fully developed deacon, things obviously go wrong. Word gets back to WY corporate hq. Just some thoughts
Id like to see more into the Alien back story
Quote from: SM on Mar 25, 2014, 01:19:12 AM
They've been confident to go for a sequel since the first one did well critically and financially.
Actually it was touch and go until domestic home release numbers came through, and Scott seems more interested in making theme pieces rather than actual movies when it comes to his current swath of non reality projects. I'd rather have a movie than a bunch of mostly connected cut-scenes.
Quoteknows what he's doing
Yeah, he does. Not really sure that means it's something to instantly like. At this stage in his career people can't seem to be able to tell him "NO", and as one would recall if that were the case in Alien, we'd have green martian Ash and a fifteen minute title sequence. Not every idea he puts to task has been flawless, and Prometheus had some definite lack of coherency.
Green f*cking Lantern, well if it's true time to prove your worth.
Happy.
;D
In my fan script for Prommy 2 I had two Davids.
It's an interesting idea, two robots discussing their surroundings etc. Plus we've never had that in an Alien movie before.
The Varierty article certainly throws a minor spanner in the works though I'm still firmly of mind that the mystery Ridley Scott/ Fox film is the Prometheus sequel. And considering his latest go-to writer has been hired for the screenplay I'm sure Scott will end up directing too.
If Fox are holding out comment for an official press release then they're playing it right. People are talking about the series again where they haven't for months.
Quote from: Ultramorph on Mar 25, 2014, 02:43:21 AM
Quote from: Rong on Mar 25, 2014, 02:40:59 AM
Quote from: Ultramorph on Mar 25, 2014, 02:37:19 AM
Green was also involved with Heroes? And a bit more hope is lost.
I think it might have been the first season, which was passable.
I'll look, but I hope you're right. Third or fourth season would be an omen of doom.
Lol, it was the forced condensing of the second season of
Heroes that was a disaster. And that was because of the writers' strike. The third and fourth seasons were vast improvements on the second season. I'd even go so far as to say that the fourth season was on par with the first season in terms of quality.
Awesome news. That Green Lantern movie was horrible though... but then again I'm sure it was a great learning experience for the writer. Ridley hinted that's we will meet god in the sequel... my monies on it either being people or xenos.
You never see true work of the writer.
He might write absolute masterpiece screenplay, but various demands and notes from the studio and the stars change the original script.. and the result is mess. And the blame goes to the writer everytime.
I'll never set my mind to how I want a movie to be. Prometheus taught me that lesson so with this one I'm trying to not even speculate too much. With said writers on this production it really does seem a gamble though what movie isn't?
The multiple David android scene would be funny if some Weyland executive was shown being sexed up by multiple androids. That would be so cheesy I'd fall out of my seat in tears. In fact now that I think about it I'm not going to be happy until I see that on screen in 3D.
- the biggest flaw would be to show Shaw's & David's journey. never show it, never. let it for our imagination
- make a new crew with another "good" David, searching after Shaw, showing just a glimpse of the homeworld and find out the faith of Shaw.
- maybe the David head took control over the alien homeworld's mechanism's, intresting, ironic would be to have in control the creature of the creators of the creators AS A REAL BOY this time. having his head on a space jockey torso via the black goo.
- having Shaw in a role of an AI as a hologram for the new David, exploiting more about faith and history, digging up secrets in space together - the best friends, the opposite relationship like between the old Shaw and David. just to show how different can be the two same soulles thing
- represent the "good" David as "bad" character, whos only nice and kind to his Shaw hologram, the only real person who he ever would like when they met finally, would set up a twist and his sacrafice in the end, even tho he doesnt prefer humans
- in the end aim on the who created who line with the story, in the centre of David, who is he, what is he, is he have a soul or not, is he have free will etc.
- a David vs David "battle" where comes up revenge(!) for the loved(!) Shaw from the good David who was eager to meet the real Shaw al allong(would be a good twist if she would dead by already)
- keep it spiritual and emotional, lets have a meaning ....doubt it will happen
Prometheus was terrible and things don't look much brighter with the sequel. But still must hope for the best, surely can't be much worse than Prometheus.
So I just checked now and Michael Green served as a producer in the first 2 seasons of Heroes but he only actually wrote for 3 episodes in total, all of which were solid episodes:
Season 1: Episode 5 "Hiros"
Season 1: Episode 14 "Distractions"
Season 2: Episode 2 "Lizards"
He also wrote for Smallville. I'm not sure how his writing was on Smallville - maybe someone else who watched the series can comment on the episodes he wrote:
Season 1: Episode 5 "Cool"
Season 1: Episode 7 "Craving"
Season 1: Episode 10 "Shimmer"
Season 1: Episode 18 "Drone"
But the fact he wrote for episodes that took place in the first season of both shows, and both of which received mostly positive reviews for their first seasons, is a good sign.
Now he's had a big blunder too: Green Lantern. But there were a few writers who worked on that script.
And he's written for Everwood and Sex and the City - I can't comment on his work on those shows because I don't really care for them.
It's difficult to judge now how he will do without actually seeing and hearing more of the story. And, even then, Ridley might make some questionable decisions on Prometheus 2.
So do yall actually think the March 2016 movie will be Prometheus 2 directed by Ridley Scott? What if it ain't? What then?
GAME OVER MAN.....GAME OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually, not necessarily...
Aliens and Alien 3 were both fantastic and weren't directed by Ridley.
I wouldn't call Alien3 fantastic. It's decent, but not on the level of Aliens in terms of quality.
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 25, 2014, 12:30:47 PM
Actually, not necessarily...
Aliens and Alien 3 were both fantastic and weren't directed by Ridley.
My "Game Over Man" was in relation to the release date, not in regards Scott directing.
I don't think Scott knows a good script when he sees it unfortunately.
A younger, ballsy director who can get his/her way with the suits is what this movie needs.
Having said that, anyone who has seen the extended cut of The Counselor knows Ridley can still do gore.
I think Scott could still have "it". Time is just not on his side so he can't let things brew as much as they need to in pre/post production.
It's just frustrating to watch a director make movies that could be classics but always seem to stop short of being so due to some fundamental flaw(s), whether it be bad casting, plotting, editing, de biomechanising the Space Jockey, or underwriting/overwriting story.
Quote from: DoomRulz on Mar 25, 2014, 01:13:24 PM
I wouldn't call Alien3 fantastic. It's decent, but not on the level of Aliens in terms of quality.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg50.imageshack.us%2Fimg50%2F4705%2Faceventura01si3.gif&hash=e3d4909921299fcf9d60a44db3a4c2995d2666aa)
Quote from: DoomRulz on Mar 25, 2014, 01:13:24 PM
I wouldn't call Alien3 fantastic. It's decent, but not on the level of Aliens in terms of quality.
I personally prefer it to
Aliens. And of course I'm talking about the Assembly Cut of the film.
I'm cautiously optimistic with this. I am betting that Fox and Scott know full well the disappointments and triumphs from Prometheus. This sequel could be good, terrible, or mediocre. Who knows. We shall see.
Nice seeing all of the players posting again in the same form as before (myself included).
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 25, 2014, 02:24:24 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Mar 25, 2014, 01:13:24 PM
I wouldn't call Alien3 fantastic. It's decent, but not on the level of Aliens in terms of quality.
I personally prefer it to Aliens. And of course I'm talking about the Assembly Cut of the film.
Seconded.
I'm looking forward to the artbook. :P
Quote from: ThisBethesdaSea on Mar 25, 2014, 02:27:51 PM
I'm cautiously optimistic with this. I am betting that Fox and Scott know full well the disappointments and triumphs from Prometheus. This sequel could be good, terrible, or mediocre. Who knows. We shall see.
Nice seeing all of the players posting again in the same form as before (myself included).
If they are making this movie I shall be steering clear of the forums and the marketing campaign this time. I did spoil Prometheus for myself but in many ways it was triggered by the fact that they were so ambiguous in the first place about whether the movie was tied to Alien or not.
I will make it my goal to get another comment immortalized on the Prometheus 2 Blu-Ray. :laugh:
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 25, 2014, 02:44:33 PM
I will make it my goal to get another comment immortalized on the Prometheus 2 Blu-Ray. :laugh:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2F181fdc273b46a3687b8f2d4dcd1997af%2Ftumblr_n1gpfg46OO1so0ukuo1_500.gif&hash=d6067fe78af18e3bb36757cca2ea65ac42ec691e)
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 25, 2014, 02:44:33 PM
I will make it my goal to get another comment immortalized on the Prometheus 2 Blu-Ray. :laugh:
Why what happened before????????
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 25, 2014, 02:24:24 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Mar 25, 2014, 01:13:24 PM
I wouldn't call Alien3 fantastic. It's decent, but not on the level of Aliens in terms of quality.
I personally prefer it to Aliens. And of course I'm talking about the Assembly Cut of the film.
I really can't choose between the two films, myself. While I can (and often do) watch
Alien as a standalone film, I usually feel like I have to watch
Aliens and
Alien 3 together. As different as they are stylistically, I feel that the two combined make an even greater whole (despite
Alien 3's mangled production showing through in either cut) and provide perfect closure to Ripley's main arc.
Alien 3 and
Prometheus actually suffer from a lot of the same problems in my book, but I am usually much more forgiving of
Alien 3.
Prometheus never suffered through
Alien 3's horrid production; instead it just felt rushed. A few rewrites and some better editing of the final film would have done
Prometheus wonders.
Alien 3, unfortunately, never had that option, and while the final film suffers from it I also feel that that adds a bit to its charm.
Quote from: Cvalda on Mar 25, 2014, 02:49:14 PM
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 25, 2014, 02:44:33 PM
I will make it my goal to get another comment immortalized on the Prometheus 2 Blu-Ray. :laugh:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/181fdc273b46a3687b8f2d4dcd1997af/tumblr_n1gpfg46OO1so0ukuo1_500.gif
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F31.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lewq1xGZZm1qa8vpro1_400.gif&hash=266abde9b60208bbbe19208991f1e9d056fa45aa)
Quote from: DoomRulz on Mar 25, 2014, 01:13:24 PM
I wouldn't call Alien3 fantastic. It's decent, but not on the level of Aliens in terms of quality.
Directing-wise it's fantastic. The script, oh the script...
Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 25, 2014, 02:55:22 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Mar 25, 2014, 01:13:24 PM
I wouldn't call Alien3 fantastic. It's decent, but not on the level of Aliens in terms of quality.
Directing-wise it's fantastic. The script, oh the script...
+ 1
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 25, 2014, 02:54:19 PM
Quote from: Cvalda on Mar 25, 2014, 02:49:14 PM
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 25, 2014, 02:44:33 PM
I will make it my goal to get another comment immortalized on the Prometheus 2 Blu-Ray. :laugh:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/181fdc273b46a3687b8f2d4dcd1997af/tumblr_n1gpfg46OO1so0ukuo1_500.gif
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lewq1xGZZm1qa8vpro1_400.gif
Did something of yours make the Prometheus Blu Ray?
Yeah, there's a couple screencaps from the forum in the documentary, I believe. Cvalda and Vickers are among the featured members.
It's a screenshot of us talking about one of the posters. :P
15 seconds of fame completely extinguished lol
I watched a bit of the 4 hour making of doc and ALL the designers say how opposed they were to the changes made to the Space Jockey. Stupid Ridley!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.internetmonk.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fcan_of_worms_ahead.jpg&hash=73474fa01cd89f60a6931ffc38dc1ba0f3368ab9)
Quote from: Rong on Mar 25, 2014, 03:05:09 PM
15 seconds of fame completely extinguished lol
Or is it?
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2AC2qVL.gif&hash=5b9abef653be152dbbe8022c2eeacd8f71469c6b)
Go shoot up a mall wearing a avpgalaxy tshirt.... Immortalise this place and all your posts :-*
Quote from: Rong on Mar 25, 2014, 03:18:23 PM
Go shoot up mall wearing a avpgalaxy tshirt.... Immortalise this place and all your posts :-*
Wut.
Rong, I'm an AvPG member... not a psychopath. :P
In his case, there's not much of a difference ;D
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 25, 2014, 03:22:31 PM
Quote from: Rong on Mar 25, 2014, 03:18:23 PM
Go shoot up mall wearing a avpgalaxy tshirt.... Immortalise this place and all your posts :-*
Rong, I'm an AvPG member... not a psychopath. :P
That was probably the greatest couple of posts I've read on here in a long time.
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 25, 2014, 03:15:08 PM
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Well it would have been a good decision if the movie had a story but it basically was a prologue instead.
Nope.
Not going to engage. ::)
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 25, 2014, 03:28:24 PM
Nope.
Not going to engage. ::)
I just hope they use a lot of the unused concept art/designs in the sequel. There really was some cool stuff.
For instance the adult Deacon looks amazing.
That I'll agree on. ;)
They need to fu€King design a better deacon, then that horse shit version at the end. That creature was laughably bad, and it looked like it was wearing a jump suit.
If anything we'll get a good trailer.
Quote from: ThisBethesdaSea on Mar 25, 2014, 04:06:43 PM
They need to fu€King design a better deacon, then that horse shit version at the end. That creature was laughably bad, and it looked like it was wearing a jump suit.
Yeah they totally rushed that. the adult design looks cool and in the making of recently they said that they kept coming back to Carlos Huante's original design so hopefully they'll keep it for the sequel.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.coronacomingattractions.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fnews%2Fprometheus_deacon_concept_art.jpg&hash=a8d68204642d6e387229bf76f44e5557b1e88aa5)
Quote from: Game_Over_Man on Mar 25, 2014, 04:56:33 PM
If anything we'll get a good trailer.
Haha yes indeed.
That design is awesome but that particular image doesn't do it for me.
This though...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwhatculture.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F06%2Fart003.jpg&hash=8a4b5d1c329a80d0a670c994250481ba5e4ebb0e)
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 25, 2014, 05:57:17 PM
That design is awesome but that particular image doesn't do it for me.
This though...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ropeofsilicon.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F06%2Fprometheus-xeno-0682012-234426.jpg&hash=4dc0e63d6c28e2f052aa6cd57e6cf2439dc995a3)
Your image isn't showing up however I put in the url and I'm not mad on it. I like when you can see the human teeth of the Deacon, makes it way creepier. God has anyone seen that fish with human teeth? The horror.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.scientificamerican.com%2Frunning-ponies%2Ffiles%2F2013%2F03%2F7314923468_3bc028cf7f_z.jpg&hash=0c3dd3eae794bf42b78f8d4900552949249a42b5)
Quote from: tmjhur on Mar 25, 2014, 06:15:35 PM
however I put in the url and I'm not mad on it. I like when you can see the human teeth of the Deacon, makes it way creepier.
It's the same design of the creature in both images pretty much.
I was talking about the actual image, what you're seeing.
Quote from: reecebomb on Mar 25, 2014, 12:17:25 PM
Prometheus was terrible and things don't look much brighter with the sequel. But still must hope for the best, surely can't be much worse than Prometheus.
Yes it can be "worse"... Alien 3, Alien Resurrection, AVP, AVP2 and most of Hollywood mainstream cinema. In comparison, Prometheus was a piece of high art.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 25, 2014, 06:28:28 PM
Yes it can be "worse"... Alien 3, Alien Resurrection, AVP, AVP2 and most of Hollywood mainstream cinema. In comparison, Prometheus was a piece of high art.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lqeesvwHmP1qkhn90o1_500.gif&hash=680ed2b49c858b03d8a6870f2695d095a89d77cd)
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 25, 2014, 06:31:27 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 25, 2014, 06:28:28 PM
Yes it can be "worse"... Alien 3, Alien Resurrection, AVP, AVP2 and most of Hollywood mainstream cinema. In comparison, Prometheus was a piece of high art.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqeesvwHmP1qkhn90o1_500.gif
That was just perfect hahaha. :laugh: Alien 3, Alien resurrection, and Prometheus should be defended they are all good films.
Prometheus made Resurrection seem better than it is.
Prometheus is a better alien movie than A:R.
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I thought Prometheus was a better Alien film than Aliens. But not a better film
Different strokes.
I don't really know what people thought would happen when an unarmed opponent went up against an armed opponent though.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Mar 25, 2014, 08:41:19 PM
Different strokes.
I don't really know what people thought would happen when an unarmed opponent went up against an armed opponent though.
It's not very sporting to fire on an unarmed man.
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 25, 2014, 03:22:31 PM
Quote from: Rong on Mar 25, 2014, 03:18:23 PM
Go shoot up mall wearing a avpgalaxy tshirt.... Immortalise this place and all your posts :-*
Wut.
Rong, I'm an AvPG member... not a psychopath. :P
Quote from: Cvalda on Mar 25, 2014, 03:25:44 PM
In his case, he thinks there's not much of a difference ;D between a avpg member and a psychopath.
Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 25, 2014, 02:55:22 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Mar 25, 2014, 01:13:24 PM
I wouldn't call Alien3 fantastic. It's decent, but not on the level of Aliens in terms of quality.
Directing-wise it's fantastic. The script, oh the script...
Lol, directing wise it was a mess. Let's not kid ourselves here.
But this is for another thread. Back to Prommy 2, yes? I hope the film actually gives us some straight answers this time like where the Alien originated and how the Deacon ties into it.
There's nothing wrong with the direction.
I don't think DoomRulz is really familiar enough with the film to even make that call, lulz.
Quote from: DoomRulz on Feb 12, 2014, 03:00:06 PM
Quote from: GQSioux on Feb 06, 2014, 12:15:48 AM
I don't know why, but I've always loved this behind the scenes pic:
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Just curious; is from Aliens?
I didn't recall the Runner's head being that transparent; whatever. I think Fincher could've been made some better calls with where the script went, but again, that's for another thread.
Quote from: DoomRulz on Mar 25, 2014, 10:57:05 PM
I didn't recall the Runner's head being that transparent; whatever. I think Fincher could've been made some better calls with where the script went, but again, that's for another thread.
That's never the Runner we really ever see on screen. Unless you count it's foot.
Quote from: Rong on Mar 24, 2014, 11:17:36 PM
Jack Paglen's not bad, but Micheal Green.. .the only one happy with this will be Aspie :P
I have full confidence in this crew.
Full confidence.
Quote from: Aspie on Mar 25, 2014, 11:39:49 PM
Quote from: Rong on Mar 24, 2014, 11:17:36 PM
Jack Paglen's not bad, but Micheal Green.. .the only one happy with this will be Aspie :P
I have full confidence in this crew.
Full confidence.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2F9%2F9b%2FLuke_Skywalker.png%2F250px-Luke_Skywalker.png&hash=b31e23ab6e5349ed71a409c0cde35cad93ae2db5)
Your overconfidence is your weakness.
Quote from: First Blood on Mar 25, 2014, 11:43:17 PM
Quote from: Aspie on Mar 25, 2014, 11:39:49 PM
Quote from: Rong on Mar 24, 2014, 11:17:36 PM
Jack Paglen's not bad, but Micheal Green.. .the only one happy with this will be Aspie :P
I have full confidence in this crew.
Full confidence.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9b/Luke_Skywalker.png/250px-Luke_Skywalker.png
Your overconfidence is your weakness.
who is this Justin bieber look-alike
Quote from: Aspie on Mar 25, 2014, 11:39:49 PM
Quote from: Rong on Mar 24, 2014, 11:17:36 PM
Jack Paglen's not bad, but Micheal Green.. .the only one happy with this will be Aspie :P
I have full confidence in this crew.
Full confidence.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Fa4a483a33b8050d9378dcfacfed083c1%2Ftumblr_mq25v5oJLl1rda7gwo1_500.jpg&hash=b9af29a1b32b97754ecf41f4d40f972dc91a74d8)
Quote from: Aspie on Mar 25, 2014, 11:44:43 PM
Quote from: First Blood on Mar 25, 2014, 11:43:17 PM
Quote from: Aspie on Mar 25, 2014, 11:39:49 PM
Quote from: Rong on Mar 24, 2014, 11:17:36 PM
Jack Paglen's not bad, but Micheal Green.. .the only one happy with this will be Aspie :P
I have full confidence in this crew.
Full confidence.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9b/Luke_Skywalker.png/250px-Luke_Skywalker.png
Your overconfidence is your weakness.
who is this Justin bieber look-alike
You live under a rock.
What's an 'ur' opinion?
Quote from: Gash on Mar 25, 2014, 11:55:57 PM
What's an 'ur' opinion?
An opinion that isn't mine
I'm not gonna judge the writer based on Green Lantern. Did anybody expect a movie about a guy in a green suit with a magic ring to be Citizen Kane?
Comic book movies are the Big Macs of modern cinema.
My 1st post around here, so please bear with me while I vent a little.
PROMETHEUS was a very watchable movie in certain ways, even though it remains a big disappointment to me on several levels. From an overly-reckless biologist insisting on reaching out to an obviously dangerous 'space cobra'...to an overly-excited, exploding 'Engineer' head...there were plenty of dubious sequences and dialogue along the way to groan at. And one of my main bugbears turned out to be Ridley's decision to turn the otherworldly 'skeletal' remains of his ALIEN 'space jockey' into a tall, bald 'humanoid' that looked like it could have walked off the set of an old 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' episode...
Fair enough, seeing as he decided to go with a storyline about 'humans having the same DNA as their creators' (even though a 100% match was scientifically unlikely)...but I just wish he hadn't chosen to turn H. R. Giger's terrific 'fossilized' remains into an 'Engineer' wearing a 'spacesuit with a snorkel attached'....as I don't think that notion worked out convincingly enough when you compare it to how things looked in ALIEN. On top of that, I was very underwhelmed by the actual way that the 'Engineer's 'snorkel suit' was shown to be attached to him, as the CGI'd 'wraparound appendages' and suddenly elongating 'helmet snorkel' looked laughably shoddy. But we are where we are on all that, which is too bad.
On top of that, I rolled my eyes at the way PROMETHEUS ended with the 'Deacon' appearing and letting out a roar... If the design had been truly terrifying, things might have seemed different...but personally, I thought it was poorly conceived overall. I didn't like the fact that it already seemed so fully-developed (and that goes for ALIEN 3's 'dogburster'/or 'oxburster' too) compared to the likes of the 'chestburster' stage we originally saw in ALIEN - different combination and host and all that I know, but still... And I also reckon it could have been made to look far more menacing if it had been shown to be slowly and deliberately heaving itself out of the 'Engineer's corpse after ripping through, instead of sloppily 'plopping out' onto the floor... And I think it would have looked better if it's skin had been given a more darker, blacker, or greenish black colouration...rather than blue! And I'm also not entirely convinced that it's size would have properly fitted inside the 'Engineer's body to begin with... And on top of all that, if it had been given sharper-looking teeth, it would have looked a bit more intimidating too... All in all, this movie and it's creatures needed a lot more of Giger's involvement overall, as far as I'm concerned.
As far as the forthcoming SEQUEL goes, there's a big part of me that thinks that Lindelof should be FORCED to come up with some kind of answers of his own to most of the loose-ends he left in PROMETHEUS, whether he wants to or not! However, I put the movie's shortcomings firmly on Ridley's shoulders at the end of the day, as he was really the one with the clout and the final say on what was released. And on top of the many mis-judged things that he decided on, I also think he's been bloody-minded about not agreeing to re-edit a longer 'special edition' for the fans...especially since including some of the deleted scenes would go a long way to improving the current version. That's a pity, but I like some of the stuff in PROMETHEUS enough to just re-cut it myself into a 'fan edit' of my own preference eventually...where as well as re-integrating certain deleted scenes, I'd also trim some existing ones.
