This is something I've been working on for a while now. It's an article charting the development of the Alien prequel to Prometheus.
I hope you enjoy!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/engineering-prometheus-03.jpg)
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/alien-movies/prometheus/engineering-prometheus/
Thanks Corporal
This article answers so many of my questions. Looks like the furious gods is a must see.
Its interesting the explanation on how spaihts came to his conclusion as to why the whole thing had to be relatable to humanity.
I will be reading this again many times
Thank you
Thanks, oduodu. I'm glad you like it. I tried to put together a complete story so that the development was as clear as possible.
Jon Spaihts just retweeted the article, calling it a "rock-solid piece". ;D https://twitter.com/jonspaihts/status/728670170978226176
That's great !
Thanks Mr Spaihts
Wasn't there something about a Carl Rinsch ALIEN remake lingering around for a while which initially set things into motion?
Quote from: LarsVader on May 06, 2016, 08:46:37 PM
Wasn't there something about a Carl Rinsch ALIEN remake lingering around for a while which initially set things into motion?
It was just Bloody Disgusting who reported it as a remake but quickly updated to say it would be an "origin" story.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 06, 2016, 08:54:29 PM
Quote from: LarsVader on May 06, 2016, 08:46:37 PM
Wasn't there something about a Carl Rinsch ALIEN remake lingering around for a while which initially set things into motion?
It was just Bloody Disgusting who reported it as a remake but quickly updated to say it would be an "origin" story.
Was always wondering how much truth there might be to that, since Prometheus integrates so many elements from earlier ALIEN scripts/concepts/ideas.
I don't think it was ever considered a remake. Rinsch's involvement came after Spaihts and Spaihts was always working on a prequel. It was just a mistake in the lines of communication from BD's source.
Great read Hicks, thanks!
It makes me wonder if the development of the Covenant script is going to be just as interesting when it is released, and what they changed or left in.
Quote from: Look into my eye on May 07, 2016, 08:32:42 AM
Great read Hicks, thanks!
It makes me wonder if the development of the Covenant script is going to be just as interesting when it is released, and what they changed or left in.
Yes that's a good point. I also wonder if we will see leaked scripts after covenants release.
Great job Corporal.
Spaihts made a good first script, but I liked the direction taken by Lindelof. More interesting.
Maybe not the most rigorous script, but a great story, great ideas and reflections, stunning scenes ... I want to see again Prometheus, Thanks
---
Quote
The notion of a film exploring the untold history of Alien in more depth is something that has existed in Ridley Scott's brain since he finished work on Alien. Talking to Omni's Screen Flights/Screen Fantasies back in 1984, he commented on his desire to delve into the history of the Alien:
"It certainly should explain what the Alien is and where it comes from. That will be tough because it will require dealing with other planets, worlds, civilisations. Because obviously the Alien did come from some sort of civilisation. The Alien was presented, really, as one of the last survivors of Mars – a planet named after the god of war. The Alien may be one of the last descendants of some long-lost self-destructed group of beings."
It's crazy but he could say this for Covenant, and it is only in 1984.
Great Article Hicks. So in depth, means i've got to watch Furious Gods now lol
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 06, 2016, 08:08:27 PM
Jon Spaihts just retweeted the article, calling it a "rock-solid piece". ;D https://twitter.com/jonspaihts/status/728670170978226176
Nice commendation from the man himself!
The Engineers script really had some great elements without most of Lindelof's re-write issues. Still needed a fair amount of polish which makes me curious about the latter drafts such as Alien: Zero. Didn't someone on here claim they had a hardcopy and were going to send it to you?
Quote from: Look into my eye on May 07, 2016, 08:32:42 AM
It makes me wonder if the development of the Covenant script is going to be just as interesting when it is released, and what they changed or left in.
It looks like it. Back in October 2014, the "Prometheus 2" script was already at 15 drafts with three different writers involved. Who knows how many revisions/re-writes it's had since. At one point they even had a call for any established screenwriters to submit sample scripts which demonstrates just how rudderless they were with regards to a sequel.
