Poll
Question:
Do you care about canon?
Option 1: Yes
votes: 26
Option 2: No
votes: 15
Do you care about whether or not a particular Alien/vs/Predator story is considered canon? And why? Why do you, as a fan, care about canon?
Where the poll at.
Yes. I want to know what's happening in the fictional universe in clearly invested enough in to be a member of a fan site.
No. It's not real and as long as the story is fun, then that's good, and future filmmakers are likely to ignore anything they want anyway.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2024, 09:10:36 AMWhere the poll at.
Suppose I'm more interested in people's reasonings, but I'll add a poll!
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 02, 2024, 09:03:57 AMDo you care about whether or not a particular Alien/vs/Predator story is considered canon? And why? Why do you, as a fan, care about canon?
I like canon as a kind of through line of narrative and not going off the rails. Almost like a sort of QC for the main story.
But I also like stories that go off the rails and explore the weirder possibilities. I just like knowing they're not going to become part of the norm in ongoing stories.
Like, I like Herk Mondo, but I would not want him to be part of the canon.
if it prevents me from arguing about something because it isn t on screen(theatrical releases) then it annoys me. other than that i really don t care.
the reason is that when alien (for instance) was made , the creators had certain ideas and intentions in mind. when aliens came out some of those intentions/ideas changed or was made redundant. so things change and the intellectual property owner can also change that.
as long as i know what the original intentions were and what now the theatrical release canon is (and additions subtraction by the ipo) then i don t care.
BECAUSE
i can have a discussion about any of those knowing what they are.
@Xenomrph
Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2024, 09:59:05 AMLike, I like Herk Mondo, but I would not want him to be part of the canon
I wouldn't mind a Herk Mondo flick. That would be something different to say the least
On the matter of canon: I don't care really as long as I can have access to the entries I enjoy re-visiting. I love Alien 3, I kinda like Resurrection, Prometheus is just there for me and I dig Covenant. But I wouldn't be terribly upset if the new stories overwrite any of these as long as it's for filmakers' creativity sake. I like first AvP movie and it's already excluded from canon and I'm OK with it (I'm glad Requiem is tho)
I voted "No," but as with everything else, there are various degrees to which this is true. I'm definitely all in on separate Alien and Predator canons, but I'm also flexible within those separate timelines as well.
I've made it very clear on the boards just how much I love Alien: Covenant, but that being said, I don't really ever find myself thinking about that movie specifically when I watch Alien. I do like seeing (and talking about) them existing on the same timeline, but in the moment when I'm actually watching them, that's not what really matters to me. And while I wasn't really feeling Blomkamp's idea just because I don't think that what we were seeing from it looked very good, I wasn't overly precious about the ramifications it would have had on the canon/lore. I love Alien 3 and I don't want to see it bumped from a (the?) continuity, but the movie will always exist; it'll always be there. If there's going to be a split timeline that goes in a different direction after Aliens, I'll still always have Alien 3 and I'd admittedly be curious to see what someone else does with an alternative idea.
Predator, I'm even looser with, if only because the movies themselves are all, functionally, standalone films. There's little bits of connective tissue, yeah, but there's no reason why you shouldn't just be able to pick any Predator movie at random out of a pile, put it on, and (quality of the overall movie permitting, of course) have a good time with it as its own thing.
As for AVP, I've never been one that's really cared for it conceptually (probably because my main experience with the crossover is from the movies, which I find to A.) be bad in their own right, and B.) I don't like their silly attempts to merge a full-fledged continuity between the Alien and Predator movies that existed at the time with their Weyland and Yutani shenanigans). That being said, over the last year or so (since Prey's release, pretty much) I've come to accept that we will eventually see another stab at an AVP film, probably sooner rather than later, and I've started to really soften on the idea, provided it does something more interesting with the material that it has to play with than the two movies we've gotten. Though I'd still prefer it to be totally outside of the Alien movies' canon, if at all possible.
And then there's the EU. There's some pieces I really love (Alien: Isolation, The Cold Forge, Into Charybdis, Phalanx, Inhuman Condition, Sacrifice, Salvation, Dead Orbit, etc.), but with the POSSIBLE exception of Isolation, I tend to see the EU as something separate from the universe of the films, if only because the films have proven time and time again that they take no issue with walking all over the games/books/comics, and because if they are fully separate, then that would allow the EU material to have the freedom to really experiment and try new things that would never work on screen and just have fun with it. A lot of the older Dark Horse comics feel like that. Hell, Alien: Resurrection feels like that, despite being a movie we actually got on screen.
I don't think Alien and/or Predator should go the way of, say, the Halloween franchise with numerous hard restarts every few years that try to shift the public's perception of the franchise and make you forget what's come before, but I don't mind the idea of the canon being something more akin to the Godzilla or James Bond franchises where continuity can take a back seat in favor of the individual entry's intent (either within the tapestry of a larger universe or as a total standalone, varying entry to entry) taking priority.
Not as much as I used to.
Mainly I want the canon to be whatever ends up with Prometheus stricken from the records.
I've always considered the films their own thing and the EU its own thing, and it is pointless to even try to reconcile the EU at this point, so I'm also kind of in the f**k it stage that takes every story and gauges its individual merit as I consume it.
I don't necessarily agree that this is the best philosophy a franchise should have, but every time some EU story was supposed to tie into the films, I remember it immediately qetting schwacked by the movies and the movies themselves are rearranging and making new lore all the time.
I can enjoy non-canon entries quite fine. Non-canon does not mean something is not good or not fun, some are probably better than some of the canon stories. That being said, canon is usually what we consider to "have happened" as it has become more or less synonymous withn continuity, thus canon entries have a more permanent affect on history and "timeline".
So I do care about canon because I believe films/media need to be careful what they then add to the lore of the franchise.
When something is canon, it can make it harder to accept when something that was added is bad than if it was non-canon. With the former, we have to accept it as part of the franchise until it can be officially retconned. With the latter, its just a what if or alternate story that has no bearing on the main continuity.
My own opinion here of course.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 02, 2024, 12:09:20 PMI voted "No," but as with everything else, there are various degrees to which this is true. I'm definitely all in on separate Alien and Predator canons, but I'm also flexible within those separate timelines as well.
I've made it very clear on the boards just how much I love Alien: Covenant, but that being said, I don't really ever find myself thinking about that movie specifically when I watch Alien. I do like seeing (and talking about) them existing on the same timeline, but in the moment when I'm actually watching them, that's not what really matters to me. And while I wasn't really feeling Blomkamp's idea just because I don't think that what we were seeing from it looked very good, I wasn't overly precious about the ramifications it would have had on the canon/lore. I love Alien 3 and I don't want to see it bumped from a (the?) continuity, but the movie will always exist; it'll always be there. If there's going to be a split timeline that goes in a different direction after Aliens, I'll still always have Alien 3 and I'd admittedly be curious to see what someone else does with an alternative idea.
Predator, I'm even looser with, if only because the movies themselves are all, functionally, standalone films. There's little bits of connective tissue, yeah, but there's no reason why you shouldn't just be able to pick any Predator movie at random out of a pile, put it on, and (quality of the overall movie permitting, of course) have a good time with it as its own thing.
As for AVP, I've never been one that's really cared for it conceptually (probably because my main experience with the crossover is from the movies, which I find to A.) be bad in their own right, and B.) I don't like their silly attempts to merge a full-fledged continuity between the Alien and Predator movies that existed at the time with their Weyland and Yutani shenanigans). That being said, over the last year or so (since Prey's release, pretty much) I've come to accept that we will eventually see another stab at an AVP film, probably sooner rather than later, and I've started to really soften on the idea, provided it does something more interesting with the material that it has to play with than the two movies we've gotten. Though I'd still prefer it to be totally outside of the Alien movies' canon, if at all possible.
And then there's the EU. There's some pieces I really love (Alien: Isolation, The Cold Forge, Into Charybdis, Phalanx, Inhuman Condition, Sacrifice, Salvation, Dead Orbit, etc.), but with the POSSIBLE exception of Isolation, I tend to see the EU as something separate from the universe of the films, if only because the films have proven time and time again that they take no issue with walking all over the games/books/comics, and because if they are fully separate, then that would allow the EU material to have the freedom to really experiment and try new things that would never work on screen and just have fun with it. A lot of the older Dark Horse comics feel like that. Hell, Alien: Resurrection feels like that, despite being a movie we actually got on screen.
I don't think Alien and/or Predator should go the way of, say, the Halloween franchise with numerous hard restarts every few years that try to shift the public's perception of the franchise and make you forget what's come before, but I don't mind the idea of the canon being something more akin to the Godzilla or James Bond franchises where continuity can take a back seat in favor of the individual entry's intent (either within the tapestry of a larger universe or as a total standalone, varying entry to entry) taking priority.
Well said
Also
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 02, 2024, 12:09:20 PMInhuman Condition, Sacrifice
(https://media.tenor.com/TwTKD9LK7TUAAAAM/yes-jack-nicholson.gif)
Voted No, but the answer is more complicated than that. In truth, I only see Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 as "immutable" canon (or very close to it). Everything else is as canon as I need it to be for whatever story or thought I'm currently entertaining, but can be dropped just as fast. Whether it happens to be "official" or not is quite immaterial to me, whether I'm including or excluding a given piece in a given moment.
I make my canon.
Canon for the ones in charge is just usually whatever they are trying to push at the moment to sell and it changes when its convenient for them. Its mainly marketing, they don't really put much effort in trying to make the entries fit in and make sense within the same continuity. Plus they make such dumb mistakes over the years so. Blah.
Yes, I *strongly* believe canon matters. Canonicity is what makes sense of the fictional universe we are enjoying, and (should) bring coherence. When something doesn't fit, it breaks the immersion of the worlds I'm living through the eyes of the characters. The universe shatters.
