I personally think it did Alien 3 did NOT need to be made enough said
The franchise is still around, so obviously it didn't kill it.
Didn't do it any favours though.
Resurrection hurt the franchise more, but as SM said, it's still around today so no movie killed the franchise, they we just not as good as the first 2.
As a kid i was a huge Aliens fan, Mariens,Weapons bumm bumm ahhh kaboom.
Nowdays at almost 40 i look back and think Alien3 was the best for the franchise.
When i rewatch aliens i now only see cheesy 80 stuff and think killing the aliens charakters off was the best move they could do.
I have to say that for me personally the whole extended universe stuff that mostly originates from aliens is just awful.
And yes Resurrection is the one that almost killed the franchise.
Alien 3 was brilliant, especially compared to the 3 turds after it
A:R did the most damage of the first 4.
A3 hurt somewhat. I think it redeemed itself with the Assembly Cut, but how many people in the general.audience have seen that?
I would imagine very few have seen the longer, slower, more redundant cut that doesn't fix any of the theatrical versions problems (TM).
ALIEN & ALIENS was more than enough. Ripley got the happy ending she deserved. It should have been left at that.
'ALIEN' didn't need a sequel.
If Cameron hadn't been brought on board as a director, his 'Mother' script would have been made into a different property launching movie, the first of many.
As for killing of the series. No. 'ALIEN 3' did not kill it off. 'ALIEN Resurrection' followed, so there's that. The series kind of diverted with the 2 'AvP' movies and it is now healthy again. 'PROMETHEUS' and 'ALIEN Covenant' are much better movies than some people would have you believe.
Oh, sure. The precious fanboi Blomkamp retcon got canned. Too bad; but that was a good move to lose that. Nonetheless the whole "I don't like the new movies." attitude is a failure to manage expectations more than anything else - and is not the fault of the movies themselves.
The series is healthy now as it ever was. There's a ton of licenced content in every form. It's only been 2 years since 'Covenant' was released. We'll get another movie sometime.
So no. 'ALIEN 3' did not kill the franchise. lol.
What needs to die is the whole precocious attitude that only the first 2 movies matter. That's a poor state of play we must get around and put aside. It's just a form of fan bigotry. You don't see fans of movies post 1986 'ALIEN/S' movies pointing the finger at the first two movies and getting away with "they suck!"
This attitude has to change.
-Windebieste.
Some things never change.
Quote from: SM on Aug 29, 2019, 09:25:09 PM
I would imagine very few have seen the longer, slower, more redundant cut that doesn't fix any of the theatrical versions problems (TM).
Meh I haven't seen the theatrical in about 15 years so I can't even directly compare. I just remember thinking the assembly cut was better and I've stuck with it.
If anything could've killed the franchise, it would've been Alien Resurrection.
Alien 3: AC is solid.
It didn't kill it, but it did irreparably damage it imo. Quite easy to ignore it (and Resurrection) if you don't like them though. Thread seems a bit "baity" to me, hope that wasn't the intention?
There is no "franchise". There is ONLY A L I E N and A L I E N S. What came later is either gravy or ass gravy depending on the viewer.
Quote from: razeak on Aug 30, 2019, 04:28:10 AM
Quote from: SM on Aug 29, 2019, 09:25:09 PM
I would imagine very few have seen the longer, slower, more redundant cut that doesn't fix any of the theatrical versions problems (TM).
Meh I haven't seen the theatrical in about 15 years so I can't even directly compare. I just remember thinking the assembly cut was better and I've stuck with it.
More people than not love the Assembly Cut, so I think it's safe to say you're in the majority there. Personally, I love Alien 3 in both forms but I agree that I'd normally watch the AC over the TE, despite preferring certain aspects of the TE more. Yeah, it's still flawed but I dig the alterations.
This franchise can never die simply because of the first two films. Terminator is the same. Terminator has probably had way worse sequels than Alien (IMO), but on the strength of the first two, they'll just keep making more.
I absolutely love Alien 3, I watch the assembly cut most and I'm at a point where I can pretty much recite the entire film but I still love watching it. I prefer the "explosion and aftermath" scene in the Theatrical version, it's longer and I personally feel worse as they walk around and collect the bodies.
Also the soundtrack is absolutely amazing.
Didn't kill it but didn't make it stronger either. It's pretty much the same for everything after Aliens.
I love Alien 3, but I do think it divided the fanbase.
Each entry since has divided the fans further. It seems like the franchise walks away with fewer fans each time.
The only way major franchises like this can last is if they pander and play it safe like Disney does.
I think 3, Resurrection, Prometheus, and Covenant were all bold in their own ways and I love them for it, but as much as it pains me to say: Blomkamp's idea would likely have been a financial success.
The essembly cut of 3 is my favourite after the first one. Aliens is an amazing movie when you are a kid but once you know every action beat the movie just doesnt have the weight and substance of 1 and 3 to sustain my interest.
I feel bad for Michael Biehn but 3 was a good ending for the franchise and Ripley.
I don't think Alien 3 killed the franchise, if anything it kept it going. Personally I don't like it, it was a bizarre way of trying to end the series but then again nothing in life is so clear cut and conventional. When you think about it, Alien could have taken so many different routes but instead 20th Century Fox decided to take a comventional route and continued the story with Ripley and her battles with the Xenomorphs. One route that I suggested a while back and I believe must have been on the mind of Neill Blomkamp as well for a possible Alien 5 is Ripley, Newt and Hicks return to Earth and finally deal with not only the Xenomorph threat but the source of it: Weyland-Yutani. This would have been an even more cliche overdone theme basically closing the series with a bang. The only thing unconventional about this concept is that usually in a conclusion, the protagonists return to the source but in this case it is not a place, it was a little explained entity in Alien and Aliens where we find all the answers we needed.
What kept it going really in the wake of Alien 3 was the comics. Around the time of Alien 3, there was Genocide, Colonial Marines, Rogue, Salvation, Sacrifice, and Labyrinth. On top of that there was the Perry(s) novel trilogy.
The only things Alien 3 killed were Ripley and the feel good vibe/insta family from Aliens.
I've long said the xeno's are space cancer. In Aliens, that cancer went into remission. There was some false hope of survival. Alien 3 saw that cancer return and for Ripley it was terminal. You don't truly escape them. Any extra time you get is hard earned and fleeting.
In my opinion Alien3 didn't kill the franchise but was essentially the first wound and a bleeder at that, meaning it was the first of its installments to lose more fans from the franchise than it gained. The scales were tipped.
Quote from: Elmazalman on Aug 29, 2019, 10:28:03 PM
ALIEN & ALIENS was more than enough. Ripley got the happy ending she deserved. It should have been left at that.
I have to agree with Elmazalman even though there are things I like about Alien3. After seeing how it and its subsequent Resurrection sequel has played out, as with Terminator, leaving it to the first two films was more than enough... at least for Ripley's journey.
She never should've survived, and she didn't.
Quote from: Huggs on Sep 02, 2019, 06:25:51 PM
She never should've survived, and she didn't.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CircularPastHoneybee-size_restricted.gif)
Quote from: Huggs on Sep 02, 2019, 06:25:51 PM
She never should've survived, and she didn't.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/26BRrSvJUa0crqw4E/giphy.gif)
I don't think it killed it but it definately divided the fanbase.
I personally don't have a super issue with it and rate it about the same as the 2nd movie, but I know it rubbed fans the wrong way because there is all kinds of proof of peoples thoughts on the subject written at the time of its release in the back of the DH Aliens comics single issue editorials. At the time almost ALL of them were negative.
I even remember DH having a little comic guide telling about every comic released up to that point (I wonder how much that thing is worth now? I can't even remember how I got it) and it doesn't take sides on what is a good or bad comic but it does randomly leave a line about how fans wanted to see Hicks and Newt alive at random.
I've got that guide too. It was attached to the front of SciFiNow magazine around the time of Resurrection's release.
That seems right actually. Even though I don't have the magazine anymore.
Think I have it stashed with some other Res-era mags somewhere.
It's most likely a *really* unpopular opinion, but i think if one of the movies really killed the Alien franchise, it would be Aliens. It's a great action movie, no doubt about it. But it destroyed the mystery of the Alien and was responsible for a formulaic approach in making the stuff after it (Movies, Comics and Novels).
The entire Alien universe began to shrink and even Ridley wasn't able to really bring back the sense of wonder, horror and mystery with his prequels that was there in the first Alien movie.
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I don't think it's unpopular so much as nonsensical.
Before Aliens there was no franchise. There was a handful of merch.
Quote from: SM on Sep 03, 2019, 09:14:24 AM
I don't think it's unpopular so much as nonsensical.
Before Aliens there was no franchise. There was a handful of merch.
Maybe. But the decline started with the decissions that were made for this movie imo.
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How did it shrink the universe and what formula was copied for films, novels and comics that followed? Some comics indeed had lots of Aliens and marines; but a great deal more did not.
Quote from: SM on Sep 03, 2019, 11:07:02 AM
How did it shrink the universe and what formula was copied for films, novels and comics that followed? Some comics indeed had lots of Aliens and marines; but a great deal more did not.
Making the Aliens into not much more than bugs and insects instead of hostile and intelligent incomprensible lovecraftian creatures and using them in masses for action scenes mixed with superficial horror.
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There's plenty of stories that delve into horror, and it's not like the first creature was overly intelligent. "Ignorant" was the word O'Bannon used. There's intelligence in the Aliens tactics in the second film.
Quote from: SM on Sep 03, 2019, 11:24:51 AM
There's plenty of stories that delve into horror, and it's not like the first creature was overly intelligent. "Ignorant" was the word O'Bannon used. There's intelligence in the Aliens tactics in the second film.
Maybe not in his deeds. But Big Chap always had an aura of a cunning and devious intelligence mixed with sadism and hostility that made the first movie really frightening.
Since Aliens they lost this somehow for me. I can see them just as relatively intelligent instinctdriven animals with a few special biological advantages, which don't exist on earth like molecular acid and their way of reproduction which is similar to but more advanced than the way some insects and wasps procreate.
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They always had insect elements.
I think there is a very good display of hostility in Aliens, even in comparison to Alien (Ferro, Burke, the swarm, Bishop bisection). Hostility is off the chart in Aliens.I think devious and cunning can be applied also. Cutting the power, alternate attack strategies, first encounter ambush, utilizing the suspended ceiling, stealth approach from water. They fit the definition of cunning.
Sadism, maybe not so much. In Alien, the sadism appears to be limited to the Lambert scene. I think I would have appreciated some of that in Aliens though. The Queen's attack on Bishop can be considered sadistic though. She displays her power, and takes time bringing Bishop up for the kill. It's just not as drawn out as whatever Hell Lambert went through.
Quote from: razeak on Sep 03, 2019, 12:56:41 PM
They always had insect elements.
I think there is a very good display of hostility in Aliens, even in comparison to Alien (Ferro, Burke, the swarm, Bishop bisection). Hostility is off the chart in Aliens.I think devious and cunning can be applied also. Cutting the power, alternate attack strategies, first encounter ambush, utilizing the suspended ceiling, stealth approach from water. They fit the definition of cunning.
Sadism, maybe not so much. In Alien, the sadism appears to be limited to the Lambert scene. I think I would have appreciated some of that in Aliens though. The Queen's attack on Bishop can be considered sadistic though. She displays her power, and takes time bringing Bishop up for the kill. It's just not as drawn out as whatever Hell Lambert went through.
Yeah, but everything they did appeared to be something caused by instinct and not because of reflection or planning. Beside maybe but i'm not sure, the queen attacking Bishop.
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Quote from: Doctor Ash on Sep 03, 2019, 08:17:45 AM
It's most likely a *really* unpopular opinion, but i think if one of the movies really killed the Alien franchise
I don't think your premise works because there was no franchise to kill before Aliens. Aliens made Alien a franchise. Alien was a brilliant film, yes, but much like Terminator 2: Judgment Day or The Road Warrior (Mad Max 2) it was Aliens that turned Alien into a worldwide phenomenon. It created the franchise, not destroyed it.
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Dec 20, 1974, 05:55:56 AMMaking the Aliens into not much more than bugs and insects instead of hostile and intelligent incomprensible lovecraftian creatures and using them in masses for action scenes mixed with superficial horror.
Yeah as mentioned here, the insect influences were baked into the Xenomorph already. Both Giger and Scott went on record to compare the Xeno to insects long before Aliens.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Sep 03, 2019, 03:29:47 PM
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Sep 03, 2019, 08:17:45 AM
It's most likely a *really* unpopular opinion, but i think if one of the movies really killed the Alien franchise
I don't think your premise works because there was no franchise to kill before Aliens. Aliens made Alien a franchise. Alien was a brilliant film, yes, but much like Terminator 2: Judgment Day or The Road Warrior (Mad Max 2) it was Aliens that turned Alien into a worldwide phenomenon. It created the franchise, not destroyed it.
You're right, it was very successful and one of the reasons the franchise grew to be as big as it was in its best times. But it also laid the seed of its downfall. There were so many different ways to follow up on Alien. Who knows what might have been, if another director with a different idea would have done a sequel instead of Cameron [emoji848]
Maybe we wouldn't even have a franchise now or it might have been different, bigger and more interesting than that what we have.
We'll never know...
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I think the studios decision to constantly include the Ripley character narrowed the scope. I like A3 lots, but it is definitely smaller scale than Aliens because of the way they wrapped up Ripley story.
Then in Res, 200 years later they STILL haven't found another source of aliens so they bring back wet hair Ripley to get some.
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Sep 03, 2019, 04:34:36 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Sep 03, 2019, 03:29:47 PM
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Sep 03, 2019, 08:17:45 AM
It's most likely a *really* unpopular opinion, but i think if one of the movies really killed the Alien franchise
I don't think your premise works because there was no franchise to kill before Aliens. Aliens made Alien a franchise. Alien was a brilliant film, yes, but much like Terminator 2: Judgment Day or The Road Warrior (Mad Max 2) it was Aliens that turned Alien into a worldwide phenomenon. It created the franchise, not destroyed it.