Really awesome article, nicely done.
Quote from: oduodu on May 07, 2016, 08:46:15 AM
Quote from: Look into my eye on May 07, 2016, 08:32:42 AM
Great read Hicks, thanks!
It makes me wonder if the development of the Covenant script is going to be just as interesting when it is released, and what they changed or left in.
Yes that's a good point. I also wonder if we will see leaked scripts after covenants release.
I certainly hope we'll get to see some of the scripts. I'll be really curious to see how this one changed over time. Hopefully it's a better end result than Prometheus.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on May 07, 2016, 02:43:19 PM
The Engineers script really had some great elements without most of Lindelof's re-write issues. Still needed a fair amount of polish which makes me curious about the latter drafts such as Alien: Zero. Didn't someone on here claim they had a hardcopy and were going to send it to you?
He hasn't been on since March unfortunately so nothing has come out of that one yet. :(
Thanks for the kind words, gents. I spent a bit of time on this one and am quite proud of it.
So clearly form Spaihts perspective (from the posted picture) he originally intended the engineers to be procreationally dysfunctional. So no hierarchy above them themselves only mankind below them. So does mankind in some way help solve the engineers procreation problem? Or did they not have a procreation problem? So what was mankind's purpose?
In Spaihts draft the exact position of the engineer homeworld was locked but David knew that it was somewhere in Sagitarius's arm. But why would it be hidden? Who were they afraid might discover it ? Also there were other planets that were not hidden and I assume that they were also bases like lv 223. Or were they like earth? With people on them ?
Is there perhaps a possibility that they themselves didn't know the coordinates from their home world to protect their home planet from infection?
You should be proud. Its so far the best article on Prometheus and its development I have read because it clears up a lot of the confusion.
Quote from: oduodu on May 08, 2016, 09:17:23 PM
So clearly form Spaihts perspective (from the posted picture) he originally intended the engineers to be procreationally dysfunctional. So no hierarchy above them themselves only mankind below them. So does mankind in some way help solve the engineers procreation problem? Or did they not have a procreation problem? So what was mankind's purpose?
In Spaihts draft the exact position of the engineer homeworld was locked but David knew that it was somewhere in Sagitarius's arm. But why would it be hidden? Who were they afraid might discover it ? Also there were other planets that were not hidden and I assume that they were also bases like lv 223. Or were they like earth? With people on them ?
Who knows? That still wasn't answered. Perhaps its as a legacy. Ridley used to talk of the Aliens as a weapon so perhaps the Engineers are fighting a loosing battle whom the Aliens are a weapon against and mankind was to be their lasting legacy.
QuoteYou should be proud. Its so far the best article on Prometheus and its development I have read because it clears up a lot of the confusion.
Thanks. That was the intent. I see a lot of confusion and mistakes when talking about the development so I wanted to help clear it up. I worked on this one for a few months to make sure I'd got it all down.
Observation
The first draft Spaihts write was clearly then a direct prequel with the crew discovering the derelict.
That in itself was such an important bit of info as it clearly shows that there was a very big evolution from that draft to the alien engineers. The specifics of that draft was probably pre ridley and was purest in terms of Spaihts original ideas.
Thanks for sharing that.
Great article as usual. Great job!
Good read!
It does upset me that they got Lidelof to spoil what could've been quite a promising movie.
http://www.tgdaily.com/entertainment/66733-what-went-wrong-behind-the-scenes-of-prometheus
Corporal this article claims that Ridley was unhappy with the removal of the xenos. True?
Final question remains: Who f*cked up? Spaiths? Lindelof? Scott? Studio? Or was it a collective failure?
Lindelof and whoever thoguht it was a good idea to hire him to hack the Aliens out of the script and turn it into a mess.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Dec 05, 2016, 07:40:09 PM
Lindelof and whoever thoguht it was a good idea to hire him to hack the Aliens out of the script and turn it into a mess.