(*note to self* - remove the shoddy-looking 'wraparound appendages'/'helmet snorkel' shot altogether, so that I can retain the impression that the 'fossilised' remains seen in ALIEN could still possibly be from ANOTHER type of creature that once ended up sitting in a different 'space jockey' seat - possibly having tried to steal a ship and escape from other 'Engineers' before it's eventual demise? Who knows?... ;) )
In the meantime, here's the best version of the movie that I've come across so far, done by a guy called Agent9. I heartily recommend others to seek it out for themselves too, as it includes some of the better deleted scenes, along with a heap of other good editing choices - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEGJFGIPQ7c#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEGJFGIPQ7c#ws)
However, I look forward to whatever storyline PROMETHEUS PARADISE or whatever it's called, has in store eventually. If only because it holds out the possibility of improving on what PROMETHEUS gave us, and possibly tying up some of it's frustratingly underwritten loose-ends. And I just hope Ridley actually directs it too, as I'd like to see more of his particular visual touches onscreen more than anything, despite any shortcomings we may again end up with. Fingers crossed for a satisfying resolution to this story.
Quote from: tmjhur on Mar 25, 2014, 05:27:08 PM
Yeah they totally rushed that. the adult design looks cool and in the making of recently they said that they kept coming back to Carlos Huante's original design so hopefully they'll keep it for the sequel.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.coronacomingattractions.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fnews%2Fprometheus_deacon_concept_art.jpg&hash=a8d68204642d6e387229bf76f44e5557b1e88aa5)
The
lighting on that piece of art is decent. The actual creature design still looks uninspired and generic.
Also gives me bad flashbacks to that weird ye olde comic albino Predalien design...
Quotealbino
ew
EW
and yeah it does.
Ya'll be smoking something bad. That's a good elegant and simple design. :P Man with marfan syndrome + Alien + Beluga whale ftw. :P Such a weird, unique bizarre combo. And so much better than the final Deacon design. :P (And miles ahead of the albino predalien, wtf.)
It could actually be done practically by getting a very thin actor in a suit.
Besides, in the Spaihts draft, that was gonna be the alien that would be "boneless" and be sort of T1000-ish. Pretty unique.
Quote from: BringbackJonesy! on Mar 26, 2014, 12:33:35 AM
In the meantime, here's the best version of the movie that I've come across so far, done by a guy called Agent9. I heartily recommend others to seek it out for themselves too, as it includes some of the better deleted scenes, along with a heap of other good editing choices - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEGJFGIPQ7c#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEGJFGIPQ7c#ws)
I'm now sourcing that cut!
I wanna get my hands on a copy.
March 2016 ffs
Multiple Davids sounds good, i always thought to see more Davids in the first Prometheus, but that was looking at the back of David and the English woman with the horrible accent.
Im all for more Prometheus stuff, i think its a mysterious world that hasnt even come close to revealing its true potential.
But im scared of the times and age we live in, that everything has to be pg13 or made with that fckn cgi stuff.
Its good its coming but im just gonna sit back and watch the ride.
Someone refresh my memory. Did the first film tells us who the Engineers were and what they're backstory was?
It explained that they gave life to some planets in the universe. How many no one knows. But they seeded our planet and they share the same DNA as us. We're them, so to speak.
It also explained that they worshipped this life form, the alien and its DNA, everything about it. When they started worshipping this we don't know. Did they create it? discover it? or mould it from another source? We don't know.
SIDE NOTE: [Due to the xenomorph like pressure suits of the Engineers being fused to their bodies (as seen later in the film) I think this happened after they seeded Earth. They seem to have modified their bodies using this DNA to have these exoskeleton designs. From what I can see that is what has happened.]
Then it explained how the Engineers want to destroy the life on earth as we know it and from that destruction create a hideous wasteland of carnivorous life forms by flooding our planet with this alien DNA. Why? Well that'll be for Prommy 2.
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 26, 2014, 01:26:16 PM
It explained that they gave life to some planets in the universe. How many no one knows. But they seeded our planet and they share the same DNA as us. We're them, so to speak.
It also explained that they worshipped this life form, the alien and its DNA, everything about it. When they started worshipping this we don't know. Did they create it? discover it? or mould it from another source? We don't know.
Due to the xenomorph like pressure suits of the Engineers being fused to their bodies (as seen later in the film) I think this happened after they seeded Earth. They seem to have modified their bodies using this DNA to have these exoskeleton designs. From what I can see that is what has happened.
Then it explained how the Engineers want to destroy the life on earth as we know it and from that destruction create a hideous wasteland of carnivorous life forms by flooding our planet with this alien DNA. Why? Well that'll be for Prommy 2.
In fairness I don't think it "explained" any of that. "Explained" is stretching things a bit.
Like I said; as long as we receive some answers this time.
I'm waiting to see this movie prometheus 2 ;D :D
Quote from: tmjhur on Mar 26, 2014, 02:09:48 PM
In fairness I don't think it "explained" any of that. "Explained" is stretching things a bit.
It explained everything there.
It will be interesting to see how they make Prometheus 2 more in line with ALIEN in terms of terror. Going to the Engineer home world has a lot of possibilities and yet, could come off quite Star Trek in nature if not executed correctly. I would personally like to see their world all but destroyed by the creatures they've made, only pockets of life left.
The above notwithstanding, it's ALL about the script and the DIALOGUE. The beauty of ALIEN is that the characters seemed real, through performance and dialogue. The characters in Prometheus did NOT seem real whatsoever. I could even forgive the ridiculous nonsensical plot points and mishaps if the dialogue and performances had been on par with ALIEN. It failed on most of those fronts.
Why I refuse to write Prometheus off is because I think the film works well in many areas. Atmosphere, design, effects, some places of character (David, Vickers, Weyland). Taken as a whole, it's an entertaining and some times profound film, which, like some one else mentioned, seems more in line with ALIEN then ALIENS, but not a better film (as also mentioned).
I KNOW Fox browses this site. I know our conversations are being viewed from time to time. I hope they take some of the meat of our criticisms to heart so that Prometheus 2 can be what Prometheus should have been.
Quote from: ThisBethesdaSea on Mar 26, 2014, 03:40:59 PM
It will be interesting to see how they make Prometheus 2 more in line with ALIEN in terms of terror. Going to the Engineer home world has a lot of possibilities and yet, could come off quite Star Trek in nature if not executed correctly. I would personally like to see their world all but destroyed by the creatures they've made, only pockets of life left.
The above notwithstanding, it's ALL about the script and the DIALOGUE. The beauty of ALIEN is that the characters seemed real, through performance and dialogue. The characters in Prometheus did NOT seem real whatsoever. I could even forgive the ridiculous nonsensical plot points and mishaps if the dialogue and performances had been on par with ALIEN. It failed on most of those fronts.
I think the shooting style Ridley employed on
Alien (having the actors talk over each other for added tension and frustration,
horror, etc) has long been abandoned. After
Prometheus, I'm not even sure if Ridley considers this new potential franchise to be a horror series at all. I also think he became more enamoured of star power and pretty faces; the naturalistic tone of
Alien won't be back, I'm think.
Please kill Shaw early...please kill Shaw early...please kill Shaw early...
I just might agree with killing off Shaw. I LOVE Noomi Rapace, but her performance was pretty awful. They should've just made her Scandinavian as opposed to British first of all. I didn't really care about her character, nor did I believe her performance.
I thought she was one of the three that were good. :P
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 26, 2014, 01:26:16 PM
It explained that they gave life to some planets in the universe. How many no one knows. But they seeded our planet and they share the same DNA as us. We're them, so to speak.
It also explained that they worshipped this life form, the alien and its DNA, everything about it. When they started worshipping this we don't know. Did they create it? discover it? or mould it from another source? We don't know.
SIDE NOTE: [Due to the xenomorph like pressure suits of the Engineers being fused to their bodies (as seen later in the film) I think this happened after they seeded Earth. They seem to have modified their bodies using this DNA to have these exoskeleton designs. From what I can see that is what has happened.]
Then it explained how the Engineers want to destroy the life on earth as we know it and from that destruction create a hideous wasteland of carnivorous life forms by flooding our planet with this alien DNA. Why? Well that'll be for Prommy 2.
This goes into the idea that I like involving the engineers discovering the alien and becoming obsessed with it. They find the alien too difficult to control so they reverse engineer it to the black goo using the alien DNA. This leads to the engineers discovering the deacon using the black goo they then made the mural to show the steps they took to get to this wonderful creature which is more controllable then the alien. This leads them to create us, who they use as a Petrie dish to create bio weapons using the aliens DNA. To create one must first destroy.
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 26, 2014, 01:26:16 PM
It explained that they gave life to some planets in the universe. How many no one knows. But they seeded our planet and they share the same DNA as us. We're them, so to speak.
It also explained that they worshipped this life form, the alien and its DNA, everything about it. When they started worshipping this we don't know. Did they create it? discover it? or mould it from another source? We don't know.
SIDE NOTE: [Due to the xenomorph like pressure suits of the Engineers being fused to their bodies (as seen later in the film) I think this happened after they seeded Earth. They seem to have modified their bodies using this DNA to have these exoskeleton designs. From what I can see that is what has happened.]
Then it explained how the Engineers want to destroy the life on earth as we know it and from that destruction create a hideous wasteland of carnivorous life forms by flooding our planet with this alien DNA. Why? Well that'll be for Prommy 2.
Scott says very specifically that whether they gave rise to the human race is actually NOT answered in two different places on the commentary, and the viewer can make whatever supposition they want.
True, but sharing the same DNA is pretty evident.
Unless its an astronomical coincidence.
Rapace had one of the worst British accents iv ever heard. By the end of the film she goes back to her regular accent. Don't think they should kill her as that's a bit of a cop out. Push her story back and bring David and his voyage of discovery to the fore front. More fassbender= more better film :s
Quote from: hfeldhaus on Mar 26, 2014, 09:19:25 PM
Rapace had one of the worst British accents iv ever heard. By the end of the film she goes back to her regular accent. Don't think they should kill her as that's a bit of a cop out. Push her story back and bring David and his voyage of discovery to the fore front. More fassbender= more better film :s
yeah this was definitely a weakness
That was supposed to be a British accent?
Quote from: Kimarhi on Mar 26, 2014, 10:32:48 PM
That was supposed to be a British accent?
I think the worst thing in Prometheus was that dream sequence. It was the worst visuals I've ever seen in a Ridley Scott movie not to mention the awful acting.
Yep Dream sequences are f**king woeful the majority of the time, that was next level.
As the sun went down,
I peed in the toilet and
Bubbles made shadows.
More satisfaction
Than Prometheus because
It had direction.
:laugh:
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 26, 2014, 05:52:02 PM
I thought she was one of the three that were good. :P
I agree. There was something about her character that really worked for me, shoddy writing aside.
Prometheus was 85% crap and Im pretty sure that Prometheus 2 will also be crap.
Regardless of that, I will be following this forum and any other source of information like a madman, and I will go and watch the movie first thing.
Because I'm addicted to the Alien universe, and because I have still a small, small, small, small hope that maybe, somehow, they will manage to make a good movie. But I truly doubt it.
And I don't wanna even start to think about that new Blade Runner....
MFW y'all think Aliens was better than Prometheus
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Aspie it is.
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as far as I'm concerned things can only go up from Prometheus 1 so I'm a little more optimistic for the sequel. Also now we won't be subjected to all the convoluted hype Fox fed us about the first one not being a prequel or is it and scott's bullshit rhetoric about it containing the "DNA" of Alien (f**k you Ridley and your Riddles). At least with this one we know what were getting to some degree and as such expectations have been lowered accordingly.
Quote from: Aspie on Mar 27, 2014, 02:51:42 AM
MFW y'all think Aliens was better than Prometheus
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Don't even try bruh.
I think a lot of the disappointment with prometheus comes off as it being advertised at first as a prequel to alien, then at some point it became "well its not directly tied in but it does happen before alien".
I hope in the next film (or two) we go into some of the Alien life form back story, and how the company finds out about it and the engineers. I dont mind the more scifi-sih direction but id like it to go back into being more in line as part of Alien.
Prometheus is an unfinished masterpiece!
it is in the alien universe so at the end of the day, we're all gonna watch it!
in 3d in imax.......
Everyone who think they will visit the engineers homeworld, dont bet on it.
Showing it will ruin the mystery and magic around them, it will cost a lot to show it in good quality, remember the predator world being shown in AVP2 LoL we dont want that really.
The best thing to portrait these worlds are like they did in Prometheus in the dome/pyramid dark gritty and athmospheric,
but dont ever go to there so called homeworld if a director isnt good enough to portrait it.
Rodriquez did a good job at the alien planet and so did Cameron and so did the Ridley in Prometheus, but ffs dont do it like Asgard or SW episode one etc those f**ked up green screen cgi flashing shit.
Quote from: Infected on Mar 27, 2014, 11:39:33 AM
Everyone who think they will visit the engineers homeworld, dont bet on it.
Showing it will ruin the mystery and magic around them, it will cost a lot to show it in good quality, remember the predator world being shown in AVP2 LoL we dont want that really.
The best thing to portrait these worlds are like they did in Prometheus in the dome/pyramid dark gritty and athmospheric,
but dont ever go to there so called homeworld if a director isnt good enough to portrait it.
Rodriquez did a good job at the alien planet and so did Cameron and so did the Ridley in Prometheus, but ffs dont do it like Asgard or SW episode one etc those f**ked up green screen cgi flashing shit.
They've been teasing us for years with the concept of The Planet of The Alien. If they go to the Engineer home world I just want it to be more Giger than Giger. Everything volcanic rock with twisted gnarly trees, landscapes smothered in bio-mechanicisms.
The only problem with showing a home world though is you can only show a small portion of it. Think about how utterly insane and diverse our planet is and then think about designing a new one? I suppose they'd have to go straight to the Engineer civilisation.
Quote from: Xhan on Mar 26, 2014, 07:07:52 PM
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 26, 2014, 01:26:16 PM
It explained that they gave life to some planets in the universe. How many no one knows. But they seeded our planet and they share the same DNA as us. We're them, so to speak.
It also explained that they worshipped this life form, the alien and its DNA, everything about it. When they started worshipping this we don't know. Did they create it? discover it? or mould it from another source? We don't know.
SIDE NOTE: [Due to the xenomorph like pressure suits of the Engineers being fused to their bodies (as seen later in the film) I think this happened after they seeded Earth. They seem to have modified their bodies using this DNA to have these exoskeleton designs. From what I can see that is what has happened.]
Then it explained how the Engineers want to destroy the life on earth as we know it and from that destruction create a hideous wasteland of carnivorous life forms by flooding our planet with this alien DNA. Why? Well that'll be for Prommy 2.
Scott says very specifically that whether they gave rise to the human race is actually NOT answered in two different places on the commentary, and the viewer can make whatever supposition they want.
That's something I'd like to be addressed in the film. If not an outright answer, at least something more to feed our curiosity.
Quote from: Infected on Mar 27, 2014, 11:39:33 AM
Everyone who think they will visit the engineers homeworld, dont bet on it.
Showing it will ruin the mystery and magic around them
They didn't seem hesitant to do the same to the Space Jockey, I don't think they have the same reverence for the material as we do. For Scott and his writers, the series and all of its components is a clay, to be spun out and molded and remolded. I guess that's their rights as artists... (not that we have to like the result.)
In Alien, a guy sticks his face in an hatching egg. In Prometheus, a guy plays with an alien snake. Seems equal to me.
One guy is a truck driver. The other a scientist.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Mar 27, 2014, 05:45:58 PM
One guy is a truck driver. The other a scientist.
A Scientist who is the first to discover life on another planet and is egotistical enough to want to impress Fitfield.
Space-Trucker, Riddles coined the term I think.
Quote from: Aspie on Mar 27, 2014, 05:25:56 PM
In Alien, a guy sticks his face in an hatching egg. In Prometheus, a guy plays with an alien snake. Seems equal to me.
I like how this is the first time ive ever seen this called out
Quote from: Kimarhi on Mar 27, 2014, 05:45:58 PM
One guy is a truck driver. The other a scientist.
And that truck driver, was one with an awesome education, with a medical background.
still not a scientist
Quote from: Kimarhi on Mar 27, 2014, 07:26:21 PM
still not a scientist
And he's the first to discover alien life, egotistical and wanted to impress Fifield.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Mar 27, 2014, 07:26:21 PM
still not a scientist
It's a pleb argument to be honest, the people chosen for the mission weren't the best in their respective fields, the entire mission was a farce, a fools errand.
Quote from: Rong on Mar 27, 2014, 07:30:16 PM
It's a pleb argument to be honest, the people chosen for the mission weren't the best in their respective fields, the entire mission was a farce, a fools errand.
Pleb-level.
They were both foolish moves by the characters. As soon as I saw the eggs had "organic life" within I would've sprinted out of the derelict. The difference between the two characters is that Kane is investigating an egg. A stationary object. While whats his face is deliberately molesting an unknown alien life form. It doesn't matter if he's an average scientist its like telling an average soldier to run around the shooting range with his finger on the trigger with a mag in and his weapon pointed away from the range. Some shit no matter how "average" you are is just known not to do.
By the time the egg opened it was to late for Kane. Meanwhile we don't even know if the snakes would've done anything to whats his face if he would've just left them the f**k alone. They didn't aggressively pursue the rest of the crew when they were investigating his corpse.
On come on guys, it was the 1970's and no one had ever seen the movie "alien" back then. We'd have all stuck our heads in to that egg like thing to take a peek. Doing such a thing after seeing the movie... now that makes you a major f**king Milburn.:P
Kane was also set up to be quite rash. He's the first to volunteer for the expedition. Dallas rolls his eyes, "Of course..."
Millburn couldn't even keep his accent consistent.
Who hasn't put on a southern drawl first thing in the mornng?
Quote from: Aspie on Mar 27, 2014, 05:25:56 PM
In Alien, a guy sticks his face in an hatching egg. In Prometheus, a guy plays with an alien snake. Seems equal to me.
Kane was already curious and exploring everything else. It made sense character-wise for him to check out the egg too.
Millburn had previously ditched the group because he was afraid of a dead alien. Why the hell would he be so eager to play with a living one? It seemed out of character.
Bring it.
"Shooting is apparently scheduled to begin this fall" - Bloody Disgusting (http://bloody-disgusting.com/news/3285697/do-we-really-want-prometheus-2-to-be-more-alien/)
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 28, 2014, 02:47:40 AM
Kane was already curious and exploring everything else. It made sense character-wise for him to check out the egg too.
Millburn had previously ditched the group because he was afraid of a dead alien. Why the hell would he be so eager to play with a living one? It seemed out of character.
Also as a biologist he maybe should've realised that something rearing back, flaring its neck, and hissing at him maybe wasn't "mesmerized".
Quote from: SiL on Mar 28, 2014, 02:51:21 AM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 28, 2014, 02:47:40 AM
Kane was already curious and exploring everything else. It made sense character-wise for him to check out the egg too.
Millburn had previously ditched the group because he was afraid of a dead alien. Why the hell would he be so eager to play with a living one? It seemed out of character.
Also as a biologist he maybe should've realised that something rearing back, flaring its neck, and hissing at him maybe wasn't "mesmerized".
That too.
Almost two years on and you guys really got scarred by that scene.
You must really love it.
Spoiler
I know I do. 8)
It's stupidity defies explanation. We must remember, lest we doom ourselves to repeat it.
It's not that stupid.
Really, its not.
Yeah, it is. Biologist freaked out by the thought of dead aliens tries to man-handle a living snake-like alien that's making just short of every threat behaviour known to man, convinced it's "mesmerized".
There is nothing about that which isn't retarded.
It's very stupid.
It's a living thing that looks like a snake and is flaring which is a possible sign that it feels threatened and is ready to attack. The same way many creatures on earth would give warning signs (elephants, snakes, cats etc.) A biologist wouldn't assume that it's safe to approach a creature he's never studied before.
It's not that bad nor a deal breaker
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 28, 2014, 09:37:28 AM
It's a living thing that looks like a snake and is flaring which is a possible sign that it feels threatened and is ready to attack. The same way many creatures on earth would give warning signs (elephants, snakes, cats etc.) A biologist wouldn't assume that it's safe to approach a creature he's never studied before.
And yet it acts and looks like a snake like you mentioned. Milburn was like...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahsb8QY5luA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahsb8QY5luA)
Quote from: SiL on Mar 28, 2014, 09:30:10 AM
Biologist freaked out by the thought of dead aliens
Is it really stupid for someone to be obsessed with animals yet scarred of giant humanoid corpses of things that he's lead to believe created life on Earth? In comparison a faceless snake thing wouldn't appear to pose much of a threat.
Prometheus was the deepest most visually stunning and intelligent scifi movie of all time. an amazing cast of memorable characters and so much world building... wait universe building, that I could spend my life unraveling its complexity and dreaming of flying through the stars. Some people just dont understand it and its ok, those people will always have adam sandler movies to watch.
Prometheus 2 will change the nature of mankind just as the first one did, and leave an impact as great as Shakespeare combined with the brilliance of Einstien. This series, completely devoid of plotholes has already cemented itself as the pinnacle of science fiction.
What if dinosaurs were aliens? what if CHAIRS are aliens??? The answers are clear for those with the intellect and I expect that our lord and saviour Sir Ridley Scott and genius director Micheal Green will bathe us in more answers... ANSWERS TO THE MEANING OF LIFE ITSELF!!!!!
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 28, 2014, 09:52:08 AM
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 28, 2014, 09:37:28 AM
It's a living thing that looks like a snake and is flaring which is a possible sign that it feels threatened and is ready to attack. The same way many creatures on earth would give warning signs (elephants, snakes, cats etc.) A biologist wouldn't assume that it's safe to approach a creature he's never studied before.
And yet it acts and looks like a snake like you mentioned. Milburn was like...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahsb8QY5luA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahsb8QY5luA)
Quote from: SiL on Mar 28, 2014, 09:30:10 AM
Biologist freaked out by the thought of dead aliens
Is it really stupid for someone to be obsessed with animals yet scarred of giant humanoid corpses of things that he's lead to believe created life on Earth? In comparison a faceless snake thing wouldn't appear to pose much of a threat.
Lol, an unknown living thing instantly poses more of a threat than a corpse.
Also, you know how some snakes are more dangerous than others? Yeah, that. If you're on another planet and see a creature that you've never seen before, you're not going to want to make friends with it unless you've studied it properly and you're quite sure that it won't attack you.
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 28, 2014, 09:59:52 AM
Lol, an unknown living thing instantly poses more of a threat than a corpse.
That is not the point. Milburn is not scarred of animals. The idea of giant humanoid creators, dead or alive, obviously freaked him out.
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 28, 2014, 09:59:52 AM
Also, you know how some snakes are more dangerous than others? Yeah, that. If you're on another planet and see a creature that you've never seen before, you're not going to want to make friends with it unless you've studied it properly and you're quite sure that it won't attack you.
And what if he was to turn and run, some animals give chase. Most animals that have no human contact won't lash out and attack until they understand a human as a threat.
Taken from The Lost World:
[about the Compsognathus]
Dieter: It gives me the creeps, like it's not scared.
Dr. Robert Burke: There haven't been any visitors on this island. There's no reason for it to fear man.Milburn figured he could handle it.
Quote from: SiL on Mar 28, 2014, 02:51:21 AM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 28, 2014, 02:47:40 AM
Kane was already curious and exploring everything else. It made sense character-wise for him to check out the egg too.
Millburn had previously ditched the group because he was afraid of a dead alien. Why the hell would he be so eager to play with a living one? It seemed out of character.
Also as a biologist he maybe should've realised that something rearing back, flaring its neck, and hissing at him maybe wasn't "mesmerized".
Perhaps the hammerpede, being the superior being, was the one doing the mesmerizing? It made Milburn its bitch after all.
Running away from the dead body was totally inexcusable. At least poke the damn thing with a sharp stick. :P
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 28, 2014, 10:08:15 AM
Milburn is not scarred of animals.
He's neither scared, nor has any respect. Nor apparently any knowledge on the subject of animal behaviour.
QuoteAnd what if he was to turn and run, some animals give chase.