You're right, it was very successful and one of the reasons the franchise grew to be as big as it was in its best times. But it also laid the seed of its downfall. There were so many different ways to follow up on Alien. Who knows what might have been, if another director with a different idea would have done a sequel instead of Cameron [emoji848]
Maybe we wouldn't even have a franchise now or it might have been different, bigger and more interesting than that what we have.
We'll never know...
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I'm grateful it went the way it did. The first follow-up to ALIEN may have been another
JAWS 2 - an unworthy sequel that lacked the first film's quality.
I'm thankful the 'franchise' has two
genuine film classics.
Obviously not, judging by the franchise's recent output, but it took a long time to get something as good again with Isolation, Dead Orbit or The Cold Forge.
Quote from: Elmazalman on Sep 03, 2019, 10:00:47 PM
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Sep 03, 2019, 04:34:36 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Sep 03, 2019, 03:29:47 PM
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Sep 03, 2019, 08:17:45 AM
It's most likely a *really* unpopular opinion, but i think if one of the movies really killed the Alien franchise
I don't think your premise works because there was no franchise to kill before Aliens. Aliens made Alien a franchise. Alien was a brilliant film, yes, but much like Terminator 2: Judgment Day or The Road Warrior (Mad Max 2) it was Aliens that turned Alien into a worldwide phenomenon. It created the franchise, not destroyed it.
You're right, it was very successful and one of the reasons the franchise grew to be as big as it was in its best times. But it also laid the seed of its downfall. There were so many different ways to follow up on Alien. Who knows what might have been, if another director with a different idea would have done a sequel instead of Cameron [emoji848]
Maybe we wouldn't even have a franchise now or it might have been different, bigger and more interesting than that what we have.
We'll never know...
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I'm grateful it went the way it did. The first follow-up to ALIEN may have been another JAWS 2 - an unworthy sequel that lacked the first film's quality.
I'm thankful the 'franchise' has two genuine film classics.
I concur and I'm thankful too. We're lucky we didn't get a formula rehash repeat Jaws 2 or Halloween 2 but rather a one two punch of films that differ enough yet are so still complimentary to each other because the horror to action-horror progression is so organic. Yet they stand on their own as classics in their own right because of it. Alien and Aliens do not fight for the same spotlight because they differ enough to stand under two different spotlights. It's fantastic.
And it seems all I do is keep agreeing with Elmazalman lately. :)
I would argue that A3 definitely followed Alien more than Aliens. A more apt theory would be Alien laid the seed.
Big Chap displayed no more cunning than the horde in Aliens. He didn't cut the power. He chose an alternate route to his prey to avoid obstructions, the same as the Hadley's Hope xenos avoided the sentry guns after realizing they weren't defenseless. He did nothing different other than whatever it was he did to Lambert. He didn't even ambush Lambert and Parker. He just kind of walked in like he owned the place (true enough I guess).
I would speculate someone else making a sequel to Alien would have produced an lesser result and the franchise would probably be smaller than it is. Cameron was the eye of a perfect storm of elements that made such a great film.
QuoteHe didn't cut the power.
"I thought you fixed 12 module?"
QuoteHe didn't even ambush Lambert and Parker.
He did however place himself in a position where Parker couldn't shoot him without hitting Lambert.
Quote from: razeak on Sep 04, 2019, 02:10:11 AM
He did nothing different other than whatever it was he did to Lambert.
Come on we all imagined what happened.
Quote from: razeak on Sep 04, 2019, 02:10:11 AM
He didn't even ambush Lambert and Parker. He just kind of walked in like he owned the place (true enough I guess).
Now that you put it like that... Parker attacked first. Guess it was self defense after all. Sure from what they had learned the Alien would act violently towards them but it was just checking out Lambert before Parker jumped on it.
I couldn't really elaborate earlier because I was on lunch break with my phone, but I think Aliens did a pretty good job of opening up the Alien universe. The corporation only really hinted at in the first one is brought to the forefront of the second, you see more of the Alien hierarchy, you see more of the colonial life and government, you see multiple locations, technologies, and demographics of the population, future military technology etc.
Now all the EU that focused SOLELY on the same aspects over and over again can be blamed on being close minded for sure, but I feel that Aliens had a pretty big scope that was obviously laying the groundwork for something more grand and bigger scale before Alien 3 happened and went the way it did.
Which you could have still done something with, the series didn't need the Ripley character anymore, until they decided that the series needed the Ripley character and basically eliminated 200 years post Alien 3 to do anything in.
The EU HAS been much better lately, but I contain that stuff in its own continuity after Hicks and Newt became Wilks and Billie. If it happend once it can happen again.
Kind of like how WY won and has a xeno weapons program, only they went bankrupt in Alien Res and were bought out by wal mart. I always took it as the implication being that they wasted too much money trying to locate and exploit the alien and bankrupted themselves.
Anyways, side tangent.
Besides, Scott tried to reopen the universe with his two prequels and all their crazy shit, and we all saw how that went down.
Quote from: SM on Sep 04, 2019, 02:23:54 AM
QuoteHe didn't cut the power.
"I thought you fixed 12 module?"
QuoteHe didn't even ambush Lambert and Parker.
He did however place himself in a position where Parker couldn't shoot him without hitting Lambert.
Are you implying the Alien was the cause of the blackout in the C - Level corridor?
It's been implied since 1979.
I thought that was common knowledge?
Quote from: Kimarhi on Sep 04, 2019, 03:39:33 AM
It's been implied since 1979.
And how did Jones manage to get stuck in that locker?
I remember starting a thread about this back in the gamegossip days ;)
Quote from: SM on Sep 04, 2019, 04:12:43 AM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Sep 04, 2019, 03:39:33 AM
It's been implied since 1979.
And how did Jones manage to get stuck in that locker?
I always thought Ash did it, because I just can't see big chap letting him live.
Killing the lights is one thing. Knowing the specifics of a machine he's being tracked with before he sees it is another.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Sep 04, 2019, 04:13:49 AM
I remember starting a thread about this back in the gamegossip days ;)
I think I recall.
It was less convincing because the locker door swung to the side, at the time I remember thinking the locker doors opened from top to bottom.
I assumed the blackout in the C - Level corridor was the result of the rough landing (shorting out wiring, etc) and not something mysterious. Ripley did report to Dallas that repairs weren't completed, they were still blind on B and C decks ("Reserve power system is blown.").
Later, when queried by Ripley about repairs to 12 module, Brett replies: "We did ... I don't understand it." The stress to the ship, on leaving the planet, could have undone any repairs to 12 module.
Quote from: Elmazalman on Sep 03, 2019, 10:00:47 PM
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Sep 03, 2019, 04:34:36 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Sep 03, 2019, 03:29:47 PM
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Sep 03, 2019, 08:17:45 AM
It's most likely a *really* unpopular opinion, but i think if one of the movies really killed the Alien franchise
I don't think your premise works because there was no franchise to kill before Aliens. Aliens made Alien a franchise. Alien was a brilliant film, yes, but much like Terminator 2: Judgment Day or The Road Warrior (Mad Max 2) it was Aliens that turned Alien into a worldwide phenomenon. It created the franchise, not destroyed it.
You're right, it was very successful and one of the reasons the franchise grew to be as big as it was in its best times. But it also laid the seed of its downfall. There were so many different ways to follow up on Alien. Who knows what might have been, if another director with a different idea would have done a sequel instead of Cameron [emoji848]
Maybe we wouldn't even have a franchise now or it might have been different, bigger and more interesting than that what we have.
We'll never know...
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I'm grateful it went the way it did. The first follow-up to ALIEN may have been another JAWS 2 - an unworthy sequel that lacked the first film's quality.
I'm thankful the 'franchise' has two genuine film classics.
Or if Ridley did the second one and rehired Giger to work with him again, he would have already brought the Space Jockeys (not as humanoids) back and used them in a more satisfying way than in Prometheus and Covenant.
Or perhaps he or someone else introduced some of the elements Dan O'Bannon came up with like the Aliens having a culture, which they join up with after they have matured enough.
This are only two possibilities, and there a lot of ways the franchise could have become great, without Aliens. Maybe not as big but perhaps still relevant.
But on the other side a Jaws 2 like sequel could also have happened and killed the Franchise before it was really born. Or everything after would have been B-Movies...
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Quote from: Elmazalman on Sep 04, 2019, 06:46:00 AM
I assumed the blackout in the C - Level corridor was the result of the rough landing (shorting out wiring, etc) and not something mysterious. Ripley did report to Dallas that repairs weren't completed, they were still blind on B and C decks ("Reserve power system is blown.").
Later, when queried by Ripley about repairs to 12 module, Brett replies: "We did ... I don't understand it." The stress to the ship, on leaving the planet, could have undone any repairs to 12 module.
It's always been implied. Kind of like whether the Aliens intentionally cut the power, or just disrupted the power trying to get to the Marines.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Sep 04, 2019, 11:03:26 AM
Quote from: Elmazalman on Sep 04, 2019, 06:46:00 AM
I assumed the blackout in the C - Level corridor was the result of the rough landing (shorting out wiring, etc) and not something mysterious. Ripley did report to Dallas that repairs weren't completed, they were still blind on B and C decks ("Reserve power system is blown.").
Later, when queried by Ripley about repairs to 12 module, Brett replies: "We did ... I don't understand it." The stress to the ship, on leaving the planet, could have undone any repairs to 12 module.
It's always been implied. Kind of like whether the Aliens intentionally cut the power, or just disrupted the power trying to get to the Marines.
Good thing xenos don't like practical jokes. Otherwise there would be lots of
kick me signs and exploding toilets too.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Sep 04, 2019, 03:02:29 PM
Good thing xenos don't like practical jokes. Otherwise there would be lots of kick me signs and exploding toilets too.
Or they did and Hudson was blamed.
Quote from: SM on Sep 04, 2019, 02:23:54 AM
QuoteHe didn't cut the power.
"I thought you fixed 12 module?"
QuoteHe didn't even ambush Lambert and Parker.
He did however place himself in a position where Parker couldn't shoot him without hitting Lambert.
I always assumed it was other damage. I never connected the two. That would be pretty cool.
It could very well be completely unconnected to the Alien - but the Alien restricts its attacks to darkened places. Same as the Aliens cutting the power. As if they know they have an advantage in the dark.
Quote from: Huggs on Sep 02, 2019, 06:05:21 PM
I've long said the xeno's are space cancer. In Aliens, that cancer went into remission. There was some false hope of survival. Alien 3 saw that cancer return and for Ripley it was terminal. You don't truly escape them. Any extra time you get is hard earned and fleeting.
Oh yeah baby say my name.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Sep 04, 2019, 04:13:49 AM
I remember starting a thread about this back in the gamegossip days ;)
CASTE VS COWL ULTIMATE DEBATE THREAD
DNA REFLEX THREAD 3.0
Caste vs cowl. One of the best ever threads. :laugh:
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Sep 04, 2019, 08:33:00 PM
Quote from: Huggs on Sep 02, 2019, 06:05:21 PM
I've long said the xeno's are space cancer. In Aliens, that cancer went into remission. There was some false hope of survival. Alien 3 saw that cancer return and for Ripley it was terminal. You don't truly escape them. Any extra time you get is hard earned and fleeting.
Oh yeah baby say my name.
"Michelle, Michelle!"
Quote from: Huggs on Sep 04, 2019, 11:45:46 PM
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Sep 04, 2019, 08:33:00 PM
Quote from: Huggs on Sep 02, 2019, 06:05:21 PM
I've long said the xeno's are space cancer. In Aliens, that cancer went into remission. There was some false hope of survival. Alien 3 saw that cancer return and for Ripley it was terminal. You don't truly escape them. Any extra time you get is hard earned and fleeting.
Oh yeah baby say my name.
"Michelle, Michelle!"
"Wierzbowski! WIERZBOWSKI!Oh, wait, wrong thread.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 14, 2013, 10:13:01 PM
The first few times I saw Aliens, I thought Hicks was saying "Where's Bowksi?! Where's Bowski?!"
Cool story bro?
Where's the brewskis?! Where's the brewskis?!
Quote from: Kimarhi on Sep 04, 2019, 10:59:05 PM
Caste vs cowl. One of the best ever threads. :laugh:
Looking at things today it seems like cowl won, mostly.
I was caste all the way baby.
I wonder if Mrph and Daemos ever made up?
What thread was this? Is there a link?
You might be able to find it using wayback machine but gamegossip has died at least three times now so probably not.
At GG the rules were different so you couldn't use director/writer commentary (out of universe information) to explain something in universe. So the differences between the first Alien with the cowl over its head and the second movies Aliens (which didn't have them) would have huge nerdy ass debates that always fell apart in flaming sessions that were hilarious.
Cowl was the Aliens reached a certain age and the smooth dome fell off, caste was the aliens in the second movie (despite being called warriors by Cameron) were actually a different caste than the original and served in a worker capacity.
The reason we banned out of universe info for explanations in universe was because directors/writers/actors changed their thoughts on a whim sometimes completely 180ing on certain ideas.
We shouldn't have cared so much but it led to many interesting takes and threads on the movies.
Caste heads tried to ban director commentary because it instantly torpedoed their argument.
I would have taken the point of neither caste nor cowl in this discussion, because even the chestburster and the eggs looked the different in both movies.
So i would have gone for a different subspecies...
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Quote from: SM on Sep 05, 2019, 09:32:26 AM
Caste heads tried to ban director commentary because it instantly torpedoed their argument.
Or because Ridley would change his opinion on subjects every five years. Which of those opinions is valid? The original discussed when making the movie or the latest?