Studio hires a writer.
Do you think that Scott regrets what he did with Prometheus? He'll never admit that but I think he does regret his decision.
It really annoys me when people talk about Prometheus as if it was a complete failure. It garnered great reviews and did pretty well at the box office. I do not think it was a perfect movie by any means, but acting like there is a consensus on it being terrible is just ridiculous. The people that hate the movie are actually in a very small group, but they talk as if they speak for the entire audience.
I like that they took chances and did not just regurgitate Alien. My only wish is that there would have been more of a biomechanical look to the technology and creatures.
That's why this article is good: it clearly states that LIndelof asked Scott if it was a good idea to be over ambiguous after he was lambasted for his over ambiguous writing in Lost and Scott clearly told him to do so . The article clearly indicates this.
There was an online article where Spaihts indicated that he felt very sorry for Lindelof because he was given very hard task. Many have criticised Prometheus for trying to be too many things and as a result not succeeding at any of them. That's the problem Lindelof had.
And most of those changes came very late very close to production.
I have always wondered if Ridley just pulled up his shoulders and said:
Meh that's all folks and went to the next film project not too bothered.
It feels like no one really cared.
Personally I liked the way Lindelof spoke to his audience in his script. IMHO he is a good writer.
Spaihts had so many mind blowing ideas that hopefully will be used one day.
I know no one sets out to make a bad movie.
It still feels like : I always wanted to do that unused stuff I story? Uhm ....let's talk about that later. Like there was a bit of unhappiness from Scott with regards to Completely removing the xenos eggs facehuggers etc.
Anyways the moment of truth is at hand as we will see if a 180 degree turnaround was made about the original direction the series was supposed to take as the first official trailed has been revealed and released to journalists.
I remain cautious ....
Quote from: Ingwar on Dec 05, 2016, 07:27:50 PM
Final question remains: Who f*cked up? Spaiths? Lindelof? Scott? Studio? Or was it a collective failure?
That was the thing that also killed me right from the start: to whom do you lay the blame? Not for the sake of it but to learn not to do so again . But this thread and the article it links to does answer many questions.
For the most part I think Scott had the most say although I believe there was some studio involvement but as to exact nature of that. - dunno.
Thought it worth mentioning that in the screenwriters commentary Spaihts indicates that in one of his drafts they discovered a pictogram on Mars.
Don't think Scott had total control here; the decision to hire Lindelof was not his but via "higher ups", the title Prometheus was Tom Rothman's idea, and Seagers told Haag that Ridley wasn't happy with where Prometheus went...
Quote from: Ingwar on Dec 05, 2016, 07:27:50 PM
Final question remains: Who f*cked up? Spaiths? Lindelof? Scott? Studio? Or was it a collective failure?
With a good box office and positive response from audience and critics, it was a collective success.
Quote from: SM on Jan 01, 2017, 09:21:40 PM...positive response from audience and critics...
Is this strictly true?
Most people I know didn't thin kit was that great at all (and I don't just mean hardcore
Alien fans) and I remember reviews being fairly mixed, praising the visuals but criticising the story.
Yeah. It's just true. No matter how much you wish it not to be. 68% audience score on rotten tomatoes, overwhelming majority.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jan 03, 2017, 05:34:53 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 01, 2017, 09:21:40 PM...positive response from audience and critics...
Is this strictly true?
Most people I know didn't thin kit was that great at all (and I don't just mean hardcore Alien fans) and I remember reviews being fairly mixed, praising the visuals but criticising the story.
In addition to the 68% audience score on RT, there's 72% critic score and 7/10 on IMDB.
With 278 critic reviews, and hundreds of thousands of viewer scores, it's a good enough sample size to say stats > "people I know".
Quote from: SM on Jan 03, 2017, 08:04:35 PMIn addition to the 68% audience score on RT, there's 72% critic score and 7/10 on IMDB.