That's why you don't turn. Maintain eye contact and back away.
QuoteMost animals that have no human contact won't lash out and attack until they understand a human as a threat.
He was sticking his hand in its face after it made the universal sign for "f**k off". He was giving it every reason to think he was a threat -- as it was to him.
When Forbes ran the movies past a bunch of scientists (http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2012/06/20/5-scientists-share-their-baffled-reactions-on-the-bad-science-in-prometheus/), the animal biologist had this to say:
QuoteThis phallus soon spreads open and seems to display a neck frill. As a biologist, what would that mean to you?
It can be defensive or it can attract mates. Usually it's a threat display. It makes the animal look bigger and more ferocious.
The biologist doesn't back away from the threat display. If you were there, would you reach out and touch the alien or, ya know, try to contain it in some way?
Probably contain it in some way to see what it is. Depends on how big it is, I'd use an actual snake stick, which would clasp it behind the neck and hold it down.
He doesn't do that. He reaches out with a gloved hand, then the alien wraps itself around his arm. He screams for the geologist to get it off of him, and the geologist attacks it. What would you have done?
My goodness. I certainly wouldn't try to kill it or harm it in any way.
Sure, Milburne didn't have a snake stick handy, but the point is pretty clear: don't try to manhandle the unknown God-damn alien monster thingy when it's rearing back and hissing at you.
Audience i saw it with laughed during that scene. Nobody was scared. Ridley said prior to the film coming out that he wanted to scare the shit out of the audience, right?
JOB DONE. :laugh:
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 28, 2014, 09:24:34 AM
It's not that stupid.
Really, its not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZtAtyB6Moo#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZtAtyB6Moo#ws)
Milburn was boss, y'all ain't shit!
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Quote from: SiL on Mar 28, 2014, 10:37:52 AM
He doesn't do that. He reaches out with a gloved hand
Aren't their suits meant to be as strong as chain mail but made from a futuristic synthetic material? Riddles mentioned this somewhere.
Spoiler
My lack of backing up my point doesn't help I know ::)
It was still a stupid thing to do. Wearing a chain mail suit while diving with sharks in open water is a protective measure for the diver but it doesn't mean a shark can't attack you and hurt you, in some cases, severely.
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 28, 2014, 11:38:47 AM
Aren't their suits meant to be as strong as chain mail but made from a futuristic synthetic material? Riddles mentioned this somewhere.
Never addressed in the film.
Quote from: SiL on Mar 28, 2014, 12:09:37 PM
Never addressed in the film.
There is a lot of things films don't address but we accept them.
Example: character's full names.
Full names are irrelevant. A piece of information explaining a character otherwise acting stupidly isn't.
But that information does exist, and although I agree should have been in the film, that doesn't mean you can't apply it to the cut of the film we've got.
You'll sleep better I guarantee it. :-*
If it's not in the movie it's irrelevant. Scott said a lot of things; Prometheus ignored most of them.
And even with chainmail gloves he's an idiot.
Goodnight.
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A very important point was touched upon earlier in this thread in terms of the tone of dialogue. I, for some reason hadn't realized that Prometheus and ALIEN were dealing withe two different sets of people. ALIEN was truckers in space. Prometheus was Scientists and explorers in space. There would certainly be a different kind of camaraderie in each case.
What I wanted from Prometheus was a level of believability. There were moments of it, but most of it wasn't believable. I go to a film like The Europa Report which hosted believable scientists with believable dialogue on an alien planet.
So much of Prometheus fell so short, and so much of it was genius.
I understand people thinking the Milburn thing is silly, and it is, but I think the thing some people don't like to acknowledge is that this is bourn from the same sensibility that showed us Kane looking inside the egg, Brett wandering off on his own going "kitty, kitty". We all knew these acts were utterly stupid didn't we? I get that Milburn is supposed to be a PHD, he shoukd know better... but so should have Captain Dallas before getting into a small vent with an alien that's "as big as a man" has metal teeth and has acid for blood etc. etc. Much of the tension in this genre of films is built by the audience understanding that someone on screen is doing something stupid. It's in the anticipation of 'something nasty about to happen' that fuels that sense of anticipation... the man sticking the stick into the meteor impact (The Blob), Hooper diving in the water to inspect the boat (Jaws), or indeed Kane peering into a big alien egg (Alien). Don't get me wrong, I think Alien is infinetly better at achieving this sense of anticipation/shock than Prometheus does... but still... it's built upon the same principles i.e. eliciting a sense of 'don't do that' in the audience.
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Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 28, 2014, 03:54:09 PM
I understand people thinking the Milburn thing is silly, and it is, but I think the thing some people don't like to acknowledge is that this is bourn from the same sensibility that showed us Kane looking inside the egg
I'm sure we talked abut this before. The egg wasn't leering and hissing at Kane, he was already set up to be the kind of guy who is risk averse, etc. Millburn was shown in one scene to be quite spooked along with Fifield and then he's acting cutesy. If he'd laughed off Fifield's worry in that earlier scene then fair enough.
QuoteBrett wandering off on his own going "kitty, kitty".
Worst thing about that is it's a cliche, not that it was stupid. He was explicitly chasing the cat, not looking into the face of the chestburster.
QuoteI get that Milburn is supposed to be a PHD, he shoukd know better... but so should have Captain Dallas before getting into a small vent with an alien that's "as big as a man" has metal teeth and has acid for blood etc. etc.
Difference is, what choice did Dallas have? He was in quite an uncomfortable position, and he knew it. The audience knew it. It was do-or-potentially-die. Millburn was, in no way, embroiled in the same sort of dilemma.
I think you're generalising, the films both have completely different scenarios and situations. In Dallas' place... I might have done the same thing if I was in his position, since it beats being murdered in my bed... and if was brave brave enough...
I don't think Prometheus is terrible at all but it does have problems, same as Alien 3. Gritting my teeth and trying all sorts of mental gymnastics to excuse it doesn't help. I appreciate the good and hope the bad is recognised enough to be avoided in the future.
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Correct, I still wonder why today people think so little of Alien3 while Prometheus has double the rating and arguably many of the same problems.
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 28, 2014, 04:38:40 PM
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I don't understand why eveyone is so obsessed with what Milburn did and why they think it was stupid. He did one stupid thing and as people have said he was trying to impress Fifiled. He ran away from the dead body because Fifeld did. How could he have not examined the alien snake which would be the first live alien they have ever discovered? Prometheus is a good movie and is intelligent otherwise no one would take the time of day to discuss the movie and try to make a fuss about what happend in the movie. It came out 2 years ago and people are still talking about it, there is no reason for it to get all the hate it receives.
No-one's obsessed about it. It's just the clearest example of something stupid in the movie, when people say "But the characters aren't idiots!".
Quote from: SiL on Mar 28, 2014, 10:05:40 PM
No-one's obsessed about it. It's just the clearest example of something stupid in the movie, when people say "But the characters aren't idiots!".
Yeah more so than Fifield getting lost especially considering Janek still asks where they are when his face is right in front of the map lol.
Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Mar 28, 2014, 10:07:31 PM
Quote from: SiL on Mar 28, 2014, 10:05:40 PM
No-one's obsessed about it. It's just the clearest example of something stupid in the movie, when people say "But the characters aren't idiots!".
Yeah more so than Fifield getting lost especially considering Janek still asks where they are when his face is right in front of the map lol.
Well maybe not obsessed I just dislike when people use some of the stupid choices made in the movie to consider it a bad film. I am not saying everyone does this but many people do and its just not fair when almost every movie has someone making a mistake or doing something stupid its human nature. I know its not human nature to have a map in front of you and have no clue where the people are that are on it but it is mentioned that the storm causes static that puts off the readings of the map.
A lot of people who point out those stupid things still enjoyed the movie. I did. But I'm not gonna let stuff like that slide just because I did like it.
Quote from: SiL on Mar 28, 2014, 10:17:03 PM
A lot of people who point out those stupid things still enjoyed the movie. I did. But I'm not gonna let stuff like that slide just because I did like it.
I'm not saying let it slide I did not like the stupid moves in the movie either, its just some people hate the movie because of them and that annoys me.
*Shrug* They're missing out then I guess.
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I just read that Green wrote "Kings", I liked kings, it was a little shitty in production details, but as far as religious allegories go shit was cash, it had me hooked, I desperately wanted a second season for it.
Quote from: Vickers on Mar 28, 2014, 09:37:28 AM
It's very stupid.
It's a living thing that looks like a snake and is flaring which is a possible sign that it feels threatened and is ready to attack. The same way many creatures on earth would give warning signs (elephants, snakes, cats etc.) A biologist wouldn't assume that it's safe to approach a creature he's never studied before.
If anything, it's stupid that a Biologist ran away from a 2000 year old dead alien body. A large snake is not that dangerous in the kind of situation those two were in. Not too mention the fact that almost anything apart from serious life compromising injury at that point would be a giant win for a space biologist who is discovering a new life form -its enough to make anyone drunk and make less than sober decisions. However, having cut the scene where Milburn finds the OTHER, smaller snake 'Our First Alien' - which perfectly depicts how a biologist would act in a situation like it - that makes the other scene seem a bit odd without thinking it through.
Another thing that I find remarkable, is the way fans speak of 'Scientists' as if they are all not flawed human beings. There are scientists who have zero common sense, Ph.D's that are drug addicts. Doctors who are immoral. Managers who are self-serving. Deli workers that hate meat... Its a silly argument that all scientists behave a certain way. Title doesn't dictate behavior. Behavior doesn't dictate title either. People learn from mistakes by making them and they certainly change put aside their best judgement to impress people or win a nobel prize for interacting with the first giant space snake. It might surprise people to realize that there are very few giant snakes in the world that an expert would be afraid to confront. For instance, there is a very simple way to attack a snake to make it release a person by squeezing behind its neck. Of course... Milburn didn't try that! :)
Scientists are free to be flawed, but maybe they could act like scientists at some point too.
Quote from: CainsSon on Mar 30, 2014, 06:00:42 AM
For instance, there is a very simple way to attack a snake to make it release a person by squeezing behind its neck. Of course... Milburn didn't try that! :)
Something tells me they don't approach it from the front and go all mushy for it when it's clearly saying, "back the f**k off or I'll kill you".
There are these little, trivial things called...safety protocols...that are casually mentioned drilled into the skulls of scientists here and there everywhere they are trained in basket weaving.
Would any human being really think that the snake creature could get to them underneath the safety of a spacesuit?
Quote from: Lemonade on Mar 30, 2014, 07:16:59 PM
Would any human being really think that the snake creature could get to them underneath the safety of a spacesuit?
That's true and the fact that the snake creature had no teeth from what was shown.
Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 28, 2014, 04:35:28 PM
I'm sure we talked abut this before. The egg wasn't leering and hissing at Kane, he was already set up to be the kind of guy who is risk averse, etc. Millburn was shown in one scene to be quite spooked along with Fifield and then he's acting cutesy. If he'd laughed off Fifield's worry in that earlier scene then fair enough.
Worst thing about that is it's a cliche, not that it was stupid. He was explicitly chasing the cat, not looking into the face of the chestburster.
Difference is, what choice did Dallas have? He was in quite an uncomfortable position, and he knew it. The audience knew it. It was do-or-potentially-die. Millburn was, in no way, embroiled in the same sort of dilemma.
I think you're generalising, the films both have completely different scenarios and situations. In Dallas' place... I might have done the same thing if I was in his position, since it beats being murdered in my bed... and if was brave brave enough...
I don't think Prometheus is terrible at all but it does have problems, same as Alien 3. Gritting my teeth and trying all sorts of mental gymnastics to excuse it doesn't help. I appreciate the good and hope the bad is recognised enough to be avoided in the future.
I think you're missing the point... the point being that it's a cinematic device for eliciting tension. That Milburn is a biologist and that Kane is not is largely academic... You're on an alien planet, on an alien ship and your inspecting a big slimy egg with something moving inside... it opens... would you look inside? I would not. You're tracking down an alien through dark dingy corridors. It's already killed one person. Would you seperate from the group to go find that cat? I would not. There is no reason for Dallas to go into the air shaft on his own. It doesn't make sense and is a stupid idea. That he goes into the air shat alone is simply a plot device to create tension. It's not a desicion bourn out of any internal logic... other than perhaps Dallas being under stress or not being very bright.
Nobody is arguing that putting your head over an alien egg is a good idea, or that a space man approaching a small but hostile alien creature is unimaginable, just that there is a balance to these type of scenes and when you make it obvious that the victim is about to be attacked that balance is thrown out and it all becomes far less effective. Tension comes from the unknown and that is why there is a world of difference between the egg scene in Alien and Milburn's brain fart with the hammerpede IMO.
If the creature had its wings furled while Milburn was reaching for it, then Fifield says something and Milburn gets distracted, looks away momentarily, the wings flare out and wham!... would've been much better, and had the same 'don't do that!' tension as the egg scene in Alien.
Quote from: Lemonade on Mar 30, 2014, 07:16:59 PM
Would any human being really think that the snake creature could get to them underneath the safety of a spacesuit?
Would any biologist trained in the handling of animals (biologists handling animals? Perish the thought...) lift their arm above an unfamiliar animal (a threatening gesture) and exposing their midriff (you know, where their stomach, spleen, lungs, heart and other non-essential organs are stored), never mind just reaching out to a creature that looks pretty muscular, à la boa constrictor? I would do my best to put some distance between us until I'm better equipped to handle the situation.
Yes, it took a while for me to write that and for you to read it, but all of that should go through the mind of someone with Millburn's alleged qualifications in a split second and he might have stood a better chance surviving the room. But then, there is a chance that the hammerpede might leave the pool of ooze and go looking for Millburn or Fifield elsewhere in the chamber, but that is for a different conversation.
Didn't bother me at all. There have been quite a few programmes on TV featuring wildly effusive animal experts acting like total twats around dangerous animals. It hardly flies in the face of human nature. I wasn't really expecting Milburn to jump on the nearest chair pull up his skirts and start shrieking like a girl at the sight of a big worm.
Milburn was completely and utterly unrealistic.
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...oh
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 30, 2014, 10:16:02 PM
Nobody is arguing that putting your head over an alien egg is a good idea, or that a space man approaching a small but hostile alien creature is unimaginable, just that there is a balance to these type of scenes and when you make it obvious that the victim is about to be attacked that balance is thrown out and it all becomes far less effective. Tension comes from the unknown and that is why there is a world of difference between the egg scene in Alien and Milburn's brain fart with the hammerpede IMO.
If the creature had its wings furled while Milburn was reaching for it, then Fifield says something and Milburn gets distracted, looks away momentarily, the wings flare out and wham!... would've been much better, and had the same 'don't do that!' tension as the egg scene in Alien.
I think they are saying that... Fellow posters are trying to justify the actions of Kane, Brett etc. in order to critique Prometheus. And I'm not arguing that Prometheus is better than Alien, I don't think for a second it is, I'm arguing that Milburn's actions have little to do with the effectiveness of that scene, because those type of scenes are built around a character doing something they really shouldn't be doing. I'd also point out (as some seem to be forgetting) that Milburn puts an arm out before the millipede acts aggressively.
Quote from: SM on Mar 31, 2014, 02:01:30 AM
Milburn was completely and utterly unrealistic.
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/09/04/Steve_holding_snake_gallery__470x330.jpg
...oh
Irwin wasn't a biologist, let alone one encountering entirely unknown organisms for the first time.
Totally analogous!
Eehhhh....
I heard that they've suddenly changed writers?
Not saying that it wont happen...
The first one happened anyway...
Quote from: SiL on Mar 31, 2014, 06:29:25 AM
Irwin wasn't a biologist, let alone one encountering entirely unknown organisms for the first time.
No, but almost everyone at some time in their lives is given some warnings about encountering animals.
Given the overarching theme of the movie is the hubris of man, I can forgive Milburn he clearly thought he was more then equipped to handle the creature, also the deleted scene shows his eagerness when it comes to alien lifeforms.
I love the way both milburn and fifield were both fashioned as hipsters, a little jab from Ridley, especially the snake in the mouth, and their general demeanour, very deliberate I think.
Quote from: SM on Mar 31, 2014, 02:01:30 AM
Milburn was completely and utterly unrealistic.
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/09/04/Steve_holding_snake_gallery__470x330.jpg
...oh
We know what Irwin's background is when it comes to dangerous animals. I don't recall much being revealed on Milburn's track record in that arena.
Quote from: SM on Mar 31, 2014, 02:01:30 AM
Milburn was completely and utterly unrealistic.
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/09/04/Steve_holding_snake_gallery__470x330.jpg
...oh
Yeah, he is dead too..
Irwin was more familiar with Austrailias animals because he was Australian. Dude came over here and handled a diamondback and was sweating bullets because the diamondback is aggressive and he had no experience with it.
I love that the biggest flaw in Prometheus was the editing yet people just can't get over the Milburn thing.
Spoiler
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Well, yes the editing is a big issue (although there are many other flaws), but there's no denying the Milburn thing is very idiotic. :P
Wait...what?
Oh yes...
Spoiler
I just denied it. :-*
It seems it can be done.
Of course you can deny it but guess what... it's still stupid. :-*
But... but that's what he denied. ):
You can't deny the denial.
Quote from: maledoro on Mar 31, 2014, 12:07:57 PMNo, but almost everyone at some time in their lives is given some warnings about encountering animals.
My point was using Irwin as a reasonable example of how an actual biologist would act is silly.
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 31, 2014, 08:33:22 PM
I love that the biggest flaw in Prometheus was the editing yet people just can't get over the Milburn thing.
Different conversations. We aren't talking about the editing now, we're talking about stupid characters. Bad editing is a whole other ball game. :P
Quote from: SiL on Mar 31, 2014, 06:29:25 AM
Quote from: SM on Mar 31, 2014, 02:01:30 AM
Milburn was completely and utterly unrealistic.
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/09/04/Steve_holding_snake_gallery__470x330.jpg
...oh
Irwin wasn't a biologist, let alone one encountering entirely unknown organisms for the first time.
Totally analogous!
Guy doesn't have a piece of paper - so throw everything else out. Predictable.
Well, yeah. It's like showing a circus lion tamer treats a lion and saying it was totally acceptable for a zoo keeper to run into a lion enclosure with a whip.
And even Steve Irwin wouldn't have been dumb enough to antagonize the Hammerpede like that without knowing what it is.
*wheeeeeee*
*sound of bus running SM over*
We'll send you the bill to have your blood scraped off.
Quote from: SiL on Mar 31, 2014, 11:38:01 PM
We'll send you the bill to have your blood scraped off.
You're all focusing on the specifics. The fact is: Even smart people do stupid things. Even pilots crash planes. They have a orders, guides to follow, protocal, training, yet they still make mistakes because human behavior is flawed. Stating that scientists all act a certain way or should behave a certain way because they are scientists, and therefore always would is totally baseless. Scientists disagree with each others behavior all the damn time. The same is true of any profession.
Do the best musicians all play music the same way? Do the world's top chef always prepare the same meals, identically? Twice the same way?
Even the most talented guitar player can mess up a song they've played a thousand times.
The entire mission is based on the same kind of mistake. You could just as easily argue that scientists would be stupid to track down Aliens on another planet without a military fleet to back them up - but they did. If they didn't make mistakes, there wouldn't be a story to tell.
If you want to split hairs I suppose I would argue that there should have been 10 biologists on hand during that mission but its a movie.
Now, what's most interesting to me about that scene is the fascination Milburn has with Fifield and how that is undermined by the snake and the symbolic way he died.
The pilot doesn't crash his plane because he thinks nose-diving into the ground is a good way to land. The guitar player doesn't mess up because he thinks he's supposed to play a guitar with a pickaxe.
The only people missing the point are those harping on that "People are allowed to do stupid things!". Milburn's actions are stupid for anyone. No normal person is going to stick their hand in a space snake's face and say it's mesmerized when it starts hissing at them. It's compounded by the fact he's an animal biologist and should, presumably, know the least bit about animals. The cherry on top is that ten minutes earlier we saw him wetting himself and running in fear from a perfectly harmless corpse.
His actions are dumb. His actions are even dumber taking into account he's supposed to be a professional who should know better. They become moronic when the film itself establishes him as a f**kin' pansy, and then has him sticking his hand in a hissing space-cobra's face going "Cootchie cootchi coo".
If he had been presented as some kind'a Steve Irwin type, fair enough. If he'd been portrayed as someone overly sure of himself, cool. But he wasn't. The entire scene is just stupidity compounding stupidity.
If people can look past that, more power to them, but sticking fingers in ears going "La la la can't hear you it's totally not that bad" without being able to come up with a single reasonable explanation given the film doesn't make the scene any less dumb.
Ugh. Milburn wasn't panicking. It was Fifield. Milburn just went along because he befriended Fifield.
The thing is, it wasn't an act of stupidity - on behalf of a supposed expert - in isolation. There were a lot of things being done by all of them, which, taken all in one go, kept hitting the audience over the head with how recklessly nonsensical these individuals are. David 8 touching everything in sight, Shaw's other half removing his helmet and contaminating the site, Fifield not having a f**king clue about the status of his own mapping system, etcetera... All of it happens within a relatively short space of time of one another.
It wouldn't have mattered as much if they were just random people, but they're meant to be such leaders in their field (and Milburn, specifically, is meant to have much experience with living organisms and all the scientific protocols of handling them, thereof), that they've been individually head-hunted to go on a potentially one-way trillion-dollar mission of the utmost importance.
Ultimately, we're left with the basic impression that they're all so idiotic that maybe they don't deserve to survive and lose any would-be sympathy for them. The very connection you don't want the audience to lose when it's something as tense as the horror genre.
Prometheus is probably a commentary on modern film!
David wasn't reckless. He was there to do a job for Weyland.
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Apr 01, 2014, 04:22:25 AM
The thing is, it wasn't an act of stupidity - on behalf of a supposed expert - in isolation. There were a lot of things being done by all of them, which, taken all in one go, kept hitting the audience over the head with how recklessly nonsensical these individuals are. David 8 touching everything in sight, Shaw's other half removing his helmet and contaminating the site, Fifield not having a f**king clue about the status of his own mapping system, etcetera... All of it happens within a relatively short space of time of one another.
It wouldn't have mattered as much if they were just random people, but they're meant to be such leaders in their field (and Milburn, specifically, is meant to have much experience with living organisms and all the scientific protocols of handling them, thereof), that they've been individually head-hunted to go on a potentially one-way trillion-dollar mission of the utmost importance.
Ultimately, we're left with the basic impression that they're all so idiotic that maybe they don't deserve to survive and lose any would-be sympathy for them. The very connection you don't want the audience to lose when it's something as tense as the horror genre.
Alien holds its place in time because it's the horror movie without the horror cliches.
Prometheus bathes in them, right down to the "oh noes mysterious biblically improbable series of mechanical failures at the worst opportunity, oh noes supposed badasses doing inexplicably nonsensical things at the worst time." (though i would except David from that for rather apparent end-game reasons)
World's most expensive SyFy movie.
Quote from: Xhan on Apr 01, 2014, 06:58:54 AM
Alien holds its place in time because it's the horror movie without the horror cliches.
Except for all the ones it does have.
And the ones that it invented.
If Prommy 2 has another falling spaceship, I hope we have characters who are smart enough to run off to the side instead of into the shadow of the falling craft.
Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 01, 2014, 12:44:54 PM
If Prommy 2 has another falling spaceship, I hope we have characters who are smart enough to run off to the side instead of into the shadow of the falling craft.
I always figured they couldn't run to the side because of all the falling debris.
I'd take my chances with dodging debris versus being crushed by a spaceship.
Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 01, 2014, 12:50:43 PMI'd take my chances with dodging debris versus being crushed by a spaceship.
Seconded.
Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 01, 2014, 12:50:43 PM
I'd take my chances with dodging debris versus being crushed by a spaceship.