That wasn't a thing back then.
Did Ridley ever opine about the cowl? I thought that was Cameron. ???
I don't think Ridley cared about the cowl but he has had plenty of 180s in his career concerning the franchise.
It was the lice. That's what killed A3...
Quote from: Kimarhi on Sep 05, 2019, 10:56:00 PM
I don't think Ripley cared about the cowl but he has had plenty of 180s in his career concerning the franchise.
And I doubt he is done doing that.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Sep 06, 2019, 02:54:42 AM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Sep 05, 2019, 10:56:00 PM
I don't think Ripley cared about the cowl but he has had plenty of 180s in his career concerning the franchise.
And I doubt he is done doing that.
"The beast is f***ing cooked. I mean it's absolutely still viable, and people love it. It's just cooked so hard that I believe it's great. That poor old useless thing. It's just done. How can you make a movie about that anymore? You need something new, and that's what we're doing. We wanted to take things in a different direction. So we're doing an Alien movie. We've just got the script finished, and I think people are really going to like it".
Genuinely laughing, you completely nailed it.
I'm not a fan of A3 but I respect it as a sequel to Aliens. For me A3 never killed off the Alien franchise but defo put a spanner in the works for Ripley's story especially if you watched A3 back in the day. However one of the reasons I love Alien Isolation is cos Ripley if I remember correctly is MIA and Amanda don't know her fate only that Ripley escape the Nostromo. Would love to see Alien Isolation 2 were Amanda eventually discovers her mother's fate on Fury. Would make it even more tragic.
Amanda died two years before her mother.
Quote from: SM on Sep 13, 2019, 12:43:49 AM
Amanda died two years before her mother.
Lol Holy f**k I forgot about the timeline had too many cans tonight. Ya she was drifting for over 50 years. I'm just gunna pretend Burk was talking crap and an old Amanda finds out Ripley's fate.
It certainly killed the franchise for me and I know that's an unpopular opinion here. Last time I said that, someone said that I have poor taste for disliking any of the first THREE movies. But I love Alien and Aliens, they're my all time favorite movies, and I think Alien3 made AlienS pointless. Every time I watch the beginning, I say "Ripley went through all that for nothing?!" and I don't watch it much. So yeah, Alien and Aliens are flawless in my opinion, and ever since that, the series has gone downhill. I hate Alien3 like poison and I don't watch it, own it, or want it, in fact I wish they made a Double Pack with lots of special features, but you can't get all the good special features without 3 and 4 included. Alien Resurrection was crap, but I think it had "some" okay ideas, not a lot, but I would rather watch Resurrection than 3. I had fun with AVP, but it is heavily flawed and I can see why people hate it. AVPR was poorly done and the characters were very flat, the only good part was the Wolf Predator. I like Prometheus, but has some flaws, and I wish Scott made it a direct prequel to Alien and still make a franchise out of it, but David was the best part. I like Covenant, but again, has some flaws, mostly because Scott was trying to rectify the backlash he had with Prometheus not having Aliens, and again, David was the best part. The problem with the prequels was Scott wanted to focus on the Space Jockeys, and when that tanked he focused on Aliens, I just wish he met somewhere in the middle, and wish he just led it into Alien, tied up loose ends, and still have the story continue from there.
But back to my point, yes, I think Alien3 killed the franchise and it went nowhere but downhill from there. And I'm sure a lot of you will tell me I have bad taste or I'm the only one who thinks that or some shit like that, like every time I talk down about Alien3 on this site. So I'm just gonna ignore this topic so you can call me a freak or say no one agrees with me and I won't see it. So go ahead.
Everyone has their own opinions. Like what you like broheim.
Quote from: Number13 on Sep 13, 2019, 03:16:57 AM
It certainly killed the franchise for me and I know that's an unpopular opinion here. Last time I said that, someone said that I have poor taste for disliking any of the first THREE movies. But I love Alien and Aliens, they're my all time favorite movies, and I think Alien3 made AlienS pointless. Every time I watch the beginning, I say "Ripley went through all that for nothing?!" and I don't watch it much. So yeah, Alien and Aliens are flawless in my opinion, and ever since that, the series has gone downhill. I hate Alien3 like poison and I don't watch it, own it, or want it, in fact I wish they made a Double Pack with lots of special features, but you can't get all the good special features without 3 and 4 included. Alien Resurrection was crap, but I think it had "some" okay ideas, not a lot, but I would rather watch Resurrection than 3. I had fun with AVP, but it is heavily flawed and I can see why people hate it. AVPR was poorly done and the characters were very flat, the only good part was the Wolf Predator. I like Prometheus, but has some flaws, and I wish Scott made it a direct prequel to Alien and still make a franchise out of it, but David was the best part. I like Covenant, but again, has some flaws, mostly because Scott was trying to rectify the backlash he had with Prometheus not having Aliens, and again, David was the best part. The problem with the prequels was Scott wanted to focus on the Space Jockeys, and when that tanked he focused on Aliens, I just wish he met somewhere in the middle, and wish he just led it into Alien, tied up loose ends, and still have the story continue from there.
But back to my point, yes, I think Alien3 killed the franchise and it went nowhere but downhill from there. And I'm sure a lot of you will tell me I have bad taste or I'm the only one who thinks that or some shit like that, like every time I talk down about Alien3 on this site. So I'm just gonna ignore this topic so you can call me a freak or say no one agrees with me and I won't see it. So go ahead.
Not that you'll see this, but a lot of people have issues with Alien 3 to varying degrees, so you're hardly alone. There's no need to get a victim complex about it.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Sep 13, 2019, 03:19:06 AM
Everyone has their own opinions. Like what you like broheim.
Indeed. All three films in the trilogy have endings that allow them all to stand on their own.
Ah, but Alien 3: AC. That dark and gothic masterwork. I do love it so. ;D
Alien 3 while certainly flawed is great in my book. Grungy, gothic and nihilistic but with a beautiful arc for Ripley. It's a satisfying close to the Ripley canon. The real Ripley. :D
If anything hurt this franchise it was Fox. Now that Disney has it hopefully they don't screw it up and can instead right it again.
Fox hurt it by continuing to spend money making movies...?
Quote from: Huggs on Sep 13, 2019, 04:01:08 AM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Sep 13, 2019, 03:19:06 AM
Everyone has their own opinions. Like what you like broheim.
Indeed. All three films in the trilogy have endings that allow them all to stand on their own.
Ah, but Alien 3: AC. That dark and gothic masterwork. I do love it so. ;D
YEAH !!!!!
Quote from: SM on Oct 03, 2019, 04:23:10 AM
Fox hurt it by continuing to spend money making movies...?
I think it's fair to say they continued to make the films, but diminishing quality still damages the franchises marketability.
They continued to spend money making movies that would give them enough profit to justify the investment, not caring in regards to their quality.
Alien = Coca Cola
Aliens = Pepsi
Alien 3: TC = Diet Coke
Alien 3: AC = Sprite
Alien: Resurrection = Orange Faygo
Prometheus = Diet Water
Alien: Covenant = Urine Sample
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 04, 2019, 02:21:52 AM
Alien = Coca Cola
Aliens = Pepsi
Alien 3: TC = Diet Coke
Alien 3: AC = Sprite
Alien: Resurrection = Orange Faygo
Prometheus = Diet Water
Alien: Covenant = Urine Sample
I better not ask what the diarrhea is :laugh:
Edit: BTW! Sprite is your favorite soft drink?
I actually don't drink soft drinks but 2 or 3 times a year.
I prefer sprite, but it's mere coincidence that I chose it for Alien 3 though.
It isn't the same as coke, but it's equally good.
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 04, 2019, 02:21:52 AM
Alien = Coca Cola
Aliens = Pepsi
Alien 3: TC = Diet Coke
Alien 3: AC = Sprite
Alien: Resurrection = Orange Faygo
Prometheus = Diet Water
Alien: Covenant = Urine Sample
Diet Water??? What the hell is Diet Water??? Half the sugar of regular water?
:laugh:
Is he implying Prometheus is a scam? :P
I can't tell if Huggs is saying Prometheus is good or bad.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 04, 2019, 02:19:24 PM
Diet Water??? What the hell is Diet Water??? Half the sugar of regular water?
:laugh:
They took something that was already good for you, and drained all the goodness out of it.
It's neither here nor there. It looks legit, but it's just a bottle full of lies and empty promises.
Prometheus
AKA:
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.wp.com%2Fwww.teamjimmyjoe.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FDiet-Water.jpg&hash=fd3faf888cfc3e85ea75e993588ebd66f3581a42)
Oh I get how that feels like.
One could also look at it this way
Spoiler
Alien: = Don Vito
Aliens: = Sonny
Alien 3: TC = Tom Hagen
Alien 3: AC = Michael
Alien: Resurrection = Johnny Fontane
Prometheus: = Tessio
Alien Covenant: = Fredo
or
Spoiler
Of Aliens and Directors
"Tell me about the bunnies Ridley"
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 04, 2019, 03:42:27 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 04, 2019, 02:19:24 PM
Diet Water??? What the hell is Diet Water??? Half the sugar of regular water?
:laugh:
They took something that was already good for you, and drained all the goodness out of it.
It's neither here nor there. It looks legit, but it's just a bottle full of lies and empty promises.
Prometheus
AKA:
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.wp.com%2Fwww.teamjimmyjoe.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FDiet-Water.jpg&hash=fd3faf888cfc3e85ea75e993588ebd66f3581a42)
Huh...
(https://media.giphy.com/media/5bu6hs0XqLOYsZnvyY/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 04, 2019, 03:42:27 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 04, 2019, 02:19:24 PM
Diet Water??? What the hell is Diet Water??? Half the sugar of regular water?
:laugh:
They took something that was already good for you, and drained all the goodness out of it.
It's neither here nor there. It looks legit, but it's just a bottle full of lies and empty promises.
Prometheus
AKA:
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.wp.com%2Fwww.teamjimmyjoe.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FDiet-Water.jpg&hash=fd3faf888cfc3e85ea75e993588ebd66f3581a42)
Best review ever!
(https://i.imgur.com/VEr9yKt.gif)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 04, 2019, 02:19:24 PM
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 04, 2019, 02:21:52 AM
Alien = Coca Cola
Aliens = Pepsi
Alien 3: TC = Diet Coke
Alien 3: AC = Sprite
Alien: Resurrection = Orange Faygo
Prometheus = Diet Water
Alien: Covenant = Urine Sample
Diet Water??? What the hell is Diet Water??? Half the sugar of regular water?
:laugh:
Insert Roddy Piper They Live Glasses meme
Alien Covenant > Half of the franchise, not including Alien, Aliens or Alien³ though of course.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 06, 2019, 12:54:05 PM
Alien Covenant > Half of the franchise, not including Alien, Aliens or Alien³ though of course.
True. Although, I personally like Covenant probably better than Alien 3, or at least on par with it. I feel both movies are actually quite similar in certain ways, and both films were pretty bold in the direction they took. I consider both to be flawed masterpieces. Covenant has also given me more to think about and chew on since longer than I can remember in this spiralling franchise.
Yeah I think I'd put Covenant ahead of Alien 3 too.
Neither are masterpieces, flawed or otherwise.
Nutters.
Quote from: PsyKore on Oct 08, 2019, 06:56:43 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 06, 2019, 12:54:05 PM
Alien Covenant > Half of the franchise, not including Alien, Aliens or Alien³ though of course.
True. Although, I personally like Covenant probably better than Alien 3, or at least on par with it. I feel both movies are actually quite similar in certain ways, and both films were pretty bold in the direction they took. I consider both to be flawed masterpieces. Covenant has also given me more to think about and chew on since longer than I can remember in this spiralling franchise.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of the phrase "flawed masterpieces" when referring to film. Most every film, masterpieces or not, have flaws. Especially FX films. At that rate Alien 1979 can be called a flawed masterpiece with a few of its man-in-a-rubber-suit issues, Ash head issues, continuity mistakes, etc... but Alien is just called a masterpiece and I think rightly so.
To me the need to include the word flawed with the word masterpiece, just so one doesn't mistake another as classifying an inferior film on a masterpiece level, means the movie is just not a masterpiece at all.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Oct 08, 2019, 06:50:01 PM
Nutters.
Both prequels are decent (but not great) films, regardless of how much you as a fan approve of the direction they go in. A3 is so butchered that how great it possibly could have been isn't important. I give all these movies the same rating of around 6.5 to 7 out of 10 - they all have major issues but are still a good time - and I could well be being pretty generous towards A3 there.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Oct 08, 2019, 06:50:01 PM
Nutters.
Where can I read your unfiltered opinion of the prequels?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 08, 2019, 10:02:19 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Oct 08, 2019, 06:50:01 PM
Nutters.
Where can I read your unfiltered opinion of the prequels?
I found it:
Quote from: Kimarhi
Spoiler
People who like the prequels are Nutters.
Quote from: PsyKore on Oct 08, 2019, 06:56:43 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 06, 2019, 12:54:05 PM
Alien Covenant > Half of the franchise, not including Alien, Aliens or Alien³ though of course.
True. Although, I personally like Covenant probably better than Alien 3, or at least on par with it. I feel both movies are actually quite similar in certain ways, and both films were pretty bold in the direction they took. I consider both to be flawed masterpieces. Covenant has also given me more to think about and chew on since longer than I can remember in this spiralling franchise.
Very, very true.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 08, 2019, 07:44:03 PM
Quote from: PsyKore on Oct 08, 2019, 06:56:43 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 06, 2019, 12:54:05 PM
Alien Covenant > Half of the franchise, not including Alien, Aliens or Alien³ though of course.