Does that mean I can't enjoy non-canon stories? Not at all! On the contrary, some of the EU stories are great fun! The latest titan books seem to follow their own canon which includes recent games, and they tie in to each other nicely. But it's not *prime* canon, and it's important to differentiate between the two. Why? Because whilst these stories are fun, oversaturation of content, with too many chefs fingers in the pie can also break worlds.
I'm not adverse to multiple timelines with their own canonical events to each other; Toho's Gojira /Godzilla franchise has multiple timelines, each following on from the first movie only as a starting point (Showa era, Heisei era, Millenium era, etc). Halloween has 3 timelines, Texas Chainsaw has multiple.. sometimes this can add to the problem... (Terminator is a prime example of constant reboots and timeline changes making everything worse) other times, it can nicely reboot a series that has gone off the rails and get it back on track (I'd argue some of the recent Texas Chainsaw movies feel more in line with the original, than the cheesier sequels in the 80s and 90s for example).
To me, prime canon in the Alien Universe is, and always will be 'Alien' 'Aliens' and 'Alien 3' (regardless of which cut) everything else is nice bonus. I love the prequels, I watch them regularly; but I love them in the same way I may love an Alien-universe game, or EU novels. That doesn't make them less of a good movie... but I do feel their canonicity is definitely up for debate, regardless what Fox, Disney or Ridley Scott says (remember, Fox once said Colonial Marines was canon.. not so much these days). The fact the new Alien TV show is omitting the prequels and only taking the original trilogy into consideration actually peaks my interest! Does that mean if the new show is amazing, that the prequels don't exist anymore? Not at all! They completely exist, in their *own* canon, and always will (and can always be enjoyed).
Without canon, chaos reigns; you'd have people watching Alien 1979, with a mindset that Predators exist in this universe, that Space Jockeys and Engineers co-exist, that Predators hunted Aliens on Earth centuries before an android creates them, that the runner on Fury 161 burst from both a dog and on ox; meaning there were two runners, etc... canon is the law, it is the truth that guides the viewer. It should always matter. That being said, we as an audience don't always have to agree with what is *stated* to be canon.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Apr 02, 2024, 04:27:12 PMVoted No, but the answer is more complicated than that. In truth, I only see Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 as "immutable" canon (or very close to it). Everything else is as canon as I need it to be for whatever story or thought I'm currently entertaining, but can be dropped just as fast. Whether it happens to be "official" or not is quite immaterial to me, whether I'm including or excluding a given piece in a given moment.
100% agree on your immutable canon choice; I'm the same on that one.
did you know? I am a simple vicious creature😅👁🦇👁👉👈👾👾👾
😌👉👈....I just want good
𝔄𝔩𝔦𝔢𝔫 / 𝔓𝔯𝔢𝔡𝔞𝔱𝔬𝔯 / 𝔄𝔙𝔓 media. So nothing really matters
👀👉👈canon-wise thinking I mean. I'm flexible with that I guess(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/SVZK3.gif)👉👈(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/SVZKm.gif)😃oh and I voted
'𝔑𝔬' 😅🙏
(https://s12.gifyu.com/images/SVZK6.gif)
Spoiler
:'(👉👈🥀🍁🍁🌦🌌🌠🌙
(https://s12.gifyu.com/images/SVZKi.gif)
At first I did but overtime I'm more reliant on what I choose. What is canon or not. The movies are kind of all over the place with Canon in general. Like I saw in the iceberg that the predator from 2018 had connections with the AvP including the tails spear.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 02, 2024, 06:33:38 PMdid you know? I am a simple vicious creature😅👁🦇👁👉👈👾👾👾😌👉👈....I just want good 𝔄𝔩𝔦𝔢𝔫 / 𝔓𝔯𝔢𝔡𝔞𝔱𝔬𝔯 / 𝔄𝔙𝔓 media. So nothing really matters
👀👉👈canon-wise thinking I mean. I'm flexible with that I guesshttps://s9.gifyu.com/images/SVZK3.gif👉👈https://s9.gifyu.com/images/SVZKm.gif😃oh and I voted '𝔑𝔬' 😅🙏
https://s12.gifyu.com/images/SVZK6.gif
Spoiler
:'(👉👈🥀🍁🍁🌦🌌🌠🌙
(https://s12.gifyu.com/images/SVZKi.gif)
Quote from: Thatguy2068 on Apr 02, 2024, 06:35:25 PMAt first I did but overtime I'm more reliant on what I choose. What is canon or not. The movies are kind of all over the place with Canon in general. Like I saw in the iceberg that the predator from 2018 had connections with the AvP including the tails spear.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 02, 2024, 06:33:38 PMdid you know? I am a simple vicious creature😅👁🦇👁👉👈👾👾👾😌👉👈....I just want good 𝔄𝔩𝔦𝔢𝔫 / 𝔓𝔯𝔢𝔡𝔞𝔱𝔬𝔯 / 𝔄𝔙𝔓 media. So nothing really matters
👀👉👈canon-wise thinking I mean. I'm flexible with that I guesshttps://s9.gifyu.com/images/SVZK3.gif👉👈https://s9.gifyu.com/images/SVZKm.gif😃oh and I voted '𝔑𝔬' 😅🙏
https://s12.gifyu.com/images/SVZK6.gif
Spoiler
:'(👉👈🥀🍁🍁🌦🌌🌠🌙
(https://s12.gifyu.com/images/SVZKi.gif)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7N48hcbB8c
Is that bad? :(
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 02, 2024, 06:48:28 PMQuote from: Thatguy2068 on Apr 02, 2024, 06:35:25 PMAt first I did but overtime I'm more reliant on what I choose. What is canon or not. The movies are kind of all over the place with Canon in general. Like I saw in the iceberg that the predator from 2018 had connections with the AvP including the tails spear.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 02, 2024, 06:33:38 PMdid you know? I am a simple vicious creature😅👁🦇👁👉👈👾👾👾😌👉👈....I just want good 𝔄𝔩𝔦𝔢𝔫 / 𝔓𝔯𝔢𝔡𝔞𝔱𝔬𝔯 / 𝔄𝔙𝔓 media. So nothing really matters
👀👉👈canon-wise thinking I mean. I'm flexible with that I guesshttps://s9.gifyu.com/images/SVZK3.gif👉👈https://s9.gifyu.com/images/SVZKm.gif😃oh and I voted '𝔑𝔬' 😅🙏
https://s12.gifyu.com/images/SVZK6.gif
Spoiler
:'(👉👈🥀🍁🍁🌦🌌🌠🌙
(https://s12.gifyu.com/images/SVZKi.gif)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7N48hcbB8c
Is that bad? :(
No, it just odd no offense
Then again, I did say a question about whether Bishop is breedable or not.
Quote from: Thatguy2068 on Apr 02, 2024, 06:51:06 PMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 02, 2024, 06:48:28 PMQuote from: Thatguy2068 on Apr 02, 2024, 06:35:25 PMAt first I did but overtime I'm more reliant on what I choose. What is canon or not. The movies are kind of all over the place with Canon in general. Like I saw in the iceberg that the predator from 2018 had connections with the AvP including the tails spear.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 02, 2024, 06:33:38 PMdid you know? I am a simple vicious creature😅👁🦇👁👉👈👾👾👾😌👉👈....I just want good 𝔄𝔩𝔦𝔢𝔫 / 𝔓𝔯𝔢𝔡𝔞𝔱𝔬𝔯 / 𝔄𝔙𝔓 media. So nothing really matters
👀👉👈canon-wise thinking I mean. I'm flexible with that I guesshttps://s9.gifyu.com/images/SVZK3.gif👉👈https://s9.gifyu.com/images/SVZKm.gif😃oh and I voted '𝔑𝔬' 😅🙏
https://s12.gifyu.com/images/SVZK6.gif
Spoiler
:'(👉👈🥀🍁🍁🌦🌌🌠🌙
(https://s12.gifyu.com/images/SVZKi.gif)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7N48hcbB8c
Is that bad? :(
No, it just odd no offense
:'(👍
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/SVZTI.gif)
Quote from: Thatguy2068 on Apr 02, 2024, 06:51:06 PMThen again, I did say a question about whether Bishop is breedable or not.
Aleluya! ^^🙏
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 02, 2024, 06:33:38 PM...
What on earth is this post? It's absolute chaos, even for you Jonesy.
It looks like an old MySpace page.
...sounds nostalgic (https://s9.gifyu.com/images/SVZES.gif)
To a point but it's not really had any quality control for a few years now, and it can be redefined arbitrarily that it's really neither here nor there. Some story not being canon or breaking canon can still be cool, and ones that strictly hew to it might be shite.
Quote from: SM on Apr 02, 2024, 08:38:31 PMit can be redefined arbitrarily that it's really neither here nor there.
Very funny to me that Titan and Marvel are the two ongoing branches of EU, but Titan stuff acknowledges Dark Horse characters and (to my knowledge) nothing from the current crop of Marvel comics. Meanwhile on the Predator side of things, the Marvel comics seemingly
are bringing back Dark Horse characters/storylines?
2007ish to 2017ish was the most awful period for Alien licensing honestly, we started getting really good stuff from then abouts onwards, Isolation and some graphic novels aside.
Isolation was almost right in the middle of this "awful period".
I did acknowledge that? That aside I said.
Sorry - misread.
No problem.
I actually like a loose canon.
Just to pick on you both here as this is the main reason I find discussing canon frustrating within fan communities.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Apr 02, 2024, 04:27:12 PMVoted No, but the answer is more complicated than that. In truth, I only see Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 as "immutable" canon (or very close to it). Everything else is as canon as I need it to be for whatever story or thought I'm currently entertaining, but can be dropped just as fast. Whether it happens to be "official" or not is quite immaterial to me, whether I'm including or excluding a given piece in a given moment.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Apr 02, 2024, 04:52:59 PMDoes that mean I can't enjoy non-canon stories? Not at all! On the contrary, some of the EU stories are great fun! The latest titan books seem to follow their own canon which includes recent games, and they tie in to each other nicely. But it's not *prime* canon, and it's important to differentiate between the two. Why? Because whilst these stories are fun, oversaturation of content, with too many chefs fingers in the pie can also break worlds.