I would too but I think their logic was stay in the shadow of the ship just long enough for most of the large debris to fall then get out of the way. Obviously that all goes to pot.
Considering Shaw had enough sense to do it, I can only assume Vickers was a blooming idiot.
Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 01, 2014, 12:44:54 PM
If Prommy 2 has another falling spaceship, I hope we have characters who are smart enough to run off to the side instead of into the shadow of the falling craft.
Shaw and Vickers
did dash to the left and out of the shadow of the Juggernaut - http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/dominicd_imdb/media/Prometheus_AC_CrashRun_zps359bae41.mp4.html#sthash.cc6s4OLA.dpuf (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/dominicd_imdb/media/Prometheus_AC_CrashRun_zps359bae41.mp4.html#sthash.cc6s4OLA.dpuf)
Even if they didn't, the extreme panic induced by flight or flight does amazing things to your decision making skills. As for the dubious actions of the 'Scientists', well, I don't think it would follow that any respectable, credible Scientist would sign up to a years long journey into space without knowing why, it was a corporate funded farce spear headed by a superstitious megalomaniac... Plus I would think the only way to keep such a mission secret would be to hire people that no one would notice were gone thus if you hired all the best Scientific minds in their field the world would want to know why. Both Fifield and Milburn mock each other as far as their credibility is concerned, "Is that your professional opinion, huh?
Mr. Biology? "I'm ashamed to count you among us, Fifield.", thus it's obvious they weren't the very best at all. Not even Janek had any idea when it came to the holograph mapping display, "I just fly the ship.", the whole thing was set up for disaster.
If you think about all the well funded pseudo-scientific organizations today I liked how the so-called Scientists were betrayed, it works thematically, because if you have some trillionaire nut who funds two Von-Daniken loving pseudo-scientists (one of which has to be schooled on what a 'thesis' is) on the premise of some cave scribbles, you're going to have a bad time. Period. Thus I would automatically assume that who ever would be involved in such an endeavor would be fools from the get go and their outrageous behavior is exactly what I would expect. And they all payed the price.
"...there's no part of David that wants to be a real boy. He is not enamored by humanity or jealous by our ability to experience emotions. He's basically thinking, "
You're morons." - Lindelof
People do stupid shit when their scared. ::)
Spoiler
Tthhhhaaaaattt'sss Prometheus!
I find it odd that not only do some of us have difficulty in accepting that the plot of Prometheus, Alien and Aliens specifically, revolves around people doing incredibly silly things and making stupid decisions (as if space truckers would agree to explore hostile environments to investigate potential alien life forms... why did Burke think his ridiculous idea would work? What military mission would involve leaving the military ship unmanned? Etc), but people are also forgetting that the Prometheus was on a bogus mission. Why employ the best scientists on the face of the Earth when the plan was for David to initiate contact with the 'Gods'? It wasn't a mission to record new life forms or rock formations... It had a singular purpose and that was to enable Weyland to procure a longer life span courtesy of his maker.
Of course this doesn't mean one has to like the film, or believe it to be clever... but I think the more pertinant question would be why can such things be forgiven in other films, but not in Prometheus?
Exactly.
Prometheus is a fine movie! Just needs a special edition edit to clean up some of the weaker points of the movie.
Its still a pretty stupid movie. Why have scientist at all if you are only going to contact the engineers for longer life? David by his lonesome and Weyland could've done the same thing.
Why even give the engineer a chance to wake up in HIS setting either in enviroments he controls? Take that mofo back to earth and negotiate from there when he's by himself. Its silly either way you look at it.
Space Truckers had motivation to do what the company told them to because otherwise that long ass trip they just made away from their family would be useless because they would forfeit their pay.
I think its pretty safe to assume that the Sulaco had some sort of defensive IFF since its 150 years in the future and our own ships will turn a fighter jet to mincemeat if it approaches without the right identifier from ship to air defenses.
And Burkes plan is so stupid it works perfectly initially. He sends people out to confirm Ripley's story and low and behold Ripley's story was true. He f**ked up on the second half of his plan when he tried to infect the survivors.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Apr 01, 2014, 04:15:43 PM
Why have scientist at all if you are only going to contact the engineers for longer life? David by his lonesome and Weyland could've done the same thing.
I assumed hey had no idea what to expect. So they pulled together a crack pot team of scientists each covering different areas of expertise. < I use that term loosely ;)
Quote from: Kimarhi on Apr 01, 2014, 04:15:43 PM
Why even give the engineer a chance to wake up in HIS setting either in enviroments he controls? Take that mofo back to earth and negotiate from there when he's by himself. Its silly either way you look at it.
"I only have a few days of life left in me." - Weyland couldn't wait 4 years, plus he seemed to be quite an impatient guy. There was no time to organise how to get it back to Earth:
1) (again) they had no idea what to expect when heading there.
2) by the time David finds the Engineer the shit hits the fan with everyone else.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Apr 01, 2014, 04:15:43 PM
Space Truckers had motivation to do what the company told them to because otherwise that long ass trip they just made away from their family would be useless because they would forfeit their pay.
Forced into a situation they didn't want to be, much like the crew of the Prometheus.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Apr 01, 2014, 04:15:43 PM
And Burkes plan is so stupid it works perfectly initially.
?
Quote from: Kimarhi on Apr 01, 2014, 04:15:43 PM
He sends people out to confirm Ripley's story and low and behold Ripley's story was true. He f**ked up on the second half of his plan when he tried to infect the survivors.
Agreed.
That was for Darth Vile. He had all pieces of his plan in place. Though why he didn't just have Bishop smuggle the facehugger is silly. But Greed is a believable human characteristic.
Nobody forced the Prometheus crew. Not informed is not forced.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Apr 01, 2014, 04:34:53 PM
Not informed is not forced.
True, but you'd be complaining when faced with...
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Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 01, 2014, 12:44:54 PM
If Prommy 2 has another falling spaceship, I hope we have characters who are smart enough to run off to the side instead of into the shadow of the falling craft.
If Prommy 2 has another falling spaceship, I hope the audience is able to pay enough attention to characters when
they do run off to the side, like they did in Prommy 1.
Yeah, one of two. Why exactly did Vickers not follow suit?
Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 01, 2014, 10:57:30 PM
Yeah, one of two. Why exactly did Vickers not follow suit?
Her and Shaw both did, but the ship leans and rolls to the side slightly chasing them like a giant penny spinning inwards after being dropped on a table.
Love the variety of death in Prometheus. Snake, zombie, sacrifice, spaceship, black goo.
QuoteIts still a pretty stupid movie. Why have scientist at all if you are only going to contact the engineers for longer life? David by his lonesome and Weyland could've done the same thing.
Why even give the engineer a chance to wake up in HIS setting either in enviroments he controls? Take that mofo back to earth and negotiate from there when he's by himself. Its silly either way you look at it.
Assuming they knew exactly what or who they were going to find, which they didn't, and it's tradition to have a bunch of expendables in the Alien universe. Weyland would have known full well far in advance that no credible Scientist would sign up to a years long journey into space without knowing why so he took what he could get. And David was highly skeptical of the whole foolhardy plan from the get-go as you would expect (evident in his doubting of Holloway's 'thesis' and quoting Lawrence, 'There is nothing in the desert and no man needs nothing.') but would serve his Creator nonetheless thus Weyland wanted fellow credulous believers on board, with some extra hands if need be. The corporate funded farce ends in disaster as it should, thus it's not stupid, it's a cautionary tale on hubris and human credulity.
Weyland, again, is a superstitious nut on death's door who wanted to meet his maker, waking up a slumbering God is archetypal and goes back to Babylonian myth; in the Enuma Elis, Abzu is woken by the lesser Gods and so sets out to destroy them, etc.
Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Apr 01, 2014, 10:59:58 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 01, 2014, 10:57:30 PM
Yeah, one of two. Why exactly did Vickers not follow suit?
Her and Shaw both did, but the ship leans and rolls to the side slightly chasing them like a giant penny spinning inwards after being dropped on a table.
It can't be repeated enough, Shaw and Vickers RAN TO THE LEFT - http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/dominicd_imdb/media/Prometheus_AC_CrashRun_zps359bae41.mp4.html#sthash.cc6s4OLA.dpuf (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/dominicd_imdb/media/Prometheus_AC_CrashRun_zps359bae41.mp4.html#sthash.cc6s4OLA.dpuf)
*Feisal rather than Lawrence.
Actually it can be repeated a bunch of times because Vickers looked fore, aft and starboard before deciding to run left. Maybe next time not bother ogling Shaw's butt and more lateral thinking.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Apr 01, 2014, 04:15:43 PM
Its still a pretty stupid movie. Why have scientist at all if you are only going to contact the engineers for longer life? David by his lonesome and Weyland could've done the same thing.
Why even give the engineer a chance to wake up in HIS setting either in enviroments he controls? Take that mofo back to earth and negotiate from there when he's by himself. Its silly either way you look at it.
Space Truckers had motivation to do what the company told them to because otherwise that long ass trip they just made away from their family would be useless because they would forfeit their pay.
I think its pretty safe to assume that the Sulaco had some sort of defensive IFF since its 150 years in the future and our own ships will turn a fighter jet to mincemeat if it approaches without the right identifier from ship to air defenses.
And Burkes plan is so stupid it works perfectly initially. He sends people out to confirm Ripley's story and low and behold Ripley's story was true. He f**ked up on the second half of his plan when he tried to infect the survivors.
No... you're simply making excuses for the other films to assert your position on Prometheus. In a logical universe, "Space Truckers" would be no more contractually obliged to investigate alien signals/life forms than would a trucker in the Mid West of the US be contractually obliged to recover specimens of snakes, poisonous flora and fungi on the way back to the depot. It's fecking stupid. That the only thing they recovered from the planetoid was incubating in Kane's chest, shows how ill prepared/ill equipped they were for such things. Ergo, it's actually an illogical premise. Now if the crew of the Nostromo had been prospectors or a company crew investigating new fuel sources in space... then it would have been much more logical they'd investigate an alien signal... but as you say they were merely "space truckers". And I still maintain that Ash being planted on the Nostromo is the single biggest plot hole in an Alien movie.
That the crew of the Sulaco were stranded on a hostile environment, and all but 3 of them died, shows how feckin stupid a policy of leaving the Sulaco unmanned was... regardless of it being "150 years in the future". But of course, it wasn't designed to be logical, but was merely a convenience to get them stranded. N'est-ce pas?
As for Burke's plan? There wasn't one... What we know of the plan is presented as hasty exposition from Ripley. We don't really see any of it in motion because it doesn't make sense. What was his original plan? Just to locate the derelict by using Newt's dad to investigate? Then what? What exactly was his plan for getting hold of a xeno... given, we assume, that he was trying to defraud the company? Was he always planning to infect the colonists? Was he planning to get the Sulaco to drop him off 'back at his' with a facehugger stuffed down his shorts??? If his final makeshift plan involved killing the entire crew of the Sulaco on the journey home, how would he have the expertise to do that given he was on a military ship, under a military operation? Was he the one whose job it was to put the crew into cryo sleep? Was he able to re-program the computer system to wake him earlier? We certainly didn't see anything in the film to demonstrate that this was possible/feasible? But it really doesn't hold up.
Also - how did Ripley find out that he was planning to kill everyone? Did she pull it out of her ass? Did she read his diary? "Tuesday – kill crew, dispose of bodies and return home". "Wednesday – Get haircut and feed xeno" etc. etc.
The space truckers weren't told to retrieve shit, just to check out any transmission of possible intelligent origin. Which would make sense in a logical universe -- space is big and empty and there aren't a lot of people flying through it. No-one's going to want to pass up the opportunity to make first contact. Bring back specimen was the sinister dubious dickhole Company Special Order, not their contractual agreement.
How is Ash being planted a plot hole?
Burke's plan was simple: Send the colonists out, and if they found something, claim the rights. The end. Then shit happened and the colony was overrun. He didn't need a specimen until the Marines agreed with Ripley's plan to nuke the site from orbit, at which point he decided to try to smuggle some home. Ripley supposes he'll try to kill the Marines, or deal with them somehow.
The novel explains how he'd do it, the film never bothers saying that part was actually his plan; not that he does much to disprove it, and not that it's terribly relevant by that point in the film.
Quote from: Xhan on Apr 02, 2014, 04:22:15 AM
Actually it can be repeated a bunch of times because Vickers looked fore, aft and starboard before deciding to run left. Maybe next time not bother ogling Shaw's butt and more lateral thinking.
Spacesuit ass looks so good though, how could she resist?
Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2014, 11:22:25 AM
The space truckers weren't told to retrieve shit, just to check out any transmission of possible intelligent origin. Which would make sense in a logical universe -- space is big and empty and there aren't a lot of people flying through it. No-one's going to want to pass up the opportunity to make first contact. Bring back specimen was the sinister dubious dickhole Company Special Order, not their contractual agreement.
How is Ash being planted a plot hole?
Burke's plan was simple: Send the colonists out, and if they found something, claim the rights. The end. Then shit happened and the colony was overrun. He didn't need a specimen until the Marines agreed with Ripley's plan to nuke the site from orbit, at which point he decided to try to smuggle some home. Ripley supposes he'll try to kill the Marines, or deal with them somehow.
The novel explains how he'd do it, the film never bothers saying that part was actually his plan; not that he does much to disprove it, and not that it's terribly relevant by that point in the film.
There's no logic in them checking out transmissions... what does "check out" actually mean? It implies finding out who/what is the source of the transmission. A job for truckers??? I don't think so. If we are expected to believe that in the future 'space truckers' can be contracted into investigating the source of alien transmissions, it certainly should be as 'believeable' that a scientist may be a bit of an idiot. The latter certainly seems the most believable to me.
Re. Ash. The inference in the film is that he's onboard the Nostromo covertly. Why would the company put Ash there? It's either...
1) Because the company routinely and surreptitiously replace crew with artificial life forms... which stretches internal logic given the randomness of it without any on screen explanation.
2) That the company put Ash there in order to report on/protect anything coming back from the Nostromo's detour. Which again wouldn't make any sense given the logistics of putting Ash on board prior to the Nostromo leaving dock (wherever that was). If the company had time to supplant Ash, then they surely had the time to send a dedicated crew and vessel instead of the Nostromo.
Re. Aliens and Burke... again it's not logical. Firstly - it's not really believable that a colonist or company employee (Burke) can automatically claim the rights to something found on LV426... that's been terraformed, and presumably owned, by that company. Just because that is what's alluded to in the film (specifically the deleted scene) doesn't make it any more believable. But we'll let that pass to get to the next thing... If Burke sent the colonist purely to check it out, then why wasn't he more explicit in his instructions? Surely whoever put the claim in on Burke's behalf would have to be complicit? Why all the subterfuge on Burke's part? None of that is ever explained... and that's because there's really no logical need for subterfuge other than to create a 'villain' for afterwards.
The conversation should have been:-
Burke: "Hey Simpson - there's possibly a big find, a crashed ship, at coordinates X,Y and Z. However, it could be very dangerous, so find it, take some aerial shots and we'll make a joint claim... 50/50... But whatever you do, do not go inside. We'll leave that for the specialists once we have the rights".
Simpson: "Sounds sensible to me... I don't like taking risks".
But whilst that's the way it may have been in reality... characters are written to behave in ways that fall outside of what we'd deem 'normal' in order to move/shape the story the way the writer sees fit. Burke is made a villain without any 'real' motivation because it supplies a 'reveal' moment similar to the Ash scene in Alien... Milburn is depicted as a bit of a fool because it was easier to place him in that scene (a scientist) rather than one of the pilots or bodyguards, who'd you'd more readily believe would act 'idiotically' (which is probably the simple truth of it). It serves the story in the most convenient way.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Apr 02, 2014, 03:26:12 PM
There's no logic in them checking out transmissions... what does "check out" actually mean? It implies finding out who/what is the source of the transmission. A job for truckers??? I don't think so.
Okay, so your entire argument is "They're space truckers". That's not actually an explanation for why it's illogical.
QuoteIf we are expected to believe that in the future 'space truckers' can be contracted into investigating the source of alien transmissions, it certainly should be as 'believeable' that a scientist may be a bit of an idiot. The latter certainly seems the most believable to me.
They're not at all similar and that comparison is really, really thin.
QuoteRe. Ash. The inference in the film is that he's onboard the Nostromo covertly. Why would the company put Ash there? It's either...
1) Because the company routinely and surreptitiously replace crew with artificial life forms... which stretches internal logic given the randomness of it without any on screen explanation.
2) That the company put Ash there in order to report on/protect anything coming back from the Nostromo's detour. Which again wouldn't make any sense given the logistics of putting Ash on board prior to the Nostromo leaving dock (wherever that was). If the company had time to supplant Ash, then they surely had the time to send a dedicated crew and vessel instead of the Nostromo.
It was pretty obviously the latter, and it does make sense. Rerouting a ship that's already on its way and replacing the science officer is a lot less work than putting together an entire crew and dedicated ship for what might be nothing. There aren't any complicated logistics involved; crew transfers clearly aren't
that uncommon, as Ripley was also put aboard the ship at the same time.
QuoteFirstly - it's not really believable that a colonist or company employee (Burke) can automatically claim the rights to something found on LV426... that's been terraformed, and presumably owned, by that company.
They can, as they're prospectors. The SE makes this clear. The
planet isn't owned by anyone, the colony and AP station are. Anything found
on the planet is up for grabs. The Alien universe never implies that entire planets are owned by corporations.
QuoteBut we'll let that pass to get to the next thing... If Burke sent the colonist purely to check it out, then why wasn't he more explicit in his instructions?
What part did he leave out? "Go check this out" was all they needed to do. Burke didn't even know if there was something there.
QuoteSurely whoever put the claim in on Burke's behalf would have to be complicit? Why all the subterfuge on Burke's part? None of that is ever explained... and that's because there's really no logical need for subterfuge other than to create a 'villain' for afterwards.
The subterfuge only came in after Burke and the Marines got stranded next to a ticking nuclear bomb.
QuoteMilburn is depicted as a bit of a fool because it was easier to place him in that scene (a scientist) rather than one of the pilots or bodyguards, who'd you'd more readily believe would act 'idiotically' (which is probably the simple truth of it). It serves the story in the most convenient way.
Would've been very easy for one of the security guys to be in that scene -- just have him walk off with Fifield. Milburn being there didn't serve the story other than to kill him off.
Quote"Space Truckers" would be no more contractually obliged to investigate alien signals/life forms than would a trucker in the Mid West of the US be contractually obliged to recover specimens of snakes, poisonous flora and fungi on the way back to the depot.
But as the film clealy points out, they ARE contractually obliged.
Quote2) That the company put Ash there in order to report on/protect anything coming back from the Nostromo's detour. Which again wouldn't make any sense given the logistics of putting Ash on board prior to the Nostromo leaving dock (wherever that was). If the company had time to supplant Ash, then they surely had the time to send a dedicated crew and vessel instead of the Nostromo.
Your argument could not be more ridiculous.
QuoteBurke: "Hey Simpson - there's possibly a big find, a crashed ship, at coordinates X,Y and Z. However, it could be very dangerous, so find it, take some aerial shots and we'll make a joint claim... 50/50... But whatever you do, do not go inside. We'll leave that for the specialists once we have the rights".
Simpson: "Sounds sensible to me... I don't like taking risks".
You really need to pay more attention to the films. Burke clearly outlines why this conversation would never have taken place.
For the record, DarthVile, I still agree that leaving the Sulaco unmanned was silly.
More or less silly than leaving a lot of money unmanned in orbit?
More. Space is big and empty, so it's not likely someone's going to happen past and snatch it out of orbit. Presumably, its computers are good enough to keep it up.
And because space is big and empty and someone's not likely to happen past, sending people into a potential combat situation with no backup is purty silly.
Ah, but they haz second magic mote contrl spaceship for teh backups
Which, it turned out, was remarkably easy to make inoperable by the 'rines.
In the military you don't always have backup. I was a lone forcepro in the middle of nowhere Ethiopia where my only companion was a ?Navy Seabee who promptly went to sleep within three minutes of our arrival. Any medevac or CAS would've had to come from another country over to get there and the rest of the forcepro was an hour and thirty minute drive away by landrover. The only thing we had to communicate with was a satellite phone which would've made it useless to do anything but call our TOC with anyways.
The military is kind of always portrayed as being ruthlessly efficient. It has its fill of wtf moments as well. Leaving two guys in the middle of nowhere by themselves with no support is a wtf moment.
I imagine traveling from system to system will be like the old naval voyages of the past. You run into trouble you deal with it the best you can until some other naval boat picks you up. Could be days or weeks later. I would bet that whatever version of MOTHER the Sulaco was using would have pretty sophisticated defense systems. If the USCMC is always operating short hand it would have to. Otherwise there is no way to complete the mission.
Likewise we would've had to just deal with it until help came if something went down. Personally I don't see that as a fault. Our battalion was understrength when we deployed so we were stretched very very thin all over Africa. If the Technical manual is to be believed then the USCMC has 200,000 Marines for the whole Galaxy.....
Quote from: SiL on Apr 01, 2014, 12:32:12 AM
The pilot doesn't crash his plane because he thinks nose-diving into the ground is a good way to land. The guitar player doesn't mess up because he thinks he's supposed to play a guitar with a pickaxe.
The only people missing the point are those harping on that "People are allowed to do stupid things!". Milburn's actions are stupid for anyone. No normal person is going to stick their hand in a space snake's face and say it's mesmerized when it starts hissing at them. It's compounded by the fact he's an animal biologist and should, presumably, know the least bit about animals. The cherry on top is that ten minutes earlier we saw him wetting himself and running in fear from a perfectly harmless corpse.
His actions are dumb. His actions are even dumber taking into account he's supposed to be a professional who should know better. They become moronic when the film itself establishes him as a f**kin' pansy, and then has him sticking his hand in a hissing space-cobra's face going "Cootchie cootchi coo".
If he had been presented as some kind'a Steve Irwin type, fair enough. If he'd been portrayed as someone overly sure of himself, cool. But he wasn't. The entire scene is just stupidity compounding stupidity.
If people can look past that, more power to them, but sticking fingers in ears going "La la la can't hear you it's totally not that bad" without being able to come up with a single reasonable explanation given the film doesn't make the scene any less dumb.
Where in your reading comprehension skills did you find me saying 'It WASN'T dumb?"
Didn't I specifically say, "Yes, it is dumb. But what's dumber, is thinking smart people don't do dumb things?"
I also didn't say people are allowed to do stupid things. I never even said it wasn't stupid. Im saying its silly to assume a scientist wouldn't do something stupid. It makes me think you have some crazy ideal for how scientists behave, and have never known or spoken to people who are involved in research. They are just like everybody else. They do stupid things and make silly mistakes all the time. They drop glasses down the garbage disposal. They miss the bowl when they pee because they didn't get enough coffee.
And for the record: When a guitar player effs up, or a pilot crashes a plane it is ABSOLUTELY and RESEARCHED and DOCUMENTED that they do so because they make a bunch of silly mistakes, like not eating right, not getting enough sleep that night, overlooking some minor detail, or getting distracted by a piece of ass. Even the most objective person in the world is still working against their own subjective impulses and they fail at it sooner or later.
How many people who drive cars, forget to change their oil and fluids or even get enough gas and break down? Or rush to work because they forgot to set their alarms and cause an accident? Do you suppose those people aren't good at driving? That the only people who make glaring behavioral mistakes when driving are those who don't know how to drive? If you want to stats involved, the truth is, the MORE you do something the more likely you are to make mistakes doing it.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2014, 09:14:15 PM
Okay, so your entire argument is "They're space truckers". That's not actually an explanation for why it's illogical.
