What's wrong with finding out who the SJ in Alien was, why he landed on LV, what came out of him, why and how he was infected, what laid the eggs on the derelict, who sent the distress signal, etc etc
I know many of you were against it and wanted a different story and I have never understood why.
Based on the spoilers, it appears Ridley and Lindelof tried to be too clever and buggered it up. They should have kept it simple and made a direct prequel. No shame in that, they could have kept the same "meeting gods" theme but ended it nicely.
They are just not as clever as they think they are and what we have instead is a confusing mess with many plot holes, typical Lideloff.
In my opinion, Ridley is cautious about making a direct prequel to ALIEN because he feared it will not be well-received by non-ALIEN fans. The 2 piles of human excrement called AVP and AVPR has made people bored and uninterested in any new ALIEN movies.
Ridley wanted,I think, to attract new viewers and non-ALIEN fans to watch Prometheus, thus he made something he thought as different and not a direct tie-up to ALIEN. Plus, by starting a new franchise, he could perhaps make more money. Creatively, he thought maybe he should create a new dimension and not being too stifled by the ALIEN franchise.
Just my opinion.
I feel sort of cheated, to be honest (although I'll reserve my final judgment until I've seen the movie). From what all the people who've seen the movie are saying, it's nowhere near as original/different/groundbreaking/thought provoking as Ridley, Damon, and the rest of the cast have claimed it to be.
I personally attribute that to the fact that "different" usually doesn't bode well with the general audience, and at the end of the day, Ridley and co. want the movie to sell well. If he had delved a deeper into this new mythos surrounding the Engineers, their past, their intentions, etc., and made Prometheus a standalone film (with an ambiguous ending, for a potential sequel's sake), I believe that it would have been much better. It seems like they dumbed it down to cater to the "general audience."
Of course, I haven't seen the movie yet, so I might end up eating my own words once I have.
As far as I know, when they started developing the film it was going to be a "proper" prequel. But in writing the script, they moved away from it.
I think it's worth remembering that they would have been restricted in what they could do. Look at the recent The Thing prequel - to tie in perfectly with the beginning of Carpenter's movie, they were hugely restricted in location, characters, story etc. And so it became a predictable and lesser film.
Ridley Scott makes the films Ridley Scott wants to make. I completely agree with him going further away from the original to find a story.
Quote from: zoidy on May 30, 2012, 08:08:55 AM
As far as I know, when they started developing the film it was going to be a "proper" prequel. But in writing the script, they moved away from it.
I think it's worth remembering that they would have been restricted in what they could do. Look at the recent The Thing prequel - to tie in perfectly with the beginning of Carpenter's movie, they were hugely restricted in location, characters, story etc. And so it became a predictable and lesser film.
Ridley Scott makes the films Ridley Scott wants to make. I completely agree with him going further away from the original to find a story.
I dont believe it would have been restricted. In Alien, all we had was one space jockey, a mysterious warning signal and a millions of eggs. The rest was open to interpretation.
They could have kept the "meeting the gods" theme but tied it directly to the original or at least referenced it.
I like the idea that the derelict in Alien landed thousand of years before Prometheus. I remember someone mentioned a theory that the SJ in Alien was a "sacrafise Engineer"; who after the disaster at the base, loaded up a bunch of eggs and flew them away to protect his species. He then landed on planet and released a warning signal telling other SJ not to come near. Something like this would have been cool.
The SJ in ALIEN probably happened due to this;
Spoiler
They left the base to terraform LV-426, but were already (possibly unknowingly) infected by the bioweapon they were creating there on LV-223. The engineer-burster hatched upon landing and there you go.
Quote from: harlock on May 30, 2012, 08:47:28 AM
The SJ in ALIEN probably happened due to this;
Spoiler
They left the base to terraform LV-426, but were already (possibly unknowingly) infected by the bioweapon they were creating there on LV-223. The engineer-burster hatched upon landing and there you go.
You cannot deduct what happened in part 1 because lindeloff wrote random part 2. What happened in part 1 was that scared 3 people in space suits found abandoned mysterious half organic awesome designed derelict. Not a fecking engineer. It IS and it WILL remain the original space jockey.
