Alien 3 - Love it or Hate It

[SiL]

Yeah but why all the twists and turns?  What purpose do the serve other than to make for an exciting chase sequence?

Same reason a motion tracker goes "B-DEEP" very loudly.

[SM]

Thought as much. 

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

Yeah.  All we get is Morse hanging shit on Ripley cos "she brought the f**ker".  They could've gone down another road of Ripley being some harbinger bringing the avenging angel of the Alien to punish the sinners (or at least that's how the prisoners would've viewed her).  But they didn't.  The religious angle was really downplayed - when it could've been used to isolate Ripley all the more.  Instead she buddies up with Clemens with, then once he's dead she buddies up with Dillon; in spite of his earlier veiled hostility which suddenly evaporates with one line.

I think they balanced it pretty damn well. Too much of that religious stuff and it would have been bad for the 'realism' in the movie. The way it is now the convicts feel more like 'regular people' that happen to suppress their criminal baggage/instincts by confessing to some old testament kind of god. Some of them are more serious about religion than others though.

The reason they hold onto this religion is because it gives them a meaning to live instead of slaughtering each other like pigs over bread crumbs and cigarettes*... but if they had the chance they would leave that rock without beating an eyelash... except for Dillon, who actually seems to believe in God, or at least he has brainwashed himself to do that as a way to save himself from himself and the laws of Man. So, when Ripley arrives, the whole communion seems to be at risk at first as Ripley reminds them about the world outside (or more like the world out there). They first see it as God testing their faith, but as the Dragon reveals itself they mix religion with primal instincts and good old teamwork (the Holy Trinity of Fiorina maybe?) in order to "conquer" the evil outside and the evil within.

Yeah but why all the twists and turns?  What purpose do the serve other than to make for an exciting chase sequence?

I thought the place was a lead works and thus I assumed those tunnels were service tunnels located underneath the facilities above, and that the doors/bulkheads were needed to cut of certain sections of the tunnels in case of emergency, like a hot lead leakage or poisonous gas le...

[MadassAlex]

If you want to see how extremist religion can work in sci-fi, I encourage you to read into Warhammer 40,000. The vast majority of humanity is unified under a highly militant kind of Roman Catholicism, stripping downs right back down to pre-Renaissance times where heresy is the highest of sins and religious power is ultimate. 

I feel ALIEN 3 missed out by downplaying the role of religion. Dillon was like a hard-ass warrior monk and that was really cool, but apart from him it was almost non-existent - barely referenced by a few of the other inmates.

As for the inmates only wanting to get out, I might remind you that the movie states, explicitly and on numerous occasions that those who remain do so by choice. It used to have the capacity to hold 5000 men, and now holds less than 30.

[SM]

Warhammer sounds a bit like Termight (Earth in the distant future) in Nemesis the warlock.  Not so much religious, but owes a great deal to the Spanish Inquisition (chief weapons being surprise, fear, ruthless efficiency and a nice red uniform).

Getting back to Alien3, the religious thing really did drop off in the second half.  In the theatrical cut at least.  I think Dillon did a couple of slow preachy praying bits in longer cuts.  A couple of nice beats set up early could've been referenced again like the swearing and Morse's 'celibacy includes women' bit.  Even if they were done for a gag.

I remember one of Ward's drafts had Ripley walking into a burning field at the end.  I reckon that would've been fantastic.  Which is neither here nor there really - the falling into the furnace was a great way t end it too.

[MadassAlex]

Personally, I liked the concept of ALIEN 3 taking place in an area that's cold and forested, like the woodlands of Scandinavia, centred around a monastery. Imagine panning up, the camera crawling up the architecture, the gargoyles leering at yo- that's not a f**king gargoyle. I hope this is still used one day, in some form. Perhaps adapted for AvP?

Shit, that has potential.

[SM]

The Name Of The Alien?

Ron Perlman can play Johner AND Salvatore.  Genius!

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

If you want to see how extremist religion can work in sci-fi, I encourage you to read into Warhammer 40,000. The vast majority of humanity is unified under a highly militant kind of Roman Catholicism, stripping downs right back down to pre-Renaissance times where heresy is the highest of sins and religious power is ultimate.