Canon isn't what we see it as though. There is no "immutable" canon or "prime" canon because that's not something we as a fandom define. In certain regards, the films will and have often disregarded the EU because that's a nature of licensed property but the EU is and can still be considered "canon" by the powers that be. Which very much became the case following the Titan relaunch.
So my question isn't about what you consider canon because that's not a decision the fandom gets to make. It's why do you care what Fox/Studios/Disney considers as canon?
(hopefully that doesn't come across as being harsh there, very much not my intention but you know tone and the internet so explaining my intent there)
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 02, 2024, 08:52:43 PMQuote from: SM on Apr 02, 2024, 08:38:31 PMit can be redefined arbitrarily that it's really neither here nor there.
Very funny to me that Titan and Marvel are the two ongoing branches of EU, but Titan stuff acknowledges Dark Horse characters and (to my knowledge) nothing from the current crop of Marvel comics. Meanwhile on the Predator side of things, the Marvel comics seemingly are bringing back Dark Horse characters/storylines?
Just to throw it out there - Marvel's Alien has made some references to the Dark Horse side of things too. Nothing as substantial as revisiting characters though.
"It's why do you care what Fox/Studios/Disney considers as canon? "
i don t care as long as i can differentiate between what is "what Fox/Studios/Disney considers as canon?" and what isn t.
i have my head canon
AND
i have my knowledge on original intentions/ideas at the theatrical release(s) time (for all the movies)
AND
how subsequent movies and other licensed media may have changed that.
the prequels even if canon doesn t change my theatrical realease take of alien.
it makes it impossable to discuss things if you can t differentiate between those.
corporal sorry . your question was aimed at those who do care.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 03, 2024, 07:53:32 AMSo my question isn't about what you consider canon because that's not a decision the fandom gets to make. It's why do you care what Fox/Studios/Disney considers as canon?
(hopefully that doesn't come across as being harsh there, very much not my intention but you know tone and the internet so explaining my intent there)
Ahh! I see; well, I guess I care what Fox/Studios/Disney considers canon, as even if I as a fan don't agree with or accept that canon, and roll with personal head canon instead, the fact is a wrong decision can be damaging. Imagine if you will, a world where the next Alien movie follows Alien 3 and stars Micheal Biehn as Hicks due to Colonial Marines, cementing the game as 'fact'. Sure you could ignore the game if you don't like it, but if the movie happens to be good and directly references it in multiple ways, you then have to either accept that the game happened, or ignore all future sequels that follow. Or if they say "AvPR is 100% canon to Alien" and starts adding Predators to our alien stories. Or picture if you will, someone who really dislikes the prequels, who ignores them like they never happened, happy with the original trilogy, but wants more Marine content, buys Fireteam Elite to find the prequels /pathogen pretty integral to the story. In these type of situations, I don't care what they CLAIM is canon so much, it's more that in an extreme case, a wrong call can have an undesirable butterfly effect that affects everything else. (If that makes sense?)
And regarding my 'prime canon' comments, just to put that in perspective, I do strongly believe in primary and secondary canon, even within the studios; the titan books may currently be considered canon by the powers that be, but then I'm sure 'Earth Hive' - 'Female War' were the same prior to Alien 3. When you deal with multiple conflicting timelines, I don't think it's as black and white as 'what they say is canon' (there are things that can be overwritten in a heartbeat without a second thought, and some things that will always be a staple; nobody is ever going to say "Alien and Aliens never happened!" For example); How would you determine what the studios consider canon in the 'Halloween' series? Halloween 1-6? Halloween 1, 2, H20 and Resurrection? Or Halloween 1, Kills and Ends? We know what they are currently promoting , but even they made it clear it was 'alternate events'. Have we even had an official word on what Fox/Disney considers canon in the Alien Universe, beyond some off-hand comments at the time of sales of 'Out of the Shadows' and during the promotion of 'Colonial Marines'? 😊 (I ask as I genuinely don't know) I'm guessing the upcoming encyclopaedia may shed some light? I'd like to think there's zero AvP content in there lol, and that novels and comics were kept out of it. 😅
(And all good regarding post tone! 😃👍)
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Apr 03, 2024, 11:56:35 AMI'm guessing the upcoming encyclopaedia may shed some light? I'd like to think there's zero AvP content in there lol, and that novels and comics were kept out of it. 😅
From what I understand, that encyclopedia will be covering all six currently released films (no
Romulus, though, despite the book's numerous delays now setting its release for after
Romulus), with no mention of anything AVP or EU.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 03, 2024, 12:04:51 PMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Apr 03, 2024, 11:56:35 AMI'm guessing the upcoming encyclopaedia may shed some light? I'd like to think there's zero AvP content in there lol, and that novels and comics were kept out of it. 😅
From what I understand, that encyclopedia will be covering all six currently released films (no Romulus, though, despite the book's numerous delays now setting its release for after Romulus), with no mention of anything AVP or EU.
That's a shame regarding Romulus, but good news on the EU front. I guess perhaps this is indication of what is officially considered canon. I wonder how they consider Isolation at this point, being only 5 years apart from Romulus.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Apr 03, 2024, 11:56:35 AMImagine if you will, a world where the next Alien movie follows Alien 3 and stars Micheal Biehn as Hicks due to Colonial Marines, cementing the game as 'fact'. Sure you could ignore the game if you don't like it, but if the movie happens to be good and directly references it in multiple ways, you then have to either accept that the game happened, or ignore all future sequels that follow
To you, what makes that damaging? Because ACM wasn't good?
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Apr 03, 2024, 11:56:35 AMHave we even had an official word on what Fox/Disney considers canon in the Alien Universe, beyond some off-hand comments at the time of sales of 'Out of the Shadows' and during the promotion of 'Colonial Marines'? 😊 (I ask as I genuinely don't know)
Which is another reason why I find canon frustrating. You have second hand comments from people like Gaska who wrote Fox's internal bible, or from people like SM, Clara or myself who have worked on projects. And randoms on the internet don't want to believe the words of other randoms on the internet, especially if they offer an opposing comment. Fox doesn't keep a public facing list of what is considered canon, so you have to rely on second hand comments from people who have bumped up against it. But the thing to note is, these studios do have internal franchise bibles or timelines. I assisted - very minutely - on both Alien and Predators.
ACM's not merely bad, it's abhorrent, it came about through embezzlement and it is attached to an alleged sex criminal.
Anything legitimising it I inherently dislike from the word go.
The whole Hicks being alive thing was poorly done, Michael Biehn didn't enjoy his time doing it.
If there is a bible, perhaps they should actually show it completely, even if its always an evolving thing.
I wish to say.
I don't have an issue with a film that ties into the opening of Alien³ inherently, but it must be smart with the retroactive continuity, don't actually have the legacy characters as active players.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Apr 03, 2024, 01:42:01 PMI wish to say.
I don't have an issue with a film that ties into the opening of Alien³ inherently, but it must be smart with the retroactive continuity, don't actually have the legacy characters as active players.
So the egg crawling onto the Sulaco from Renaissance Station is valid, then? We should update the "Egg" thread with that new bit of information.
I think once Ripley was no longer the lead, the canon can be loose, allowing a legenderium rather than a strict canon. This is why in some ways I like each recent film has had different lead: Shaw, Daniels, and Cailee's character. It prevents the saga from getting trapped around a singular person or family like The Skywalkers.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Apr 03, 2024, 01:36:18 PMIf there is a bible, perhaps they should actually show it completely, even if its always an evolving thing.
But why? What difference would it make to you?
Because it is good to know the actual official timeline is and what did or did not happen.
Quote from: E. Shaw on Apr 03, 2024, 03:39:54 AMI actually like a loose canon.
A loose canon can be dangerous and unpredictable.
Quote from: 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔈𝔦𝔤𝔥𝔱𝔥 𝔓𝔞𝔰𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔤𝔢𝔯 on Apr 03, 2024, 07:03:46 PMQuote from: E. Shaw on Apr 03, 2024, 03:39:54 AMI actually like a loose canon.
A loose canon can be dangerous and unpredictable.
(https://y.yarn.co/aeaa7238-07c4-4fdd-8dd1-b4f853fd3cba_text.gif)
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 03, 2024, 07:53:32 AMIt's why do you care what Fox/Studios/Disney considers as canon?
I don't.
Because I run entirely on an ever shifting headcanon, not whichever parts a marketing division decides are "real". It's more fun that way.
Has Disney even defined what is canon now? When I worked with Fox the unwritten rule was publicly avoid the topic and let people think what they like. Internally it was a little stricter to try and maintain some semblance of continuity.
I think everyone's pretty much nailed this. I feel like there's a common core every fan believes but with all the new entires in both franchises it makes it kind of go off the rails so people are forced to pick and choose their own canon and that's kind of what I do.
Sidebar I saw someone say they wanted to see another AVP. I do hope they take another go at an AVP but honor each species properly versus making it a giant action flick. It has the potential of a great storyline but they can't just throw the species on the screen and say have at it. Oh and for god sakes set it in the future with colonial marines and not on earth anymore
People are indeed forced to pick and choose. They did AvP as, effectively, prequels to Alien by including Weyland and Yutani. Ridley went 'nah' and did something different. Now it looks like Hawley is doing something different again. Even if your mindset is 'just the films/TV are canon' - well, which ones?