So now in addition to predxenos we have engineers all over and they make military bases on different planets to make weapons of mass destruction. {And they are not alien at all, they actually cough} Thats some mf mystery and sends shivers down my spine. Is that engineer going to catch cold???????
This Jockey seems to have a story thats largely (if not totally) separate from humans and fairly bleak.
Maybe in a sequel once the audience has had time to let the concept of an Engineer/Living Space jockey sink in and become identifiable to audiences?
Once upon a time Predators were killer aliens, then they became space samurai that team up with humans after the public had time to absorb them into popular culture. Maybe the Engineers need some time in popular culture so that even grandma will go "oh no that poor jockey got facehugged, he was so nice!" when the time comes, rather than thinking "WTF am I watching and why should I care about this giant space tapir lumbering around groaning? Wheres the handsome lead again?"
Id love to watch a completely dark and abstract story about the last days of the Jockey but I cant think of a way to sell it to the public without softening up audiences first. These aint Avatar aliens yo lol
Guys, I just read an official review that actually was unhappy that the ending to Prometheus is linked to ALIEN. The reviewer mentioned that the movie was moving along nicely until when Ridley created scenes that tie it to ALEN.The reviewer was happy that the movie at first had an original feel to it.
Now, that's weird!
Quote from: Aceburster on May 30, 2012, 09:00:49 AM
This Jockey seems to have a story thats largely (if not totally) separate from humans and fairly bleak.
Maybe in a sequel once the audience has had time to let the concept of an Engineer/Living Space jockey sink in and become identifiable to audiences?
Once upon a time Predators were killer aliens, then they became space samurai that team up with humans after the public had time to absorb them into popular culture. Maybe the Engineers need some time in popular culture so that even grandma will go "oh no that poor jockey got facehugged, he was so nice!" when the time comes, rather than thinking "WTF am I watching and why should I care about this giant space tapir lumbering around groaning? Wheres the handsome lead again?"
Id love to watch a completely dark and abstract story about the last days of the Jockey but I cant think of a way to sell it to the public without softening up audiences first. These aint Avatar aliens yo lol
YEs, I was hoping for the same, ttho lot of people disagree, I wanted a prequel about desperate weyland researchers party stranded on dark world with howling wind and weird ship close to their crash site with something slowly crawling in the ribbed tunnels and moaning, catching them one by one driving them insane, mutating, all ending in weird mass and disintegrated flesh! f**k yeah :D Something that would make me afraid of looking on night sky
But Prometheus is not bad at all. There is the famous
Spoiler
GIANT OCTOPUS IN THE CLOSET!!!!
Well, i would have seen nothing wrong about making a direct prequel to Alien, but for that to happen and to be coherent there should be either no human in the movie but only engineers or Prometheus going back in time and its crew having an interaction with the SJ which leads to the creation of the xenomorphs taylored to human species.
Though the thing which annoys me the plus is the fact that the engineers are supposed to have seeded life on earth, thus were supposed to be there dozens of millions of years ago, yet their technology doesn't seem to be extremly advanced or they are somehow incompetent. I mean after having been life engineers for millions of year, one could believe that they would be able to have a much higher control on their bioweapons. If we were as incompetent , we would already have several accidents with our nuclear weapons.One could also believe that they would be able to built way more powerful and terrifying mass destruction weapons such as flawless biotech gray goo aimed at a specific species.
MONEYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!
A new franchise born out of Ridley's mind based on bits and pieces of ALIEN will make him more money than just being the director of another ALIEN movie.
Simple as that.
To put it quite simply, we already know how it will end, and Ridley wanted to surprise us with something new instead.
The mainstream popcorn-eating, visual effects-addicted, 3d-worshiping audience can't make serious connections between stories very well and since every movie studio tries to get as much money as possible from ticket sales, the movie's storylines have to be mainstreamed too.
Most of them probably haven't seen or heard about Alien before. Most of them probably find that movie too boring to watch.