The logic, or lack of logic, is borne out in the actual film... they all died because they were not equipped or experienced enough to deal with the situation. Ergo it's not a logical policy to expect untrained, unskilled employees to check out alien transmissions. I can't think of a single situation in 'real' life where people hauling cargo, transporting fuel would be expected to do such things. Whereas I CAN name several PHD's, whom I personally know, who are not gifted with common sense.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2014, 09:14:15 PM
They're not at all similar and that comparison is really, really thin.
"Thin" in so much as space truckers having that remit stretches belief and the fact that there are scientists who do silly things. This is about willing suspension of disbelief... and the associated tolerance levels.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2014, 09:14:15 PM
It was pretty obviously the latter, and it does make sense. Rerouting a ship that's already on its way and replacing the science officer is a lot less work than putting together an entire crew and dedicated ship for what might be nothing. There aren't any complicated logistics involved; crew transfers clearly aren't that uncommon, as Ripley was also put aboard the ship at the same time.
So remember the Nostromo was rerouted
after Ash was put on board, not before, right? So how did the company know to put Ash onboard
before the Nostromo picked up an alien transmission? And common sense tells you that (giving the film the benefit of the doubt) if they had previous Intel on alien transmissions, and had the ability/time to get Ash to a location to board the Nostromo, they'd have the ability to get, you know, a 'professional/professionals' out there? Why wouldn't they? What would they lose 48hrs??? Just to send ill equipped, unskilled people out?
Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2014, 09:14:15 PM
They can, as they're prospectors. The SE makes this clear. The planet isn't owned by anyone, the colony and AP station are. Anything found on the planet is up for grabs. The Alien universe never implies that entire planets are owned by corporations.
There's nothing in the film that states that LV426 isn't owned by the company. Weyland are an aggressive, greedy corporate organisation right? They are not terraforming for the love of it. What would be the point of having presence there if not to claim the resources etc?
Why refer to the colonists as "planet engineers", build huge atmosphere processors if it only applies to Hadley's Hope colony?
Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2014, 09:14:15 PM
What part did he leave out? "Go check this out" was all they needed to do. Burke didn't even know if there was something there.
And the point being is that there was no reason why Burke wouldn't have been cautious, or at least used his brain, because if Ripley's story were to be true, the person "checking it out" would be fecked... and he'd be back at square one. It would be a bit like hearing a noise downstairs at night, not knowing if it were an intruder, waking up your wife and asking her to get you a coke from the kitchen.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2014, 09:14:15 PM
The subterfuge only came in after Burke and the Marines got stranded next to a ticking nuclear bomb.
That's not accurate. The subterfuge started when he asked someone to "go check it out" knowing that it was dangerous, and continued when he didn't disclose this information to the company, Ripley or the marines. That information would have probably resulted in a different approach.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2014, 09:14:15 PM
Would've been very easy for one of the security guys to be in that scene -- just have him walk off with Fifield. Milburn being there didn't serve the story other than to kill him off.
Not really because, as it stands, Milburn and Fifields characters had both been established by that point... so it would have been difficult to just force someone else into that situation. I agree though, Scott could have established another character earlier on that wasn't Fifield or Milburn and have them encounter the Hammerpede alone... which could have led to a more scary scene. Remember, I'm not arguing against the notion that the scene could have been made more effective, I'm arguing that it has little to do with how believable Milburn is as a character.
Quote from: SM on Apr 02, 2014, 10:40:33 PM
Quote"Space Truckers" would be no more contractually obliged to investigate alien signals/life forms than would a trucker in the Mid West of the US be contractually obliged to recover specimens of snakes, poisonous flora and fungi on the way back to the depot.
But as the film clealy points out, they ARE contractually obliged.
Quote2) That the company put Ash there in order to report on/protect anything coming back from the Nostromo's detour. Which again wouldn't make any sense given the logistics of putting Ash on board prior to the Nostromo leaving dock (wherever that was). If the company had time to supplant Ash, then they surely had the time to send a dedicated crew and vessel instead of the Nostromo.
Your argument could not be more ridiculous.
QuoteBurke: "Hey Simpson - there's possibly a big find, a crashed ship, at coordinates X,Y and Z. However, it could be very dangerous, so find it, take some aerial shots and we'll make a joint claim... 50/50... But whatever you do, do not go inside. We'll leave that for the specialists once we have the rights".
Simpson: "Sounds sensible to me... I don't like taking risks".
You really need to pay more attention to the films. Burke clearly outlines why this conversation would never have taken place.
If you are going to try and respond, at least engage the brain a little... Prometheus "clearly points out" that Milburn and Fifield get lost. It also establishes that Milburn is a biologist and is happy to try and pet an alien snake. So by your reasoning, that's a perfectly fine because the film establishes the points in question. Fine - case closed then. ::)
Quote from: CainsSon on Apr 03, 2014, 08:08:18 AM
Im saying its silly to assume a scientist wouldn't do something stupid.
It is silly. Which is why no one has ever said that.
As for the mistakes you then list people make, none of them are actually similar to what Milburn does. It's like a car driver seeing he's veering off the road and deciding this is exactly what he should be doing. The problems you list are oversights or problems with people getting complacent, none of which Milburn is shown doing. He's a firefighter looking at an inferno and saying "Oh, it's so bright and warm! I'm going to walk into it."
People are allowed to make mistakes. The problem is Milburn is only ever shown being worse at his job than somebody with no experience. This is what people call bullshit on.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Apr 03, 2014, 09:33:55 AM
The logic, or lack of logic, is borne out in the actual film... they all died because they were not equipped or experienced enough to deal with the situation.
No, they all died because the person who was planted on the ship by the Company to ensure a specimen was returned overruled the person currently in charge of the ship and violated basic quarantine procedure. Ripley was doing
exactly what they should have in that situation under normal circumstances; forced them to stay the hell out of the ship for 24 hours. They had procedures in place to deal with these situations and the Company
actively sought to circumvent them for their own gain.
QuoteSo remember the Nostromo was rerouted after Ash was put on board, not before, right?
I can't remember something that's not actually in the film, no. The exact time the ship was rerouted isn't explicitly stated.
QuoteAnd common sense tells you that (giving the film the benefit of the doubt) if they had previous Intel on alien transmissions, and had the ability/time to get Ash to a location to board the Nostromo, they'd have the ability to get, you know, a 'professional/professionals' out there? Why wouldn't they? What would they lose 48hrs??? Just to send ill equipped, unskilled people out?
Why are you assuming Ash wasn't already at Thedus? Clearly there are Company crew at the fueling stations and getting transferred somewhat regularly as Ripley was also transferred to the Nostromo at the same time.
QuoteThere's nothing in the film that states that LV426 isn't owned by the company.
There's nothing that says it
is, plenty in the SE strongly suggesting it isn't.
QuoteThey are not terraforming for the love of it.
They aren't terraforming, period. It's a colonial outpost. WY provides the tech.
QuoteWhat would be the point of having presence there if not to claim the resources etc?
The craploads of money they charge for their AP stations.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 10:44:00 AM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Apr 03, 2014, 09:33:55 AM
The logic, or lack of logic, is borne out in the actual film... they all died because they were not equipped or experienced enough to deal with the situation.
No, they all died because the person who was planted on the ship by the Company to ensure a specimen was returned overruled the person currently in charge of the ship and violated basic quarantine procedure. Ripley was doing exactly what they should have in that situation under normal circumstances; forced them to stay the hell out of the ship for 24 hours. They had procedures in place to deal with these situations and the Company actively sought to circumvent them for their own gain.
Come to think of it, had someone actually listened to Parker when he was shouting, "Why don't you freeze him?", all their problems would've been prevented :P
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 10:44:00 AM
No, they all died because the person who was planted on the ship by the Company to ensure a specimen was returned overruled the person currently in charge of the ship and violated basic quarantine procedure. Ripley was doing exactly what they should have in that situation under normal circumstances; forced them to stay the hell out of the ship for 24 hours. They had procedures in place to deal with these situations and the Company actively sought to circumvent them for their own gain.
That's pretty much irrelevant. Kane was already incubating the alien. We don't know that the alien's gestation period was shorter than the quarantine period. Ergo, even after quarantine, Kane would have still been brought onto the ship with aforementioned alien embryo inside. Even if they left them in the airlock (which isn't exactly the same as 'quarantine' by any stretch) Kane was still going to end up dead... possibly Dallas and Lambert too. Also, the fact that Ripley was the only one bothered about quarantine procedure and that Dallas, the captain, was not... aptly demonstrates their overall lack of capability to do the job in hand. Not that I blame them... they're just space truckers. ;)
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 10:44:00 AM
I can't remember something that's not actually in the film, no. The exact time the ship was rerouted isn't explicitly stated.
What the film heavily alludes to/implies is that the Nostromo is rerouted whilst the crew are in hypersleep, and that the crew already consists of Ash... Otherwise when they awake, they'd either be surprised by Ash's appearance or not surprised at the Nostromo's position.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 10:44:00 AM
Why are you assuming Ash wasn't already at Thedus? Clearly there are Company crew at the fueling stations and getting transferred somewhat regularly as Ripley was also transferred to the Nostromo at the same time.
What's Thedus? The audience can't be expected to read supplementary material to work out the logic of what's in the film. The film explicitly shows us that Ash is already a member of the crew, even if only a recent addition and the question still remains... how did the company know to put Ash onboard before the alien transmission was picked up? And if they knew about the alien transmission before, why send an ill equipped ship/crew? Of course that's a rhetorical question because we both know the answer... it's simply a convenience to allow for a reveal/shock later on in the story. Once we get to the "Ash is a god damn robot" scene, we are less interested in the internal logic of it.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 10:44:00 AM
There's nothing that says it is, plenty in the SE strongly suggesting it isn't.
They aren't terraforming, period. It's a colonial outpost. WY provides the tech.
The craploads of money they charge for their AP stations.
I'll point you to the dialogue below... It heavily suggests that the colonists work for Weyland. Also, worth noting that the colonists wear uniforms with a 'Weyland' emblazed on them and to the "Building Better Worlds" logo which again implies some level of ownership.
VAN LEUWEN:
There have been people there for over twenty years and they never complained about any hostile organism.RIPLEY:
What do you mean? What people?VAN LEUWEN:
Terraformers, planet engineers. They go in, set up these big atmosphere processors to make the air breathable. Takes decades. It's what we call a shake 'n bake colony.
Thedus is mentioned I the first movie. You don't have to read any supplementary material to know its where they started from. Its even implied that Ripley was newish. This is found out contextually through the dialogue.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Apr 03, 2014, 02:03:20 PM
That's pretty much irrelevant.
It's entirely relevant. You say it doesn't make sense because the crew have no way of dealing with these types of situation, the film clearly shows they do.
QuoteWe don't know that the alien's gestation period was shorter than the quarantine period. Ergo, even after quarantine, Kane would have still been brought onto the ship with aforementioned alien embryo inside.
That's irrelevant as you're now trying to argue the crew should have had quarantine procedures
specifically to deal with something they've never encountered before.
QuoteEven if they left them in the airlock (which isn't exactly the same as 'quarantine' by any stretch) Kane was still going to end up dead... possibly Dallas and Lambert too.
The chest-burster ran from everyone the second it was born. All they would've had to do is open the outer lock and let it run off the ship. Dallas was also armed.
QuoteAlso, the fact that Ripley was the only one bothered about quarantine procedure and that Dallas, the captain, was not... aptly demonstrates their overall lack of capability to do the job in hand.
Dallas was scared and worried for the safety of his crew. Ripley was going by the book and doing what they were supposed to. There's a difference between "capable" and "willing".
QuoteWhat the film heavily alludes to/implies is that the Nostromo is rerouted whilst the crew are in hypersleep,
It really doesn't.
QuoteWhat's Thedus? The audience can't be expected to read supplementary material to work out the logic of what's in the film.
No, but they can be expected to listen to dialogue
in the movie, wherein Dallas plainly states that Ash was replaced two days before they left Thedus with Ash. And that Ripley was swapped for the previous Warrant Officer.
Quotehow did the company know to put Ash onboard before the alien transmission was picked up?
They didn't, they already had the transmission.
QuoteAnd if they knew about the alien transmission before, why send an ill equipped ship/crew?
Same reason Burke did -- they didn't know what was there so they rerouted someone already going near. The Special Order just says to get a "specimen". It doesn't say of what.
QuoteAlso, worth noting that the colonists wear uniforms with a 'Weyland' emblazed on them and to the "Building Better Worlds" logo which again implies some level of ownership.
Implies they're supplying the kit and have stakes in it, yes, implies they own the planet or the entire operation, no.
QuoteVAN LEUWEN: There have been people there for over twenty years and they never complained about any hostile organism.
RIPLEY: What do you mean? What people?
VAN LEUWEN: Terraformers, planet engineers. They go in, set up these big atmosphere processors to make the air breathable. Takes decades. It's what we call a shake 'n bake colony.
And at no point is WY mentioned.
QuoteIf you are going to try and respond, at least engage the brain a little... Prometheus "clearly points out" that Milburn and Fifield get lost. It also establishes that Milburn is a biologist and is happy to try and pet an alien snake. So by your reasoning, that's a perfectly fine because the film establishes the points in question. Fine - case closed then.
What?
If you are going to try and make a point, at least make it vaguely coherent or at the minimum, relevant.
QuoteSo remember the Nostromo was rerouted after Ash was put on board, not before, right?
SO 937 would suggest that the Nostromo was rerouted before. 'Cos the Special Order Ash says 'Nostromo re-routed' (past tense). It implies that someone had arranged for it to be re-routed before leaving Thedus and Ash joining the crew.
QuoteThere's nothing that says it is, plenty in the SE strongly suggesting it isn't.
The colony is a joint venture between the ECA and WY. Deleted dialogue talks about WY getting an advantage with mineral rights because of the joint venture. Any national or corporate ownership of the planet is never mentioned.
QuoteThey aren't terraforming, period. It's a colonial outpost. WY provides the tech.
You've lost me here - what's the AP for if they're not terraforming?
QuoteWe don't know that the alien's gestation period was shorter than the quarantine period.
All things considered - Kane would've likely been dead before quarantine was up.
Quote from: SM on Apr 03, 2014, 09:37:59 PM
You've lost me here - what's the AP for if they're not terraforming?
As in WY didn't go out on its own to terraform the planet. Poorly worded.
Oh right.
And even if they did, that still wouldn't mean they owned the planet.
Yeah. The fact there's a body like the ECA would suggest countries or corporations just can't fly around claiming planets willy nilly.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 09:16:41 PM
It's entirely relevant. You say it doesn't make sense because the crew have no way of dealing with these types of situation, the film clearly shows they do.
They don't... they all die save Ripley and a cat. That Ash facilitates this is irrelevant given that Kane is already 'infected' before Ash gets involved in anything... and that the captain himself isn't even willing to follow/adhere to any safety procedures. They are the epitome of a 'Mickey Mouse' outfit.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 09:16:41 PM
That's irrelevant as you're now trying to argue the crew should have had quarantine procedures specifically to deal with something they've never encountered before.
Isn't that a logical consideration given, you know, their 'contractual obligation' to investigate signs of alien life???
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 09:16:41 PM
The chest-burster ran from everyone the second it was born. All they would've had to do is open the outer lock and let it run off the ship. Dallas was also armed.
That seems a rather big assumption given that this is an alien that has "acid for blood" and has big metal teeth. One would assume that such a "perfect organism" has the ability to aggressively defend itself... even an infant one. It's not like getting rid of a spider stuck in the bath.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 09:16:41 PM
Dallas was scared and worried for the safety of his crew. Ripley was going by the book and doing what they were supposed to. There's a difference between "capable" and "willing".
Well that just sounds like you're trying to justify an irrational action/decision on Dallas' part... which is fine, but at least be willing to apply that reasoning to other films and situations (which is really my entire point).
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 09:16:41 PM
No, but they can be expected to listen to dialogue in the movie, wherein Dallas plainly states that Ash was replaced two days before they left Thedus with Ash. And that Ripley was swapped for the previous Warrant Officer.
Was that specific dialogue in the actual film?
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 09:16:41 PM
They didn't, they already had the transmission.
Was that in the film? If they already had that information circa 6 months previously... then we're back to why send the Nostromo? Again, that the crew ended up dead and they, the company, didn't get their alien specimen further underlines what a hairbrained, nonsensical plan it was... if indeed there was ever a plan.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 09:16:41 PM
Same reason Burke did -- they didn't know what was there so they rerouted someone already going near. The Special Order just says to get a "specimen". It doesn't say of what.
And that explanation suffers from the same gap in logic... So the company actually get their hands on an 'alien transmission'... I repeat, an actual 'alien transmission'... so the company in all its wisdom, and with all its resources at hand, send ill equipped truckers to investigate just for the sake of brevity... even though they go to the trouble of supplanting an android onboard. Why not just send an android rather than an expendable crew?
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 09:16:41 PM
Implies they're supplying the kit and have stakes in it, yes, implies they own the planet or the entire operation, no.
I think it implies much more than that... given everything we're shown on screen.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 09:16:41 PM
And at no point is WY mentioned.
I'm not sure what you're suggesting? You said they weren't terraforming and VL refers to them as 'terraformers'...
Quote from: Darth Vile on Apr 04, 2014, 10:10:06 AM
They don't...
They do. You're arguing there are no systems in place. The film plainly shows there are, and that Dallas' personal feelings and the Company itself work against these systems from being used, let alone effective.
QuoteIsn't that a logical consideration given, you know, their 'contractual obligation' to investigate signs of alien life???
Saying their quarantine procedure should take into account the arbitrary gestation period of an organism no-one knows anything about is illogical. 24 hours is usually a pretty good length of time to see if someone's going to get worse from something.
QuoteThat seems a rather big assumption given that this is an alien that has "acid for blood" and has big metal teeth. One would assume that such a "perfect organism" has the ability to aggressively defend itself... even an infant one. It's not like getting rid of a spider stuck in the bath.
And yet when I watch the movie, it runs away without even trying to fight anyone. They're not stupid.
QuoteWell that just sounds like you're trying to justify an irrational action/decision on Dallas' part... which is fine, but at least be willing to apply that reasoning to other films and situations (which is really my entire point).
Except Dallas and Milburn aren't at all similar. Context is important. Dallas spends the movie acting like a captain and makes a mistake (Which was wisely ignored by the person currently in charge of the ship) that he ends up paying for. The film justifies his actions.
Prometheus doesn't justify Milburn's.
QuoteWas that specific dialogue in the actual film?
Yes. Immediately after Dallas agrees to let Ash keep the face hugger.
QuoteRipley: Did you ever ship out with Ash before?
Dallas: I went out five times with another science officer. They replaced him two days before we left Thedus with Ash. Hmm?
Ripley: I don't trust him.
Dallas: Well, I don't trust anybody.
That's from IMDb, which seems to get the line from the DC. The TC has Dallas pointing out to Ripley she was also recently transferred. It's right there in the film.
QuoteI'm not sure what you're suggesting? You said they weren't terraforming and VL refers to them as 'terraformers'...
I said WY isn't; I clarified above that I meant WY isn't the sole operator of the station. It's a joint operation, not a wholly corporate one.
No version has Dallas' line about Ripley being rotated onto the Nostromo at Thedus, though it was scripted. The line about Ash was in the TC but cut from the DC.
QuoteWas that in the film? If they already had that information circa 6 months previously... then we're back to why send the Nostromo? Again, that the crew ended up dead and they, the company, didn't get their alien specimen further underlines what a hairbrained, nonsensical plan it was... if indeed there was ever a plan.
It was indeed the plan and wasn't nonsensical in the slightest. It made perfect financial sense to obtain a specimen of whatever the warning was about - if indeed there was still anything alive - via the next ship going near that area of space, and make sure you have some insurance on board with a special order to follow. Much cheaper than mounting an expedition, that could amount to nothing. Cameron repeated this in the form of Burke in Aliens. Burke didn't want to make a security situation with the ECA just in case the ship didn't even exist. Whoever issued SO 937 was doing the same thing - they were out for themselves, but weren't dumb enough to put themselves in harms way like Burke did.
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2014, 10:45:10 AM
No version has Dallas' line about Ripley being rotated onto the Nostromo at Thedus, though it was scripted. The line about Ash was in the TC but cut from the DC.
Oh for f**k's sake I've gotta stop doing this! Would've bet money I could remember hearing that line. I need to rewatch the actual film. I've been relying on the script, novel, and redux (Which doesn't have it either) too much.
Point conceded, but still. Film clearly states Ash was swapped out two days prior at Thedus.
Indeed.
I think Riddles cut it from the DC because it was a red flag about Ash.
I think Riddles cut it from the DC because it was two seconds he could easily cut around. There doesn't seem to be a lot of thinking going into what got taken out and what got put in.
Which you'd expect when someone was happy with what they did the first time.
He mentions the red flag on one of his commentaries - so I'm just joining the dots.
I'll give you that if you can explain why in the hell they changed the transmission SFX.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2014, 10:31:47 AM
They do. You're arguing there are no systems in place. The film plainly shows there are, and that Dallas' personal feelings and the Company itself work against these systems from being used, let alone effective.
I wasn't "arguing there are no systems in place"??? I was stating that they were not equipped, in terms of processes and people, to go investigating alien life signs on remote worlds. I think the film, albeit indirectly, supports this in that all the crew end up dead. It's like arguing that the Titantic was equipped to deal with hitting an ice berg.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2014, 10:31:47 AM
Saying their quarantine procedure should take into account the arbitrary gestation period of an organism no-one knows anything about is illogical. 24 hours is usually a pretty good length of time to see if someone's going to get worse from something.
Again you seem to be purposely misquoting. I didn't state any such thing... I alluded to the notion that describing a locked door on an airlock as being a 'quarantine process' was an overly generous description... and that perhaps a ship expected to check out alien life (it was in their contract remember) should have had a more robust and mature process for dealing with any dangerous life forms or infections.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2014, 10:31:47 AM
And yet when I watch the movie, it runs away without even trying to fight anyone. They're not stupid.
It runs away of its own volition. Who knows what it would have done if cornered.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2014, 10:31:47 AM
Except Dallas and Milburn aren't at all similar. Context is important. Dallas spends the movie acting like a captain and makes a mistake (Which was wisely ignored by the person currently in charge of the ship) that he ends up paying for. The film justifies his actions. Prometheus doesn't justify Milburn's.
Completely disagree. Dallas is a shit captain.
1) He accepts a mission to a hostile environment not even questioning why they should be taking part in it or asking himself if they are capable.
2) He puts an away team in place consisting of both the captain and 2nd officer.
3) He should have returned to the Nostromo as soon as he lost communications with the Nostromo when approaching the derelict... Never proceed without comms.
4) He contravenes the supposed 'quarantine processes' and puts the entire crew in jeopardy. Everyone dies because of him not taking command and not following procedure that a child could follow.
5) He sends himself, the most senior officer, into the vent alone (when it would have easily taken two... which would have been at least a little safer) to trap the alien. Dallas was an idiot...
I think you are actually conflating 'tone' with character behaviour. I think Dallas is at least equally as stupid, but his stupidity is presented within the cointext of a darker, much scary/serious film. The tone of Prometheus is much more directed to under 18's and is not really a 'horror' film - IMHO.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2014, 10:31:47 AM
Yes. Immediately after Dallas agrees to let Ash keep the face hugger.
I asked if it was "specific dialogue" from the film because I knew the part about Ripley was from the script... and even with script exerts, I don't think there's anything to establish why the company would chose the option of planting Ash on a tug ship rather than sending a dedicated crew/ship.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2014, 10:31:47 AM
I said WY isn't; I clarified above that I meant WY isn't the sole operator of the station. It's a joint operation, not a wholly corporate one.
The point stands... I don't care if Weyland owns 40% and Burger King the rest, someone (be it solely or in partnership) had dibs over the planets and its resources... one assumes someone couldn't just roll up and plant a flag when it had been terraformed... hence in the SE where Lydecker asks "if the claim will be honoured".
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2014, 11:23:18 AM
I'll give you that if you can explain why in the hell they changed the transmission SFX.
f**k knows.