True. Although, I personally like Covenant probably better than Alien 3, or at least on par with it. I feel both movies are actually quite similar in certain ways, and both films were pretty bold in the direction they took. I consider both to be flawed masterpieces. Covenant has also given me more to think about and chew on since longer than I can remember in this spiralling franchise.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of the phrase "flawed masterpieces" when referring to film. Most every film, masterpieces or not, have flaws. Especially FX films. At that rate Alien 1979 can be called a flawed masterpiece with a few of its man-in-a-rubber-suit issues, Ash head issues, continuity mistakes, etc... but Alien is just called a masterpiece and I think rightly so.
To me the need to include the word flawed with the word masterpiece, just so one doesn't mistake another as classifying an inferior film on a masterpiece level, means the movie is just not a masterpiece at all.
It's only my personal opinion. I'm not using "masterpiece" in the most literal definition; I'm only using it to express how highly I consider these films within this series. And when I say flawed, it's obviously because there's things that could be better.
Quote from: PsyKore on Oct 08, 2019, 11:27:51 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 08, 2019, 07:44:03 PM
Quote from: PsyKore on Oct 08, 2019, 06:56:43 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 06, 2019, 12:54:05 PM
Alien Covenant > Half of the franchise, not including Alien, Aliens or Alien³ though of course.
True. Although, I personally like Covenant probably better than Alien 3, or at least on par with it. I feel both movies are actually quite similar in certain ways, and both films were pretty bold in the direction they took. I consider both to be flawed masterpieces. Covenant has also given me more to think about and chew on since longer than I can remember in this spiralling franchise.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of the phrase "flawed masterpieces" when referring to film. Most every film, masterpieces or not, have flaws. Especially FX films. At that rate Alien 1979 can be called a flawed masterpiece with a few of its man-in-a-rubber-suit issues, Ash head issues, continuity mistakes, etc... but Alien is just called a masterpiece and I think rightly so.
To me the need to include the word flawed with the word masterpiece, just so one doesn't mistake another as classifying an inferior film on a masterpiece level, means the movie is just not a masterpiece at all.
It's only my personal opinion. I'm not using "masterpiece" in the most literal definition; I'm only using it to express how highly I consider these films within this series. And when I say flawed, it's obviously because there's things that could be better.
I got ya. I'm just expressing a personal pet peeve of mine, not at you, just in general. :) I have a hang up with the word masterpiece being used so liberally these days that I can't just shake. ;D
Same thing with perfect scores. I'll read reviewers say
The beginning act of a film was sluggish, the acting and pacing could have been better, but otherwise it was a great movie. 5 Stars out of 5. And I'm like... what? Not even a 4.5? That makes no sense!
Hey Kimmy ain't PsyKore one of those oldskool GameGossip peeps too?
I go back a long way in the community, but I was never really into gamegossip much. I did post there but it was more in the modding/gaming scene.
Killed? No. Just broke the legs and left in the desert without water. ;D
Alien³ is a 8/10 hiding in a 6/10. Frustratingly.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 08, 2019, 10:02:19 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Oct 08, 2019, 06:50:01 PM
Nutters.
Where can I read your unfiltered opinion of the prequels?
I don't mind Covenant half as much as Prometheus. I hate that a superior Alien film came from the dumpster fire that was Prometheus because now I have to acknowledge it's presence.
I've always liked Alien 3 more than the prequels. But the AC is superior to either by a wide margin.
Of course this is my opinion. Which is the correct one.
Haha, yes. The correct one.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Oct 11, 2019, 07:03:01 PM
I've always liked Alien 3 more than the prequels. But the AC is superior to either by a wide margin.
:o
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 11, 2019, 11:09:11 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Oct 11, 2019, 07:03:01 PM
I've always liked Alien 3 more than the prequels. But the AC is superior to either by a wide margin.
:o
The truth is that shocking?
The SMorph might see it!
It sees everything.
That is the Assembly Cut............realize that could've been taken as Covenant.
Oh they know. Even though we are used to call it the best cut around here.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 11, 2019, 11:54:47 PM
The SMorph might see it!
I have survived the fires of SM disagreement for close to two decades now.
Is the feeling that any cut of Alien3 is better than the prequels really controversial?
Alien 3 TC < Prometheus < Alien 3 AC = Alien Covenant
IMO
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 12, 2019, 03:19:01 PM
Is the feeling that any cut of Alien3 is better than the prequels really controversial?
Not really controversial here, but in the public eye it's still remembered as the first bad one and the beginning of the end.
Quote from: The Kurgan on Oct 12, 2019, 03:23:31 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 12, 2019, 03:19:01 PM
Is the feeling that any cut of Alien3 is better than the prequels really controversial?
Not really controversial here, but in the public eye it's still remembered as the first bad one and the beginning of the end.
Yep, I can't argue with that. I was just trying to grapple with the current conversation. :)
No it didn't kill it, in fact it's grown on me over the years and I actually consider it the last "true" Alien film. It was certainly a big step down from Alien and Aliens though. Resurrection, AvP Requiem, and the prequels did way more to "kill" the franchise if anything.
Would say Alien 3 was the height of the alien series popularity, the hype and media coverage for it was massive and could see the Alien 3 logo in most comics and posters before the release and tv commercials, then comics and games to almost all systems, way more games than any other alien game before or since.
And then it was released.
Quote from: The Kurgan on Oct 12, 2019, 03:23:31 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 12, 2019, 03:19:01 PM
Is the feeling that any cut of Alien3 is better than the prequels really controversial?
Not really controversial here, but in the public eye it's still remembered as the first bad one and the beginning of the end.
Yup. In the eyes of the public, it was the beginning of the end.
The public is... questionable to say the least, most of all it's reactionary, and therefore untrustworthy.
It does kill it but in a satisfying way. The `Ripley-Saga´ ends with a tear dropping .. Regarding not the Alien as a antagonist but The Company.
I hate the idea that every unique character or creature must be franchised to its death. Why is there no `5th Element´, `Totall Recall´ or `Event Horizon´ (despite the rumored show) franchise? Because they are stand-alone movies in their matter. Fan fiction in comics, games and novels are good ways to theorize and expand the worlds with everyones imagination.
Every new installment in a franchise demystifies previous events (sadly in `Terminator´ as well as the New Alien-Trilogy). I consider myself as a fan of the classic trilogy. Unhappy to say it´s becoming like `Star Wars´ .. it depends on a generation.
There's no Event Horizon franchise because it tanked something chronic.
Quote from: SM on Oct 19, 2019, 08:55:20 PM
There's no Event Horizon franchise because it tanked something chronic.
Which is a damn shame because it's awesome.
Makes me laugh when people ask if Alien 3 "killed" the franchise.
We got another film five years later.
And another five films since.
Quote from: Allan Yelpir on Oct 19, 2019, 01:35:52 PM
Why is there no ... `Totall Recall´ ... franchise?
There was a TV show, actually.
I never heard of it.
No liked them to like 85%, but.
Bah, humbug.
Quote from: SM on Oct 24, 2019, 10:43:11 AM
No liked them to like 85%, but.
... ow, what?
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 24, 2019, 10:42:35 AM
I never heard of it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Recall_2070
It's pretty good. Way more Blade Runner than Total Recall.
Quote from: Allan Yelpir on Oct 19, 2019, 01:35:52 PM
Why is there no ... `Totall Recall´ ... franchise?
The fact it was adapted from a singular book by Dick probably has at least something to do with that.
Still,
Minority Report was originally going to be
Total Recall 2.
Alien 3 has been my entry to the series when it hit the VHS shelves and remains my favorite Alien movie to this day. While many may have disagree with decisions made for the plot, I think the feel, look and vibe of the movie is almost unmatched. I think, to me, only Exorcist III and Angel Dark come remotely close to that eerie, terrifying feel.
And I dont think it killed the franchise since as many pointed out, it kept going strong. I think the mythology was still very strong and relevant up untill Prometheus. After that it dived down and there wasnt enough of an audience for Covenant
3 never impacted me the same way as it did others who waited the six years for it to come out.
Because when Aliens was released I was 1 and when Alien 3 was released I was 7. So I had to wait another three or so years to watch any of the series, and when I did it was without that wait that people who watched Aliens in theaters had to endure.
So I started with the 2nd movie, immediately took it back to Kroger and got Alien 3............but this was the era of vhs rentals......and they didn't have Alien because somebody rented it and moved away (essentially stealing it). So I think I had to wait another half year after watching those two for somebody to buy the original for my birthday.
I remember being disappointed that Hicks and Newt were killed in such an offhand manner, BUT, I recall that it also felt very real world esque, where people die at random all the time. I'm sure people driving home at night killed by a drunk driver's family feel that they didn't get a just death either. And I didn't have the half decade of love built up for the characters that many others had.
I can certainly understand their anger at the issue, and don't blame anybody for feeling that way. Just as I understand the real world feel of Hicks and Newts deaths not being good enough in fiction which isn't always written to be real world (and in reality I know its just lazy writing to get rid of two characters that have no place in the story).
That said, Alien 3 has grown into an 8/10 movie for me.......just like Aliens has fallen to an 8/10. Ultimately I think I give Aliens the nod over 3 just because it was a more influential world builder, but that is essentially the only reason. Alien remains the series apex for me.
As always the correct opinion eventually emerges.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 27, 2019, 07:54:53 PM
As always the correct opinion eventually emerges.
"correct opinion"
(https://media.giphy.com/media/agwRgmVDJceZO/giphy.gif)
I know, I'm great ain't I? Lmfao
:D
I thought you might get a kick out of that.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 27, 2019, 07:54:53 PM
As always the correct opinion eventually emerges.
Your unending wit, enthusiasm, and sound logic concerning Alien 3 has certainly pushed me further in appreciation of the film. Haha.
I'm watching it right now.
Good times.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 27, 2019, 08:38:08 PM
I know, I'm great ain't I? Lmfao
Yeah, so great it even gets annoying sometimes.
Spoiler
:D
No, never!
No, it capped off an amazing trilogy.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 28, 2019, 09:58:46 PM
No, never!
Oh, I'm sure my budies will agree with me. Yeah, budies ?
Spoiler
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/xTiTns0m1Kd4HR8P8k/source.gif)
Not really, I don't think any one film can kill a franchise like Alien. It is fair to say it is unappealing to most because of the death of Hicks and Newt.
You're correct in that that's why a lot of people (especially casual viewers/non-super-fans) dislike it.
The film itself is correct in that life is nasty and arbitrary and generally unpleasant.
While I do have some love for Alien 3, I think its safe to say that it did damage the franchise's reputation. It also marked the beginning of Fox's self sabotage in their handling of the Alien films.
20th Century Fox's management of the franchise has got questionable at times, but honestly- I don't think you can fault them much for the first four films, yes you read that right. The City of Lost Children Director is a good call that didn't work out. The treatment of the first three Directors is mostly identical, the fourth basically got complete control. And so did Ridley Scott with the Prequel (s) as far as we know. Of course this is a simplification though.
Quote from: TheAlienKing66 on Oct 30, 2019, 07:00:59 AM
While I do have some love for Alien 3, I think its safe to say that it did damage the franchise's reputation. It also marked the beginning of Fox's self sabotage in their handling of the Alien films.
True. If they'd let Fincher have the sort of freedom that Cameron did, it might've turned out better. However by the time he was on board they'd spent way too much without shooting anything and too much on the line for Landau and Swerdlow to let him have that freedom.
On Resurrection it was a lot smoother - but they were still constantly taking money off the production forcing them to cut stuff.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 30, 2019, 07:30:24 PM
20th Century Fox's management of the franchise has got questionable at times, but honestly- I don't think you can fault them much for the first four films, yes you read that right. The City of Lost Children Director is a good call that didn't work out. The treatment of the first three Directors is mostly identical, the fourth basically got complete control. And so did Ridley Scott with the Prequel (s) as far as we know. Of course this is a simplification though.
Hiring Joss Whedon to write the script was a mistake. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Whedon, but his style of quick quips in every dialogue exchange has no place in an Alien movie.
Some gags worked, some didn't. It could've been a lot worse.
"Who were you expecting, Santa Claus?!"
I really don't think Resurrection's lack of funding is it's major issue, as correctly pointed out it's the writing.
They should have restored Distephano's "eat my f**k" along with the Wren's Walmart line for the SE to really showcase the writing that went into it.
"We're f**ked in our pink bottoms" can never be topped.
So to speak.
In Rez's defence.
"Drink Elgyn?"
"Constantly."
Great f**king line.
The "I died" bit always makes me smile too.
Resurrection gets at least 1 star from me, just for Mike Wincott.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Oct 30, 2019, 10:25:54 PM
The "I died" bit always makes me smile too.
Couple of my faves are:
"Does that compute? Or do I have to draw you a schematic?"
"Hey, I'm not the mechanic, ironsides! I mostly just hurt people."
Even the latter line was improved from Whedon's clunky "I mostly just hurt guys".
At the other end of the spectrum...
RIPLEY - Get away from me.
JOHNER - Why should I?
RIPLEY - Because pain hurts.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Oct 30, 2019, 10:25:54 PM
The "I died" bit always makes me smile too.
That's probably my favorite bit of humor in the film. I think it works when it's being dry like that.
Quote from: SM on Oct 30, 2019, 10:32:33 PM"Hey, I'm not the mechanic, ironsides! I mostly just hurt people."
I'd forgotten about Johner calling Vriess Ironsides. Yeah, that one gets me too :)
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Oct 30, 2019, 10:25:54 PM
The "I died" bit always makes me smile too.
It's a quality gag, and one of the few that fits well with previous entries in the series.
However, I still maintain that it's a good-but-not-great movie - without any caveats or conditions like so many apply to it. None of this "good sci-fi, bad Alien" stuff.
However, basically everything sucks compared to Alien and Aliens, so that's a dishonest metric. As an admittedly unnecessary and gimmicky continuation of the Ripley story, it manages to be both an exploration of the weirder aspects of the franchise and an absolutely gorgeous funhouse ride.