Quote from: SM on Apr 03, 2024, 09:42:55 PMPeople are indeed forced to pick and choose. They did AvP as, effectively, prequels to Alien by including Weyland and Yutani. Ridley went 'nah' and did something different. Now it looks like Hawley is doing something different again. Even if your mindset is 'just the films/TV are canon' - well, which ones?
THIS.
And it *could* be somewhat problematic; Let's just imagine (hope) that Romulus is amazing, and a movie worthy of sitting alongside as a companion to the original trilogy. And then the TV series goes above and beyond all expectations and is brilliant, and (as the creator has stated) it ignores the prequels. Those who weren't keen on David creating the alien rejoices, TV series + original movie is their preferred timeline..except we know Romulus does indeed reference both the prequels, the Prometheus and the pathogen... so then you *may* be forced to choose between an awesome TV show, and an awesome movie when it comes to 'the facts if what happened' (narratively speaking I mean, of course, there's nothing stopping you enjoying both as entertainment, along with the prequels, but from a "this is what happened" perspective, it gets wooly. And those kinds of contradictions can severely impact suspension of disbelief (egg aside, look at how upset people are at something as simple as incorrect cryotubes in Alien 3) - people are fine with acid bleeding monsters that grow inside a host, faster than light travel and cassette futurism... so long as that universe makes sense into itself. Contradictions break the immersion (
@Corp. Hicks i think this also pretty much sums up how I'd answer your question regarding Colonial Marines) 😊 it's not about a particular story being good or bad, it's more "do I believe this happened within my movie universe" - look no further than these forums at how people are already getting upset at the prospect of big chap being found in space. Canon is *supposed* to lay clear foundations of what is 'truth' in the story, and what are merely 'what-ifs'. Canon *should* be important, but as studios don't always give it the respect it deserves, it's always going to fall to fans to assert their own interpretation of canon.
Of course I care! It even being a question that allows people to say no with impunity is sending me into a moral panic! >:(
Canon ultimately only really matters in terms of a common point of reference for nerds like us.
If the TV show comes out and is great, 99.9% of people aren't going to care about David's shenanigans.
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2024, 12:01:02 AMCanon ultimately only really matters in terms of a common point of reference for nerds like us.
I think this is the extent that I care about some officially sanctioned canon. A line one can draw in the sand and say "If we're going to ask questions, here's the available information to draw answers from, and here's what we can ignore".
Outside of that, I don't really care.
God, I miss the canon wars of old. They were downright Homeric in their epic scope.
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2024, 12:01:02 AMCanon ultimately only really matters in terms of a common point of reference for nerds like us.
I prefer the term alien/predatoroligist Myself.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Apr 04, 2024, 12:18:29 AMGod, I miss the canon wars of old. They were downright Homeric in their epic scope.
It's a game for the young.
I stopped paying attention to what Fox (or Disney or anybody else) says about canon after MRPH drug up the old quote of the guy Fox allocated to DH saying that all the EU was canon. This was pre prequels, might've even been before AVP, but post Alien Res.
I was like what?
You mean the comics are canon? The same ones that have Aliens on earth? Why would WY go out of business looking for them and allow themselves to be bought out by wally world when at that point there were infestations across the galaxy, and why didn't the governments on earth tell its successor the USM about the GLOBAL INFESTATION so it didn't waste its time cloning Ripley?
They tried to cover that mistake off with an Alien Resurrection era big deletion of knowledge, but nobody is going to forget about the Aliens that took over the planet in just 200 years time.......especially with the Aliens STILL ON EARTH.
The silly idgits.
Had it been run like George Lucas era Star Wars EU, I might've had differing opinions about it. They had essentially lore masters overseeing everything to make sure it didn't get jumble f**ked.
I think there are possibly ways to have the knowledge of the Alien on Earth erased. It was being floated at Fox before Disney took over. The term 'memory hole' was being used. Dunno if we could've pulled it off, and kinda glad we didn't need to.
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2024, 03:26:23 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Apr 04, 2024, 12:18:29 AMGod, I miss the canon wars of old. They were downright Homeric in their epic scope.
It's a game for the young.
Ain't nobody got time for it now.
QuoteI think there are possibly ways to have the knowledge of the Alien on Earth erased. It was being floated at Fox before Disney took over. The term 'memory hole' was being used. Dunno if we could've pulled it off, and kinda glad we didn't need to.
No way it would ever work. We still have cave paintings from when people were hunting wooly mammoths.
No way is any technical glitch going to erase a global infestation in a digital era. If it somehow could, mofos would take out a pen and paper and right shit down. Not to mention the oral history of people telling their children and grand children about the earth war with an invasive species that nearly killed everyone on earth.
Not only that, corporations were stockpiling Aliens well into the 200 year gap between Aliens and Alien Res. ON EARTH.
That whole idea was dumb as f**k.
It wouldn't have been a glitch. The USM would be an authoritarian government for a period of around 150 years, and the knowledge would have been deliberately erased. Over the course of decades stories about Aliens invading Earth would gradually fade to conspiracy theories to ultimately nothing. It would have ignored all the old Dark Horse stuff (which definitely wouldn't have worked as they were not only on Earth but every second planet as well).
But similar to the story I concocted to make Prometheus fit with AvP a few years earlier - like I said, I'm kinda glad they didn't go with it.
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2024, 07:32:41 AMIt wouldn't have been a glitch. The USM would be an authoritarian government for a period of around 150 years, and the knowledge would have been deliberately erased.
To what end, exactly?
The entirety of space is successfully governed by a single government? We can't even manage that on one planet.
*confused angry noises*
I still think the USM should be retconned as a neo-socialist regime like the UPP.
(https://i.imgur.com/uCWsqXf.png)
Dat red star.
Damn commies.
Quote from: SM on Apr 03, 2024, 09:16:54 PMHas Disney even defined what is canon now?
Not as far as I'm aware. Last I heard Marvel was just able to do its own thing, with no real collaboration or crossover with what the other stuff was doing. Not sure if that's changed in the last year or so.
I want a good story first and foremost, but canon to me is important if they're going out of their way to set something in the same timeline.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Apr 03, 2024, 10:57:51 PMCanon *should* be important, but as studios don't always give it the respect it deserves, it's always going to fall to fans to assert their own interpretation of canon.
But this is always the thing I come back to. Fans don't get to interpret canon because that's not what canon is. Canon is the "truth" as defined by Studios/Disney.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2024, 12:04:03 AMQuote from: SM on Apr 04, 2024, 12:01:02 AMCanon ultimately only really matters in terms of a common point of reference for nerds like us.
I think this is the extent that I care about some officially sanctioned canon. A line one can draw in the sand and say "If we're going to ask questions, here's the available information to draw answers from, and here's what we can ignore".
Outside of that, I don't really care.
And this is one of the circumstances where I completely agree and understand. But then, without the studios actually letting the fandom know what they consider canon, what's the point in us caring? We can define our own point of reference for discussion.
Obviously folk like SM were in a position to know what was canon. But when you have randoms online refusing to take his word because it might mean something they dislike is considered canon, it gets in the way of reasonable discourse.
Sorry if I'm sounding like a dick or being pedantic here. It's a topic we're discussing on the podcast shortly and I'm trying to get some interesting POVs from folk.
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2024, 06:57:24 AMI think there are possibly ways to have the knowledge of the Alien on Earth erased. It was being floated at Fox before Disney took over. The term 'memory hole' was being used. Dunno if we could've pulled it off, and kinda glad we didn't need to.
I'm very curious about this? The plans I saw had it just all happening again.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 04, 2024, 08:44:08 AMBut then, without the studios actually letting the fandom know what they consider canon, what's the point in us caring? We can define our own point of reference for discussion.
People care because they like their fiction to have a logic and a continuity that they can learn and memorise and be knowledgeable on. They like it to feel like an actual place, an actual history, and a canon delivered from on high provides that guideline. Without it, people will make their own.
And it's not just fiction. Just look at the real world when people's firmly held beliefs get challenged by new information, or meet people who don't have the same opinions.
We like rules and principles and guidelines and facts that say something is right and something is wrong because that's how we make sense of things. When anything and everything can happen simultaneously in a contradictory manner, it spoils one's ability to engage and immerse as fully.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2024, 08:58:21 AMWe like rules and principles and guidelines and facts that say something is right and something is wrong because that's how we make sense of things. When anything and everything can happen simultaneously in a contradictory manner, it spoils one's ability to engage and immerse as fully.
But anything can happen simultaneously. It's fiction. Does the possibility of multiple timelines effect your ability to enjoy fiction?
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2024, 08:58:21 AMPeople care because they like their fiction to have a logic and a continuity that they can learn and memorise and be knowledgeable on. They like it to feel like an actual place, an actual history, and a canon delivered from on high provides that guideline. Without it, people will make their own.
But what about when we're not privy to what is canon directly from the horses mouth?
(again, sorry for any tone)
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 04, 2024, 09:19:24 AMDoes the possibility of multiple timelines effect your ability to enjoy fiction?
You can run two races at the same time, but each race can only have one winner. If there are multiple timelines, then you need to disambiguate the timelines, which is effectively establishing several canons.
And, personally, yes, multiple timelines do affect my enjoyment because it removes the stakes. Your favourite character died? Don't worry, they're still alive in this other timeline! Death is meaningless, anything can and will happen.
QuoteQuote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2024, 08:58:21 AMPeople care because they like their fiction to have a logic and a continuity that they can learn and memorise and be knowledgeable on. They like it to feel like an actual place, an actual history, and a canon delivered from on high provides that guideline. Without it, people will make their own.
But what about when we're not privy to what is canon directly from the horses mouth?
You actually quoted my response to this, I've bolded it for you. In the absence of an official line people will try to make their own because that sense of coherence is important to them.