QuoteI was stating that they were not equipped, in terms of processes and people, to go investigating alien life signs on remote worlds.
Yes they were. They're contractually obliged to investigate transmissions indicating intelligent origin and have quarantine procedures. Ash and Dallas just circumvented them.
Quote5) He sends himself, the most senior officer, into the vent alone (when it would have easily taken two... which would have been at least a little safer) to trap the alien. Dallas was an idiot...
That just makes him human. An attempt at atonement.
QuoteI asked if it was "specific dialogue" from the film because I knew the part about Ripley was from the script... and even with script exerts, I don't think there's anything to establish why the company would chose the option of planting Ash on a tug ship rather than sending a dedicated crew/ship.
Then you're simply more interested in your own opinions than the reality of the story. Company obtains transmission (how may soon become clearer), deciphers it, reprogram the next ship going near that area of space to make it look like the ship picked it up by accident just in case there's anything of value, puts minder on board in the form of Ash.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Apr 04, 2014, 01:50:28 PM
It runs away of its own volition. Who knows what it would have done if cornered.
They wouldn't corner it, they'd open the door.
Quote1) He accepts a mission to a hostile environment not even questioning why they should be taking part in it or asking himself if they are capable.
He's following his contractual obligation under threat of he and his
entire crew forfeiting
all of their money. Again, context.
Quote2) He puts an away team in place consisting of both the captain and 2nd officer.
Leaving the third officer and engineering staff aboard the ship to have it still flight capable.
QuoteEveryone dies because of him not taking command and not following procedure that a child could follow.
A child would want to get the icky space monster cut off their friend's face as quickly as possible so it didn't hurt them. As would most compassionate people.
QuoteI think you are actually conflating 'tone' with character behaviour. I think Dallas is at least equally as stupid, but his stupidity is presented within the cointext of a darker, much scary/serious film.
Everything he did can be explained in terms of character. He's consistent the whole way through: He cares about his crew to the point he f**ks up, he won't let them endanger themselves later, he goes alone into the vent to atone. On top of that, arguably the "dumbest" thing he did -- get Kane back on the ship -- is
exactly what most people would try to do in that situation. If it hadn't been for Ash opening the door, Ripley would've done her job and kept them out.
QuoteThe point stands... I don't care if Weyland owns 40% and Burger King the rest, someone (be it solely or in partnership) had dibs over the planets and its resources... one assumes someone couldn't just roll up and plant a flag when it had been terraformed... hence in the SE where Lydecker asks "if the claim will be honoured".
To which the response is "yes", demonstrating how much it doesn't matter what you think when the film points out you're wrong.
Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 03, 2014, 01:27:06 PM
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 10:44:00 AM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Apr 03, 2014, 09:33:55 AM
The logic, or lack of logic, is borne out in the actual film... they all died because they were not equipped or experienced enough to deal with the situation.
No, they all died because the person who was planted on the ship by the Company to ensure a specimen was returned overruled the person currently in charge of the ship and violated basic quarantine procedure. Ripley was doing exactly what they should have in that situation under normal circumstances; forced them to stay the hell out of the ship for 24 hours. They had procedures in place to deal with these situations and the Company actively sought to circumvent them for their own gain.
Come to think of it, had someone actually listened to Parker when he shouting, "Why don't you freeze him?", all their problems would've been prevented :P
Rule three of headbite club is "ignore the back dude's insanely competent advice"
Quote from: Xhan on Apr 04, 2014, 11:56:42 PMRule three of headbite club is "ignore the back dude's insanely competent advice"
Rule four of headbite club is "after ignoring the black dude's advice, take the black dude's advice".
Quote from: Xhan on Apr 04, 2014, 11:56:42 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 03, 2014, 01:27:06 PM
Quote from: SiL on Apr 03, 2014, 10:44:00 AM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Apr 03, 2014, 09:33:55 AM
The logic, or lack of logic, is borne out in the actual film... they all died because they were not equipped or experienced enough to deal with the situation.
No, they all died because the person who was planted on the ship by the Company to ensure a specimen was returned overruled the person currently in charge of the ship and violated basic quarantine procedure. Ripley was doing exactly what they should have in that situation under normal circumstances; forced them to stay the hell out of the ship for 24 hours. They had procedures in place to deal with these situations and the Company actively sought to circumvent them for their own gain.
Come to think of it, had someone actually listened to Parker when he shouting, "Why don't you freeze him?", all their problems would've been prevented :P
Rule three of headbite club is "ignore the back dude's insanely competent advice"
Haha, yup. Dat story advancement...
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2014, 09:18:40 PM
Yes they were. They're contractually obliged to investigate transmissions indicating intelligent origin and have quarantine procedures. Ash and Dallas just circumvented them.
Then the quarantine procedures are nil and void if the most senior person on the ship chooses to "circumvent them".
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2014, 09:18:40 PM
That just makes him human. An attempt at atonement.
You're projecting... Besides – are you now stating that characters making stupid decisions/mistakes makes them more "human"? Yep – I'd agree... and I apply that principle to other films too, where applicable.
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2014, 09:18:40 PM
Then you're simply more interested in your own opinions than the reality of the story. Company obtains transmission (how may soon become clearer), deciphers it, reprogram the next ship going near that area of space to make it look like the ship picked it up by accident just in case there's anything of value, puts minder on board in the form of Ash.
That's an odd reply? You stated something like "the filmmakers should expect audiences to listen to the dialogue" and then proceeded to quote from a script with dialogue not used in the film. I was trying to politely point out that you were using inaccurate quotes...
I'd also ask where in the film it's stated that the Nostromo wasn't rerouted when it picked up the alien transmissions??? That is not only not stated, it's not even implied. What would make more sense is that the Nostromo picked up the transmissions, rereouted and woke up the crew (that's what the actual film implies). Ash being a company man, and android, then communicated with 'the company' and they gave him his special order. However, this then creates the gap about why Ash was on board in the first place.
The problem with your explanation is you're forced to concoct a conspiracy theory involving the company... 'they already new about the alien transmissions'... to explain the shortfalls in logic. Perhaps that explanaition is better than what's in the actual film... but it's the actual film we're debating. :)
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2014, 10:22:54 PMThey wouldn't corner it, they'd open the door.
Again it's an assumption on your part. The door was closed. Who knows what the alien would have done without an immediate point of escape. Perhaps it would have died of fright; perhaps it would have ripped their throats out. Who knows??? I'm simply stating that we can only guess at what would have happened if the alien burst out of Kane in the airlock ... whereas you seem to think it's a given...
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2014, 10:22:54 PMHe's following his contractual obligation under threat of he and his entire crew forfeiting all of their money. Again context.
Just paraphrasing dialogue ad infinitum doesn't make it any more believable that space truckers would be contractually obliged to check out alien transmissions... especially when they are shown to be clearly working outside of their capabilities. That dialogue doesn't really provide the 'context' of which you speak. Context still has to reflect internal logic (the internal logic of a lifeboat that doesn't even accommodate 50% of the crew???). Context is, for example, the scenes showing Lambert as an emotionally wrung out person prior to her death scene. The 'context' explains her irrational behaviour of looking like a rabbit caught in headlights when confronted by the alien... not wanting to show you how to suck eggs by the way.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2014, 10:22:54 PMLeaving the third officer and engineering staff aboard the ship to have it still flight capable.
I'm not sure that's the point is it??? For all we know everyone had the ability to pilot the ship. The point is that I don't believe it would be normal behaviour, nor sensible, to take your 2 most experienced officers away from the ship. That's not standard maritime behaviour, why should it be standard in space?
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2014, 10:22:54 PMA child would want to get the icky space monster cut off their friend's face as quickly as possible so it didn't hurt them. As would most compassionate people.
No... I think most people would recognise that if there's something outside that could jeopardise the entire ship and crew... you'd leave it outside until you believed it safe. That the 3rd officer respected this, and that she survived, just shows how stupid/incompetent Dallas was.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2014, 10:22:54 PMEverything he did can be explained in terms of character. He's consistent the whole way through: He cares about his crew to the point he f**ks up, he won't let them endanger themselves later, he goes alone into the vent to atone. On top of that, arguably the "dumbest" thing he did -- get Kane back on the ship -- is exactly what most people would try to do in that situation. If it hadn't been for Ash opening the door, Ripley would've done her job and kept them out.
Yes – consistent like Fifield and Milburn. Dallas doesn't make one sensible choice or decision in the entire film? Even with Ash opening the airlock, Dallas should have said "no we still need to follow quarantine procedures". His direct actions, his failure to follow protocol, resulted in the deaths of the crew. Yes – this can be explained by stating he wasn't very good. Maybe he was an inexperienced captain? But you're excusing his actions just like you accuse others of excusing Ffierld and Milburn's. That doesn't seem a consistent critique on your part... and sometimes it can be harder to critique the films we like... wouldn't you say?
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2014, 10:22:54 PM
To which the response is "yes", demonstrating how much it doesn't matter what you think when the film points out you're wrong.
The contention isn't about what the implication or inference is, but rather about the logic of it... I thought that was part of your beef with Prometheus? Is 'if it's in the movie then its ok' a suitable defence for every such gripe now?
QuoteThen the quarantine procedures are nil and void if the most senior person on the ship chooses to "circumvent them".
Ripley was senior officer, and she chose to abide by them.
QuoteYou're projecting... Besides – are you now stating that characters making stupid decisions/mistakes makes them more "human"? Yep – I'd agree... and I apply that principle to other films too, where applicable.
Sure, if you want to cherry pick and ignore context. Go right ahead.
QuoteYou stated something like "the filmmakers should expect audiences to listen to the dialogue" and then proceeded to quote from a script with dialogue not used in the film.
Nope.
QuoteI'd also ask where in the film it's stated that the Nostromo wasn't rerouted when it picked up the alien transmissions??? That is not only not stated, it's not even implied. What would make more sense is that the Nostromo picked up the transmissions, rereouted and woke up the crew (that's what the actual film implies). Ash being a company man, and android, then communicated with 'the company' and they gave him his special order. However, this then creates the gap about why Ash was on board in the first place.
The problem with your explanation is you're forced to concoct a conspiracy theory involving the company... 'they already new about the alien transmissions'... to explain the shortfalls in logic. Perhaps that explanaition is better than what's in the actual film... but it's the actual film we're debating.
Nope. The
actual film has the Special Order that says 'Nostromo re-routed [past tense] to new co-ordinates'. The Company knew about the transmission and put Ash on board to ensure anything of value was returned - even if it killed the crew. Ripley repeats this at the enquiry in Aliens. "We set down there on Company orders". The crew just thought Mother picked the signal up by accident, meaning they were obliged to check it out as per their contract.
Quote from: SM on Apr 07, 2014, 12:29:28 PM
Ripley was senior officer, and she chose to abide by them.
And your point being?
Quote from: SM on Apr 07, 2014, 12:29:28 PM
Sure, if you want to cherry pick and ignore context. Go right ahead.
Again I'm not sure as to the point that you're making. That 'context' can apply to anything and everything within a given film? Because that's not my notion of 'context' within a story or film.
Quote from: SM on Apr 07, 2014, 12:29:28 PM
Nope.
Ok – whatever.
Quote from: SM on Apr 07, 2014, 12:29:28 PM
Nope. The actual film has the Special Order that says 'Nostromo re-routed [past tense] to new co-ordinates'. The Company knew about the transmission and put Ash on board to ensure anything of value was returned - even if it killed the crew. Ripley repeats this at the enquiry in Aliens. "We set down there on Company orders". The crew just thought Mother picked the signal up by accident, meaning they were obliged to check it out as per their contract.
The Nostromo being "rerouted" is the correct use of the verb ... "rerouted" as in an action that took place in the past, as opposed to 'rerouting' an action taking place in the present or future tense. The use of the correct verb has absolutely nothing to do with whether the ship was rerouted before or after the Nostromo picked up the alien transmission. If, as you're trying to state, that the crew were actually rerouted prior to the transmission then why didn't any of the navigation crew question the original coordinates they received the transmission from? Surely someone would have said "where and when did we pick this transmission up?". This would have told them that something was wrong. Namely... that they were rerouted illegally? And then why would it be easier to get a trained medical android out to some backwater service station in space, to board the Nostromo, rather than send out a proper expedition? Why not just send Ash? Can't ships be piloted by a single android in the future? Again, the question is a rhetorical one because the narrative shouldn't require the viewer to make up their own explanations to counter the logic gaps e.g. "oh the company always knew about the signal and they just wilfully and purposely sent a random ship of ill prepared/ill equipped space truckers, because they thought it better to do it surreptitiously and risk coming away with nothing, rather than to generate unwanted attention from industrial competitors by sending an appropriate ship containing crew of scientists" etc. etc.
They weren't rerouted illegally. ITS IN THEIR MOTHERf**kING CONTRACT. They didn't have to set down on the planet if they didn't want to. But they wouldn't have made any money either.
They sent the Nostromo because it was the closest company vessel in the area. It takes 10 months to get to Acheron from Earth. Had they bothered to put together another billion dollar company research mission like Prometheus, some other company with its truckersmustinvestigatestrangetransmissions clause might jump the area they were trying to search.
Outside information certainly helps fill in the logic gaps for stories that last days but are told in hours. I would be curious to understand how Shaw/whats his face found out about an alien solar system by a cave drawing in an infinite universe. I mean those cavemen painting for the engineer had to get those measurements exactly right for scientist hundreds of years in the future to get exact mathematical measurements for navigation........
Every movie has logic gaps.
QuoteAnd your point being?
My point was countering your erroneous point about the senior officer wanting to countermand quarantine.
QuoteAgain I'm not sure as to the point that you're making. That 'context' can apply to anything and everything within a given film? Because that's not my notion of 'context' within a story or film.
The point is nothing exists in a bubble. Actions have repurcussions and influence future actions. Dallas is way more realistic - evne with the mistakes he makes, than Milburn who runs a mile from dead bodies (wouldn't a biologist be a little bit interested?), but make goo-goo eyes and new alien lifeforms (and the hammerpede scene doesn't even bug my in the slightest - but I can see why people would criticise it).
Quote. If, as you're trying to state, that the crew were actually rerouted prior to the transmission then why didn't any of the navigation crew question the original coordinates they received the transmission from? Surely someone would have said "where and when did we pick this transmission up?". This would have told them that something was wrong. Namely... that they were rerouted illegally?
Why would anyone suspect that? Dallas interrogated Mother - she said she'd picked up a transmission and got them up to check it out. "He just runs the ship". Was he supposed to be omnipotent or something?
QuoteAnd then why would it be easier to get a trained medical android out to some backwater service station in space, to board the Nostromo, rather than send out a proper expedition?
Simple answer is that Ash was already at Thedus. Why try and make up stuff to complicate things?
QuoteWhy not just send Ash? Can't ships be piloted by a single android in the future
Same reason they didn't send a specific expedition. Cost/ potential security implications.
QuoteAgain, the question is a rhetorical one because the narrative shouldn't require the viewer to make up their own explanations to counter the logic gaps e.g. "oh the company always knew about the signal and they just wilfully and purposely sent a random ship of ill prepared/ill equipped space truckers, because they thought it better to do it surreptitiously and risk coming away with nothing, rather than to generate unwanted attention from industrial competitors by sending an appropriate ship containing crew of scientists" etc. etc.
You'd have a point if this was in fact, the case.
However it's not. Anyone paying attention is perfectly capable of joining the dots. It's really very straightforward. And is reinforced by the events in Aliens and Alien3. Again, I don't know why anyone would want to try and complicate something to frightfully simple.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Apr 07, 2014, 02:38:52 PM
Quote from: SM on Apr 07, 2014, 12:29:28 PM
Ripley was senior officer, and she chose to abide by them.
And your point being?
Dallas' seniority didn't count for jack while he was in the lock. The person whose seniority
did matter followed protocol. What Dallas ordered was irrelevant because he wasn't in charge.
QuoteAgain it's an assumption on your part. The door was closed. Who knows what the alien would have done without an immediate point of escape. Perhaps it would have died of fright; perhaps it would have ripped their throats out. Who knows??? I'm simply stating that we can only guess at what would have happened if the alien burst out of Kane in the airlock ... whereas you seem to think it's a given...
Uh, you're the one who was saying it was such a certainty that the thing would attack and kill them that it rendered the quarantine procedure moot.
QuoteJust paraphrasing dialogue ad infinitum doesn't make it any more believable that space truckers would be contractually obliged to check out alien transmissions...especially when they are shown to be clearly working outside of their capabilities. That dialogue doesn't really provide the 'context' of which you speak. Context still has to reflect internal logic (the internal logic of a lifeboat that doesn't even accommodate 50% of the crew???). Context is, for example, the scenes showing Lambert as an emotionally wrung out person prior to her death scene. The 'context' explains her irrational behaviour of looking like a rabbit caught in headlights when confronted by the alien...
How about we look back at the point you made that I was actually responding to. You said Dallas was stupid/incompetent because:
Quote1) He accepts a mission to a hostile environment not even questioning why they should be taking part in it or asking himself if they are capable.
He doesn't have a choice. The end. If he doesn't go, the Company withholds all of their money, and everyone likely loses their job for breaching their contract. He'd be stupid to
ignore the order.
QuoteNo... I think most people would recognise that if there's something outside that could jeopardise the entire ship and crew... you'd leave it outside until you believed it safe.
Horseshit. If your friend had a face-sucking alien strapped to his face you wouldn't stand outside a hospital saying "Yeah, no, it's cool, we'll just let him rape you until your procedures say you can try to save his life". If someone you were responsible for was in a car accident and you were told you couldn't call for an ambulance for at least a day afterwards, would you listen? Not unless you're a completely heartless arsehole. Which Dallas wasn't.
QuoteCan't ships be piloted by a single android in the future
By
Aliens, yes. By
Alien, no, they're still being run by full crews.
This when argument should stop. It's clogging up space and no one reads the posts except for the participants.
No one else is contributing anything relevant to the topic, so it's not really clogging up anything.
I cannot take a lemonade nic serious.
...that cool refreshing drink.
If a lemonade told me to do something I'd be like, why don't you go jump in a glass with ice and make yourself useful while I mow the yard.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Apr 08, 2014, 05:40:56 AM
If a lemonade told me to do something I'd be like, why don't you go jump in a glass with ice and make yourself useful while I mow the yard.
:laugh:
Quote from: SM on Apr 07, 2014, 10:15:45 PM
My point was countering your erroneous point about the senior officer wanting to countermand quarantine.
I'm not sure that it was 'erroneous point' when it was in response to a misjudged attempt at arguing that the Nostromo had a rigorous/robust process for investigating alien transmissions??? A single locked door does not constitute a rigorous quarantine process. And a captain who is prepared to circumnavigate that aforementioned 'sticky tape and glue' procedure cannot, in any seriousness, be deemed 'well equipped'. That one attempts to explain away these logic gaps/conveniences and contrivances in Alien (or in any film one values), but to then readily critique such things in Prometheus is the point I'm trying to make. One has to apply the same measure to both films in order to view it as objectively as possible.
Quote from: SM on Apr 07, 2014, 10:15:45 PM
The point is nothing exists in a bubble. Actions have repurcussions and influence future actions. Dallas is way more realistic - evne with the mistakes he makes, than Milburn who runs a mile from dead bodies (wouldn't a biologist be a little bit interested?), but make goo-goo eyes and new alien lifeforms (and the hammerpede scene doesn't even bug my in the slightest - but I can see why people would criticise it).
As I pointed out before, I think you're conflating 'tone' with 'character' and/or 'character behaviour'. Alien appears more 'realistic' not because of any innate acting skill of the actors involved or dialogue per se, but because of the approach that Scott chooses to take. Alien has a much more 'natural' approach in terms of lighting, camera set up, dialogue. Prometheus is much more based in 'fantasy' and its style is much more a 'hyper-reality' one - in terms of dialogue, lighting etc. etc. It's an aesthetic choice on the filmmaker's part... and is not a consequence of a lack of technical application. It's like comparing the behaviour of the characters in 2001:ASO to Star Trek when they are both trying to achieve completely different things.
Quote from: SM on Apr 07, 2014, 10:15:45 PM
Why would anyone suspect that? Dallas interrogated Mother - she said she'd picked up a transmission and got them up to check it out. "He just runs the ship". Was he supposed to be omnipotent or something?
I'd expect any captain, pilot or navigator to check/confirm at which point on their course they picked up a transmission/distress beacon. It's part of the detail that lends to more believability.
Quote from: SM on Apr 07, 2014, 10:15:45 PM
Simple answer is that Ash was already at Thedus. Why try and make up stuff to complicate things?
Same reason they didn't send a specific expedition. Cost/ potential security implications.
But there you go trying to justify things that are not in the film... Why would it be more costly when it obviously cost them the Nostromo and all its cargo anyway (that's what happens when you don;t send the right people for the right job)? What were the security issues (I've never heard of those??? Why not send Ash on his own if he was already in the vicinity? Why did he have to pretend to be... 1) Human? 2) A science officer crewmember of Nostromo?
Quote from: SM on Apr 07, 2014, 10:15:45 PM
You'd have a point if this was in fact, the case.
However it's not. Anyone paying attention is perfectly capable of joining the dots. It's really very straightforward. And is reinforced by the events in Aliens and Alien3. Again, I don't know why anyone would want to try and complicate something to frightfully simple.
But that's what you're alluding to isn't it? That complicated explanation for the company's rationale when that rationale is not borne out of any disenable logic presented in the film? That you accept it without question is great. I'm happy to accept it as well... but I'm merely pointing out that when Alien is under the microscope, it too is far from perfect. For example, as I pointed out before... Why have only a single escape shuttle that can't even take 50% of the crew? It's of course a contrivance to allow for Ripley's escape, but for it not to be an option prior to the deaths of Kane, Brett, Dallas and Ash. It serves the story fine, but when you start to examine the logic/detail, it doesn't stack up.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 07, 2014, 10:17:00 PM
Dallas' seniority didn't count for jack while he was in the lock. The person whose seniority did matter followed protocol. What Dallas ordered was irrelevant because he wasn't in charge.
It did as soon as he was back in the ship.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 07, 2014, 10:17:00 PM
Uh, you're the one who was saying it was such a certainty that the thing would attack and kill them that it rendered the quarantine procedure moot.
Nope... the point wasn't in relation to the quarantine procedure. It was in reference to Ash's intervention. You, or SM, were stating that if they'd been left in the airlock only Kane would have died... and I was simply pointing out that we don't know that. We don't know what the facehugger would have done once finished with Kane. Would it curl up and die or try and impregnate someone else if in the immediate vicinity.? We don't know what the chestburster was capable of. Dallas may have very well of just stamped on its head with a big boot, but its not a given.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 07, 2014, 10:17:00 PM
How about we look back at the point you made that I was actually responding to. You said Dallas was stupid/incompetent because:
Horseshit. If your friend had a face-sucking alien strapped to his face you wouldn't stand outside a hospital saying "Yeah, no, it's cool, we'll just let him rape you until your procedures say you can try to save his life". If someone you were responsible for was in a car accident and you were told you couldn't call for an ambulance for at least a day afterwards, would you listen? Not unless you're a completely heartless arsehole. Which Dallas wasn't.
What a ridiculous comparison. A captain's responsibility is to his ship and the entire crew. He/she has to view things holistically, logically, objectively... that's the difference between those in charge that make decisions and those who get told what to do. Great... Dallas is a 'people' person... but it certainly didn't do the rest of the crew, the ship or its cargo any good. Ergo, he was short sighted and not a very good commanding officer.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 07, 2014, 10:17:00 PM
By Aliens, yes. By Alien, no, they're still being run by full crews.
Where in the film does it state that or is that another factoid you're just pullin' out of thin air? ;)
QuoteI'd expect any captain, pilot or navigator to check/confirm at which point on their course they picked up a transmission/distress beacon. It's part of the detail that lends to more believability.