One cannot simply challenge the minds of a "new age" audience, because you will lose them half-way through the movie. And they won't be back for the sequel.
So the solution is to please both the new audience and throw a bone at the older audience (see Star Trek 2009).
Sounds of "ching-ching" everywhere.
Quote from: Kev Loaf on May 30, 2012, 08:42:05 AM
Quote from: zoidy on May 30, 2012, 08:08:55 AM
As far as I know, when they started developing the film it was going to be a "proper" prequel. But in writing the script, they moved away from it.
I think it's worth remembering that they would have been restricted in what they could do. Look at the recent The Thing prequel - to tie in perfectly with the beginning of Carpenter's movie, they were hugely restricted in location, characters, story etc. And so it became a predictable and lesser film.
Ridley Scott makes the films Ridley Scott wants to make. I completely agree with him going further away from the original to find a story.
I dont believe it would have been restricted. In Alien, all we had was one space jockey, a mysterious warning signal and a millions of eggs. The rest was open to interpretation.
They could have kept the "meeting the gods" theme but tied it directly to the original or at least referenced it.
I like the idea that the derelict in Alien landed thousand of years before Prometheus. I remember someone mentioned a theory that the SJ in Alien was a "sacrafise Engineer"; who after the disaster at the base, loaded up a bunch of eggs and flew them away to protect his species. He then landed on planet and released a warning signal telling other SJ not to come near. Something like this would have been cool.
I always thought the derelict was ancient, as you suggest, thousands of years before the events of Alien. In that case, how could Ridley have made a prequel? Humans would have been at best hitting each other with swords, not flying through space ;)
Of course he could have had no humans in the story, but that would be tough.
imo they're saving the space jockey on lv-426 for Prometheus 2.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on May 30, 2012, 10:22:42 AM
To put it quite simply, we already know how it will end, and Ridley wanted to surprise us with something new instead.
By ending it like AVP?
With a xeno like creature screaming at the audience.
What a surpise indeed.
Thats is the problem here.
I'm all in for not reahashing Alien or ending up with the Derelict on LV426 but then give me something really original.
Not a jason X and AVP ending.
The only thing that's cool with the ending is where Shaw is going.
But if the movie is not a success we will never get to see it or we will see it but it will not be from Scott but from some new hype hack self proclamed PROMETHEUS ultimate fan.
maybe Scott havent seen avp
Quote from: harlock on May 30, 2012, 08:47:28 AM
The SJ in ALIEN probably happened due to this;
Spoiler
They left the base to terraform LV-426, but were already (possibly unknowingly) infected by the bioweapon they were creating there on LV-223. The engineer-burster hatched upon landing and there you go.
Man I don't think that the infection going on inside old Jockey's body was unbeknownst to him. I think he landed over there, and while loading the eggs in the Derelict something went f**ked up big time. All eggs were opened (but the ones that were under the last working stasis field, as we can see in A L I E N) and the jockey had to face, not just one facehugger but hundreds, maybe thousands.
I think the problem there in that cave where the jockeys had the eggs in store was very clearly related to the stasis fields. I mean, all of them somehow stopped working, but the one we saw in alien, thus all facehuggers detected the pressence of a living being over there (the jockey) and went after him
Spoiler tags are a wonderful thing, people should use them more often.
Quote from: cossack0909 on May 30, 2012, 09:06:38 AM
Guys, I just read an official review that actually was unhappy that the ending to Prometheus is linked to ALIEN. The reviewer mentioned that the movie was moving along nicely until when Ridley created scenes that tie it to ALEN.The reviewer was happy that the movie at first had an original feel to it.
Now, that's weird!
I don't think that's weird at all as I feel exactly the same i.e. the less overt references to the xeno the better. Now if they were making a movie specifically about the xeno I'd say go for it...
From reading the reviews thus far, it seems that the movie attempts to be both original and yet familiar... and achieves neither. A consequence, it seems, of maybe referencing
Alien too much (although I'll try and hold my judgement tll tomorrow).