Basically for many fans it's important that there is a canon, regardless of where it ends up coming from. Ideally from the source, but failing that, they'll do it themselves.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Apr 04, 2024, 07:06:45 AMQuoteI think there are possibly ways to have the knowledge of the Alien on Earth erased. It was being floated at Fox before Disney took over. The term 'memory hole' was being used. Dunno if we could've pulled it off, and kinda glad we didn't need to.
No way it would ever work. We still have cave paintings from when people were hunting wooly mammoths.
No way is any technical glitch going to erase a global infestation in a digital era. If it somehow could, mofos would take out a pen and paper and right shit down. Not to mention the oral history of people telling their children and grand children about the earth war with an invasive species that nearly killed everyone on earth.
Not only that, corporations were stockpiling Aliens well into the 200 year gap between Aliens and Alien Res. ON EARTH.
That whole idea was dumb as f**k.
ADHD is a bitch
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2024, 09:24:41 AMYou actually quoted my response to this, I've bolded it for you. In the absence of an official line people will try to make their own because that sense of coherence is important to them.
Basically for many fans it's important that there is a canon, regardless of where it ends up coming from. Ideally from the source, but failing that, they'll do it themselves.
But that's my point. That is not canon. Fans can have preferences, build their own continuity, but it is not canon. So in that regard, an absence of defined canon is important, because you then have to make up your own continuity/headcanon.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 04, 2024, 09:59:48 AMBut that's my point. That is not canon. Fans can have preferences, build their own continuity, but it is not canon. So in that regard, an absence of defined canon is important, because you then have to make up your own continuity/headcanon.
Well, no, canon doesn't require that the rules or list of accepted text are ordained by any specific authority, just that there
are rules or a list of accepted texts. If that's reached by consensus it's as much a canon as anything else.
So if the license holders don't make one, or don't make it known, fans will try to make their own, resulting in endless arguments.
Again we can see this played out in real life, where religions fracture over their interpretations of texts because God Himself is unavailable for comment.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2024, 07:35:30 AMQuote from: SM on Apr 04, 2024, 07:32:41 AMIt wouldn't have been a glitch. The USM would be an authoritarian government for a period of around 150 years, and the knowledge would have been deliberately erased.
To what end, exactly?
The entirety of space is successfully governed by a single government? We can't even manage that on one planet.
*confused angry noises*
Not the entirety- just the United Systems. To what end? Control probably. It was a way to make the proposed invasion storyline work with Resurrection. Never got far enough along to be properly fleshed out.
I think I'd recently re-read 1984 and based the United Systems on the Party along with The Revision Committee who revised the Bible in the film.
As for canon - fandom, like nature, abhors a vacuum.
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2024, 07:32:41 AMIt wouldn't have been a glitch. The USM would be an authoritarian government for a period of around 150 years, and the knowledge would have been deliberately erased. Over the course of decades stories about Aliens invading Earth would gradually fade to conspiracy theories to ultimately nothing. It would have ignored all the old Dark Horse stuff (which definitely wouldn't have worked as they were not only on Earth but every second planet as well).
But similar to the story I concocted to make Prometheus fit with AvP a few years earlier - like I said, I'm kinda glad they didn't go with it.
Curious to know more about this, (was this to make AvP fit with the Alien movies?) but also *really* glad it didn't happen.
One of my fave TV shows as a kid, 'War of the Worlds'(1988) did something similar; we were supposed to believe that nobody remembered the 1953 invasion from the George Pal movie only 35 years later, thus nobody believed in Aliens. 😂 It was described as something like "collective memory block" with a General in charge of the operation even noting that he "remembered a lot of action in '53, but he'd be damned if he could recall what happened." (Even 9 year old me couldn't get my head around that as an explanation, when we saw cities levelled by the alien invasion, and of all the fighting machines that crashed when bacteria put the aliens into "deep hibernation" (rather than killing them), somehow the military only mothballed 3 ships in hangers? 🤣 Sure it hand waves logic to get a story going, but honestly, I'd have preferred something with a little more thought. 😂 (loved it all the same). Great show for anyone who hasn't seen it; Stars Richard Chaves from 'Predator' as Colonel Ironhorse 😊👍[intro here: https://youtu.be/f0X1JLIDJXA?si=NCvJhzo3OsaCtrXa ]
I remember losing interest when season 2 soft-rebooted everything as a dystopian future and killed off the leads.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Apr 04, 2024, 04:55:50 PMI remember losing interest when season 2 soft-rebooted everything as a dystopian future and killed off the leads.
Yup, not sure what the creators were smoking when they penned season 2 🤣 Killed off the main leads, completely changed the Aliens physiology, they were now no longer Mortaxans from planet Mortax, but were Mothren from Mothrai, all their tech changed from technological to biological (except their warships), the 1953 invasion was no longer an invasion, but a misunderstanding, the suits we saw the advocacy create from factory materials on Earth in '88 to protect them from radiation burns, were now being worn in 1953 and in the invasions of other worlds prior, and they brought their god with them from Mothrai before the planet exploded 🤣 it was an..Errm..interesting take on the source material.
QuoteCurious to know more about this, (was this to make AvP fit with the Alien movies?) but also *really* glad it didn't happen.
Two separate things. Back around 2015-16 I was working with Fox on a big 'Alien Hub' project, which would've been an huge official online timeline and encyclopedia. I explained to the Fox rep that AvP doesn't fit with Prometheus and, here's what Ridley said, etc. and as a throwaway said, 'You could probably find a way make it all fit I guess' and they said 'Could you do that please?' So I pitched a couple of options and they picked one, but even I didn't find it that convincing, so it was kind of a mercy - albeit a really disappointing one - when the project ultimately got canned due to staff changes. The timeline pages actually got to the point of being created, but never went live.
The USM thing was to conform to a storyline they wanted to explore around 2019-ish which would have conflicted with Resurrection. I found my solution a bit more convincing this time, but as I mentioned it was never fully fleshed out (nor was there any planned medium to flesh it out - it would've just been background info).
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2024, 10:04:39 PMQuoteCurious to know more about this, (was this to make AvP fit with the Alien movies?) but also *really* glad it didn't happen.
Two separate things. Back around 2015-16 I was working with Fox on a big 'Alien Hub' project, which would've been an huge official online timeline and encyclopedia. I explained to the Fox rep that AvP doesn't fit with Prometheus and, here's what Ridley said, etc. and as a throwaway said, 'You could probably find a way make it all fit I guess' and they said 'Could you do that please?' So I pitched a couple of options and they picked one, but even I didn't find it that convincing, so it was kind of a mercy - albeit a really disappointing one - when the project ultimately got canned due to staff changes. The timeline pages actually got to the point of being created, but never went live.
The USM thing was to conform to a storyline they wanted to explore around 2019-ish which would have conflicted with Resurrection. I found my solution a bit more convincing this time, but as I mentioned it was never fully fleshed out (nor was there any planned medium to flesh it out - it would've just been background info).
Thanks for the intel! 😃👍 it sounds really interesting (but yes, like you I'm kind of glad it's not a thing. I love Predator, but I don't want it anywhere near my beloved Alien timeline) 😂
Its fine as long as they keep it as three/two seperate continuities. One for Aliens only, the other for either Predator only or Aliens and Predator. There does seem to be more references to Aliens on the Predator side of the franchise.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Apr 04, 2024, 11:39:18 PMIts fine as long as they keep it as three/two seperate continuities. One for Aliens only, the other for either Predator only or Aliens and Predator. There does seem to be more references to Aliens on the Predator side of the franchise.
I think the three continuity approach is best, three canons:
Alien
Predator
AVP
Thanks for this! That is how I shall arrange it in my headcanon now. :)
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2024, 10:04:39 PMQuoteCurious to know more about this, (was this to make AvP fit with the Alien movies?) but also *really* glad it didn't happen.
Two separate things. Back around 2015-16 I was working with Fox on a big 'Alien Hub' project, which would've been an huge official online timeline and encyclopedia. I explained to the Fox rep that AvP doesn't fit with Prometheus and, here's what Ridley said, etc. and as a throwaway said, 'You could probably find a way make it all fit I guess' and they said 'Could you do that please?' So I pitched a couple of options and they picked one, but even I didn't find it that convincing, so it was kind of a mercy - albeit a really disappointing one - when the project ultimately got canned due to staff changes. The timeline pages actually got to the point of being created, but never went live.
The USM thing was to conform to a storyline they wanted to explore around 2019-ish which would have conflicted with Resurrection. I found my solution a bit more convincing this time, but as I mentioned it was never fully fleshed out (nor was there any planned medium to flesh it out - it would've just been background info).
Just out of interest, how would you have made it fit?
It's a tie! That is all.
"Weyland-Yutani Corp. Building Better Worlds."
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2024, 10:07:39 AMWell, no, canon doesn't require that the rules or list of accepted text are ordained by any specific authority, just that there are rules or a list of accepted texts. If that's reached by consensus it's as much a canon as anything else.
So if the license holders don't make one, or don't make it known, fans will try to make their own, resulting in endless arguments.
While canon in its strictest sense of religion can't be defined, when it comes to a fictional franchise canon does need to be defined by the licensor/studio for people coming in to work on that franchise. In a fictional property canon is defined by the owners. Or, at least, for Alien/vs/Predator it is. Or it was. I can't speak for how lose other properties may do it.
That's not to say official products can't incorporate fan theories or popular ideas from within the fandom, but it still has to be vetted and deemed as fitting by Studios/Fox/whatever.
I'm farming for talking points and comments for the upcoming podcast here. For reference, my view on it is I think it's a bit of a complicated topic. As a fandom canon is pointless to us because how many of us are going to be writing a novel, or developing a video game, or a comic in which it directly effects what we can do/what we can reference.
