I remember while watching Prometheus and Covenant for the first time i hadn't actually realise how stupid some (OK, most) chararacter's actions and decisions were untill i went to Net and saw other people reviews and that stupidity of characters was a big deal. Maybe, i didn't concentrate on that too much. Anyway, i think that really helped me to apreciate these movies more
Has anyone been in similiar type of situation?
First watch of Prometheus it went over my head. Did become obvious on repeat viewings. With Covenant it was pretty clear from the start.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Feb 06, 2019, 10:05:04 PM
With Covenant it was pretty clear from the start.
You mean trailer where they don't wearing helmets, don't you? Because that was NOT obvious for me.
It does become more obvious after the first watch.
I'll say this for Covenant, I ask:
Why don't they wear helmets?
Why do people trust David?
And that's pretty much it.
Whereas with Prometheus, there's hardly a moment onscreen
I'm not asking why characters are doing things a particular way.
Both films have moments where characters do inexplicably dumb things (Covenant less so). Doesn't really affect my enjoyment of either film to any great degree.
Quote from: SM on Feb 06, 2019, 11:18:13 PM
Both films have moments where characters do inexplicably dumb things (Covenant less so). Doesn't really affect my enjoyment of either film to any great degree.
Yeah, same. Sure there's some
dumb stuff in there but I mean.. they're movies.
'ALIENS' also has characters doing stupid shit. From Vasquez idiot comment "I only need to know one thing..." and Hudson declaring "How do I get out of this chickenshit outfit?" to Gorman putting all his men in danger by having them stow their arms. What a f**khead. lol.
All these movies have moments of stupid. Space monster has murdered the crew and the ship is about to explode... must get cat. lol.
I'm not saying 'PROMETHEUS' and 'ALIEN Covenant' are without fault - because they certainly do have issues - but the finger pointing in this regard can be made at the other movies, too.
-Windebieste.
Honestly I think Scott gets a kick out of portraying foolish humans. Think about it. ;D
I kinda bought the whole helmet thing for Covenant though, as they aren't scientists but colonists. In Prometheus it was just dumb.
But they still haven't explained why the Space Jockey in Alien is (at least) 3 times as big as the Engineers portrayed in Prometheus and Covenant.
It will be a mutant engineer slave made by David. Oh yes. :D ;D
Quote from: P-Rock on Feb 07, 2019, 10:27:22 AM
But they still haven't explained why the Space Jockey in Alien is (at least) 3 times as big as the Engineers portrayed in Prometheus and Covenant.
The size was retconned. Ridley doesn't care.
Maybe Necro II gets his wish and it's a juicy engineer mutant beast of burden slave abomination made by David.
That would explain the size difference quite reasonable.
Das it. The juice must flow. ;D
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Feb 07, 2019, 01:32:51 PM
It will be a mutant engineer slave made by David. Oh yes. :D ;D
This post is hereby quarantined for lack of juice.
Quote from: windebieste on Feb 07, 2019, 02:06:42 AM
'ALIENS' also has characters doing stupid shit. From Vasquez idiot comment "I only need to know one thing..." and Hudson declaring "How do I get out of this chickenshit outfit?" to Gorman putting all his men in danger by having them stow their arms. What a f**khead. lol.
Vasquez and Hudson were taking the piss. Gorman was already established earlier on as being greener than the grass of Ireland. And they couldn't have any firing in there because otherwise, big badaboom.
Yeah, it's not remotely the same. The most questionable thing in Aliens is leaving absolutely no-one on the ship.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 07, 2019, 09:55:35 PM
Yeah, it's not remotely the same. The most questionable thing in Aliens is leaving absolutely no-one on the ship.
It's obviously not a movie-breaker, but that bugs me too. Didn't occur to me until after many viewings though.
The only thing in Covenant that personally bugged me on first viewing was Tennessee taking the huge Covenant ship full of colonists down to the surface.
The crew didn't wear protective gear because they had scanners telling them the air was safe... and it was. The spores only entered them when they got kicked up. (It's also more expensive to shoot and harder to tell who's who when your characters are all in air-tight suits.) So this didn't bug me at first and it still doesn't.