Clearly you expect wrong.
QuoteWhy would it be more costly when it obviously cost them the Nostromo and all its cargo anyway (that's what happens when you don;t send the right people for the right job)?
Because they were incapable of seeing the future.
Crew were deemed expendable. Obviously they didn't expect them to scuttle the ship, but insurance would've ultimately covered the loss.
QuoteWhat were the security issues (I've never heard of those???
I'm going by the reasons cited by Burke. As previously mentioned Cameron copied the setup for Alien in Aliens. Burke went fishing with the colonists the same way whoever issued SO937 did.
QuoteWhy not send Ash on his own if he was already in the vicinity?
He wasn't in the vicinity.
QuoteWhy did he have to pretend to be... 1) Human? 2) A science officer crewmember of Nostromo?
So they wouldn't suspect anything when they woke up half way home.
QuoteThat complicated explanation for the company's rationale when that rationale is not borne out of any disenable logic presented in the film?
Nope it's not complicated and yes it is borne out by basic logic. How people make the same mistakes you do is frankly baffling.
Quotewhen Alien is under the microscope, it too is far from perfect
Perfect? No. Far from perfect? Also no.
QuoteIt's of course a contrivance to allow for Ripley's escape, but for it not to be an option prior to the deaths of Kane, Brett, Dallas and Ash. It serves the story fine, but when you start to examine the logic/detail, it doesn't stack up.
Possibly. You could also tie it in to the while thing about the Nostromo being sent in the first place. Company = cheap.
QuoteErgo, he was short sighted and not a very good commanding officer.
Dallas the tug pilot was out of his element. Janek (whom I generally dig as a character) didn't even offer the rest of his largely nameless non-bridge crew the opportunity to evacuate.
QuoteWhere in the film does it state that or is that another factoid you're just pullin' out of thin air?
Bishop is essentially the 'crew' of the Sulaco. In the script he was awake (a la David) and handled all the actual flying of the ship - so not out of thin air.
QuoteNope... the point wasn't in relation to the quarantine procedure. It was in reference to Ash's intervention. You, or SM, were stating that if they'd been left in the airlock only Kane would have died... and I was simply pointing out that we don't know that. We don't know what the facehugger would have done once finished with Kane. Would it curl up and die or try and impregnate someone else if in the immediate vicinity.? We don't know what the chestburster was capable of. Dallas may have very well of just stamped on its head with a big boot, but its not a given.
Face-huggers die after implantation, this was always the case. The quarantine procedure not accounting for a hitherto-unknown parasitic acid-bleeding space monster does not make the quarantine procedure redundant.
QuoteWhere in the film does it state that or is that another factoid you're just pullin' out of thin air?
Nostromo -- seven crew.
Sulaco -- one.
You do actually watch these films, yes?
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
Clearly you expect wrong.
Clearly I don't readily accept these type of contrivances.
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Because they were incapable of seeing the future.
Crew were deemed expendable. Obviously they didn't expect them to scuttle the ship, but insurance would've ultimately covered the loss.
So they send a ship to investigate alien transmissions and don't think of the potential scenarios? They don't play that out in their heads AT ALL? Is everyone, sans Ripley, in the 'Alien' universe a moron? "Hey we've just received alien transmissions indicating intelligent life in the cosmos, at coordinates X, Y and Z, which could change the nature of our existence, the universe and make us unimaginably rich. What should we do?". "Mmm - Just order a pizza for delivery at that location and we'll let pizza dude check it out for us"...
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
I'm going by the reasons cited by Burke. As previously mentioned Cameron copied the setup for Alien in Aliens. Burke went fishing with the colonists the same way whoever issued SO937 did.
I still don't understand what those security issues are? Burke certainly doesn't expand upon them - so why should I presume there were security issues x amount of years earlier during the events of Alien? Why are you so willing to accept information presented in films you like?
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
He wasn't in the vicinity.
The 'vicinity' as in the 'vicinity' of the Nostromo. Are we now to assume that Ash was just conveniently boxed up and waiting to be activated? Why didn't Ash just requisition the Nostromo. Why didn't the company request the Nostromo leave its cargo at the space station and then travel to the planetoid? Surely that would have made the trip quicker and less risky (in terms of putting the cargo in jeopardy)?
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
So they wouldn't suspect anything when they woke up half way home.
Suspect what exactly? It still doesn't explain the subterfuge. Why not just say "we're diverting you to investigate alien transmissions and we've put Ash on board to lead the investigation"? Why present him as the science officer when they could have put him on board as the captain? The subterfuge suggests that the 'company' knew that the missions could be deadly/dangerous? Otherwise why keep the facts from the inexperienced, ill equipped crew? But then it comes back to, so why if the company suspect this, and go through the trouble of all the subterfuge, do they not just send an equipped crew/ship in the first place with Ash masquerading as the scientist officer? It don't make sense.
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
Nope it's not complicated and yes it is borne out by basic logic. How people make the same mistakes you do is frankly baffling. Quote
What it suggests to me is that people who aren't willing to turn the same spotlight on the films they like are either lacking or just a tad hypocritical. You endlessly stating "yes it does – it says so in the film" and creating your own scenarios is not a defence.
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
Possibly. You could also tie it in to the while thing about the Nostromo being sent in the first place. Company = cheap.
Yes - You could "tie it in" if you were just making excuses and trying to defend blatant contrivances and logic gaps. Which of course you're not...
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
Dallas the tug pilot was out of his element. Janek (whom I generally dig as a character) didn't even offer the rest of his largely nameless non-bridge crew the opportunity to evacuate.
Something we agree about. Prometheus does exactly the same... My point.
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
Bishop is essentially the 'crew' of the Sulaco. In the script he was awake (a la David) and handled all the actual flying of the ship - so not out of thin air.
Which is the point I was making... There's no evidence to suggest that ships can't be piloted by a single pilot... specifically an android... Why couldn't Ash do what David and Bishop did?
Quote from: SiL on Apr 09, 2014, 09:30:53 PM
Quote
Face-huggers die after implantation, this was always the case. The quarantine procedure not accounting for a hitherto-unknown parasitic acid-bleeding space monster does not make the quarantine procedure redundant.
Quote
That's never stated in the films. We see it dead after it's impregnated Kane, but we don't know if it was capable of impregnating more than once if an immediate opportunity presented itself. I think you've read too many comics.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 09, 2014, 09:30:53 PM
Quote
Nostromo -- seven crew.
Sulaco -- one.
You do actually watch these films, yes?
Really??? I'm beginning to question whether you've watched these films recently. Where is the specific dialogue in Alien (or Aliens) that 'ships' cannot be piloted by a single occupant? In 2014 a single pilot is capable of landing a jumbo jet right?
Are you guys seriously still doing this?
QuoteThat's never stated in the films. We see it dead after it's impregnated Kane, but we don't know if it was capable of impregnating more than once if an immediate opportunity presented itself.
:laugh: Oh boy are you grasping at straws. It's never stated bullets kill Aliens, either, so I guess it's fair to say all the Aliens that ever got shot to death were just stunned and woke up later :laugh:
Quote from: Darth Vile on Apr 10, 2014, 04:06:20 PM
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
Clearly you expect wrong.
Clearly I don't readily accept these type of contrivances.
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Because they were incapable of seeing the future.
Crew were deemed expendable. Obviously they didn't expect them to scuttle the ship, but insurance would've ultimately covered the loss.
So they send a ship to investigate alien transmissions and don't think of the potential scenarios? They don't play that out in their heads AT ALL? Is everyone, sans Ripley, in the 'Alien' universe a moron? "Hey we've just received alien transmissions indicating intelligent life in the cosmos, at coordinates X, Y and Z, which could change the nature of our existence, the universe and make us unimaginably rich. What should we do?". "Mmm - Just order a pizza for delivery at that location and we'll let pizza dude check it out for us"...
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
I'm going by the reasons cited by Burke. As previously mentioned Cameron copied the setup for Alien in Aliens. Burke went fishing with the colonists the same way whoever issued SO937 did.
I still don't understand what those security issues are? Burke certainly doesn't expand upon them - so why should I presume there were security issues x amount of years earlier during the events of Alien? Why are you so willing to accept information presented in films you like?
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
He wasn't in the vicinity.
The 'vicinity' as in the 'vicinity' of the Nostromo. Are we now to assume that Ash was just conveniently boxed up and waiting to be activated? Why didn't Ash just requisition the Nostromo. Why didn't the company request the Nostromo leave its cargo at the space station and then travel to the planetoid? Surely that would have made the trip quicker and less risky (in terms of putting the cargo in jeopardy)?
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
So they wouldn't suspect anything when they woke up half way home.
Suspect what exactly? It still doesn't explain the subterfuge. Why not just say "we're diverting you to investigate alien transmissions and we've put Ash on board to lead the investigation"? Why present him as the science officer when they could have put him on board as the captain? The subterfuge suggests that the 'company' knew that the missions could be deadly/dangerous? Otherwise why keep the facts from the inexperienced, ill equipped crew? But then it comes back to, so why if the company suspect this, and go through the trouble of all the subterfuge, do they not just send an equipped crew/ship in the first place with Ash masquerading as the scientist officer? It don't make sense.
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
Nope it's not complicated and yes it is borne out by basic logic. How people make the same mistakes you do is frankly baffling. Quote
What it suggests to me is that people who aren't willing to turn the same spotlight on the films they like are either lacking or just a tad hypocritical. You endlessly stating "yes it does – it says so in the film" and creating your own scenarios is not a defence.
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
Possibly. You could also tie it in to the while thing about the Nostromo being sent in the first place. Company = cheap.
Yes - You could "tie it in" if you were just making excuses and trying to defend blatant contrivances and logic gaps. Which of course you're not...
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
Dallas the tug pilot was out of his element. Janek (whom I generally dig as a character) didn't even offer the rest of his largely nameless non-bridge crew the opportunity to evacuate.
Something we agree about. Prometheus does exactly the same... My point.
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2014, 12:37:14 PM
Quote
Bishop is essentially the 'crew' of the Sulaco. In the script he was awake (a la David) and handled all the actual flying of the ship - so not out of thin air.
Which is the point I was making... There's no evidence to suggest that ships can't be piloted by a single pilot... specifically an android... Why couldn't Ash do what David and Bishop did?
Quote from: SiL on Apr 09, 2014, 09:30:53 PM
Quote
Face-huggers die after implantation, this was always the case. The quarantine procedure not accounting for a hitherto-unknown parasitic acid-bleeding space monster does not make the quarantine procedure redundant.
Quote
That's never stated in the films. We see it dead after it's impregnated Kane, but we don't know if it was capable of impregnating more than once if an immediate opportunity presented itself. I think you've read too many comics.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 09, 2014, 09:30:53 PM
Quote
Nostromo -- seven crew.
Sulaco -- one.
You do actually watch these films, yes?
Really??? I'm beginning to question whether you've watched these films recently. Where is the specific dialogue in Alien (or Aliens) that 'ships' cannot be piloted by a single occupant? In 2014 a single pilot is capable of landing a jumbo jet right?
Nostromo is piloted from both the bridge and engineering,on C-deck.A crew member would have to be in two places at once.
A post Ziggurat that screams "I've forgotten why I'm being so obnoxiously contrary but LEAVE PROMETHEUS ALOOOONEEE!!!"
He's trying to hard. If he wants to ride Prometheus Jock nobody gives a shit.
696 days to go...
It seems like forever, and a huge tease . I really enjoyed " Prometheus " , We will be hard pressed to see a sequel by 2016. Look at the sequels , By " Marvel" two years
apart or so for good old Cap and co...
http://collider.com/prometheus-2-sequel-news-michael-fassbender (http://collider.com/prometheus-2-sequel-news-michael-fassbender)
The Counselor 2 confirmed
Lil' bit of non-news really. It's a shame we're not hearing more.
Better than "No, there isn't going to be a sequel," I suppose...
Unlike the author I'm hoping Ridley is on board. Most directors, particularly when tackling the sci-fi genre think they can wow with incessant flying camera moves and special effects and if Ridley were absent that would worry me more than any other aspect of the production.
Fassbender is in it? I'll have to watch this too then :/
Quote from: Gash on May 12, 2014, 01:19:44 AM
Unlike the author I'm hoping Ridley is on board. Most directors, particularly when tackling the sci-fi genre think they can wow with incessant flying camera moves and special effects and if Ridley were absent that would worry me more than any other aspect of the production.
But that was essentially all he wanted to do with Prometheus. No coherent story or characters but it sure as hell looked pretty! I'm happy to retain him as a director but I want a script that's actually good this time.
I wish Ridley would jettison his goofy notions about sci-fi.
I for one think Ridley is doing a fantastic job healing the Alien franchise. I love deep movies with monsters in them and that's exactly what Prometheus was. The best franchise film since Aliens. P2 will be more alieny thus more monsters.
The Alien franchise is back.
no negro, just no
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 12, 2014, 11:38:13 AM
Quote from: Gash on May 12, 2014, 01:19:44 AM
Unlike the author I'm hoping Ridley is on board. Most directors, particularly when tackling the sci-fi genre think they can wow with incessant flying camera moves and special effects and if Ridley were absent that would worry me more than any other aspect of the production.
But that was essentially all he wanted to do with Prometheus. No coherent story or characters but it sure as hell looked pretty! I'm happy to retain him as a director but I want a script that's actually good this time.
I feel the same way. There were plenty of ideas that could have been explored more deeply. The script just felt kind of half-baked.
Before everyone jumps on Lindelof for the script (I wish more would), save some of your anger for Ridley Scott, considering that he wasn't happy with the original script and okayed Lindelof's butchering; not to mention how Scott wanted to remake a bigger, badder Alien.
Quote from: maledoro on May 13, 2014, 12:45:16 PM
Before everyone jumps on Lindelof for the script (I wish more would), save some of your anger for Ridley Scott, considering that he wasn't happy with the original script and okayed Lindelof's butchering; not to mention how Scott wanted to remake a bigger, badder Alien.
According to Spaihts it was Fox that wasn't happy with the script and wanted to spend less time concerning themselves with the Alien series. So Scott turned to Lindelof with the intention of opening the series up (which in my opinion was the right move but with the wrong writer). Not that I disagree Scott had some questionable ideas for the script, just that the initial push appears to have come from the studio.
QuoteSpaihts: The creature did change in some pretty dramatic ways from draft to draft. But the most dramatic change was the removal of the xenomorph from the film. That was a shift that happened at the same time as I stepped off the film. A lot of that push came from the studio very high up; they were interested in doing something original and not one more franchise film. That really came to a head at the studio - the major push to focus on the new mythology of Prometheus and dial the Aliens as far back as we could came down from the studio.
http://www.empireonline.com/interviews/interview.asp?IID=1563 (http://www.empireonline.com/interviews/interview.asp?IID=1563)
Don't forget that Prometheus is what Alien was originally going to be until they cut a bunch of stuff out. Due to budget I believe? The pyramid, the black goo, the sandstorm. It was all there.
Pyramid, yes (even then very different to Prometheus'), everything else, no.
Don't recall any black goo in Starbeast.
But they did bring back a head from the pyramid in both films. Only one of them had skin on though.
There was sand. I guess there was a sand storm, even. But it's nothing like what we see in Prometheus. And there's no black goo. Anywhere.
AvP also took a nod to the Starbeast script by having the pyramid.
The guild judged it more than a 'nod'.
Well this throws a spanner in the works in regards to whether the proposed Ridley Scott/ Fox project is Prometheus 2
QuoteRidley Scott is in negotiations to direct Matt Damon in The Martian, an outer space adventure project being made by 20th Century Fox.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/ridley-scott-direct-matt-damon-703887 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/ridley-scott-direct-matt-damon-703887)
Quote from: Gazz on May 13, 2014, 02:23:10 PMAccording to Spaihts it was Fox that wasn't happy with the script and wanted to spend less time concerning themselves with the Alien series. So Scott turned to Lindelof with the intention of opening the series up (which in my opinion was the right move but with the wrong writer). Not that I disagree Scott had some questionable ideas for the script, just that the initial push appears to have come from the studio.
I have an agenda, and it involves blaming Ridley Scott.
;)
Quote from: Gazz on May 13, 2014, 11:16:23 PM
Well this throws a spanner in the works in regards to whether the proposed Ridley Scott/ Fox project is Prometheus 2
QuoteRidley Scott is in negotiations to direct Matt Damon in The Martian, an outer space adventure project being made by 20th Century Fox.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/ridley-scott-direct-matt-damon-703887 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/ridley-scott-direct-matt-damon-703887)
If he couldn't have a Martian in
Alien, maybe he's making up for it in
Prometheus 2, like he made up for all that other stuff in the first one.
He's not even finished with Exodus yet and he's still got Prom2, Blade Runner 2, that new HBO Ancient Aliens/Egyptian series, the Halo digital feature, that film about NFL football injuries and now this Martian film to direct and produce. That's a helluva schedule for a 76 year old!
Quote from: maledoro on May 13, 2014, 11:22:29 PM
If he couldn't have a Martian in Alien, maybe he's making up for it in Prometheus 2, like he made up for all that other stuff in the first one.
We'll he did slip in that martian piss reference in Prom1! :laugh:
I wouldn't be surprised if he did a 7-way, three-hour mashup.
>:(
This from Variety, in an article about a Battlestar Galactica movie:
Quote"Transcendence" writer Jack Paglen has signed on to write the screenplay. Paglen has also committed to Ridley Scott's "Prometheus" sequel for Fox that will start production this fall.
Not exactly big news, but it's the first I've heard concerning an actual production start date.
[EDIT: link - http://variety.com/2014/film/news/battlestar-galactica-movie-gets-new-life-at-universal-exclusive-1201153687/ (http://variety.com/2014/film/news/battlestar-galactica-movie-gets-new-life-at-universal-exclusive-1201153687/)]
Quote from: Gazz on May 13, 2014, 11:16:23 PM
Well this throws a spanner in the works in regards to whether the proposed Ridley Scott/ Fox project is Prometheus 2
QuoteRidley Scott is in negotiations to direct Matt Damon in The Martian, an outer space adventure project being made by 20th Century Fox.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/ridley-scott-direct-matt-damon-703887 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/ridley-scott-direct-matt-damon-703887)
Maybe it's another inbetweener movie like The Counsellor
i think Scott will give this project to another director.
(Probably his son.)
Quote from: Blacklabel on May 22, 2014, 12:53:36 AM
i think Scott will give this project to another director.
(Probably his son.)
yep i think your right
truthfully -- we all botch something we are normally good at. so if a guy writes a movie we don't love - doesn't mean the next one won't be amazing
just saying
Prometheus was f**king amazing. It makes bold predictions about how f**king retarded scientist will be in the future.
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 25, 2014, 05:57:17 PM
That design is awesome but that particular image doesn't do it for me.
This though...
http://whatculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/art003.jpg
Welll that shows that the goo was initially intended to turn you into a xeno more or less.
Suckerpunch:
Ridley (p1 was all his idea right ?? RIGHT !!)
wins first round !!!
Fans. Lost first round
Because here we have a thread that proves that the demand for a sequel is huge .
That's why they moved away from a direct prequel.
Because as I have said many times
You destroy the mystery
You destroy the franchise
What mysteries remain ??
And unused ideas.
Xeno origins
Derelict how /why crashed
What else has to be explored ??
Sj = engineers
Perhaps why they wanted us dead ??
wwwwwwwwwwwwwwWAT?
For a group (or part thereof) of people who seems to dislike prometheus !?!?!?!?
(Is that the case ????)
This thread got a lot of replies close to 400 in less than 24 hours or so !!!
Am I right ???
Then this prometheus is what it is supposed to be because there is obviously a lot of people who can't wait for the sequel.
You don't go through 13 drafts and then come up with a movie that people doesn't like. It was made specifically like this - albeit in a rush so it has many rough edges but leaves open the possibility of a re cuts to come. No accident . Who knows maybe the re cut has already been done to get those scenes to fit better. Ie. blade runner.
Or perhaps I am a dumbass....
break it down for me barney style:
Do you like Prometheus?
Do you hate Prometheus?
Sorry I don't know if you if you are speaking to me but if you are then:
Yes I very much love the movie .
But you need to understand the purpose behind the movie . It can get only better if perhaps re cuts are made as with blade runner.and it takes us to the civilisation that created/discovered the xeno.
Prometheus is a gateway to that - its the only movie that does that - so all the other shit about plotholes doesn't matter to me . They are fixable.
Otherwise prometheus is a deliberate mess to what end ???
I can't see them working through 13 drafts and then messing up ??
Why ??
For me this the only way it can make sense.
I'm so confused right now.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Jun 17, 2014, 09:39:09 PM
I'm so confused right now.
Fox is going to use the old formula that worked with alien .
You first have the theatrical cut and then you bring out the sequel . After the second sequel you bring out a directors cut that has scenes that isn't considered canon as it work against the sequel as with alien - aliens (egg morphing vs queen ). Then everyone fights about it and theories fly.
Controversy sparks interest which leads to more sales . Etc etc
This is just a formula I believe fox will apply. How much money has fox made from dvd sales scale models novels etc.
What other director can do that from a $230 million dollar budget ?
That's why fox wanted ridley .
So if p2 turns out like out p1 then that may be a good thing for the long term future of the EU .
I'm picking up what you are laying down.
So the big question is :
Who is going to feck it up when p3 is directed by :
*fill in blank*
Quote from: Kimarhi on Jun 17, 2014, 10:04:10 PM
I'm picking up what you are laying down.
Could you clue me in then?
There will be a Prometheus extended edition that will be the bomb diggitty is what I took away from this conversation.
Will you teach me this power?
Quote from: Kimarhi on Jun 17, 2014, 10:04:10 PM
I'm picking up what you are laying down.
Can you dig it?
So, Prometheus is set for the month of March in 2016...
quit trying to get us back on topic lemonade
Hopefully we get another update soon. Filming supposedly begins in the tall.
Quote from: Lemonade on Jun 18, 2014, 02:30:28 AM
So, Prometheus is set for the month of March in 2016...
That slot may very well end up being taken up by Ridley Scott's The Martian unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your stance on Prometheus).
The announcement of this release date came way before it was known that Ridley was negotiating to direct The Martian.
Studios dont tend to announce release dates for Ridley Scott films that they arent sure if he's directing or not.
So, yeah this release date is probably for Prometheus deux: the quickening who Ridley will most likely just help as a producer. And it'll probably be directed by another fella. Or it'll fall apart completely.
I hope the Deacon makes a return. I'd hate for it to be just a quick one-off thing because I'd like to see if it evolves into something else entirely.
This movie didn't make much f**king sense to me when I saw it in theaters. It was nonetheless a decent movie and will no doubtfully be a great cult classic but in the end there will be no sequel that could patch up its universe's plot holes. Especially in the universe it is in: Alien.
Prometheus was another addition to the long line of Cannon and non-Cannon contradictions of Alien and I can't wait to see how Fox plans to butcher it even more witn this upcoming installment..
Quote from: DoomRulz on Jun 18, 2014, 01:10:10 PM
I hope the Deacon makes a return. I'd hate for it to be just a quick one-off thing because I'd like to see if it evolves into something else entirely.
The thing is, it was created by a specific set of circumstances, that I can't see another one showing up. So it would have to be that particular deacon all grown up that we see.
Quote from: Lemonade on Jun 18, 2014, 05:15:22 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Jun 18, 2014, 01:10:10 PM
I hope the Deacon makes a return. I'd hate for it to be just a quick one-off thing because I'd like to see if it evolves into something else entirely.
The thing is, it was created by a specific set of circumstances, that I can't see another one showing up. So it would have to be that particular deacon all grown up that we see.
That would work for me. As it stands now, that Deacon was pure fan-service until a future film tells us otherwise.
Well, as Damon Lindelof put it "I would be fundamentally disappointed going into this movie and not seeing one alien".