With 278 critic reviews, and hundreds of thousands of viewer scores, it's a good enough sample size to say stats > "people I know".
I wasn't saying my acquaintances' opinions were gospel as far as the film's reception goes, was just asking for some clarification.
So yeah, fair enough.
It's certified fresh on Rotten Tomatoes: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/prometheus_2012/
It's also scored pretty decently on IMDB. It's not as universally hated as the fandom seems to think it is.
This very site has a survey where over 80% of voters rated it 3/5 or above (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=43750.1635).
However, if you repeat the lie often enough...
People were still disappointed, they just didn't think it was that bad overall.
Well yeah. 7/10 doesn't equate to brilliant. But it's pretty decent.
B-B-B-BUT SHE RAN IN A STRAIGHT LINE! OLD MAN MAKEUP! SNAKE!
STRAIGHT LINE! OLD MAN MAKEUP! SNAKE!!!!1111oneoneone
Quote from: SM on Jan 01, 2017, 09:21:40 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Dec 05, 2016, 07:27:50 PM
Final question remains: Who f*cked up? Spaiths? Lindelof? Scott? Studio? Or was it a collective failure?
With a good box office and positive response from audience and critics, it was a collective success.
If it was such success they wouldn't have done Alien: Covenant. It wasn't failure either but something went wrong. For that reason they decided to make an
Alien prequel rather than
Prometheus sequel. That's the fact.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jan 04, 2017, 02:09:12 AM
B-B-B-BUT SHE RAN IN A STRAIGHT LINE! OLD MAN MAKEUP! SNAKE!
STRAIGHT LINE! OLD MAN MAKEUP! SNAKE!!!!1111oneoneone
Easy there, your scaring us.
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 04, 2017, 02:35:05 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 01, 2017, 09:21:40 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Dec 05, 2016, 07:27:50 PM
Final question remains: Who f*cked up? Spaiths? Lindelof? Scott? Studio? Or was it a collective failure?
With a good box office and positive response from audience and critics, it was a collective success.
If it was such success they wouldn't have done Alien: Covenant. It wasn't failure either but something went wrong. For that reason they decided to make an Alien prequel rather than Prometheus sequel. That's the fact.
Still not a supposed "collective failure".
Quote from: SM on Jan 04, 2017, 07:43:59 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 04, 2017, 02:35:05 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 01, 2017, 09:21:40 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Dec 05, 2016, 07:27:50 PM
Final question remains: Who f*cked up? Spaiths? Lindelof? Scott? Studio? Or was it a collective failure?
With a good box office and positive response from audience and critics, it was a collective success.
If it was such success they wouldn't have done Alien: Covenant. It wasn't failure either but something went wrong. For that reason they decided to make an Alien prequel rather than Prometheus sequel. That's the fact.
Still not a supposed "collective failure".
Agree. I would place it somewhere in between.
I wouldn't.
It was a successful film just not a really good one.
If it wasn't successful, Covenant probably wouldn't have even been made.
Yeah, Prometheus was a success.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jan 01, 2017, 02:32:07 PM
Don't think Scott had total control here; the decision to hire Lindelof was not his but via "higher ups", the title Prometheus was Tom Rothman's idea, and Seagers told Haag that Ridley wasn't happy with where Prometheus went...
Was that from the Podcast with Wayne? I'll have to listen again.
Scott just confuses me from time to time. He was into 5 drafts with Spaihts where there was still huggers and xenos. And then says the beast is cooked. There is only so much snarling you can do . Perhaps he enjoys contradicting himself.
I just wish he would do like Cameron did with avatar and plan the series and finish the scripts for all those movies in advance while learning form Prometheus. If there Is a movie after this it probably go back closer to Prometheus.
Maybe he's just open to changing his mind.
Ridley's always been paradoxical like that. "I make movies for myself and no one else." yet he admits to being a very studio friendly director.
He probably wants to continue making movies.
Scott's the kind of director who talks about ideas when they're still inklings, and by the time they've actually been fleshed out and developed they've turned into something very different. Any writer or creative person on the planet can relate.