And I'll defend it to the bitter end as a decent, strange, nightmarish Alien flick.
As flawed as it is, I'd take A3 over Resurrection any day.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Oct 31, 2019, 10:03:34 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Oct 30, 2019, 10:25:54 PM
The "I died" bit always makes me smile too.
It's a quality gag, and one of the few that fits well with previous entries in the series.
However, I still maintain that it's a good-but-not-great movie - without any caveats or conditions like so many apply to it. None of this "good sci-fi, bad Alien" stuff.
However, basically everything sucks compared to Alien and Aliens, so that's a dishonest metric. As an admittedly unnecessary and gimmicky continuation of the Ripley story, it manages to be both an exploration of the weirder aspects of the franchise and an absolutely gorgeous funhouse ride.
And I'll defend it to the bitter end as a decent, strange, nightmarish Alien flick.
All this.
Quote from: EJA on Oct 31, 2019, 12:31:06 PM
As flawed as it is, I'd take A3 over Resurrection any day.
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/1fa03641dbdcebfc16ee3bdc52ca81bf/tumblr_ou397j2kkB1teles0o1_250.gifv)
Resurrection is...tolerable. Like a trip to the bathroom, if you dare to look at the end product for what it is, you see it's just a poo circling the drain in a shameful display of indifference. An unrecognizable hodgepodge of everything that was once grand and good, now coated in dirtiness.
One can either accept its existence as part of life, or continue to mourn for what could've been.
Quote from: EJA on Oct 31, 2019, 12:31:06 PM
As flawed as it is, I'd take A3 over Resurrection any day.
Yep
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 31, 2019, 08:36:36 PM
Resurrection is...tolerable. Like a trip to the bathroom, if you dare to look at the end product for what it is, you see it's just a poo circling the drain in a shameful display of indifference. An unrecognizable hodgepodge of everything that was once grand and good, now coated in dirtiness.
One can either accept its existence as part of life, or continue to mourn for what could've been.
I've said it before, Rez is to Alien as Hot Shots is to Top Gun
I used to be able to enjoy it as an alien film. But having just watched it for the first time in awhile, the faults are becoming a bit more obvious now. The humor is good, but that's where the quality stopped for me.
Mike Wincott is still the man though.
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on Oct 31, 2019, 09:37:17 PMI've said it before, Rez is to Alien as Hot Shots is to Top Gun
Hardly.
One is a black comedy with a lot of serious dark and f*cked up stuff in it, the other is outright slapstick.
Part 2 was pretty good.
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on Oct 31, 2019, 09:37:17 PM
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 31, 2019, 08:36:36 PM
Resurrection is...tolerable. Like a trip to the bathroom, if you dare to look at the end product for what it is, you see it's just a poo circling the drain in a shameful display of indifference. An unrecognizable hodgepodge of everything that was once grand and good, now coated in dirtiness.
One can either accept its existence as part of life, or continue to mourn for what could've been.
I've said it before, Rez is to Alien as Hot Shots is to Top Gun
Do you wish you hadn't said it?
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 31, 2019, 08:36:36 PM
Resurrection is...tolerable. Like a trip to the bathroom, if you dare to look at the end product for what it is, you see it's just a poo circling the drain in a shameful display of indifference. An unrecognizable hodgepodge of everything that was once grand and good, now coated in dirtiness.
One can either accept its existence as part of life, or continue to mourn for what could've been.
This. Hence the condition "bad Alien film ".
The "do i have to draw you a schematic" line is utter gold though. Even if it fell from Tywin Lannister's ass.
Used it many, many times lol.
I love it, yeah used it a lot.
I don't love it, but it didn't kill the franchise I think. I actually really like that it expanded a little of the Alien lore with the "it can get traces from the host" concept.
It's the third best film in the franchise, the second and first being obvious. Alien is the best one. And Covenant just below the top three.
Quote from: SM on Oct 31, 2019, 10:58:03 PM
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on Oct 31, 2019, 09:37:17 PM
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 31, 2019, 08:36:36 PM
Resurrection is...tolerable. Like a trip to the bathroom, if you dare to look at the end product for what it is, you see it's just a poo circling the drain in a shameful display of indifference. An unrecognizable hodgepodge of everything that was once grand and good, now coated in dirtiness.
One can either accept its existence as part of life, or continue to mourn for what could've been.
I've said it before, Rez is to Alien as Hot Shots is to Top Gun
Do you wish you hadn't said it?
[/quote
I stand by what I said
Wasn't it actually video killed... oh, Buggles! Wrong argument...
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 31, 2019, 09:43:41 PM
Mike Wincott is still the man though.
They should've kept him longer in the film, to the end even. Kill someone else off instead.
Perhaps, but I'd also say John Hurt's the best actor in the original Alien.
Quote from: PsyKore on Nov 05, 2019, 09:25:41 AM
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 31, 2019, 09:43:41 PM
Mike Wincott is still the man though.
They should've kept him longer in the film, to the end even. Kill someone else off instead.
I found him a bit cringey in Resurrection myself.
As did I. Even Dan Hedaya is tolerable in other movies, but AR brought the ham out of everyone.
(https://www.farmlandfoods.com/media/products/FarmlandProductLg_BrownSugarSpiceSpiralHam.png)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 05, 2019, 03:52:10 PM
(https://www.farmlandfoods.com/media/products/FarmlandProductLg_BrownSugarSpiceSpiralHam.png)
How does this ham differ from the ham in say, Predator 2?
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 05, 2019, 06:41:48 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 05, 2019, 03:52:10 PM
(https://www.farmlandfoods.com/media/products/FarmlandProductLg_BrownSugarSpiceSpiralHam.png)
How does this ham differ from the ham in say, Predator 2?
The ham in P2 is rolled in cocaine, sprinkled with generous amount of OWLF spice and glazed in a thick Cajun magic sauce. Each ham is blessed by a former Voodoo priest of the LA posses, and baked to a luscious golden brown on enchanted stone, emitting a pleasant aroma of sweet @$$.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 05, 2019, 06:41:48 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 05, 2019, 03:52:10 PM
(https://www.farmlandfoods.com/media/products/FarmlandProductLg_BrownSugarSpiceSpiralHam.png)
How does this ham differ from the ham in say, Predator 2?
To me the question shouldn't be how does the ham differ. The question should be which recipe calls for ham.
Or which franchise should have quotes like "stick around", "I don't have time to bleed" or "You're one ugly mother f*cker" and which should have lines like "You also forgot the Science Division's basic quarantine law" or "I admire its purity".
To me, where Alien works best is when the human characters are normal, grounded regular men and women. But Predator works best when the humans are opposite of that, i.e. more exaggerated, larger than life, comic book like characters.
And I've always said that most of the Alien Resurrection cast belonged in a Predator film, not in Alien in my eyes.
Quote from: Huggs on Nov 05, 2019, 06:59:20 PM
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 05, 2019, 06:41:48 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 05, 2019, 03:52:10 PM
(https://www.farmlandfoods.com/media/products/FarmlandProductLg_BrownSugarSpiceSpiralHam.png)
How does this ham differ from the ham in say, Predator 2?
The ham in P2 is rolled in cocaine, sprinkled with generous amount of OWLF spice and glazed in a thick Cajun magic sauce. Each ham is blessed by a former Voodoo priest of the LA posses, and baked to a luscious golden brown on enchanted stone, emitting a pleasant aroma of sweet @$$.
He gets it! ;D
Quote from: Huggs on Nov 05, 2019, 06:59:20 PM
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 05, 2019, 06:41:48 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 05, 2019, 03:52:10 PM
(https://www.farmlandfoods.com/media/products/FarmlandProductLg_BrownSugarSpiceSpiralHam.png)
How does this ham differ from the ham in say, Predator 2?
The ham in P2 is rolled in cocaine, sprinkled with generous amount of OWLF spice and glazed in a thick Cajun magic sauce. Each ham is blessed by a former Voodoo priest of the LA posses, and baked to a luscious golden brown on enchanted stone, emitting a pleasant aroma of sweet @$$.
Don't forget the Paxton spice.
(https://i.imgur.com/VXd0pD0.gif)
...And garnished with freshly ground Jerry.
Quote from: Huggs on Nov 05, 2019, 06:59:20 PM
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 05, 2019, 06:41:48 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 05, 2019, 03:52:10 PM
(https://www.farmlandfoods.com/media/products/FarmlandProductLg_BrownSugarSpiceSpiralHam.png)
How does this ham differ from the ham in say, Predator 2?
The ham in P2 is rolled in cocaine, sprinkled with generous amount of OWLF spice and glazed in a thick Cajun magic sauce. Each ham is blessed by a former Voodoo priest of the LA posses, and baked to a luscious golden brown on enchanted stone, emitting a pleasant aroma of sweet @$$.
Ham also fits the super macho predator series more so than Alien series.
Clearly these guys eat green berets and ham for breakfast.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwarnet.ws%2Fuploads%2Fmedia%2Ftopic%2F2019%2F09%2F16%2F05%2F318de07716479436dc83.jpg&hash=153d64e14656d86a23aba3f8f2c0feed5f422a92)
Haha, no joking. But yeah I agree with the sentiment.
However, the Preds COULD BE more easily added into the Alien horror verse over the Aliens being added to the Predator macho verse.
I think this is where the issue so far has lied in most of the AvPs. You take the frightening out of the Alien and you lose, but if you ADD the horror into the Pred, you don't lose.
Best example I've seen so far is Psykore's FEAR 3. Where the main horror boss of the game was surprisingly a Pred where there was no super macho guy around to kill it. Just victims trying to survive it.
Good point. Predators are hunters who hide from their prey until they're ready to strike (and often not even then). Not unlike Aliens. You could employ similar tactics.
So for AVP to work everything has to be brought to the tonal place that Alien resides in.
Predator is only considered more hammy because of the human characters. Both creatures benefit from a more horror based theme regardless of the movie they are in. The only reason you wouldn't put Aliens in Predator is the Earth setting.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Nov 27, 2019, 03:21:07 AM
However, the Preds COULD BE more easily added into the Alien horror verse over the Aliens being added to the Predator macho verse.
I think this is where the issue so far has lied in most of the AvPs. You take the frightening out of the Alien and you lose, but if you ADD the horror into the Pred, you don't lose.
Best example I've seen so far is Psykore's FEAR 3. Where the main horror boss of the game was surprisingly a Pred where there was no super macho guy around to kill it. Just victims trying to survive it.
This makes sense to me. And it is why, I think, AVP worked better than AVPR. AVP attempted to play up the Alien world/lore/atmosphere (though it was very, very constricted by its Earth setting, among a myriad of other issues) whereas AVPR tried much harder to be an edgy Predator movie.
Now, granted, AVP is very bad (despite being the "better" of the two) and I don't see myself ever watching it again. Nor do I ever want to see Alien and Predator cross over again, to be completely honest.
That makes a lot of sense, throw the other guy into your universe. Instead of having no tone, or what I call "real life tone" that most of the MCU goes for, without an overarching style
Quote from: Highland on Nov 30, 2019, 01:26:18 AM
Predator is only considered more hammy because of the human characters. Both creatures benefit from a more horror based theme regardless of the movie they are in. The only reason you wouldn't put Aliens in Predator is the Earth setting.
Indeed horror benefits both, but hammy characters only benefit Predator. To Alien it does all kinds of damage. imo
Yes certainly, that's probably why I can only tolerate Resurrection, if I see it as an illegitimate offshoot.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 30, 2019, 12:51:02 PM
Quote from: Highland on Nov 30, 2019, 01:26:18 AM
Predator is only considered more hammy because of the human characters. Both creatures benefit from a more horror based theme regardless of the movie they are in. The only reason you wouldn't put Aliens in Predator is the Earth setting.
Indeed horror benefits both, but hammy characters only benefit Predator. To Alien it does all kinds of damage. imo
Possibly. I don't quite see the difference between the marines and Dutch's squad though.
Alien doesn't suit comedy though that's for sure.
The best AVP would have been the original comic, but Anderson took to many elements, you couldn't make it now.
I think Alien 3 damaged the franchise but in the process somehow managed to strengthen it.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 01, 2019, 01:30:10 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 30, 2019, 12:51:02 PM
Quote from: Highland on Nov 30, 2019, 01:26:18 AM
Predator is only considered more hammy because of the human characters. Both creatures benefit from a more horror based theme regardless of the movie they are in. The only reason you wouldn't put Aliens in Predator is the Earth setting.
Indeed horror benefits both, but hammy characters only benefit Predator. To Alien it does all kinds of damage. imo
Possibly. I don't quite see the difference between the marines and Dutch's squad though.
Alien doesn't suit comedy though that's for sure.
The best AVP would have been the original comic, but Anderson took to many elements, you couldn't make it now.
The Marines whole setup is more realistic. I got the impression that future wars in the Alien verse will be more built on quelling insurgencies than anything else. They had firepower, but in order for that small a squad to work they would have to have firepower and be capable enough as individuals that they could do the job that it takes three or four people to do today. Their 100 round mags, with multiple mags, is what a light machine gunner would carry today and they all carried it, so they already had more firepower than an equivalent squad would have today. They had Doppler for incoming enemy contacts, and NVGs and thermal seemed to be standard issue. I don't know how it is anywhere else, but we had to sign for those things and draw them for night ops and put them back when those operations were over. And had to 550 cord them to our helmets so we wouldn't lose them (or tie thermals to our weapons).
The only thing that I didn't find realistic was the smart gun. A tracking weapon is a cool idea, but the way that it was positioned, if you couldn't go prone when incoming fire started up, then you would be a huge sitting duck.
Predator crew talked a whole bunch of shit and backed it up by being a rescue mission that failed but then involved the absolute massacring of a base full of people with a weapon system a person couldn't physically carry. A minigun has way too much recoil to steady itself when it isn't mounted to something, and it ejects rounds so fast that they guys had to wear flak vest to keep from bruising their ribs.