But on the flipside of that, if certain elements that we like/dislike are canon/not canon it effects whether or not we'll see them revisited going forwards.
there is one thing i would like to add:
if there can be many timelines then what prevents fox/disney at the very least from making a low budget animation movie (or comic or book series etc ) which explores the engineers and sj 's as 2 seperate things?
so if well written stories exploring that exists will having the alien tm not be liable to copyright issues?
i mean if someone writes a short story about the 2 seperate species can that not lead to trademark issues?
if the story contradicts a current story line or explores something which fox/disney wishes to remain a mystery couldn t f/d claim trademark issues?
as to prevent the story being told? isn t canon then important since it can be sold as non canon and not to be taken seriously? hence it will receive very little attention in the msm since f/d doesn t realy want those issues explored?
isn t canon then a tool to be utilised to protect the "mysteries" so to speak?
Quote from: oduodu on Apr 05, 2024, 03:06:43 PMthere is one thing i would like to add:
if there can be many timelines then what prevents fox/disney at the very least from making a low budget animation movie (or comic or book series etc ) which explores the engineers and sj 's as 2 seperate things?
so if well written stories exploring that exists will having the alien tm not be liable to copyright issues?
i mean if someone writes a short story about the 2 seperate species can that not lead to trademark issues?
if the story contradicts a current story line or explores something which fox/disney wishes to remain a mystery couldn t f/d claim trademark issues?
as to prevent the story being told? isn t canon then important since it can be sold as non canon and not to be taken seriously? hence it will receive very little attention in the msm since f/d doesn t realy want those issues explored?
isn t canon then a tool to be utilised to protect the "mysteries" so to speak?
There is the Alien anime, and I think a whole AVP anime that was done bur not released before 20th Century Fox was sold.
I can see animation being a medium for Alien and Predator.
Quote from: E. Shaw on Apr 05, 2024, 03:19:20 PMThere is the Alien anime, and I think a whole AVP anime that was done bur not released before 20th Century Fox was sold.
I can see animation being a medium for Alien and Predator.
There was no animated Alien project in development, to my knowledge (unless you're referring to that
Alien: Isolation machinima thing?). The
Alien vs Predator: Annihilation anime was totally completed and then shelved, all during Fox's tenure, and Disney/Studios hasn't done anything to dust it off.
Quote from: E. Shaw on Apr 05, 2024, 03:19:20 PMQuote from: oduodu on Apr 05, 2024, 03:06:43 PMthere is one thing i would like to add:
if there can be many timelines then what prevents fox/disney at the very least from making a low budget animation movie (or comic or book series etc ) which explores the engineers and sj 's as 2 seperate things?
so if well written stories exploring that exists will having the alien tm not be liable to copyright issues?
i mean if someone writes a short story about the 2 seperate species can that not lead to trademark issues?
if the story contradicts a current story line or explores something which fox/disney wishes to remain a mystery couldn t f/d claim trademark issues?
as to prevent the story being told? isn t canon then important since it can be sold as non canon and not to be taken seriously? hence it will receive very little attention in the msm since f/d doesn t realy want those issues explored?
isn t canon then a tool to be utilised to protect the "mysteries" so to speak?
There is the Alien anime, and I think a whole AVP anime that was done bur not released before 20th Century Fox was sold.
I can see animation being a medium for Alien and Predator.
do you know the story of the anime?
Quote from: oduodu on Apr 05, 2024, 03:25:15 PMdo you know the story of the anime?
Everything we know about
Annihilation is collected here (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/tv/avp-annihilation/).
The [fan made] anime was called Alien Monday:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=41&v=SUARMF9cf04&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.alien-covenant.com%2F&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo
Quote from: E. Shaw on Apr 05, 2024, 03:32:09 PMThe anime was called Aliwn Monday:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=41&v=SUARMF9cf04&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.alien-covenant.com%2F&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo
That's a fan made project.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 05, 2024, 03:37:20 PMQuote from: E. Shaw on Apr 05, 2024, 03:32:09 PMThe anime was called Aliwn Monday:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=41&v=SUARMF9cf04&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.alien-covenant.com%2F&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo
That's a fan made project.
Yeah just saw that in the comments, but boy does it make the case for Alien is suited for anime. :)
ah ty gentleman
Canon at this point just honestly doesn't make sense. The studio should see they have colossally F'd up over the course of nearly 50 years with every movie having a significant impact or change of lure that contradicts the last. Trying to sort this out at this point is insane
To me they succeeded in making things interesting.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 04, 2024, 08:44:08 AMBut this is always the thing I come back to. Fans don't get to interpret canon because that's not what canon is. Canon is the "truth" as defined by Studios/Disney.
You asked if we
care though.
Just from a personal perspective - I get most of my enjoyment from the franchise in the form of various tabletop gaming projects and the like. Because this is an inherently creative endeavour, by necessity I'll be picking and choosing what's relevant to a given narrative or aesthetic choice, and frequently this may involve telling the story I want to tell even if it's mutually exclusive with other stories I or the license holders have told.
Going back to my previous comment about the trilogy, and since I'm talking about a creative exercise, I feel I can get away with an art metaphor - When I'm painting my picture, there's three colours I'll
always use, but a huge palette of other colours I can draw from if needed. The resulting pictures are self contained and, due to a lack of any accountability, may well tell contradictory stories.
When new content is released, it gets added to the palette, although how much it gets used may vary. But my relationship with the franchise is so coloured by my use of the entries as source material, not the be-all, end-all, that Facts and Rules take an absolute back seat to Vibes and Aesthetics.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 05, 2024, 02:56:31 PMAs a fandom canon is pointless to us because how many of us are going to be writing a novel, or developing a video game, or a comic in which it directly effects what we can do/what we can reference.
You're approaching it too pragmatically. It doesn't matter if fans are going to write officially sanctioned material; people like shit to make sense and canon helps separate the wheat from the chaff.
As SM said, fandom abhors a vacuum. If there's no official canon announced people will have endless arguments over what is canon because it does matter to fandoms.
This is why Fox's lack of public announcements of it in the past frustrated people. So many canon arguments that could have easily been stopped if they had simply made it clear back then.
When they did start speaking about it, it ended up being fluid rather than static since we know that canon/continuity changes such as how the rebooted EU (Out of the shadows, Rage war and the fire and stone) was initially deemed canon but was basically retconned by Covenant.
Rage War and Fire & Stone were also retconned because they had Predators in.
True enough but it was a sequel trilogy to Shadows right? They used the same lore such trimonite and the dog alien thingies.
Yeah, sequel to Out of the Shadows and Sea of Sorrows. It immediately got the date wrong, when the robot sabotages the Alien experiments (using the samples from SoS), which is fairly minor. But in the lead up to Covenant licensing made the decision to exclude any crossover stuff, so Rage War, Fire & Stone and Life & Death got excised from the rest of the existing continuity.
Was anything of value lost?
I still have the comics in the room in which I am currently seated, so no, not as such.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Apr 05, 2024, 08:42:37 PMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 04, 2024, 08:44:08 AMBut this is always the thing I come back to. Fans don't get to interpret canon because that's not what canon is. Canon is the "truth" as defined by Studios/Disney.
You asked if we care though.
I did. And it's why do you care about something you have no control over or influences you outside of the points I brought up.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 06, 2024, 07:35:09 AMAnd it's why do you care about something you have no control over or influences you outside of the points I brought up.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 05, 2024, 09:05:31 PMpeople like shit to make sense and canon helps separate the wheat from the chaff.
As SM said, fandom abhors a vacuum. If there's no official canon announced people will have endless arguments over what is canon because it does matter to fandoms.
I used to care once...
These days I just don't care at all. As long as the film/game/book/comic is good then whatever. It's all just make believe anyway.
does anyone know what the full plot for alien 5 was? has that been revealed? i am asking because i want to know if it would have decanonised alien 3.
if it did would people be happy that a possibly new timeline existed for hix and noot?
would canon matter or not then?
Quote from: oduodu on Apr 06, 2024, 11:40:39 AMdoes anyone know what the full plot for alien 5 was? has that been revealed? i am asking because i want to know if it would have decanonised alien 3.
if it did would people be happy that a possibly new timeline existed for hix and noot?
We don't know the specifics but it would have ignored Alien 3. This much is known.
is mike the only one that fully knows the plot?
i wonder when his NDA expires on that.
At first I voted Yes but after think on it I changed my voted to No. My canon forever will be Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 despite I like Resurrection and Covenant (Prometheus no so much) they have done some things to the lore that you can love it or hate it, specially the prequel's, I think that Resurrection doesn't has to many harm in this regard. With Romulus we will see, it has things of the prequel's added to the movie. But the untouchable and perfect canon will be forever the OG trilogy
Quote from: aliens13 on Apr 07, 2024, 09:43:32 PMAt first I voted Yes but after think on it I changed my voted to No. My canon forever will be Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 despite I like Resurrection and Covenant (Prometheus no so much) they have done some things to the lore that you can love it or hate it, specially the prequel's, I think that Resurrection doesn't has to many harm in this regard. With Romulus we will see, it has things of the prequel's added to the movie. But the untouchable and perfect canon will be forever the OG trilogy
Inevitably we all have a point we think a story should stop, some it is Alien, others Aliens, others Alien3, and still others who like it to keep expanding. I think it is possible to have a canon like you have said be were you wanted it, and still enjoy new offerings. :)
Quote from: E. Shaw on Apr 07, 2024, 10:05:14 PMQuote from: aliens13 on Apr 07, 2024, 09:43:32 PMAt first I voted Yes but after think on it I changed my voted to No. My canon forever will be Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 despite I like Resurrection and Covenant (Prometheus no so much) they have done some things to the lore that you can love it or hate it, specially the prequel's, I think that Resurrection doesn't has to many harm in this regard. With Romulus we will see, it has things of the prequel's added to the movie. But the untouchable and perfect canon will be forever the OG trilogy
Inevitably we all have a point we think a story should stop, some it is Alien, others Aliens, others Aliwn3, and still others who like it to keep expanding. I think it is possible to have a canon like you have said be were you wanted it, and still enjoy new offerings. :)
I'm hope and I'm sure that I will enjoy or love Romulus, I'm very excited to see what Fede has to offer to my favourite franchise. But my canon will be the original trilogy ;D
Quote from: aliens13 on Apr 07, 2024, 10:11:15 PMQuote from: E. Shaw on Apr 07, 2024, 10:05:14 PMQuote from: aliens13 on Apr 07, 2024, 09:43:32 PMAt first I voted Yes but after think on it I changed my voted to No. My canon forever will be Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 despite I like Resurrection and Covenant (Prometheus no so much) they have done some things to the lore that you can love it or hate it, specially the prequel's, I think that Resurrection doesn't has to many harm in this regard. With Romulus we will see, it has things of the prequel's added to the movie. But the untouchable and perfect canon will be forever the OG trilogy
Inevitably we all have a point we think a story should stop, some it is Alien, others Aliens, others Aliwn3, and still others who like it to keep expanding. I think it is possible to have a canon like you have said be were you wanted it, and still enjoy new offerings. :)
I'm hope and I'm sure that I will enjoy or love Romulus, I'm very excited to see what Fede has to offer to my favourite franchise. But my canon will be the original trilogy ;D
The Trilogy really is the most satisfying for Ripley's story. Resurrection would have maybe been better without her.