I'm well aware of the 40k universe (me and my geeky friends played the board game like crazy back in the day), lore and tidbits. The kind of extremist fantasy religion presented in 40k doesn't fit the Alien universe at all because it's too much and over the top (note: even though A:R kind of took a step closer to that direction). One of the things that attract me about the (first three) Alien movies is that they feel 'realistic' when it comes to the mundane everyday lives of 'regular' people. I also love the lack of near super-human heroes (that's one of the reasons why I hate the last 15 or 20 minutes in Aliens). Alien 3's depiction of religious extremism is much more accurate than the one in 40k. On the other hand the zealots in 40k are at war against physical and magical/extra-dimensional enemies whereas the convicts on Fiorina are at war with themselves.

I feel ALIEN 3 missed out by downplaying the role of religion. Dillon was like a hard-ass warrior monk and that was really cool, but apart from him it was almost non-existent - barely referenced by a few of the other inmates.

I like the way they 'downplayed' it so that it became subtle instead of in-your-face. The reason the other inmates tagged along with Dillon is simply because he indirectly offered them peace, order and meaning, as well as something to do. So, they were not necessarily religious per se rather than them starving for a solid rock to hold onto out there in that rundown dark damp hellhole in the ass-end of space (...in a way the whole prison complex and its lead works and furnace is a depiction of hell... the Alien – the Angel of Death; the Company – the Beast, the Devil).

They were just a bunch of miserable forever lost fkucs who were lucky enough to find a good solid leader able to offer them a peace of mind.

As for the inmates only wanting to get out, I might remind you that the movie states, explicitly and on numerous occasions that those who remain do so by choice. It used to have the capacity to hold 5000 men, and now holds less than 30.

You're right about that, but still, it doesn't mean that the ones who decided to stay necessarily were a bunch of hardcore believers in God. Much like Clemens, they stayed because they had something going there, something to occupy themselves with... a tranquil alternate reality where they could pretend the outside world didn't exist. If they were transfered they would have to start all over again; once again shank and shiv their way through prison hierarchy, to hopefully find some group willing to welcome them (through butt rape)... Despite the bugs, the rust, the shitty weather and the lack of ice cream, I think Fiorina is the closest thing to home these doomed bastards will ever get before it's time for them meet their angry maker.

I'm actually surprised, now when I'm thinking about it, that only 30 out of 5000 inmates chose to stay. Or maybe the facility only had the capacity for 30 inmates after that the Company partially shut the whole place down. Maybe the ones we learned to know in Alien 3 were the lucky (exceptionally good behavior maybe?) ones?

[Kimarhi]

Dillon didn't offer them just religion, he promised he would beat them with 4' lead pipes if they acted up.

[MadassAlex]

I don't think WH40k's religious fervor is that unrealistic, given that we've been through a stage in history already where that was reality.

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

I don't think WH40k's religious fervor is that unrealistic, given that we've been through a stage in history already where that was reality.

Sure, it's realistic within the boundaries of the 40K universe, but in the Alien universe a religion like that would stick out like a sore thumb. The Company would've silenced Dillon long ago if he was more of the crazed militant religious fundamentalist extremist type. 40K has it's own lore and universe that has nothing in common with the Alien lore and universe - it wouldn't transfer well.

[MadassAlex]

Given how heavily WH40k draws from ALIEN to begin with, I wouldn't quite say that. After all, one of the biggest plot devices in the fluff is essentially the Alien concept taken to its logical conclusion.

I'd just like to make two points:

1. There'd be no point in silencing Dillon, since he and roughly 25 other prisoners would be absolutely no threat whatsoever to anyone. On a planet like that, where they are the entire population, it's a non-issue. Killing them would be a waste of money for the Company.

2. Not all inhabited planets are going to share the same culture or views. That's one of the things that ensures that sci-fi settings have so much potential. I could easily imagine that a couple of colonised planets might become unofficially theocratic or monarchistic. Hell, the prison in ALIEN 3 was almost theocratic anyway; Dillon, the religious leader and interpreter of the Word of God acts as the true ringmaster. Only a few details prevent it from being a true theocracy, but its well on its way.

[SM]

Evangelical and puritanical religious types woud be the first to sign up to colonise other planets, just like they did with the New World.  Seem to recall Heinlein touching on that in Starship Troopers.