Rescue missions are the hardest missions to undertake on the planet, and IF you fail, you don't stick around to wipe out a base in enemy territory. Dutch's team was superhuman. That is some Captain America shit if Cap didn't try to keep people alive.
The banter is actually fairly spot on in both movies, because soldiers of any level talk a shit ton of noise to each other. Emotional hardening is just part of the process. If words hurt you then how are you going to react when a 7.62 round caves in your buddy's face?
I understand what you mean about weakening in the year of release, but strengthening in the long run, it's kind of how Beyond Good & Evil not getting a sequel for years meant it stayed in the minds of more people for longer.
I think you can get away with more when the setting is the future. Ripley already told them the Aliens had acid for blood, but they went in shorts and T-shirt.
I enjoyed both to be honest. I'd love if one of the statue companies did both squads , id pay the $$$$
Nobody believed Ripley. Burked only took a shot in the dark just to see if she was legit or not.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 01, 2019, 03:09:21 AM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 01, 2019, 01:30:10 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 30, 2019, 12:51:02 PM
Quote from: Highland on Nov 30, 2019, 01:26:18 AM
Predator is only considered more hammy because of the human characters. Both creatures benefit from a more horror based theme regardless of the movie they are in. The only reason you wouldn't put Aliens in Predator is the Earth setting.
Indeed horror benefits both, but hammy characters only benefit Predator. To Alien it does all kinds of damage. imo
Possibly. I don't quite see the difference between the marines and Dutch's squad though.
Alien doesn't suit comedy though that's for sure.
The best AVP would have been the original comic, but Anderson took to many elements, you couldn't make it now.
The Marines whole setup is more realistic. I got the impression that future wars in the Alien verse will be more built on quelling insurgencies than anything else. They had firepower, but in order for that small a squad to work they would have to have firepower and be capable enough as individuals that they could do the job that it takes three or four people to do today. Their 100 round mags, with multiple mags, is what a light machine gunner would carry today and they all carried it, so they already had more firepower than an equivalent squad would have today. They had Doppler for incoming enemy contacts, and NVGs and thermal seemed to be standard issue. I don't know how it is anywhere else, but we had to sign for those things and draw them for night ops and put them back when those operations were over. And had to 550 cord them to our helmets so we wouldn't lose them (or tie thermals to our weapons).
The only thing that I didn't find realistic was the smart gun. A tracking weapon is a cool idea, but the way that it was positioned, if you couldn't go prone when incoming fire started up, then you would be a huge sitting duck.
Predator crew talked a whole bunch of shit and backed it up by being a rescue mission that failed but then involved the absolute massacring of a base full of people with a weapon system a person couldn't physically carry. A minigun has way too much recoil to steady itself when it isn't mounted to something, and it ejects rounds so fast that they guys had to wear flak vest to keep from bruising their ribs.
Rescue missions are the hardest missions to undertake on the planet, and IF you fail, you don't stick around to wipe out a base in enemy territory. Dutch's team was superhuman. That is some Captain America shit if Cap didn't try to keep people alive.
The banter is actually fairly spot on in both movies, because soldiers of any level talk a shit ton of noise to each other. Emotional hardening is just part of the process. If words hurt you then how are you going to react when a 7.62 round caves in your buddy's face?
I love it when you talk army.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 01, 2019, 07:40:32 PM
Nobody believed Ripley. Burked only took a shot in the dark just to see if she was legit or not.
They still went in with Smart guns and nukes though...
Quote from: Highland on Dec 01, 2019, 01:30:10 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 30, 2019, 12:51:02 PM
Quote from: Highland on Nov 30, 2019, 01:26:18 AM
Predator is only considered more hammy because of the human characters. Both creatures benefit from a more horror based theme regardless of the movie they are in. The only reason you wouldn't put Aliens in Predator is the Earth setting.
Indeed horror benefits both, but hammy characters only benefit Predator. To Alien it does all kinds of damage. imo
The best AVP would have been the original comic, but Anderson took to many elements, you couldn't make it now.
Well, Prometheus took a whooole lot from the movie too. I think if the movie would stick close to the comic series set on a different planet it would have been different enough. Only the idea of Holding the queen to set up the hunt wouldve been the same. Well, and a Predator on our side
Quote from: Highland on Dec 01, 2019, 10:21:13 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 01, 2019, 07:40:32 PM
Nobody believed Ripley. Burked only took a shot in the dark just to see if she was legit or not.
They still went in with Smart guns and nukes though...
Could be SOP whenever there's a loss of contact between a colony and the network.
SM?
Quote from: StrangeShape on Dec 01, 2019, 11:30:57 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 01, 2019, 01:30:10 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 30, 2019, 12:51:02 PM
Quote from: Highland on Nov 30, 2019, 01:26:18 AM
Predator is only considered more hammy because of the human characters. Both creatures benefit from a more horror based theme regardless of the movie they are in. The only reason you wouldn't put Aliens in Predator is the Earth setting.
Indeed horror benefits both, but hammy characters only benefit Predator. To Alien it does all kinds of damage. imo
The best AVP would have been the original comic, but Anderson took to many elements, you couldn't make it now.
Well, Prometheus took a whooole lot from the movie too. I think if the movie would stick close to the comic series set on a different planet it would have been different enough. Only the idea of Holding the queen to set up the hunt wouldve been the same. Well, and a Predator on our side
I think in Prometheus' case, it isn't so much as pulling from AVP as it is that Prometheus and AVP both pulled from some of the same sources of inspiration.
That quote about Ridley's response when Lindelof brought up AVP always makes me laugh. :D
Yeah, and if all Ridley Scott's seen is the film, I don't blame him.
Ridley hasn't even seen it. :D
I don't even know if he's seen Resurrection, to be honest. He seems to have implied seeing Alien 3 at some point by mentioning that one took place in a prison, or something. :P
He has, said something about how you can't put the Alien in a glass box.
Quote from: StrangeShape on Dec 01, 2019, 11:30:57 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 01, 2019, 01:30:10 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 30, 2019, 12:51:02 PM
Quote from: Highland on Nov 30, 2019, 01:26:18 AM
Predator is only considered more hammy because of the human characters. Both creatures benefit from a more horror based theme regardless of the movie they are in. The only reason you wouldn't put Aliens in Predator is the Earth setting.
Indeed horror benefits both, but hammy characters only benefit Predator. To Alien it does all kinds of damage. imo
The best AVP would have been the original comic, but Anderson took to many elements, you couldn't make it now.
Well, Prometheus took a whooole lot from the movie too. I think if the movie would stick close to the comic series set on a different planet it would have been different enough. Only the idea of Holding the queen to set up the hunt wouldve been the same. Well, and a Predator on our side
and the female hero and the hero Predator. It would have been the exact same movie.
I'm still disappointed they didn't do a pitch black and go budget off world. Wouldn't have even been that hard. Could have still even kept the snow if you wanted.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 01, 2019, 11:46:38 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 01, 2019, 10:21:13 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 01, 2019, 07:40:32 PM
Nobody believed Ripley. Burked only took a shot in the dark just to see if she was legit or not.
They still went in with Smart guns and nukes though...
Could be SOP whenever there's a loss of contact between a colony and the network.
SM?
They didn't 'go in with nukes'.
SGs would be SOP if there's a xenomorph involved.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Dec 02, 2019, 12:47:10 AM
Ridley hasn't even seen it. :D
I don't even know if he's seen Resurrection, to be honest. He seems to have implied seeing Alien 3 at some point by mentioning that one took place in a prison, or something. :P
I'm not sure Ridley's seen anything outside of his own films. What with Aliens using CG and all...
I wouldn't be surprised if Ridley has seen them all including AvP. Saying you haven't allows you to plead ignorance and subsequently avoid ripping your fellow filmakers after being boxed in by follow-up questions. Most of us eventually learn that if you have nothing nice to say... :) Also not nice things can take on a life of its own these days.
Of course, we all know Damon Lindelof knows AvP pretty well when he raised the concern that Prometheus was contradicting AvP, which was followed by an icy Riddles death stare. :laugh:
Quote from: Highland on Dec 01, 2019, 10:21:13 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 01, 2019, 07:40:32 PM
Nobody believed Ripley. Burked only took a shot in the dark just to see if she was legit or not.
They still went in with Smart guns and nukes though...
Smart guns would just be the future equivalent of the automatic rifleman. In the Army only two people per squad used to carry automatic rifles, and that would've been your saw gunner, as the M4s used to be only semi auto.
Presently most frontline units have m4a1, so technically everybody has full auto capability, but the SAW and the Smartgun would have higher rates of fires, and with the bipod/tripod the m249 uses and the chest harness the smartgun uses, they would be able to control those higher rates of fires better than the standard rifleman would with the m4a1............and the m41a.
Nukes all seemed to be under lock and key aboard the Sulaco.
Quote from: SM on Dec 02, 2019, 08:31:07 AM
SGs would be SOP if there's a xenomorph involved.
That makes sense if they're not expecting return fire.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 01, 2019, 03:09:21 AMThe only thing that I didn't find realistic was the smart gun. A tracking weapon is a cool idea, but the way that it was positioned, if you couldn't go prone when incoming fire started up, then you would be a huge sitting duck.
This. It's cool as hell, but if you stop and think about it it's only ever struck me as something that would be really dumb in a situation where your enemy actually shoots back.
Unless they're going up against another army as technically advanced as them, it's not really an issue.
Didn't the technical manual show how to fire it from a crouched and prone position?
Yep. Crouched worked okay, but firing while lying on your back looked very awkward.
Must be a load of Marines with no feet.
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Dec 02, 2019, 07:51:27 PMDidn't the technical manual show how to fire it from a crouched and prone position?
Yes, but good luck getting into that position quickly enough to avoid being shot.
Snipers must love smartgunners.
Assuming they aren't torn to shreds by IR aimed bullets while they're aiming.
I can't help but wonder how easy it would be to thwart a smartgun's IR targeting system by either masking one's body heat or by elevating the temperature of one's surroundings.
Or just throwing some incendiary grenades about.
There's also the notable goof that the Smartguns in Aliens and so many video games wouldn't actually be able to track the Aliens, because they have no IR signature - Predators can't see them with their normal sight and Dietrich looks right at one (whilst wondering aloud if they might not show up in infrared) just before the Hive ambush and doesn't see it.
You could argue in Aliens Vasquez and Drake are just spraying and praying rather than locking on, but in numerous video games at least the gun tracks Aliens flawlessly even though they should be invisible to it.
I always just figured Drake and Vasquez were aiming the old-fashioned way.
Quote from: SM on Dec 02, 2019, 07:26:42 PM
Unless they're going up against another army as technically advanced as them, it's not really an issue.
You don't want a higher profile in battle, even if they were going against soldiers of today. That 7.62 round going in any unprotected skin is still going to hurt the same.
That said if the tracker was pretty proficient tech, then maybe it could function the same way that dudes who spend a ton of time clearing rooms. Like Seals and Army SF etc. It gets them before they get you.
That said knowing how Army tech works, and that Marine tech is always way behind, I doubt very much that either standard infantry units will ever get some kind of tech that surpasses the years of training it takes for a grunt to get that proficient.
It's also possible that the smartgun targeting system has a motion-tracking component to it as well, just like the sentry guns apparently do.
And even if the IR targeting system can't see the aliens, it should still see the marines with whatever IFF component it is that excludes them from being detected by their own motion trackers. That may prevent a lot of friendly-fire accidents (at least, those involving the smartgun).
Either way, I still think the smartgun is probably reserved for bug hunts and they have something closer to a modern SAW for stand-up fights.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 02, 2019, 04:18:44 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 01, 2019, 10:21:13 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 01, 2019, 07:40:32 PM
Nobody believed Ripley. Burked only took a shot in the dark just to see if she was legit or not.
They still went in with Smart guns and nukes though...
Smart guns would just be the future equivalent of the automatic rifleman. In the Army only two people per squad used to carry automatic rifles, and that would've been your saw gunner, as the M4s used to be only semi auto.
Presently most frontline units have m4a1, so technically everybody has full auto capability, but the SAW and the Smartgun would have higher rates of fires, and with the bipod/tripod the m249 uses and the chest harness the smartgun uses, they would be able to control those higher rates of fires better than the standard rifleman would with the m4a1............and the m41a.
Nukes all seemed to be under lock and key aboard the Sulaco.
With a green man in charge.
Would you raid a nuclear powerplant with bullets, or not leave a secondary team somewhere else?
Doesn't seem very clever.
I wonder if Kimarhi ever had a CO like Gorman.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 02, 2019, 09:48:22 PM
I always just figured Drake and Vasquez were aiming the old-fashioned way.
They were. The Aliens don't show up in infrared in the heat of the hive. Just before Drake's gun runs out, he's spraying wildly.
Aliens may show up quite easily when the ambient temperature is lower.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 02, 2019, 10:45:30 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 02, 2019, 04:18:44 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 01, 2019, 10:21:13 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 01, 2019, 07:40:32 PM
Nobody believed Ripley. Burked only took a shot in the dark just to see if she was legit or not.
They still went in with Smart guns and nukes though...
Smart guns would just be the future equivalent of the automatic rifleman. In the Army only two people per squad used to carry automatic rifles, and that would've been your saw gunner, as the M4s used to be only semi auto.
Presently most frontline units have m4a1, so technically everybody has full auto capability, but the SAW and the Smartgun would have higher rates of fires, and with the bipod/tripod the m249 uses and the chest harness the smartgun uses, they would be able to control those higher rates of fires better than the standard rifleman would with the m4a1............and the m41a.
Nukes all seemed to be under lock and key aboard the Sulaco.
With a green man in charge.
Would you raid a nuclear powerplant with bullets, or not leave a secondary team somewhere else?
Doesn't seem very clever.