I really don't understand why people question the crew trusting David. He saves them from the neomorphs and leads them to shelter. When Oram witnesses David interacting with one, he loses trust and gets edgy.
Oram looked into the egg out of curiousity from a slight distance with a gun in his hand. (I see people describe Oram as if he's literally one plastering his face into the egg, but he's standing straight up and his face is a good three feet from it.) I probably would have done the same thing. He hasn't seen any Alien movies, so he's not expecting a critter that can instantly leap several meters to be inside. He assumes the short distance and weapon for defense are adequate if anything dangerous is inside.
Huh, never noticed Oram having a gun in his hand.
Never considered the Tennessee thing a problem, he does stay above the danger threshold after all.
But for the whole Spores thing, the only way that could've worked for me is if David made it clear the Pathogen's so advanced it can hide from planetary scans.
Tennessee and Upworth issue a command override to descend closer than structural tolerances allow.
QuoteI really don't understand why people question the crew trusting David. He saves them from the neomorphs and leads them to shelter. When Oram witnesses David interacting with one, he loses trust and gets edgy.
Oram looked into the egg out of curiousity from a slight distance with a gun in his hand. (I see people describe Oram as if he's literally one plastering his face into the egg, but he's standing straight up and his face is a good three feet from it.) I probably would have done the same thing. He hasn't seen any Alien movies, so he's not expecting a critter that can instantly leap several meters to be inside. He assumes the short distance and weapon for defense are adequate if anything dangerous is inside.
Ditto and ditto.
He just used in on the Neomorph and he's holding it in his right hand. It is lowered and out of shot for most of the scene; however, at the very least the green laser sight is clearly visible in in the darkness in a couple of shots when he's walking around in the egg nursery.
I have no problems with this scene. As David's Creation states, it's a solid scene. Most of the movie is. My only issues with it are the same as 'PROMETHEUS' - some of the dialogue is just bad. For example, the scene where they descend to the planet's surface the banter is execrable. They are about to land on another planet and all they can talk about is dicks and tits. Wow... Just... wow.
Here's another fine example during the same scene Hallet comments "I hate space!" This is just such a lolworthy comment. They're no longer in space - they are entering the planet's atmosphere. A much more intelligent and meaningful comment would have been "I hate descents!"
With just the alteration of a single word, this small piece of dialogue changes from being an ill considered chat to something much more respectful of the material, of the character, his understanding of his situation and what's going on around him. It gives the writer and director more more credibility that they understand what they are making. It's unfortunate that such pieces of dialogue are present in these movies - especially 'PROMETHEUS' as just about every piece of dialogue between Milburn and Fifield should have been re-written.
As for the flute scene and David's 'fingering' comment, that was fantastic. David's machine mind expression of eroticism and attempt at bonding with Walter (His narcissistic allusion to himself) was based on his twisted and perverted understanding of human intimacy and need to gain an ally. Something he completely lacks any real knowledge of and of course it comes across as infantile and peurile.
It's meant to be. In many ways David is just a child, playing with fire.
-Windebieste.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 07, 2019, 09:55:35 PM
Yeah, it's not remotely the same. The most questionable thing in Aliens is leaving absolutely no-one on the ship.
I don't know, finding evidence of facehuggers (and acid burns) - thus confirming Ripley's story about parasites laying embryos in throats - should have been fair warning to adopt the precaution of wearing masks. With a potential biological threat, wearing NBC suits would have been proper prudence, especially given how they enter the atmosphere processor infested with unknown biological material; breathing in all that dry heat, touching resin...
Damn, never thought of that.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Feb 09, 2019, 10:07:55 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 07, 2019, 09:55:35 PM
Yeah, it's not remotely the same. The most questionable thing in Aliens is leaving absolutely no-one on the ship.
I don't know, finding evidence of facehuggers (and acid burns) - thus confirming Ripley's story about parasites laying embryos in throats - should have been fair warning to adopt the precaution of wearing masks. With a potential biological threat, wearing NBC suits would have been proper prudence, especially given how they enter the atmosphere processor infested with unknown biological material; breathing in all that dry heat, touching resin...
Good point! I think that often people overrated inteligence in older movies and underrated it in new ones.