Quote from: Lemonade on Jun 18, 2014, 05:15:22 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Jun 18, 2014, 01:10:10 PM
I hope the Deacon makes a return. I'd hate for it to be just a quick one-off thing because I'd like to see if it evolves into something else entirely.
The thing is, it was created by a specific set of circumstances, that I can't see another one showing up. So it would have to be that particular deacon all grown up that we see.
And that is my biggest problem with the movie. Yet, the mural would suggestion they know about the Deacon...
Holloway is infected, than shags Shaw. She bears the trilobite, which impregnates an Engineer with a Deacon.
Since humans are genetically identical to Engineers, whats to stop more Deacons being created in the same manner?
I hadn't considered the genetics factor. Fair point.
That said - still a roundabout way to getting there.
Quote from: SM on Jun 19, 2014, 08:58:11 AMSince humans are genetically identical to Engineers, whats to stop more Deacons being created in the same manner?
Possibly the whole get infected, have sex, birth a giant octopus bit.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jun 19, 2014, 02:04:53 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 19, 2014, 08:58:11 AMSince humans are genetically identical to Engineers, whats to stop more Deacons being created in the same manner?
Possibly the whole get infected, have sex, birth a giant octopus bit.
...and then getting it to rape a Engineer.
A very unlikely set of circumstances to happen by chance but still replicable in a controlled environment.
but it wouldn't have to facehug an engineer since one of the "amaze revelations" was that genetically they were identical to humans.
Would it even be able to rape a human considering the size of that thing? And would a human subsequently be able to bear host to something as big as a Deacon? Or would he/she just birth a smaller version of a Deacon?
I imagine it would pop out smaller than jockey deacon.
The whole idea of being genetically identical was foolishness anyways.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Jun 19, 2014, 05:24:32 PM
The whole idea of being genetically identical was foolishness anyways.
Yeah, I mean not even humans are genetically identical to each other. Otherwise forensic DNA profiling would be useless and we would all be the same color, size etc.
Could it be that the "DNA match" in Prometheus rather means that the single Engineer specimen is biochemically similar to humans with many of our shared base genomes? Perhaps like humans and Neanderthals? Or chimps. Or something a little closer?
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jun 19, 2014, 02:04:53 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 19, 2014, 08:58:11 AMSince humans are genetically identical to Engineers, whats to stop more Deacons being created in the same manner?
Possibly the whole get infected, have sex, birth a giant octopus bit.
Nope.
QuoteWould it even be able to rape a human considering the size of that thing? And would a human subsequently be able to bear host to something as big as a Deacon? Or would he/she just birth a smaller version of a Deacon?
Why wouldn't it? The Engineer was dead by the time the Deacon popped anyway.
Quote from: SM on Jun 19, 2014, 09:47:25 PM
QuoteWould it even be able to rape a human considering the size of that thing? And would a human subsequently be able to bear host to something as big as a Deacon? Or would he/she just birth a smaller version of a Deacon?
Why wouldn't it?
The tube/organ it rammed down the Engineers throat could barely fit into the Engineers mouth.
A Deacon that hatched from a human host would also have to be considerably smaller considering the one we saw was already man sized.
QuoteThe Engineer was dead by the time the Deacon popped anyway.
Was the Engineer dead or was it just anesthetized like Kane?
QuoteA Deacon that hatched from a human host would also have to be considerably smaller considering the one we saw was already man sized.
No doubt.
QuoteWas the Engineer dead or was it just anesthetized like Kane?
Kane was awake when the burster popped.
Quote from: SM on Jun 19, 2014, 10:10:35 PM
Kane was awake when the burster popped.
Granted, but he was still unconscious for a while after the hugger dropped off. Perhaps the trilobite gave the Engineer an extra strong dose of narcotics since he was putting up such a struggle? Or perhaps the Deacon gestation period was simply a bit quicker?
I don't think we're supposed to look too deep into something like this. Lindelof and Scott want us to theorize over the cool shit like whether David is being serious or not in that one moment, or why did the Engineers want to destroy us, not... why a monster wasn't conscious when another monster is bursting from its chest...
Its really not important at all, and is minutiae at its finest.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jun 19, 2014, 10:18:15 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 19, 2014, 10:10:35 PM
Kane was awake when the burster popped.
Granted, but he was still unconscious for a while after the hugger dropped off. Perhaps the trilobite gave the Engineer an extra strong dose of narcotics since he was putting up such a struggle? Or perhaps the Deacon gestation period was simply a bit quicker?
If the Engineer was asleep his eyes were open and it didn't wake him enough tfor him to react.
And the Deacon gestation was about 5 days. Way longer than any Alien.
That's one thing I would've preferred to see, the engineer convulsing in pain from the deacon bursting out rather than looking like a biomechanical blow up doll.
There was nothing left of his insides to convulse. His flesh was just a womb by that point and his insides were long gone.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jun 19, 2014, 09:07:27 PM
Could it be that the "DNA match" in Prometheus rather means that the single Engineer specimen is biochemically similar to humans with many of our shared base genomes? Perhaps like humans and Neanderthals? Or chimps. Or something a little closer?
They couldn't even get the basics, like supposed 'carbon dating', right. Much less the more obvious stuff, like stapling mere skin back together somehow preventing Shaw's guts from spilling out... If you're looking for a deeper meaning to the scientific aspects, you're at the wrong movie. ;)
I wonder how the deacon will even correlate with the rest of the alien story.
I don't think the deacon would be too hard to reproduce. Perhaps when someone is infected, their sex drive increases. Halloway had Shaw, but perhaps in absence of a consensual partner, the infected's sexual drive increases with their aggression, forcing them to put on the rape goggles. Once again we have unwanted pregnancy due to forced reproductive behaviour, out pops squiddy and the cycle continues.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jun 19, 2014, 03:37:29 PM
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jun 19, 2014, 02:04:53 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 19, 2014, 08:58:11 AMSince humans are genetically identical to Engineers, whats to stop more Deacons being created in the same manner?
Possibly the whole get infected, have sex, birth a giant octopus bit.
...and then getting it to rape a Engineer.
A very unlikely set of circumstances to happen by chance but still replicable in a controlled environment.
Which would indicate that the deacon is an accident ?? Ant therefore not a progenitor of the xeno ??
Asking not saying ....
Quote from: Kimarhi on Jun 19, 2014, 04:58:45 PM
but it wouldn't have to facehug an engineer since one of the "amaze revelations" was that genetically they were identical to humans.
Good point and as such a woman's womb must be genetically similar to a facehugger carrying egg because both can produce a facehugger and did holloways sperm heal her womb (and therefore her infertility ??)
Which is again why I ask is prometheus in the alien universe or is just cannon in the EU and
Because
There is nothing in alien that corresponded to any of this (from what we see in the movie).
Is kane's son a product of an sperm infecting a female engineers womd and then grown inside an egg ?? As if the stasis fields were where the eggs were grown simply out of the biomechanical structure of the ship and the ship releasing a human fertilised egg being infected with the virus of the urns ??
How does this correspond to a queen laying eggs ??
Sounds closer to egg morphing from a xeno stinging someone being cocooned becoming an egg. ??
Dunno....
Quote from: Lemonade on Jun 18, 2014, 05:15:22 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Jun 18, 2014, 01:10:10 PM
I hope the Deacon makes a return. I'd hate for it to be just a quick one-off thing because I'd like to see if it evolves into something else entirely.
The thing is, it was created by a specific set of circumstances, that I can't see another one showing up. So it would have to be that particular deacon all grown up that we see.
Regardless of how it comes, maybe we'll see something like the old Prommy artwork showing the Deacon attacking two humans. I'd link it if I could find it.
Quote from: SM on Jun 19, 2014, 10:41:32 PM
If the Engineer was asleep his eyes were open and it didn't wake him enough tfor him to react.
Never said the Engineer was asleep.
Quoteit didn't wake him enough tfor him to react.
The idea behind anesthesia is that the patient ideally shouldn't wake-up during surgery.
Quotehis eyes were open
A person's eyes can be open when they are unconscious.
QuoteAnd the Deacon gestation was about 5 days. Way longer than any Alien.
Which means the Engineer would have been stiff as a plank with obvious signs of chemical decomposition and bloat if it was dead.
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Jun 20, 2014, 03:16:32 AM
They couldn't even get the basics, like supposed 'carbon dating', right. Much less the more obvious stuff, like stapling mere skin back together somehow preventing Shaw's guts from spilling out... If you're looking for a deeper meaning to the scientific aspects, you're at the wrong movie. ;)
I'm beginning to agree... :)
I just hope the time I'm waiting for Prometheus 2 to appear will be worth it . ;D
QuoteWhich means the Engineer would have been stiff as a plank with obvious signs of chemical decomposition and bloat if it was dead.
We don't know how long he'd been dead.
No longer than 6 hours considering that they are supposedly biochemically identical to us.
But what are we debating here? What is the point of this debate? ???
Quote from: DoomRulz on Jun 20, 2014, 12:18:49 PM
Quote from: Lemonade on Jun 18, 2014, 05:15:22 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Jun 18, 2014, 01:10:10 PM
I hope the Deacon makes a return. I'd hate for it to be just a quick one-off thing because I'd like to see if it evolves into something else entirely.
The thing is, it was created by a specific set of circumstances, that I can't see another one showing up. So it would have to be that particular deacon all grown up that we see.
Regardless of how it comes, maybe we'll see something like the old Prommy artwork showing the Deacon attacking two humans. I'd link it if I could find it.
Hopefully. Hopefully we get a lot more of Spaihts' set pieces used finally.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi47.tinypic.com%2F15hcft.jpg&hash=66f1a4cda7ab8316955ec697c73f5426762f48b3)
Quote from: Lemonade on Jun 21, 2014, 04:53:18 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Jun 20, 2014, 12:18:49 PM
Quote from: Lemonade on Jun 18, 2014, 05:15:22 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Jun 18, 2014, 01:10:10 PM
I hope the Deacon makes a return. I'd hate for it to be just a quick one-off thing because I'd like to see if it evolves into something else entirely.
The thing is, it was created by a specific set of circumstances, that I can't see another one showing up. So it would have to be that particular deacon all grown up that we see.
Regardless of how it comes, maybe we'll see something like the old Prommy artwork showing the Deacon attacking two humans. I'd link it if I could find it.
Hopefully. Hopefully we get a lot more of Spaihts' set pieces used finally.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi47.tinypic.com%2F15hcft.jpg&hash=66f1a4cda7ab8316955ec697c73f5426762f48b3)
ah, that's the photo I was looking for. I really, really want to see that on-screen.
Me too. Really cool.
Yes, I would like to see a badass scene with a monster, just like in the first Alien. It would be really great to see Giger's original design, but the deacon also would be nice for the role.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffc09.deviantart.net%2Ffs70%2Ff%2F2012%2F182%2F9%2F9%2F9930a422dc642acc4017f0e3b27ce945-d55n0z1.jpg&hash=598aa55c79aa3572dd27553eb033869ad7f8a195)
*Sniff* They grow up so fast.
Throw all kinds of aliens in there, like Spaihts' script. What disappointed me with Prometheus was that the deacon didn't have any contact with humans. And the squid? Only Shaw experiences it, and she doesn't even bring it up to anyone! The zombie scene is self-contained, no one brings it up again. The snake scene is, good f**king grief, contained! Only Millburn and Fifield. Not one person said "hey, this is some scary shit!" Maybe Janek or somebody said something regarding the black goo, but I want the monsters acknowledged.
I want people acknowledging the monsters, and getting killed by the monsters. I am a cerebral gorehound and want the ante upped exponentially.
Quote from: SM on Jun 19, 2014, 09:47:25 PM
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jun 19, 2014, 02:04:53 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 19, 2014, 08:58:11 AMSince humans are genetically identical to Engineers, whats to stop more Deacons being created in the same manner?
Possibly the whole get infected, have sex, birth a giant octopus bit.
Nope.
Because giving birth to aggressive squid monsters is totally fine and nobody will notice.
...there's already a mural of the deacon on the planet... Pretty sure that's a tiny hint that the "Deacon" is somehting they already know about.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jun 24, 2014, 03:12:23 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 19, 2014, 09:47:25 PM
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jun 19, 2014, 02:04:53 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 19, 2014, 08:58:11 AMSince humans are genetically identical to Engineers, whats to stop more Deacons being created in the same manner?
Possibly the whole get infected, have sex, birth a giant octopus bit.
Nope.
Because giving birth to aggressive squid monsters is totally fine and nobody will notice.
What's that got to do with anything?
Den of Geek has confirmed what many of us have suspected for a while now. Ridley Scott's next film will be The Martian, which is currently scheduled for release next year.
http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/the-martian/31059/ridley-scotts-next-film-the-martian-with-matt-damon (http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/the-martian/31059/ridley-scotts-next-film-the-martian-with-matt-damon)
That still leaves the March 2016 slot for a Prometheus sequel, though I wouldn't be surprised if Fox don't simply push The Martian back to fill it.
It also begs the question as to who will be directing the Prometheus sequel if it is still going ahead for 2016?
C'mon NEIL BLOMKAMP!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: tmjhur on Jun 25, 2014, 12:33:10 PM
C'mon NEIL BLOMKAMP!!!!!!!!!
Nah, I want him to keep making his own stuff. Much more room for originality than playing around in a franchise that's already so many movies deep.
Nah, he's working with Weaver to do Alien 5. :D
Spoiler
(i wish this was true.)
But in all seriousness, they'll either drop Prometheus 2 entirely or give it to another director.
Development hell? I hope not :(
I will feel so sad, so betrayed, and so legitimately hurt if Ridley doesn't do Prometheus 2. You promised Noomi, Ridley! You owe it to us fans to see your vision through. We want Shaw and David through either your eyes only, or not at all. :'(
Quote from: Lemonade on Jun 25, 2014, 09:36:49 PM
I will feel so sad, so betrayed, and so legitimately hurt if Ridley doesn't do Prometheus 2. You promised Noomi, Ridley! You owe it to us fans to see your vision through. We want Shaw and David through either your eyes only, or not at all. :'(
there's plenty of other directors who are just as talented who can take his place. i doubt fox will drop it if he doesnt direct.
Quote from: hfeldhaus on Jun 25, 2014, 10:03:16 PM
Quote from: Lemonade on Jun 25, 2014, 09:36:49 PM
I will feel so sad, so betrayed, and so legitimately hurt if Ridley doesn't do Prometheus 2. You promised Noomi, Ridley! You owe it to us fans to see your vision through. We want Shaw and David through either your eyes only, or not at all. :'(
there's plenty of other directors who are just as talented who can take his place. i doubt fox will drop it if he doesnt direct.
Nope. I want the father of this universe to be the director.
to do P2 he would have to shoot back to back with the martian, and edit both of them in a 2 year time slot, doubt its going to happen. would be very interested in seeing david fincher take the seat again. he really can do f**ked up and perverse, thats where ridley dropped the ball for me in prometheus
They can always push P2 back.
True but if they want to keep to the set date then there's gunna be trouble hitting it with Ridley
First film didnt make that much profit for Fox. :P
Gravity came out and now i bet that Ridley wants to get some of that "scifi OSCAR winning" action.. and that's why he's gonna do "Castaway on Mars" with Matt Damon, lolz.
$403m on a $130m budget... Fox was very happy.
Quote from: Lemonade on Jun 26, 2014, 02:54:38 AM
$403m on a $130m budget... Fox was very happy.
Agreed lemonade. It just seems that they weren't sure whether or not to go too big with it - like they just tested the water and tried to see if ridley could create (if indeed he had the final say) something that would be similar to alien in that it sparked the imagination and mystery and then they milk it for every cent it was worth - the only place left to go was to the source (of or part of the original mystery) as the xenos were milked dry.
Which is why I really hope ridley does direct p2 and does more of the same - but I have uneasy feeling that might not be the case........
Fox went huge with Prometheus. In fact the only other they have hyped more is x-men days of future past. The marketing was immense for this
Quote from: Blacklabel on Jun 26, 2014, 01:47:09 AM
First film didnt make that much profit for Fox. :P
f**k knows with Hollywood accounting. But here's my take:
It cost $130m to make. Then you still need to add advertising and other promotional costs. Lets say $200m total.
It would then need to make $400m at the box office just to break even. Most likely the real profits would only start with BD/DVD sales/rentals and broadcasting.
A film is generally considered successful if it makes back three times it's budget. Prometheus did this, even before you factor in the $40+m it made on the DVD/ Blu-Ray market.
I assume "considered successful" would mean the same as considered profitable?
Pretty close call then if it needed to make $390m to fit that criteria.
Like I said, there's no doubt that it made money. It just wasn't a huge money spinner for Fox.
Successful is successful. Profitable is a whole other kettle of fish. Depends on the accounting used. Prometheus could've made $200m and still just turned a profit after factoring in marketing and promotion, or it could've been like some films that make squillions while the studio cooks the books so it looks like the film lost money so certain vested interests don't get any money from back end deals.
I really hope they get a new director in and Giger the shit out of P2.
Latter might be difficult.
Unless he had some really bizarre stipulations in his will...
Quote from: SM on Jun 26, 2014, 11:18:00 PM
Latter might be difficult.
Unless he had some really bizarre stipulations in his will...
Well surely they can go back to the bones and car engine walls without getting a lawsuit on their hands?
In addition to the original GIANT space jockey design.
Prometheus was far too clean and generic.
One of the artists from P1 was very Giger-esque in his style. I can't remember his name off hand but I'll go find him.
I can't find him in the gallery but he had a whole section on the Prometheus blu-ray. Was a foreign chap.
These days are anxious days for 'ol Lemonade. I do not want to wake up to news of Ridley being replaced on his baby, Prometheus 2. I would cry. :-\
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 27, 2014, 07:30:42 AM
One of the artists from P1 was very Giger-esque in his style. I can't remember his name off hand but I'll go find him.
I can't find him in the gallery but he had a whole section on the Prometheus blu-ray. Was a foreign chap.
Gutalin.
I just checked out his work. Very cool.
It always depresses me looking at Prometheus concept art because it always seems so much better than the movie.
Most things concerning the movie do though.
Quote from: SM on Jun 26, 2014, 11:08:25 PM
Successful is successful. Profitable is a whole other kettle of fish. Depends on the accounting used. Prometheus could've made $200m and still just turned a profit after factoring in marketing and promotion, or it could've been like some films that make squillions while the studio cooks the books so it looks like the film lost money so certain vested interests don't get any money from back end deals.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jun 26, 2014, 09:22:24 PM
f**k knows with Hollywood accounting.
March 4th? I know the film is being released sometime in 2016, but you have to assume it would be a summer release right? I mean Alien movies have had a tradition in a way of being released during the summer season. Why don't they just say 'Coming Summer 2016' instead of making up all this guesstimated dates? I don't understand :laugh:
hmm weird
Quote from: Chronicle on Jul 08, 2014, 04:23:14 PM
March 4th? I know the film is being released sometime in 2016, but you have to assume it would be a summer release right? I mean Alien movies have had a tradition in a way of being released during the summer season. Why don't they just say 'Coming Summer 2016' instead of making up all this guesstimated dates? I don't understand :laugh:
You sir/ma'am have a fully functional but slightly off-calibrated bullshit detector. :P
in the facebook page for Carlos Huante (who worked in Prometheus).. found a few comments from months ago... he was asked if a certain work he posted was for Prometheus 2... his reply was that "cant share work for films that havent come out."
So i guess that's confirmation that he's involved somewhat and that there's "movement" behind the scenes on this?
The gears are turning.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jul 10, 2014, 02:28:04 PM
Quote from: Chronicle on Jul 08, 2014, 04:23:14 PM
March 4th? I know the film is being released sometime in 2016, but you have to assume it would be a summer release right? I mean Alien movies have had a tradition in a way of being released during the summer season. Why don't they just say 'Coming Summer 2016' instead of making up all this guesstimated dates? I don't understand :laugh:
You sir/ma'am have a fully functional but slightly off-calibrated bullshit detector. :P
lol, I am a sir lol. But yes I can be quite gullable at times.
Quote from: Gazz on Jun 25, 2014, 11:35:47 AM
Den of Geek has confirmed what many of us have suspected for a while now. Ridley Scott's next film will be The Martian, which is currently scheduled for release next year.
That still leaves the March 2016 slot for a Prometheus sequel, though I wouldn't be surprised if Fox don't simply push The Martian back to fill it.
According to /Film, Prometheus 2 was never actually scheduled for March 4th 2016, that slot was for The Martian which will now be moved forward to November 25th 2015.
http://www.slashfilm.com/ridley-scott-the-martian-movie-release-date/ (http://www.slashfilm.com/ridley-scott-the-martian-movie-release-date/)
I followed that link, read this line "The Martian is basically Cast Away meets Apollo 13, as a U.S. Astronaut is mistakenly stranded on Mars by his crew," and immediately pictured one of The Astronaut's crew sitting at his station, musing "That's funny, we have more delta V than we should... Kevin!"
Can we expect The Astronaut to to fight off a pair of aliens who are trying to steal his stuff, using all manner of booby traps that don't injure the aliens nearly as much as they should?
Will The Astronaut learn importance of a crew?
I've been meaning to read the book. I've heard it's really good.
Quote from: MH-875 on Aug 05, 2014, 02:25:27 AM
I followed that link, read this line "The Martian is basically Cast Away meets Apollo 13, as a U.S. Astronaut is mistakenly stranded on Mars by his crew," and immediately pictured one of The Astronaut's crew sitting at his station, musing "That's funny, we have more delta V than we should... Kevin!"
Can we expect The Astronaut to to fight off a pair of aliens who are trying to steal his stuff, using all manner of booby traps that don't injure the aliens nearly as much as they should?
Will The Astronaut learn importance of a crew?
I just hope they keep all the hardcore scientific aspects of the book instead of
spoon feeding the audience as Hollywood is often want to do. Although I can think of 101 reasons why that is unlikely to happen. ;)
You're such an optimist, The Eighth Passenger. :)
I am no such thing. In fact I suspect most, if not all, scriptwriters learn the mantra "scientific/factual/historical accuracy do not a good story make". Them and all persons responsible for scientific creativity in films.
It will be enough for me if I can sit through the movie a not be reminded of Cast Away, Apollo 13, or Home Alone, if the film properly sells me the concept that an astronaut can be "mistakenly" left behind,and if his ordeal not violate the movie's own logic somehow.
I don't think reading the first sentence of the plot on the wikipedia entry will really spoil anything on how he gets left behind.
I don't think so either. Rather than the exact "how" of the stranding, my concern is that while the novel has all the time it needs to make it believable a movie may not.
I'm making too much of an issue over what is probably less-than-accurate (if only in its brevity) wording in the article anyway.
::)Why so long , My reasoning is there are quite few comic theme " Blockbusters" , and that is putting it mildly. The last Star Trek: Next Generation was released at the same time as the " Lord Of the Rings : The Return of The King,and that bad scheduling ended TNG on the
big screen. I hope "Prometheus 2 before the Comic explosion (Bigger ) ..
I think the sub-par movie ended TNG on the big screen.
That and the tagline that indicated this would be the last TNG movie.
Quote from: SM on Aug 12, 2014, 03:57:20 AM
I think the sub-par movie ended TNG on the big screen.
That and the tagline that indicated this would be the last TNG movie.
I agree .
I guess the movie is not coming out on March 2016 now. I bet Batman vs. Superman coming out in March made Fox worry about the movie being released on a bad month. Maybe October 2016 would work to release around Halloween time.
^ March 2016 is the date for The Martian, Ridley Scott's next film.
So Prometheus 2 is now dead?
Why?
Wait, so the script has actually been written... damn, now those are the kind of titties I'd like to see leaked. Yes I have no patience.
Script was written yonks ago.
Yea but I assumed when they said written they meant "in the process of being re-written". :P
Sounded a lot more formal this time.