Marines are there to shoot stuff. Since absolutely no Marine picked up the fact that they were under big fusion reactors, I think it is safe to assume they aren't any smarter in the future than they are right now.
The failure comes from Gorman not immediately calling his troops back and redistributing proper ammo and weapons. And as RD said way back in the day, typically you would have a final ORP to do any last minute change to plans.............but that is getting pretty technical for a movie.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 02, 2019, 10:47:10 PM
I wonder if Kimarhi ever had a CO like Gorman.
Most of my CO's were former enlisted first. Typically this is a good thing because they've already done what you have done as an enlisted soldier and can relate to what you are doing. They are also usually tactically more proficient. But you still get those guys who are only in it for the promotions and are just using their CO time at the company level to proceed to battalion.
I've only had one XO (became CO after I left) I thought gave the slightest damn about his soldiers and that was way back in the FA days.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 03, 2019, 12:10:53 AMMarines are there to shoot stuff. Since absolutely no Marine picked up the fact that they were under big fusion reactors, I think it is safe to assume they aren't any smarter in the future than they are right now.
:laugh:
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 03, 2019, 12:10:53 AMThe failure comes from Gorman not immediately calling his troops back and redistributing proper ammo and weapons. And as RD said way back in the day, typically you would have a final ORP to do any last minute change to plans.............but that is getting pretty technical for a movie.
This?
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=50066.msg1867596#msg1867596
The hubris is the point.
Are you sure you don't just feel protective of Gorman now?
"Now"?
Since he became S Gorman.
"he"?
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 03, 2019, 12:10:53 AM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 02, 2019, 10:45:30 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 02, 2019, 04:18:44 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 01, 2019, 10:21:13 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 01, 2019, 07:40:32 PM
Nobody believed Ripley. Burked only took a shot in the dark just to see if she was legit or not.
They still went in with Smart guns and nukes though...
Smart guns would just be the future equivalent of the automatic rifleman. In the Army only two people per squad used to carry automatic rifles, and that would've been your saw gunner, as the M4s used to be only semi auto.
Presently most frontline units have m4a1, so technically everybody has full auto capability, but the SAW and the Smartgun would have higher rates of fires, and with the bipod/tripod the m249 uses and the chest harness the smartgun uses, they would be able to control those higher rates of fires better than the standard rifleman would with the m4a1............and the m41a.
Nukes all seemed to be under lock and key aboard the Sulaco.
With a green man in charge.
Would you raid a nuclear powerplant with bullets, or not leave a secondary team somewhere else?
Doesn't seem very clever.
Marines are there to shoot stuff. Since absolutely no Marine picked up the fact that they were under big fusion reactors, I think it is safe to assume they aren't any smarter in the future than they are right now.
The failure comes from Gorman not immediately calling his troops back and redistributing proper ammo and weapons. And as RD said way back in the day, typically you would have a final ORP to do any last minute change to plans.............but that is getting pretty technical for a movie.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 02, 2019, 10:47:10 PM
I wonder if Kimarhi ever had a CO like Gorman.
Most of my CO's were former enlisted first. Typically this is a good thing because they've already done what you have done as an enlisted soldier and can relate to what you are doing. They are also usually tactically more proficient. But you still get those guys who are only in it for the promotions and are just using their CO at the company level to proceed to battalion.
I've only had one XO I thought gave the slightest damn about his soldiers and that was way back in the FA days.
That's why I'm saying the realism of the Marines doesn't seem to be that much better than the realism of Dutches squad, unless you're talking purely equipment. I'd even argue the military is better represented in Dutches squad than in Aliens.
Shit only get's real in Aliens when Ripley gets put in charge.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 02, 2019, 10:11:31 PMIt's also possible that the smartgun targeting system has a motion-tracking component to it as well, just like the sentry guns apparently do.
According to the
Tech Manual it doesn't. And that's really the only in-depth technical info we have on it.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 02, 2019, 10:11:31 PMAnd even if the IR targeting system can't see the aliens, it should still see the marines with whatever IFF component it is that excludes them from being detected by their own motion trackers. That may prevent a lot of friendly-fire accidents (at least, those involving the smartgun).
Considering Gorman feels the need to check with Apone that none of the men are around when Frost picks up Newt on the tracker, the tech is far from foolproof.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 03, 2019, 06:07:23 AM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 03, 2019, 12:10:53 AM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 02, 2019, 10:45:30 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 02, 2019, 04:18:44 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 01, 2019, 10:21:13 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Dec 01, 2019, 07:40:32 PM
Nobody believed Ripley. Burked only took a shot in the dark just to see if she was legit or not.
They still went in with Smart guns and nukes though...
Smart guns would just be the future equivalent of the automatic rifleman. In the Army only two people per squad used to carry automatic rifles, and that would've been your saw gunner, as the M4s used to be only semi auto.
Presently most frontline units have m4a1, so technically everybody has full auto capability, but the SAW and the Smartgun would have higher rates of fires, and with the bipod/tripod the m249 uses and the chest harness the smartgun uses, they would be able to control those higher rates of fires better than the standard rifleman would with the m4a1............and the m41a.
Nukes all seemed to be under lock and key aboard the Sulaco.
With a green man in charge.
Would you raid a nuclear powerplant with bullets, or not leave a secondary team somewhere else?
Doesn't seem very clever.
Marines are there to shoot stuff. Since absolutely no Marine picked up the fact that they were under big fusion reactors, I think it is safe to assume they aren't any smarter in the future than they are right now.
The failure comes from Gorman not immediately calling his troops back and redistributing proper ammo and weapons. And as RD said way back in the day, typically you would have a final ORP to do any last minute change to plans.............but that is getting pretty technical for a movie.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 02, 2019, 10:47:10 PM
I wonder if Kimarhi ever had a CO like Gorman.
Most of my CO's were former enlisted first. Typically this is a good thing because they've already done what you have done as an enlisted soldier and can relate to what you are doing. They are also usually tactically more proficient. But you still get those guys who are only in it for the promotions and are just using their CO at the company level to proceed to battalion.
I've only had one XO I thought gave the slightest damn about his soldiers and that was way back in the FA days.
That's why I'm saying the realism of the Marines doesn't seem to be that much better than the realism of Dutches squad, unless you're talking purely equipment. I'd even argue the military is better represented in Dutches squad than in Aliens.
Shit only get's real in Aliens when Ripley gets put in charge.
And I'm telling you that it isn't.
There is a reason Delta bails after rescuing hostages and doesn't stay around to engage a whole taliban/al qaeda/isis camp. Because to carry the ammo that Dutch's company would need to clear that out would make each one of those guys look like they were packing death stranding worth of gear. You also can't just discount what the enemy would do. Typically they aren't going to sit and wait for you to massacre them. If you breach any camp expect a QRF to be immediately coming your way. What Dutch did would be a suicide mission in real life. Nobody is that good.
They both have 80s stereotypes but only one of the crews are superhuman. Once the first contact begins in Aliens, the Marines are brought back down to earth real quick.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Dec 03, 2019, 09:57:50 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 02, 2019, 10:11:31 PMIt's also possible that the smartgun targeting system has a motion-tracking component to it as well, just like the sentry guns apparently do.
According to the Tech Manual it doesn't. And that's really the only in-depth technical info we have on it.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 02, 2019, 10:11:31 PMAnd even if the IR targeting system can't see the aliens, it should still see the marines with whatever IFF component it is that excludes them from being detected by their own motion trackers. That may prevent a lot of friendly-fire accidents (at least, those involving the smartgun).
Considering Gorman feels the need to check with Apone that none of the men are around when Frost picks up Newt on the tracker, the tech is far from foolproof.
Yeah, that's the one. Though after that I did reclass to 12b (I was 13p at the time) so did get more than a little familiarity with what RD was talking about. Sapper squads are based off of infantry squads, except we carry other equipment. Mainly explosives.
Going into a nuclear reactor with no weapons, no rally point and no back up team also seems like a suicide mission to be honest. On top of wearing T-shirts. Maybe both are a bit silly.
Neither on its own are the greatest examples of realism imo, but when it comes to hammy, action figure archetype, over-the-top exaggerated characters and cast... Predator wins hands down as it should be. Both the cast and characters in Aliens are much more grounded in reality than Predator in comparison. Of course, if we compare Predator and Alien, Aliens stands at the halfway mark. :)
Unfortunately following Predator 2, I've noticed a very slight change in casting trajectory in Predators, which became further amplified in The Predator, a path that has moved away from casting larger than life protagonist(s), in detrement to the franchise (imo).
Quote from: SM on Dec 02, 2019, 07:58:34 PM
Yep. Crouched worked okay, but firing while lying on your back looked very awkward.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Dec 02, 2019, 08:13:18 PM
Yes, but good luck getting into that position quickly enough to avoid being shot.
Ok, I thought I remembered right but I wasn't sure. Laying down is a bit silly when you're thinking in terms of modern fire arms but I just suspend my disbelief and assume it can be fire effectively like that considering its tracking. The Smartgun may only fill a smaller support role (like the M249 vs the M240B).
I wonder if the smartgun is more like a "shock trooper"-esc weapon and is meant for small and quick engagements as opposed to larger battles.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Dec 02, 2019, 09:42:59 PM
Or just throwing some incendiary grenades about.
There's also the notable goof that the Smartguns in Aliens and so many video games wouldn't actually be able to track the Aliens, because they have no IR signature - Predators can't see them with their normal sight and Dietrich looks right at one (whilst wondering aloud if they might not show up in infrared) just before the Hive ambush and doesn't see it.
You could argue in Aliens Vasquez and Drake are just spraying and praying rather than locking on, but in numerous video games at least the gun tracks Aliens flawlessly even though they should be invisible to it.
I actually hate the idea of the smartgun using IR/Heat to track targets because it quickly becomes useless in a place that's as humid and full of lush jungle and small creatures as say Vietnam. I've kind of always figured its "settings" can be changed based on the situation to track things of a certain/average height and weight and would refuse to target things with a friendly IFF.
Thats how I saw it in Life and Death anyways, other wise Rucker would be tracking the entire jungle if it was just based on movement or heat alone.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Dec 03, 2019, 09:57:50 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 02, 2019, 10:11:31 PMIt's also possible that the smartgun targeting system has a motion-tracking component to it as well, just like the sentry guns apparently do.
According to the Tech Manual it doesn't. And that's really the only in-depth technical info we have on it.
The CMTM says a lot, but it also has mistakes.
As nearly everything does in this franchise.
Does TCF?
It had some odd timings in relation to deep space travel.
Uh oh.
I'm not sure I can read it now...
Yeah I'd give it a miss.
Everything has it's mistakes, even my favourites Alien, Aliens, Alien³ and The Cold Forge.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Dec 04, 2019, 03:06:57 PM
Everything has it's mistakes, even my favourites Alien, Aliens, Alien³ and The Cold Forge.
Wait, what ? I'm really curious now !
After quickly checking my notes on the wiki page:
Spoiler
- Dorian paints the Earth rise on the Moon, but the Moon's tidally locked so the Earth wouldn't "rise" relative to the horizon. (I guess it might just be stationary above the horizon, but the book specifically uses thew word Earthrise.)
- The number of staff on the station is inconsistent. Early on there are 32, later there are only 22.
- It says the sentry guns fire 10x24 mm. According to the Tech Manual they actually fire 10x28 mm, same as the Smartgun.
- A bit like the staff, the number of Xenos in the kennels is inconsistent. Dick says there's 63; earlier Blue said she has indeed used up 63 eggs, but adds most of the specimens were destroyed or lost before reaching adulthood.
- It refers to the Colonial Marines as USMC, it should be USCM.
- When Blue finds Charles cocooned in the Hive, he knows about Dorian setting the Xenos on the survivors, but he wasn't there when this happened.
- Dorian gets captured on one side of the station and wakes up on the other, meaning he somehow crossed the decompressed section without a helmet on his space suit. He can't have been taken through the vents because earlier on it's stated a person in a suit wouldn't fit. (Although I guess its possible he was Facehugged immediately, and that's what kept him alive on the journey. He'd still get some serious frostbite though.)
There's also the fact the kennels are painted entirely green specifically so the Xenos will show up clearly should they escape - but when they do get loose the area's flooded with red alert lights, turning the walls brown and completely ruining the effect.
(Disclaimer: The only reason I've picked up on so many slip-ups is because a) I'm a f*cking nerd, and b) I've read the book three times already :P)
Dorian may have painted Earthrise from orbit.
I genuinely think the staff number being inconsistent is an Alien³ reference, as Alex White is a self cited proponent of it.
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2019, 09:53:10 AMDorian may have painted Earthrise from orbit.
I recall thinking he was definitely on the surface, but you may be right.
Gateway station Aliens style I guess.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Dec 05, 2019, 09:20:21 AM
After quickly checking my notes on the wiki page:
Spoiler
- Dorian paints the Earth rise on the Moon, but the Moon's tidally locked so the Earth wouldn't "rise" relative to the horizon. (I guess it might just be stationary above the horizon, but the book specifically uses thew word Earthrise.)
- The number of staff on the station is inconsistent. Early on there are 32, later there are only 22.
- It says the sentry guns fire 10x24 mm. According to the Tech Manual they actually fire 10x28 mm, same as the Smartgun.
- A bit like the staff, the number of Xenos in the kennels is inconsistent. Dick says there's 63; earlier Blue said she has indeed used up 63 eggs, but adds most of the specimens were destroyed or lost before reaching adulthood.
- It refers to the Colonial Marines as USMC, it should be USCM.
- When Blue finds Charles cocooned in the Hive, he knows about Dorian setting the Xenos on the survivors, but he wasn't there when this happened.
- Dorian gets captured on one side of the station and wakes up on the other, meaning he somehow crossed the decompressed section without a helmet on his space suit. He can't have been taken through the vents because earlier on it's stated a person in a suit wouldn't fit. (Although I guess its possible he was Facehugged immediately, and that's what kept him alive on the journey. He'd still get some serious frostbite though.)