Lmao I'm going to certainly ruffle some feathers with the upcoming interview ;D HAS TO BE DONE.
(https://i.imgur.com/I2EU3SX.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7aVpmjz.jpg)
Oh wait...
(https://i.imgur.com/1CggvCK.jpg)
:D
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Feb 09, 2019, 10:07:55 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 07, 2019, 09:55:35 PM
Yeah, it's not remotely the same. The most questionable thing in Aliens is leaving absolutely no-one on the ship.
I don't know, finding evidence of facehuggers (and acid burns) - thus confirming Ripley's story about parasites laying embryos in throats - should have been fair warning to adopt the precaution of wearing masks. With a potential biological threat, wearing NBC suits would have been proper prudence, especially given how they enter the atmosphere processor infested with unknown biological material; breathing in all that dry heat, touching resin...
Ripley didn't contract any disease when she encountered the Alien on the Nostromo.
Yeah but she had no idea what that infestation was; the colony is missing, there's potential parasites that can lay embryos in throats running about... It follows that NBC suits would have been proper prudence when encountering a biological threat like that, or this awesomeness -
(https://i.imgur.com/C2hxS6R.jpg)
;D
"There's nothing they can't handle. Lieutenant, am I right?"
"That's true. We've been trained to deal with situations like this."
I think the lack of preparedness was the point.
Perhaps they thought it was pointless? Being that the Alien burned through Kane's helmet, the lack of proper protection you can criticise but it partially comes down to not believing Ripley's story.
Initially. But once they find the acid holes and huggers - they'd believe her.
Not exactly pointless, they'd have a chance at least, why wear armour then... ;D Yeah I understand the Vietnam allegory, etc, they were never trained to encounter bugs quite like that before, hence the NBC suits. Arrogant, haughty, yes, Milburn was cocky too, but he was never briefed about a potential endoparasitoid, at least he had a helmet on. ;D
In the same way Ripley didn't get sick from the Alien - neither did Newt.
She survived, yes, yet there's still a potential threat, there were survivors from atomic blasts too. ;D
Yeah, and the resin's entirely new.
Exactly. It's simply about minimising risk as much as possible.
El riesgo siempre vive.
Adios, the one who takes that risk.
Farewell indeed. ;D
I think the difference is that the lack of biohazard material doesn't really drive parts of the plot in Aliens. But let's be honest, it does get a pass because it's more all around a a better experience and people are less likely to pick faults with something they enjoy.
For me, I don't think it's the characters being stupid as such. I think the film suffers a bit at the hands of its creator. ADF has them run mcguffin scans to make sure the planet is safe. Ridley can't be bothered by that. The scene with David looking over the eggs and nothing happening should have also been left in so it doesn't seem as daft.
David does walk among the eggs and standing very close to them when Oram is attacked, which would help the latter think there's nothing untoward.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 11, 2019, 01:48:27 PM
I think the difference is that the lack of biohazard material doesn't really drive parts of the plot in Aliens. But let's be honest, it does get a pass because it's more all around a a better experience and people are less likely to pick faults with something they enjoy.
For me, I don't think it's the characters being stupid as such. I think the film suffers a bit at the hands of its creator. ADF has them run mcguffin scans to make sure the planet is safe. Ridley can't be bothered by that. The scene with David looking over the eggs and nothing happening should have also been left in so it doesn't seem as daft.
Not entirely true, the ship does make scans of the planet but it's treated as background information.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 11, 2019, 01:48:27 PM
But let's be honest, it does get a pass because it's more all around a a better experience and people are less likely to pick faults with something they enjoy.
Totally agreed. If people like something in general they can forgive some faults but if they don't like experience in general they gonna dig into what movie did wrong here and there
To me, Prometheus characters seemed to do far dumber things than the Covenant crew. At least, enough for me to notice on the first watch. I'll never forget that stupid "getting lost and petting a hissing alien snake" scene.
I sort of think the blind trust the people in Covenant have in technology is an interesting aspect. I don't know if it's deliberate but it fits nicely in our times with the uncertainty of how humans and technology will co-exist in the future. There's a feeling in that film that humans are so used to technology that they never question it. They scan the planet and totally trust the results, then they meet David and don't even think that he could deceive... because he's a robot and it shouldn't happen, but it does. Even in Oram's final moments, he doesn't stop to think that David could be setting him up.