Yep. Problem with putting things 'on the record' - particularly in the age in what we live where old quotes can be easily accessed - is that once the thing that was once mused about is made reality, people start crying that 'Ridley lied!' or 'The studio made him change it'.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 04, 2017, 08:28:38 PM
It was a successful film just not a really good one.
If it wasn't successful, Covenant probably wouldn't have even been made.
And if it was successful Covenant wouldn't have been made either. They would have made
Prometheus sequel with Elizabeth Shaw rather than
Alien prequel with Daniels. Why do you think they got rid of Rapace? Because Prometheus was successful?
Ain't hyperbole grand?
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 05, 2017, 09:48:34 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 04, 2017, 08:28:38 PM
It was a successful film just not a really good one.
If it wasn't successful, Covenant probably wouldn't have even been made.
And if it was successful Covenant wouldn't have been made either. They would have made Prometheus sequel with Elizabeth Shaw rather than Alien prequel with Daniels. Why do you think they got rid of Rapace? Because Prometheus was successful?
Wasnt Ridley who decided to get rid of Shaw? At first he said there wouldnt be aliens, now its full of aliens.
Hard to say whats going in his mind. Maybe he just changed his mind out of nowhere about what he wanted the movie to be like.
I think The Martian influenced the change in direction for Prometheus 2/Alien: Covenant. The Martian was essentially Robinson Crusoe in space, which is what he said Prometheus 2 would be, but then The Martian slid across his desk. He got "his" Robinson Crusoe out of his system, so he had to dramatically change the story of this movie.
My understanding is the studio were pushing for more of a return to Alien with Covenant. I'm hoping it's not going to be one of those misunderstood overcompensations like with AvPR and the gore.
Hopefully we'll get to see the bigger picture when the home releases come out.
Quote from: oduodu on Jan 04, 2017, 10:07:15 PM
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Jan 01, 2017, 02:32:07 PM
Don't think Scott had total control here; the decision to hire Lindelof was not his but via "higher ups", the title Prometheus was Tom Rothman's idea, and Seagers told Haag that Ridley wasn't happy with where Prometheus went...
Was that from the Podcast with Wayne? I'll have to listen again.
Pretty sure it was. It certainly sounded like Scott listened to some of the criticisms levied towards Prometheus. In regards to the Rothman thing, he certainly claims it was -
To be fair, it sounded like it was a bit of a collective decision. I don't think Lindelof was given any specific direction about what they wanted to do with Spaihts' script when it was sent to him, but his opinions aligned with what TPTB were thinking at the time.
Yeah, Damon was the only one who "got it", as Fox had sent "Alien: Zero" out to many writers.
Funnily enough, the deacon ending is only there BECAUSE of Lindelof. He considers it the movie's "punchline" and would be pissed as a fan himself if he didn't see an alien burst out of a body.
I thought that tacked-on scene was just about the biggest insult of the movie.
It served no purpose, it was there just because.
Yeah. The Deacon is... Odd. Now, had it shown up and been the final threat for Shaw and David? Maybe have them do something clever with the engineer tech to defeat it?
That was in fact it's purpose in Spaihts' original script.
They cut the entire final confrontation, but left the birth in there just so they could have something pop out of someone's chest. Why even bother if it's not going to do anything? It's pointless pandering.
Well throughout the whole film you have this twisted family tree creating and mixing, David with the goo to Holloway to Shaw to trilobite to engineer to deacon. The point was that everybody had a hand in making that thing, and that there is human DNA in what we have come to know as the xenomorph. You don't need to see it doing anything else other than being born. It's an alien born from an engineer, just like the runner was an alien born from a dog, or Big Chap was an alien born from a human.
Fitting. Beautiful. Poetic. Even the screech was amazing. In fact, the last thing it felt was tacked on. It was building up to that the entire movie.