Quote from: Kev Loaf on May 30, 2012, 07:32:54 AM
What's wrong with finding out who the SJ in Alien was, why he landed on LV, what came out of him, why and how he was infected, what laid the eggs on the derelict, who sent the distress signal, etc etc
I know many of you were against it and wanted a different story and I have never understood why.
There's nothing wrong with revealing any of that, necessarily. But it could all be done through flashbacks and the like, leading into a completely new story.
The problem with doing a prequel is that, by doing so, you paint yourself into a corner. You
know there isn't going to be any meaningful threat to Earth and you
know that any cosmic mysteries are going to stay with the characters on screen. In fact, you also know that they're all either going to die or remain otherwise unknown to humanity, as a whole.
Hence, certain things hyped in the adverts don't have any resonance, because there are no emotional stakes. By setting it earlier within a given continuity, the audience already knows what are foregone conclusions.
It's one of the major problems with '
Requiem: Everyone knew the Predator wasn't ever going to be in danger of major injuries, let alone death, because it was given out early on that only one of them would be running around. It made every single confrontation with the Aliens feel very by-the-numbers.
Same thing with this. They're making out in the adverts that Earth is going to be in peril, but... We know it won't. It's clearly trying to evoke this famous advert, which made many of us so hopeful and excited, back in the 1990s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk_x9W1xKng#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk_x9W1xKng#ws)
But we know that all the action needs to be confined to the planet/planetoid dealt with in the film.
Only do a prequel when it's necessary. Otherwise, just do a sequel. It liberates you from preconceptions.
There are ways to explain the original SJ in ALIEN while still having an original story, but it might be easier in a Prometheus sequel now that we have some background information on the Engineers in place.
Quote from: Mustangjeff on May 30, 2012, 02:52:37 PM
There are ways to explain the original SJ in ALIEN while still having an original story, but it might be easier in a Prometheus sequel now that we have some background information on the Engineers in place.
Spoiler
Agreed...plus I'll also add, while P2 could still answer the real Jockey question taking us towards Alien, there's no reason why it can't then just go off somewhere else on its own. It really now depends on hows it's developed, any ideas would certainly need to be something special and new characters must surely come into it. I can't really see past a P2 with just David (the head) and Shaw, while hopefully the Xeno at the end merely serves as some distraction.
SPOILER TAGS, PEOPLE.
As someone who has been avoiding revealed information, I really hope you were joking around with some of that information, Roary. Because you just gave away something huge, if not.
Direct prequels suck because you are generally trying to pack too much story into too little time. Plus for a direct "Alien" prequel, you probably shouldn't have the human race involved in it. Which they would. And that would suck. Either that or they would make
Spoiler
Shaw the Jockey on LV-426
. Is that something you would like to see? Cause I think that is even dumber.
You can't make a movie without any human characters in it. Test markets need something to relate to. If everything in it is slightly off and there is no one they[the audience] can see themselves as you lose them. No one will fund it. Sad fact there.
Also, you haven't seen it and are basing it on spoilers. Which is just silly. You might love it. If you based alien on spoilers it sounds like a roger corman shitfest.
"Plot holes" don't bother me. I like them actually. It feels like real life if you leave a ton of shit unexplained. A story should never tie everything together. Some might call it sloppy writing, i call it realism. The more you tie together the less realistic it gets. As i get older [i'm 35] I have more questions then i have answers. And 99% of them will never get answered. Movies should be more like that. The tighter the writer, the less real it is. I like lots of open ended things. I like movies to breath.
But I am also kinda against the "visual book" idea that movies became. Alien is great because it is a paper thin plot based on the images they use. As a book without a lot of padding like the novel version, it can barely exist. Sometimes for a movie that is perfect.
Or alternatively, you are an alien, on earth, in a 2 hour movie and you walk into a church [kinda like shaw and the temple with the xeno and the giant head]. You see Jesus on the cross and a bunch of stain glass windows. How long are you going to spend explaining everything in the scene? You're not. It is background filler [and in prometheus it has some wink wink nudge nudge going on].
Quote from: RoaryUK on May 30, 2012, 03:04:55 PM
Quote from: Mustangjeff on May 30, 2012, 02:52:37 PM
There are ways to explain the original SJ in ALIEN while still having an original story, but it might be easier in a Prometheus sequel now that we have some background information on the Engineers in place.