To be fair, everything they scanned about the planet - habitability, weather, etc. - proved correct.
Daniels should've gotten on the horn back to the Company and told them to develop a scan for murderous androids for future missions. Would've helped the Nostromo immensely. ;D
Quote from: Jarac on Feb 12, 2019, 02:30:55 AM
To me, Prometheus characters seemed to do far dumber things than the Covenant crew. At least, enough for me to notice on the first watch. I'll never forget that stupid "getting lost and petting a hissing alien snake" scene.
The getting lost scene feels like there was something missing, like an insert or some kind of explanation showing why the equipment wasn't working. But the "petting the alien" scene has always been one of the lamer complaints with the film because it lines up directly with the character of Milborne, who's an overeager biologist who is just wants to find some critters. Sadly they cut the scene showing his uncontrollable glee with the little worms before things go bad, but that still doesn't remove it from his character.
He's a Steve Irwin type. He loves all living creatures and against better judgement, wants to pet it. That's his flaw. And he pays for it. I think having every character react "rationally" would make for a pretty short and not very realistic film. People don't act rationally all the time, in some cases, at all. So it's fine to have characters do dumb things if it lines up with who they are.
Vicker's death is dumb though. There's no excuse for that.
I don't mind the Millburn hammerpede scene that much, but it's undermined by him running away from the much safer dead biological specimen.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 11, 2019, 08:04:58 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 11, 2019, 01:48:27 PM
I think the difference is that the lack of biohazard material doesn't really drive parts of the plot in Aliens. But let's be honest, it does get a pass because it's more all around a a better experience and people are less likely to pick faults with something they enjoy.
For me, I don't think it's the characters being stupid as such. I think the film suffers a bit at the hands of its creator. ADF has them run mcguffin scans to make sure the planet is safe. Ridley can't be bothered by that. The scene with David looking over the eggs and nothing happening should have also been left in so it doesn't seem as daft.
Not entirely true, the ship does make scans of the planet but it's treated as background information.
I wouldn't say it's treated as background information. The lack of alarm in the scans is brought up a few times and it's one of the things that's paid some attention to during Ledward's interaction with the motes. He doesn't think anything can hurt him.
Quote from: SM on Feb 12, 2019, 04:27:19 AM
I don't mind the Millburn hammerpede scene that much, but it's undermined by him running away from the much safer dead biological specimen.
Was he running away from the dead engineers or too scared to face the reality that he himself was the product of a biological experiment that he previously deemed ridiculous? It's speculation but I've always got that impression from his actions.
Quote from: PsyKore on Feb 12, 2019, 03:09:19 AM
I sort of think the blind trust the people in Covenant have in technology is an interesting aspect. I don't know if it's deliberate but it fits nicely in our times with the uncertainty of how humans and technology will co-exist in the future. There's a feeling in that film that humans are so used to technology that they never question it. They scan the planet and totally trust the results, then they meet David and don't even think that he could deceive... because he's a robot and it shouldn't happen, but it does. Even in Oram's final moments, he doesn't stop to think that David could be setting him up.
Into my opinion it was really intentional despite it sounds as trying to justify lazy writing
Quote from: Alien³ on Feb 12, 2019, 10:28:55 AM
Quote from: SM on Feb 12, 2019, 04:27:19 AM
I don't mind the Millburn hammerpede scene that much, but it's undermined by him running away from the much safer dead biological specimen.
Was he running away from the dead engineers or too scared to face the reality that he himself was the product of a biological experiment that he previously deemed ridiculous? It's speculation but I've always got that impression from his actions.
Nah, I just reckon he was being an inconsistent wuss and wanting to suck up to Fifield.
The Prometheus characters are far more unbelievable than those of Covenant for my money, that even includes those in both.
The space truckers in Alien were smarter than all of the characters in the prequels.
The USCM squad were smarter than all the characters in the prequels, albeit far more arrogant and ill prepared.
The space truckers tried to take all the right precautions, Ash just (purposefully) mucked everything up.