It was a convoluted path that insinuated it took a lot of random occurrences to get to something Alien-like. I understand and appreciate the intent but don't dig how it was included in the film.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jan 06, 2017, 11:08:56 AM
Well throughout the whole film you have this twisted family tree creating and mixing, David with the goo to Holloway to Shaw to trilobite to engineer to deacon. The point was that everybody had a hand in making that thing, and that there is human DNA in what we have come to know as the xenomorph. You don't need to see it doing anything else other than being born. It's an alien born from an engineer, just like the runner was an alien born from a dog, or Big Chap was an alien born from a human.
The key difference is we actually to 'know' those creatures. Imagine if Alien 3 ended right after Spike birthed?
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jan 06, 2017, 11:08:56 AM
Fitting. Beautiful. Poetic. Even the screech was amazing. In fact, the last thing it felt was tacked on. It was building up to that the entire movie.
Really? It was? It seemed like it basically came out of left-field. Goo = Cum baby squid + Engineer = blue-man reject xeno. Kay.
What did that teach me, exactly? If you throw a bunch of random crap together you get an inbred with overbite?
Im glad they aren't focusing on Shaw and David adventuring around space. I appreciate a return to a more alien type film as it was originally intended and nothing makes me happier than them pivoting away from prometheus a bit.
The deacon just looked supremely stupid and it felt tacked on and pointless.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jan 06, 2017, 11:01:44 AM
That was in fact it's purpose in Spaihts' original script.
They cut the entire final confrontation, but left the birth in there just so they could have something pop out of someone's chest. Why even bother if it's not going to do anything? It's pointless pandering.
Agreed.
It wasn't even a "deacon" in Spaithts script, it was a full-blown "UltraMorph", a proper "Alien" born of a Space Jockey/Engineer. And at least they had an actual "boss fight" at the end even though I felt it was a little tacky in execution. But the point is, the monster actually served a purpose in the earlier scripts.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jan 06, 2017, 09:20:29 AM
Yeah, Damon was the only one who "got it", as Fox had sent "Alien: Zero" out to many writers.
Yup, he's right up there with Mikey Neumann.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 31, 2021, 02:25:18 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sUTB8UIJBI
Nicely done, Hicks. That's a long piece with lots of tricky detail, but kept on point throughout. And the video lines are da bomb.
Amazing video Hicks. Can't wait for the next one. 8)
ty corporal. nice video
Saw it yesterday. Great stuff.
Man, I'd love to read all those drafts!
(https://y.yarn.co/7add3dcb-a57d-4ea5-b3de-6f86ad9c7a94_text.gif)
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Apr 05, 2021, 09:22:02 PM
Saw it yesterday. Great stuff.
Man, I'd love to read all those drafts!
We've got 2 of Spaihts' and one of Lindelof's in our downloads section.
Downloads section: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/downloads/
Alien: Engineers Script: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/files/scripts/script-alien-engineers-spaihts.pdf
Alien 01: Genesis Script: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/files/scripts/alien-01-genesis-09072010.pdf
Prometheus Script: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/files/scripts/script-paradise-lindelof.pdf
And thanks everyone. :)
I've still not read the Genesis one. Does it differ all that much from Engineers?
Mostly just the setup sequences from what I remember.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 07, 2021, 08:19:09 AM
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Apr 05, 2021, 09:22:02 PM
Saw it yesterday. Great stuff.
Man, I'd love to read all those drafts!
We've got 2 of Spaihts' and one of Lindelof's in our downloads section.
Downloads section: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/downloads/
Alien: Engineers Script: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/files/scripts/script-alien-engineers-spaihts.pdf
Alien 01: Genesis Script: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/files/scripts/alien-01-genesis-09072010.pdf
Prometheus Script: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/files/scripts/script-paradise-lindelof.pdf
And thanks everyone. :)
Thanks but I already read those :)
QuoteAlien 01: Genesis Script: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/files/scripts/alien-01-genesis-09072010.pdf
I hope someday Marvel will issue a comic book based on it.