Spoiler
Agreed...plus I'll also add, while P2 could still answer the real Jockey question taking us towards Alien, there's no reason why it can't then just go off somewhere else on its own. It really now depends on hows it's developed, any ideas would certainly need to be something special and new characters must surely come into it. I can't really see past a P2 with just David (the head) and Shaw, while hopefully the Xeno at the end merely serves as some distraction.
We need a P2 plot speculation thread :)
Spoiler
I see your point. You have to introduce new characters since everyone except for Shaw and busted David is dead. There should be a power vacuum back on earth when Vickers and Weyland turn up MIA. At this time we get Weyland-Yutani merger, and the new board uncovers the Prometheus project documents. Maybe the new company sends out a another ship to LV-223 to investigate and they discover the missing juggernaut?
We would also have the Shaw and David plotline running concuurently. At some point the two plotlines intersect
@ escroto
Spoiler
Whilst it was said before that the SJ found the xeno eggs on LV-426 and loaded them up, I wonder how much of that is ret-conned in Prometheus, although potentially the SJ could have been sent to find xeno eggs for the Engineers to bioengineer into their black goo. Then the shiz hit the fan.
The real question is whether the xenos really were indigenous to LV-426 and were genetically experimented on within the bases of LV-223 or were actually a bioweapon created on the latter moon. It could be either.
Quote from: cossack0909 on May 30, 2012, 09:06:38 AM
Guys, I just read an official review that actually was unhappy that the ending to Prometheus is linked to ALIEN. The reviewer mentioned that the movie was moving along nicely until when Ridley created scenes that tie it to ALEN.The reviewer was happy that the movie at first had an original feel to it.
Now, that's weird!
Why is it weird that someone would want a new experience and not the same creature for the 6th time.
Quote from: fiveways on May 30, 2012, 03:21:03 PM
Direct prequels suck because you are generally trying to pack too much story into too little time. Plus for a direct "Alien" prequel, you probably shouldn't have the human race involved in it. Which they would. And that would suck. Either that or they would make Spoiler
Shaw the Jockey on LV-426
You can't make a movie without any human characters in it. Test markets need something to relate to. If everything in it is slightly off and there is no one they[the audience] can see themselves as you lose them. No one will fund it. Sad fact there.
Also, you haven't seen it and are basing it on spoilers. Which is just silly. You might love it. If you based alien on spoilers it sounds like a roger corman shitfest.
"Plot holes" don't bother me. I like them actually. It feels like real life if you leave a ton of shit unexplained. A story should never tie everything together. Some might call it sloppy writing, i call it realism. The more you tie together the less realistic it gets. As i get older [i'm 35] I have more questions then i have answers. And 99% of them will never get answered. Movies should be more like that. The tighter the writer, the less real it is. I like lots of open ended things. I like movies to breath.
But I am also kinda against the "visual book" idea that movies became. Alien is great because it is a paper thin plot based on the images they use. As a book without a lot of padding like the novel version, it can barely exist. Sometimes for a movie that is perfect.
Or alternatively, you are an alien, on earth, in a 2 hour movie and you walk into a church [kinda like shaw and the temple with the xeno and the giant head]. You see Jesus on the cross and a bunch of stain glass windows. How long are you going to spend explaining everything in the scene? You're not. It is background filler [and in prometheus it has some wink wink nudge nudge going on].
Truth!
Quote from: Mohawksinspace on May 30, 2012, 08:33:59 PM
Quote from: cossack0909 on May 30, 2012, 09:06:38 AM
Guys, I just read an official review that actually was unhappy that the ending to Prometheus is linked to ALIEN. The reviewer mentioned that the movie was moving along nicely until when Ridley created scenes that tie it to ALEN.The reviewer was happy that the movie at first had an original feel to it.
Now, that's weird!
Why is it weird that someone would want a new experience and not the same creature for the 6th time.