The reason the marines are ill prepared in the movie seems pretty obvious to me. No one believes Ripley's account of what happened and they've also probably never encountered anything like the Alien before. That coupled with the fact the colony hadn't found anything like what she described (Prior to Burkes message) makes the scenario believable to me.
Even if they did believe here I don't think they'd have anything to properly combat/prevent what she described, but if we follow the EU (specifically Berserker) we know that they did develop weapons and equipment (Teape's deploy-able mask, the actual Berserker unit) as an answer to the Alien.
Certain character choices in Prometheus are pretty stupid after you watch it more than once. Scientists choosing to take off their helmets and breathe alien air is one of the most glaring to me. It would have been just as easy for them to write that someones helmet cracked, or they were running low on oxygen and a crew member chose to take the risk rather than die (ala Red Planet).
I give the biologist a little bit of a pass for getting close to the hammerpede, but only because he seemed to let his excitement get the better of him. Still a stupid choice though.
The same argument can easily be made for the first half of Covenant. Colonists or not, they really should have treated the situation with more caution. Admittedly I don't remember what scans they did, but do we know if the scans also accounted for something microbial/viral? Or if it also picked up wild life?
I mean I wouldn't want to go down to the surface of a planet without for sure knowing something in the water/air wont kill me, or without knowing that there's something down there like an alien brown recluse whose bite wont melt half my flesh off.
Not only did the space truckers try to take all the right precautions, they were also CREATIVE.
They tried every solution they could think of, and after the chestburster sequence they also started building things. First the electric spears, then the incineration units, and in the novelization even the net they use is made for the occasion, designed specifically to resist molecular acid.
No one makes anything like that in any of the sequels, the characters do not create anymore, they just use stuff which is already there. :( The closer you get to the combative inventivity of the Nostromo crew is the repurposing of the containment room and lead crucible in Alien 3.
Yeah the Nostromo crew did the right thing by letting Alien on board against regulations and then had to hunt for the Alien without being able to use video cameras they didn't bother to repair.
Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 07:08:12 PM
Yeah the Nostromo crew did the right thing by letting Alien on board against regulations and then had to hunt for the Alien without being able to use video cameras they didn't bother to repair.
Technically Ash is the only one responsible for letting it in
Dallas ordered the door be opened (in defiance of quarantine protocols - and balled Ripley out for not complying; supported by Lambert) and that they take off without completing repairs.
He was complicit.
Dallas shares some of the blame for sure, but Ash actually did it.
Ripley, Parker and Brett aren't really at any kind of fault
I'm challenging the notions above that 'the space truckers were smarter and took precautions'.
its basically arguing "street smart vs book smart"
If they'd been 'by-the-book smart' in Alien - they would've lived.
For what it's worth, an earlier draft of Prometheus apparently had Vickers say she hired idiots on purpose to sabotage her father's mission.
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 13, 2019, 05:37:18 PM
Not only did the space truckers try to take all the right precautions, they were also CREATIVE.
They tried every solution they could think of, and after the chestburster sequence they also started building things. First the electric spears, then the incineration units, and in the novelization even the net they use is made for the occasion, designed specifically to resist molecular acid.
No one makes anything like that in any of the sequels, the characters do not create anymore, they just use stuff which is already there. :( The closer you get to the combative inventivity of the Nostromo crew is the repurposing of the containment room and lead crucible in Alien 3.
Never thought about that before! :)
They improvised in Aliens and Alien 3 too.
(https://y.yarn.co/9d47a31b-a9f3-4090-b880-2a685df593df_text_hi.gif)
Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 08:15:58 PM
If they'd been 'by-the-book smart' in Alien - they would've lived.
Well that's different than street smart or book smart
Is book smart not learnng from what's written in a book?
What do you do when the book conflicts with what the company tells you to do?
It depends if they just tell you, or the hell tell you.
Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 10:07:34 PM
Is book smart not learnng from what's written in a book?
I thought you meant like how Ripley was attempting to be by the book with the quarantine procedures.
I kinda was.
To be honest I'm not sure what you were getting at with the book smart vs. street smart thing.
Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 10:07:34 PM
Is book smart not learnng from what's written in a book?
No.