Quote from: E. Shaw on Apr 07, 2024, 10:15:13 PMQuote from: aliens13 on Apr 07, 2024, 10:11:15 PMQuote from: E. Shaw on Apr 07, 2024, 10:05:14 PMQuote from: aliens13 on Apr 07, 2024, 09:43:32 PMAt first I voted Yes but after think on it I changed my voted to No. My canon forever will be Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 despite I like Resurrection and Covenant (Prometheus no so much) they have done some things to the lore that you can love it or hate it, specially the prequel's, I think that Resurrection doesn't has to many harm in this regard. With Romulus we will see, it has things of the prequel's added to the movie. But the untouchable and perfect canon will be forever the OG trilogy
Inevitably we all have a point we think a story should stop, some it is Alien, others Aliens, others Aliwn3, and still others who like it to keep expanding. I think it is possible to have a canon like you have said be were you wanted it, and still enjoy new offerings. :)
I'm hope and I'm sure that I will enjoy or love Romulus, I'm very excited to see what Fede has to offer to my favourite franchise. But my canon will be the original trilogy ;D
The Trilogy really is the most satisfying for Ripley's story. Resurrection would have maybe been better without her.
Agree, but we wouldn't have the clone rom scene. There's some cool ideas in Resurrection, the problem is that the bad ideas overpasses the good ones but totally an enjoyable film. And it gave us an really cool PS1 game that it's my favourite Alien game after Isolation
Quote from: aliens13 on Apr 07, 2024, 10:19:21 PMQuote from: E. Shaw on Apr 07, 2024, 10:15:13 PMQuote from: aliens13 on Apr 07, 2024, 10:11:15 PMQuote from: E. Shaw on Apr 07, 2024, 10:05:14 PMQuote from: aliens13 on Apr 07, 2024, 09:43:32 PMAt first I voted Yes but after think on it I changed my voted to No. My canon forever will be Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 despite I like Resurrection and Covenant (Prometheus no so much) they have done some things to the lore that you can love it or hate it, specially the prequel's, I think that Resurrection doesn't has to many harm in this regard. With Romulus we will see, it has things of the prequel's added to the movie. But the untouchable and perfect canon will be forever the OG trilogy
Inevitably we all have a point we think a story should stop, some it is Alien, others Aliens, others Aliwn3, and still others who like it to keep expanding. I think it is possible to have a canon like you have said be were you wanted it, and still enjoy new offerings. :)
I'm hope and I'm sure that I will enjoy or love Romulus, I'm very excited to see what Fede has to offer to my favourite franchise. But my canon will be the original trilogy ;D
The Trilogy really is the most satisfying for Ripley's story. Resurrection would have maybe been better without her.
Agree, but we wouldn't have the clone rom scene. There's some cool ideas in Resurrection, the problem is that the bad ideas overpasses the good ones but totally an enjoyable film. And it gave us an really cool PS1 game that it's my favourite Alien game after Isolation
It helps that Ripley 8 is not the true Ripley, but a clone and hybrid. There is a sequel book to Ressurection I am considering reading.
yes I care about canon.
but large-scale franchises are like a salad bar.
You have to choose what you like for yourself.
Some people turn their backs on a franchise completely when they no longer like the prequels or sequels.
at least the cinematic canon is pretty important to me.
(avp doesn't exist for me at this point)
I don't consider the comics, novels, audiobooks and video games to be part of the official canon, even if some are perhaps chosen to be, but I simply see them as a nice change and more like "what if" scenarios.
But I really like how the role-playing game rulebook tries to bring all events (fortunately except AvP) under one roof and explain open questions.
Alien Isolation was brilliant but as long as there is no film about it, this is also a "could have been" for me.
(It actually would have been better without the name Ripley)
I'm wondering anyway, why does it always have to have something to do with Ripley???
She was great in 1-3 but the story is over, that's it.
I also like A4 to a certain extent, but while A1-A3 fit together pretty well, A4 feels like a fantasy film.
I'm trying not to hear anything about Romulus until it's in theaters, so I don't really know at the moment to what extent the name Ripley plays a role here, but I hope that the film doesn't have a to big reference but still fits into the timeline.
Quote from: E. Shaw on Apr 07, 2024, 10:15:13 PMQuote from: aliens13 on Apr 07, 2024, 10:11:15 PMQuote from: E. Shaw on Apr 07, 2024, 10:05:14 PMQuote from: aliens13 on Apr 07, 2024, 09:43:32 PMAt first I voted Yes but after think on it I changed my voted to No. My canon forever will be Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 despite I like Resurrection and Covenant (Prometheus no so much) they have done some things to the lore that you can love it or hate it, specially the prequel's, I think that Resurrection doesn't has to many harm in this regard. With Romulus we will see, it has things of the prequel's added to the movie. But the untouchable and perfect canon will be forever the OG trilogy
Inevitably we all have a point we think a story should stop, some it is Alien, others Aliens, others Aliwn3, and still others who like it to keep expanding. I think it is possible to have a canon like you have said be were you wanted it, and still enjoy new offerings. :)
I'm hope and I'm sure that I will enjoy or love Romulus, I'm very excited to see what Fede has to offer to my favourite franchise. But my canon will be the original trilogy ;D
The Trilogy really is the most satisfying for Ripley's story. Resurrection would have maybe been better without her.
Resurrection couldn't have happened without her.
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2024, 09:18:00 AMQuote from: E. Shaw on Apr 07, 2024, 10:15:13 PMQuote from: aliens13 on Apr 07, 2024, 10:11:15 PMQuote from: E. Shaw on Apr 07, 2024, 10:05:14 PMQuote from: aliens13 on Apr 07, 2024, 09:43:32 PMAt first I voted Yes but after think on it I changed my voted to No. My canon forever will be Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 despite I like Resurrection and Covenant (Prometheus no so much) they have done some things to the lore that you can love it or hate it, specially the prequel's, I think that Resurrection doesn't has to many harm in this regard. With Romulus we will see, it has things of the prequel's added to the movie. But the untouchable and perfect canon will be forever the OG trilogy
Inevitably we all have a point we think a story should stop, some it is Alien, others Aliens, others Aliwn3, and still others who like it to keep expanding. I think it is possible to have a canon like you have said be were you wanted it, and still enjoy new offerings. :)
I'm hope and I'm sure that I will enjoy or love Romulus, I'm very excited to see what Fede has to offer to my favourite franchise. But my canon will be the original trilogy ;D
The Trilogy really is the most satisfying for Ripley's story. Resurrection would have maybe been better without her.
Resurrection couldn't have happened without her.
Alien 4 was originally written by Whedon without Ripley.
It just very likely wouldn't have been a cloning story.
At least there would have been many ways in which the alien could have been brought back to the screen.
The name Ressurrection doesn't just refer to Ripley.
Yes. But including Ripley made some sense. I don't know how Whedon intended to bring back Newt but it doesn't sound like it was just a straight swap for Ripley.
Quote from: Neila on Apr 08, 2024, 09:58:55 AMAlien 4 was originally written by Whedon without Ripley.
It just very likely wouldn't have been a cloning story.
How else do you think they'd bring Newt back?
I don't know whedon's first script.
But bringing Newt back through cloning makes no sense because she didn't have a queen inside her. So she is completely worthless to the company.
Wasn't there even a plan to dismiss Alien 3 as a nightmare episode?
Well, I mean long before Blomkamp appeared on the scene.
(His plan was a new Alien 3, so to speak, with Hicks, Newt and Ripley)
Quote from: Neila on Apr 08, 2024, 10:29:51 AMI don't know whedon's first script.
But bringing Newt back through cloning makes no sense because she didn't have a queen inside her. So she is completely worthless to the company.
Wasn't there even a plan to dismiss Alien 3 as a nightmare episode?
Well, I mean long before Blomkamp appeared on the scene.
(His plan was a new Alien 3, so to speak, with Hicks, Newt and Ripley)
Whedon's was going to feature an older Newt and it seems like it would still involve cloning.
Maybe he wanted to bring the alien back by cloning?
That would be understandable somehow, but newt doesn't make any sense at all.