To me , it's weird because there are fans saying that the movie did not tie in to ALIEN directly. Yet, the reviewer commented the movie did tie in to ALIEN and he was unhappy because of that.
Another official reviewer was unhappy because the movie did not link to ALIEN very well.
People are perceiving it either as a tie in movie or not a tie in movie.
Weird.
Quote from: fiveways on May 30, 2012, 03:21:03 PM
"Plot holes" don't bother me. I like them actually. It feels like real life if you leave a ton of shit unexplained. A story should never tie everything together. Some might call it sloppy writing, i call it realism. The more you tie together the less realistic it gets. As i get older [i'm 35] I have more questions then i have answers. And 99% of them will never get answered. Movies should be more like that. The tighter the writer, the less real it is. I like lots of open ended things. I like movies to breath.
A plot hole is not something that is left unexplained. A plot hole is usually elements of the plot that contradict or do not congeal logically.
By the logic you're indicating, Ash's little jog is a plot hole. When it's not. It's just an unexplained piece of scenery that gives the audience something to question.
Some plot twists open up new avenues of mystery, while others are merely dead ends.
What Openmaw said. ;)
Quote from: Kev Loaf on May 30, 2012, 07:32:54 AM
What's wrong with finding out who the SJ in Alien was, why he landed on LV, what came out of him, why and how he was infected, what laid the eggs on the derelict, who sent the distress signal, etc etc
I know many of you were against it and wanted a different story and I have never understood why.
Based on the spoilers, it appears Ridley and Lindelof tried to be too clever and buggered it up. They should have kept it simple and made a direct prequel. No shame in that, they could have kept the same "meeting gods" theme but ended it nicely.
They are just not as clever as they think they are and what we have instead is a confusing mess with many plot holes, typical Lideloff.
The problem is that everything you described can be stretched out to no more than 10 or 15 minutes of screen time. lol
It does seem odd that the filmmakers were so specific about it being not an Alien prequel, while the reason many critics are unimpressed is because to their minds it tries too hard to be an Alien prequel (and fails). The whole "it is but it isn't a prequel" bullshit seems to have come home to roost, as was expected by many people here.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on May 31, 2012, 09:02:10 AM
It does seem odd that the filmmakers were so specific about it being not an Alien prequel, while the reason many critics are unimpressed is because to their minds it tries too hard to be an Alien prequel (and fails). The whole "it is but it isn't a prequel" bullshit seems to have come home to roost, as was expected by many people here.
What is ironic, is it would have been indeed quite easy to avoid making of this film a prequel.
For that:
Spoiler
there should not be either the giant facehugger/mouthhugger and the jockey xeno at the end.
The filmmakers just need to focus on the jockey and their relationship. I think this relationship must have been much more developped and there should have been a much more significant and sophisticated interaction between the surviving engineer and the humans. Not a jason from the jockeys. Are we sure it is not this remaining engineer who kills the others ? Btw, the prequel aspect could have been dealt with by a simple flashback about whatever happens to the engineers thousands of years ago.
The film doesn't answer all the questions that a direct prequel would (no, I think they
could stretch a feature out of that).
Spoiler
-We find out what came out of him and he clearly sent the distress signal. Now just why he was on LV-426 is up for conjecture, some theorise he was there to collect xeno eggs, some because he landed there to quarantine himself due to his infection. He could either have been infected by black goo from ampules onboard (the Derelict is huge and the Nostromo crew didn't go everywhere) or a facehugger of some description - either from a xeno egg or a resultant child of one of the infected Engineers from the LV-223 outbreak. That so, it'd have been the Engineer-burster that laid the xeno eggs on the Derelict.
So he was infected by accident in pretty much both ways, its whether it was from a xeno egg he collected or a thing that come from a black goo infected crew-member got him.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on May 31, 2012, 09:02:10 AM
It does seem odd that the filmmakers were so specific about it being not an Alien prequel, while the reason many critics are unimpressed is because to their minds it tries too hard to be an Alien prequel (and fails). The whole "it is but it isn't a prequel" bullshit seems to have come home to roost, as was expected by many people here.
Exactly. To be or not to be....a prequel.