It's knowing what's in a book before you read it. ;D
The mask thing doesn't bother me, It just wouldn't be an enjoyable viewing experience watching people in space helmets and that's enough for me to bypass anything to do with that.
The Oram thing though...he walks right through the beastery with an Egg in it that shows the facehugger inside, Davids telling him he's been making things, there's things on the desk, he's seen the things. It's not Kane at all, but that's the common comparison.
Really needed David to make him do it and not Oram be a turd... OR put the scene in where David floats his head above the egg.
Oram's biggest mistake is that he hadn't seen the other films in the series. If he did he would know whats up.
It's like seeing your wife killed by a shark, then seeing more sharks as you reach safety, then meeting a guy that's been experimenting on making other sharks. Then that guy says, come for a swim, we will talk about what I been doing.....
Quote from: CelticP on Feb 14, 2019, 05:50:57 AM
Oram's biggest mistake is that he hadn't seen the other films in the series. If he did he would know whats up.
All Bible and no horror movies makes Chris a dead boy.
Poor Chris Oram. ):
Remember Ripley visiting Ash telling him that while Dallas is off ship the next person in command is in command (which happened to be her ) and that was standard practice which means Dallas (albeit the Capitan) was not in charge was allowed aboard the ship by Ash who was supposed to following standard operating manual. Dallas in the airlock does not equate back in the ship in charge. He first had to be cleared of infection . This is to ensure that the person making that decision is not emotionally compromised and to ensure the safety of the crew .
Ripley clearly stated that she couldn't authorise such an action
That's the way i understand it.
As for stupidity -----scripts---------- nudge nudge wink wink ..................... ah never mind......
What's that in response to ???
Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 07:19:56 PM
Dallas ordered the door be opened (in defiance of quarantine protocols - and balled Ripley out for not complying; supported by Lambert) and that they take off without completing repairs.
He was complicit.
I am saying whatever Dallas did Ash was supposed to listen to Ripley. Its the second time that happened . When mother indicated that the signal was a warning he defied her when she wanted someone to go and warn Dallas and co. If he had listened they would not have had this problem . I would assume that warning crew of a possible threat must be a priority. just saying.
OK maybe getting face hugged was still a possibility.
Sorry the statement was actually directed not really at SM but at that post in which was the answer accepted by all on the issue of "letting people aboard" as an act of stupidity answered by SM (and quite correctly) that Dallas was implicit . My point is that should never have happened based on standard operating procedure. So Ash by and large in his capacity as a an agent of the company was responsible in two occasions for letting things happened which shouldn't have, The first setting up the second to a degree. Hence no stupidity. They were coerced by Ash who had a mandate to full fill. Alien is a well written movie.
I don't understand the whole helmet removal issue in Prometheus. Before they removed there helmets Holloway asks David if something is generating an atmosphere and he replies "yes" or "correct". Supposedly David follows Asimov's 3 robot laws like Bishop does. Then someone remarks "cleaner than earth's actually" and David doesn't refute it. When they get to ampule room Shaw clearly tells David not to open the ampule room as they don't know what is is on the rather side. He clearly ignores her and says"sorry" in a sort of "oops my mistake" sarcastic way. Now they are helmetless in a possibly infected room.
What's my point? In both Alien and Prometheus a compromised android sets up at least two events that leads to people being infected. Why is it stupidity in Prometheus and not Alien? Everybody expects the android to protect them. its 2093 isn't it?
as for other issues of stupidity ..............nudge nudge wink wink
I like your thoughts actually. I think that people have habbit to consider old movies from their childhood as flawless unbeatable masterpieces.
The two examples aren't comparing apples with apples though.
Quote from: SM on Feb 14, 2019, 06:15:47 AM
Quote from: CelticP on Feb 14, 2019, 05:50:57 AM
Oram's biggest mistake is that he hadn't seen the other films in the series. If he did he would know whats up.
All Bible and no horror movies makes Chris a dead boy.
Indeed.
"Don't let the sex monsters take you by surprise. Watch hardcore porn".
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/16/21/8f/16218ff67919b7fed299db9b5197a657.jpg)
"The next life you save, might just be your own."
This message has been brought to you by the greater San Fernando Valley Porn Cooperative, and Switzerland.
@OP, instantly.