Quote from: Neila on Apr 08, 2024, 09:58:55 AMQuote from: SM on Apr 08, 2024, 09:18:00 AMQuote from: E. Shaw on Apr 07, 2024, 10:15:13 PMQuote from: aliens13 on Apr 07, 2024, 10:11:15 PMQuote from: E. Shaw on Apr 07, 2024, 10:05:14 PMQuote from: aliens13 on Apr 07, 2024, 09:43:32 PMAt first I voted Yes but after think on it I changed my voted to No. My canon forever will be Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 despite I like Resurrection and Covenant (Prometheus no so much) they have done some things to the lore that you can love it or hate it, specially the prequel's, I think that Resurrection doesn't has to many harm in this regard. With Romulus we will see, it has things of the prequel's added to the movie. But the untouchable and perfect canon will be forever the OG trilogy
Inevitably we all have a point we think a story should stop, some it is Alien, others Aliens, others Aliwn3, and still others who like it to keep expanding. I think it is possible to have a canon like you have said be were you wanted it, and still enjoy new offerings. :)
I'm hope and I'm sure that I will enjoy or love Romulus, I'm very excited to see what Fede has to offer to my favourite franchise. But my canon will be the original trilogy ;D
The Trilogy really is the most satisfying for Ripley's story. Resurrection would have maybe been better without her.
Resurrection couldn't have happened without her.
Alien 4 was originally written by Whedon without Ripley.
It just very likely wouldn't have been a cloning story.
At least there would have been many ways in which the alien could have been brought back to the screen.
The name Ressurrection doesn't just refer to Ripley.
Technically Romulus is gonna be resurrection.
at least in rez ripley gets some payoff for her troubles. and mankind the super soldier they were looking for. it s sad egg morphing never got a place in a3 or a4. at least we have the the alien dc.
Alien Resurrection is enjoyable to me as a live-action Dark Horse comic book. But is always a EU/ what-if story to me. It deffo doesn't belong anywhere near the original trilogy.
It existence relies entirely on the "original trilogy".
Quote from: E. Shaw on Apr 08, 2024, 11:11:01 AMTechnically Romulus is gonna be resurrection.
Maybe it's too early to draw comparisons but visually it looks like
Alien Isolation the movie. But yeah 😑🙏
Spoiler
There seem to be some common themes with Alien Resurrection according to leaks ;D
I hope it's more like
The Cold Forge though, plot-wise speaking .
Quote from: SM on Apr 08, 2024, 09:35:39 PMIt existence relies entirely on the "original trilogy".
This is very true, but i meant in terms of aesthetic/vibe/atmosphere, it's definitely an outlier. One could argue that each Alien film is as different from the preceding movie, yet the original three movies work as a trilogy and 'feel right' together. Resurrection doesn't feel like it belongs (hence my analogy to being like a dark horse comic... it's not so much the ideas, more the execution. And whilst there is a 200 year gap to consider, it still almost feels like a different world to the first three movies.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 08, 2024, 10:06:20 PMQuote from: E. Shaw on Apr 08, 2024, 11:11:01 AMTechnically Romulus is gonna be resurrection.
Maybe it's too early to draw comparisons but visually it looks like Alien Isolation the movie. But yeah 😑🙏
Spoiler
There seem to be some common themes with Alien Resurrection according to leaks ;D
I hope it's more like The Cold Forge though, plot-wise speaking .
I'll die if Ripley somehow makes a cameo.
Quote from: E. Shaw on Apr 09, 2024, 02:59:59 AMI'll die if Ripley somehow makes a cameo.
I'll kill someone if she does. We may have a mutual interest.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Apr 08, 2024, 10:28:31 PMQuote from: SM on Apr 08, 2024, 09:35:39 PMIt existence relies entirely on the "original trilogy".
This is very true, but i meant in terms of aesthetic/vibe/atmosphere, it's definitely an outlier. One could argue that each Alien film is as different from the preceding movie, yet the original three movies work as a trilogy and 'feel right' together. Resurrection doesn't feel like it belongs (hence my analogy to being like a dark horse comic... it's not so much the ideas, more the execution. And whilst there is a 200 year gap to consider, it still almost feels like a different world to the first three movies.
You could easily level the same criticism of aesthetic/vibe/atmosphere at Alien compared to the first two.
Quote from: Neila on Apr 08, 2024, 08:35:33 AMI also like A4 to a certain extent, but while A1-A3 fit together pretty well, A4 feels like a fantasy film.
Quote from: Kradan on Apr 02, 2024, 11:35:51 AM@Xenomrph
Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2024, 09:59:05 AMLike, I like Herk Mondo, but I would not want him to be part of the canon
I wouldn't mind a Herk Mondo flick. That would be something different to say the least
On the matter of canon: I don't care really as long as I can have access to the entries I enjoy re-visiting. I love Alien 3, I kinda like Resurrection, Prometheus is just there for me and I dig Covenant. But I wouldn't be terribly upset if the new stories overwrite any of these as long as it's for filmakers' creativity sake. I like first AvP movie and it's already excluded from canon and I'm OK with it (I'm glad Requiem is tho)
What's with the ping?
@predxeno I'd love to reply to your PM but your inbox is full.
As for the poll, I voted "yes", but because I find canon as a philosophical concept to be very fascinating. Otherwise I do not care what the "official canon" is. I have my own canon, that's all I need.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Apr 09, 2024, 10:25:45 PMWhat's with the ping?
I thought if anyone should share their opinion on canon - it's you
Quote from: Kradan on Apr 10, 2024, 04:22:19 AMQuote from: Xenomrph on Apr 09, 2024, 10:25:45 PMWhat's with the ping?
I thought if anyone should share their opinion on canon - it's you
That's fair
something caught my attention: someone said something about an isolation vibe going on in romulus.
does this point to an "amanda ripley - esqe" character somewhere in the movie? maybe an young adult book theme character also?
like when that irish lady (siabhan or some such in a podcast) talked about one of the characters being synthatic and like a sister to someone.
"feels" like it was incorporated here. in some way.
I mean yes all the characters are younger than we typically see in these films. There's a definite YA edge to it.
Alvarez movies often depicts youngsters.
It's the slasher vibe.
ala friday the 13th
Not sure if that is a good thing though, when the franchise relies on themes/tropes from those kind of movies, you end up with Covenant at best and AVP Requiem at worst.
I'd argue that Covenant draws more from Gothic horror than it does from slasher films, until the third act. Alien is much more a slasher than Covenant is. And AVPR is, like you said, the absolute worst case scenario for brining that particular set of tropes into these franchises.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 10, 2024, 06:01:58 PMI'd argue that Covenant draws more from Gothic horror than it does from slasher films, until the third act. Alien is much more a slasher than Covenant is. And AVPR is, like you said, the absolute worst case scenario for brining that particular set of tropes into these franchises.
True but I was referring more to the character stupidity for Covenant, they hit the "dumb victim" trope more than Alien.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Apr 09, 2024, 10:25:45 PMQuote from: Kradan on Apr 02, 2024, 11:35:51 AM@Xenomrph
Quote from: SiL on Apr 02, 2024, 09:59:05 AMLike, I like Herk Mondo, but I would not want him to be part of the canon
I wouldn't mind a Herk Mondo flick. That would be something different to say the least
On the matter of canon: I don't care really as long as I can have access to the entries I enjoy re-visiting. I love Alien 3, I kinda like Resurrection, Prometheus is just there for me and I dig Covenant. But I wouldn't be terribly upset if the new stories overwrite any of these as long as it's for filmakers' creativity sake. I like first AvP movie and it's already excluded from canon and I'm OK with it (I'm glad Requiem is tho)
What's with the ping?
@predxeno I'd love to reply to your PM but your inbox is full.
As for the poll, I voted "yes", but because I find canon as a philosophical concept to be very fascinating. Otherwise I do not care what the "official canon" is. I have my own canon, that's all I need.
Ah ok, let me fix that
Quote from: The Cruentus on Apr 10, 2024, 07:15:58 PMQuote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 10, 2024, 06:01:58 PMI'd argue that Covenant draws more from Gothic horror than it does from slasher films, until the third act. Alien is much more a slasher than Covenant is. And AVPR is, like you said, the absolute worst case scenario for brining that particular set of tropes into these franchises.
True but I was referring more to the character stupidity for Covenant, they hit the "dumb victim" trope more than Alien.
Correctamundo.
A lot of people are answering yes. I wonder are they giving a yes as in they care but pick and choose their own canon or yes as in they follow the films strictly as displayed
Probably the first one.
Quote from: solace97 on Apr 12, 2024, 01:59:14 AMA lot of people are answering yes. I wonder are they giving a yes as in they care but pick and choose their own canon or yes as in they follow the films strictly as displayed
For me it's the first one. Canon is like my penis; i have one, and I like it, but it's mine and it's flexible.
Yes but sometimes they do become rigid :laugh:
I voted yes. I don't want a wildly inconsistent universe.
I even used to avoid all EU because I couldn't consider it top tier canon.
But now I'm more laid back about it. As soon as you've got random eggs popping up on the Sulaco you've gotta let the odd thing slide.
Even if continuity ended up wiping out Alien 3 (ala Blomkamp) I think I could live with it and still enjoy Alien 3 on its own terms. If Romulus or Hawley negate Prometheus/Covenant I'd live with it.
I'm still not sure how Hawley's show would ignore the prequels explicitly. More doing his own thing without referencing them I think.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 13, 2024, 11:45:33 PMI'm still not sure how Hawley's show would ignore the prequels explicitly. More doing his own thing without referencing them I think.
Ignoring the black goo, for example. Just as Ridley Scott avoided the Queen. They're usually smart enough to leave things open. And then we have to try to make it work in our own heads.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Apr 13, 2024, 11:45:33 PMI'm still not sure how Hawley's show would ignore the prequels explicitly. More doing his own thing without referencing them I think.
Aliens existing pre-
Alien, for starters. It wouldn't knock the prequels out of continuity, but it would retcon
Covenant's intent in having David create them.
We still don't know if they ended up with that timing though.
Yeah presented like that, I'm all for it, but it's still very obscure for now.
No. I don't care about canon. Not really. I take each film as it comes. No point in trying to make sense of everything - you'll only drive yourself insane.