There's also the fact the kennels are painted entirely green specifically so the Xenos will show up clearly should they escape - but when they do get loose the area's flooded with red alert lights, turning the walls brown and completely ruining the effect.
(Disclaimer: The only reason I've picked up on so many slip-ups is because a) I'm a f*cking nerd, and b) I've read the book three times already :P)
How was this allowed?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 06, 2019, 02:43:07 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Dec 05, 2019, 09:20:21 AM
After quickly checking my notes on the wiki page:
Spoiler
- Dorian paints the Earth rise on the Moon, but the Moon's tidally locked so the Earth wouldn't "rise" relative to the horizon. (I guess it might just be stationary above the horizon, but the book specifically uses thew word Earthrise.)
- The number of staff on the station is inconsistent. Early on there are 32, later there are only 22.
- It says the sentry guns fire 10x24 mm. According to the Tech Manual they actually fire 10x28 mm, same as the Smartgun.
- A bit like the staff, the number of Xenos in the kennels is inconsistent. Dick says there's 63; earlier Blue said she has indeed used up 63 eggs, but adds most of the specimens were destroyed or lost before reaching adulthood.
- It refers to the Colonial Marines as USMC, it should be USCM.
- When Blue finds Charles cocooned in the Hive, he knows about Dorian setting the Xenos on the survivors, but he wasn't there when this happened.
- Dorian gets captured on one side of the station and wakes up on the other, meaning he somehow crossed the decompressed section without a helmet on his space suit. He can't have been taken through the vents because earlier on it's stated a person in a suit wouldn't fit. (Although I guess its possible he was Facehugged immediately, and that's what kept him alive on the journey. He'd still get some serious frostbite though.)
There's also the fact the kennels are painted entirely green specifically so the Xenos will show up clearly should they escape - but when they do get loose the area's flooded with red alert lights, turning the walls brown and completely ruining the effect.
(Disclaimer: The only reason I've picked up on so many slip-ups is because a) I'm a f*cking nerd, and b) I've read the book three times already :P)
How was this allowed?
How many people would actually pick up on this? Proofreaders probably didn't. I know I didn't.
Yeah, I don't think I noticed any of those on my first read-through. It was only when I went back to it that I started twigging the mistakes.
But as Fiendishly says, everything has goofs. Doesn't stop The Cold Forge being a superb read.
My life is ruined over these revelations lol. Oh well. Its still a good read.
We watched the Special Edition yesterday and I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it.
Glad to hear it.
Quote from: FenGiddel on Dec 08, 2019, 08:59:35 PM
We watched the Special Edition yesterday and I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it.
Was it better than the theatrical cut?
In nearly every way, I don't think it's a coincidence that everyone I talk to on the internet, that likes it has reappraised it because of the SE.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 08, 2019, 09:16:02 PM
Quote from: FenGiddel on Dec 08, 2019, 08:59:35 PM
We watched the Special Edition yesterday and I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it.
Was it better than the theatrical cut?
I couldn't say; it has been a great while since I last watched the TC.
I definitely prefer the extended version, but I also get why people who don't love the film to start with find it far too long and slow.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Dec 09, 2019, 09:41:58 AM
I definitely prefer the extended version, but I also get why people who don't love the film to start with find it far too long and slow.
Right. I enjoyed the pacing and the characters' moments. That may have been because I've seen A3 so many times that my subconscious fills in anything missing, but I don't know. It was a pleasant surprise. The whole "a bunch of lifers who found God at the ass-end of space", especially. When there's an alien on the loose, platitudes go out the door and one must quickly put one's money where one's mouth is... ;)
Doesn't the egg bother you?
Nope. Neither does Luke Skywalker's "facelift" in ESB. Some things just "is"...
Quote from: FenGiddel on Dec 14, 2019, 12:47:47 AM
Nope. Neither does Luke Skywalker's "facelift" in ESB. Some things just "is"...
Doesn't the wampa attack correct that?
;D
NO. Period.
...then on the other hand I'm a flaming A3 fanboy.
'memba this?
Quote from: SiL on Jan 27, 2014, 05:13:16 AM
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Jan 27, 2014, 05:05:19 AMAlien3 is superior.
Except it isn't. It's not a well made film. It's pretty and it sounds nice, but it's a hacked together mess. The only people who refuse to admit it are fans who for some reason decided they needed to convince themselves otherwise.
I like Alien3 more than Aliens, but it's not the better movie.
That was a classic thread.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 15, 2019, 04:57:28 AM
'memba this?
Quote from: SiL on Jan 27, 2014, 05:13:16 AM
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Jan 27, 2014, 05:05:19 AMAlien3 is superior.
Except it isn't. It's not a well made film. It's pretty and it sounds nice, but it's a hacked together mess. The only people who refuse to admit it are fans who for some reason decided they needed to convince themselves otherwise.
I like Alien3 more than Aliens, but it's not the better movie.
That was a classic thread.
Good times.
Imagine your alternate universe self if Blumpkin's movie had actually been made and Alien 3 got retconned out of canon.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 16, 2019, 12:02:01 AM
Imagine your alternate universe self if Blumpkin's movie had actually been made and Alien 3 got retconned out of canon.
Bad times.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 15, 2019, 04:57:28 AM
'memba this?
Quote from: SiL on Jan 27, 2014, 05:13:16 AM
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Jan 27, 2014, 05:05:19 AMAlien3 is superior.
Except it isn't. It's not a well made film. It's pretty and it sounds nice, but it's a hacked together mess. The only people who refuse to admit it are fans who for some reason decided they needed to convince themselves otherwise.
I like Alien3 more than Aliens, but it's not the better movie.
That was a classic thread.
The personal digs were defo a highlight.
Quote from: SM on Dec 16, 2019, 12:00:04 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 15, 2019, 04:57:28 AM
'memba this?
Quote from: SiL on Jan 27, 2014, 05:13:16 AM
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Jan 27, 2014, 05:05:19 AMAlien3 is superior.
Except it isn't. It's not a well made film. It's pretty and it sounds nice, but it's a hacked together mess. The only people who refuse to admit it are fans who for some reason decided they needed to convince themselves otherwise.
I like Alien3 more than Aliens, but it's not the better movie.
That was a classic thread.
The personal digs were defo a highlight.
Ugly times.
Alien 3 did not kill the franchise but just ruined it and take franchsie to the wrong direction.
Alien 3 is OK as a standalone film. But as a sequel to Aliens? It's terrible! Both theatrical cut and special edition.
It's retrospective destroy Aliens too.
Some Alien 3 fan (that trying too hard to be edgy) say they can't handle the good ending of Aliens. Because Alien universe is cold and dark blah blah blah , So don't expected anything positive about the fate of the characters.
Well f**k that! I tell you what , Alien 3 is the first film in the franchise that have a bad ending. While both Alien and Aliens have a good ending.
Many Alien fan who defend Alien 3 are actually hate it. They lie to themself by saying they like it just to suppress their dissapointment and hatred of the film.
Quote from: Alien Primordial Origin on Dec 17, 2019, 01:27:37 AM
Many Alien fan who defend Alien 3 are actually hate it. They lie to themself by saying they like it just to suppress their dissapointment and hatred of the film.
No they probably like it, since its just a matter of taste. Each fan has their own opinion and views on Alien 3, on how it affected the series and all, either for better or worse.
I'm fine with it. You hate it. Some people love it. Its okay either way.
My statement is the FACT. Because I personally know plenty of Alien fan who hate Alien 3. but they say they like it just to supress their dissapointment of the film. I never refer it to any member of the forum.
And sorry for my bad language. Bacause english is not my first language.
Quote from: Alien Primordial Origin on Dec 17, 2019, 01:54:36 AM
My statement is the FACT. Because I personally know plenty of Alien fan who hate Alien 3. but they say they like it just to supress their dissapointment of the film. I never refer it to any member of the forum.
Your generalisation does refer to everyone on the forum. Let's avoid them. It's not fact, you speak for a small pool of people you happen to know. I can't say I know a single person who defends Alien 3 because they secretly hate it.
Quote from: Alien Primordial Origin on Dec 17, 2019, 01:54:36 AM
My statement is the FACT. Because I personally know plenty of Alien fan who hate Alien 3. but they say they like it just to supress their dissapointment of the film. I never refer it to any member of the forum.
And sorry for my bad language. Bacause english is not my first language.
You're a funny guy, I like you.
Quote from: Alien Primordial Origin on Dec 17, 2019, 01:27:37 AMSome Alien 3 fan (that trying too hard to be edgy) say they can't handle the good ending of Aliens. Because Alien universe is cold and dark blah blah blah , So don't expected anything positive about the fate of the characters.
Well f**k that! I tell you what , Alien 3 is the first film in the franchise that have a bad ending. While both Alien and Aliens have a good ending.
I love that the third film's ending is so bleak. Movies almost always have happy endings, but in reality life is often pretty shitty.
Alien 3 reflects that, and even now it's refreshingly ballsy how it offs its star character.
Not to mention the conclusion manages to be quite uplifting despite being so downbeat.
Quote from: Alien Primordial Origin on Dec 17, 2019, 01:27:37 AMMany Alien fan who defend Alien 3 are actually hate it. They lie to themself by saying they like it just to suppress their dissapointment and hatred of the film.
This made me lol.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 17, 2019, 07:33:57 AM
Quote from: Alien Primordial Origin on Dec 17, 2019, 01:54:36 AM
My statement is the FACT. Because I personally know plenty of Alien fan who hate Alien 3. but they say they like it just to supress their dissapointment of the film. I never refer it to any member of the forum.
Your generalisation does refer to everyone on the forum. Let's avoid them. It's not fact, you speak for a small pool of people you happen to know. I can't say I know a single person who defends Alien 3 because they secretly hate it.
Another in denial.
*sigh* Sit down Hicks. Come, let's explore why you secretly suppress your disappointment with the film.
But first, let's talk about your childhood...
(https://media.tenor.com/images/5ba2b5c825e45dfe275cde121c2dd614/tenor.gif)
Spoiler
;D
Of course Hicks hates 3. Damn, he lost his head in that one .
Quote from: Alien Primordial Origin on Dec 17, 2019, 01:27:37 AM
Some Alien 3 fan (that trying too hard to be edgy) say they can't handle the good ending of Aliens. Because Alien universe is cold and dark blah blah blah , So don't expected anything positive about the fate of the characters.
Well f**k that! I tell you what , Alien 3 is the first film in the franchise that have a bad ending. While both Alien and Aliens have a good ending..
You have a point actually
Yeah, but that's a positive not a negative.
Quote from: Alien Primordial Origin on Dec 17, 2019, 01:27:37 AM
Many Alien fan who defend Alien 3 are actually hate it. They lie to themself by saying they like it just to suppress their dissapointment and hatred of the film.
Personally, A3 is my favourite of the series.
I'd say so also, if Alien didn't exist.
Quote from: Alien Primordial Origin on Dec 17, 2019, 01:27:37 AM
Many Alien fan who defend Alien 3 are actually hate it. They lie to themself by saying they like it just to suppress their dissapointment and hatred of the film.
That's just embarassing statement . " I don't like it so you can't like it. Even if you like it you're just pretending and lying to yourself. That's the FACT ". Ugh
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Dec 17, 2019, 10:42:32 AM
Quote from: Alien Primordial Origin on Dec 17, 2019, 01:27:37 AMSome Alien 3 fan (that trying too hard to be edgy) say they can't handle the good ending of Aliens. Because Alien universe is cold and dark blah blah blah , So don't expected anything positive about the fate of the characters.
Well f**k that! I tell you what , Alien 3 is the first film in the franchise that have a bad ending. While both Alien and Aliens have a good ending.
I love that the third film's ending is so bleak. Movies almost always have happy endings, but in reality life is often pretty shitty. Alien 3 reflects that, and even now it's refreshingly ballsy how it offs its star character.
Not to mention the conclusion manages to be quite uplifting despite being so downbeat.
Quote from: Alien Primordial Origin on Dec 17, 2019, 01:27:37 AMMany Alien fan who defend Alien 3 are actually hate it. They lie to themself by saying they like it just to suppress their dissapointment and hatred of the film.
This made me lol.
100% agree, people around here still bitter that the turd that was going to be Alien 5 from Blomhack never happened, Alien 3 -Assembly Cut- is a masterpiece.
Btw I had a field day reading all the "bUt aLiEnS wAs tHe LaSt oF tHe FrAnChIsE"... my goodness talking about being disconnect from reality.
Quote from: Kradan on Dec 17, 2019, 04:03:09 PM
Quote from: Alien Primordial Origin on Dec 17, 2019, 01:27:37 AM
Many Alien fan who defend Alien 3 are actually hate it. They lie to themself by saying they like it just to suppress their dissapointment and hatred of the film.
That's just embarassing statement . " I don't like it so you can't like it. Even if you like it you're just pretending and lying to yourself. That's the FACT ". Ugh
If you're going to completely misrepresent what someone said, it's best not to quote them.
QuoteAlien 3 -Assembly Cut- is a masterpiece.
lol
Quote from: SM on May 21, 2019, 11:30:01 AM
Many fans deify Alien 3 to a ridiculous extent.
Threads like this are pretty unnecessary in all honesty, as they usually end up devolving into slanging matches (this one doesn't seem to be an exception).
I'm still waiting for my well deserved "oh man! a hyperbole totally ripped into this thread and destroyed everything!" of the day 8)
(https://i.imgur.com/GTOg3dB.gif)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 17, 2019, 07:57:27 PM
Quote from: SM on May 21, 2019, 11:30:01 AM
Many fans deify Alien 3 to a ridiculous extent.
FACT
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 17, 2019, 08:09:40 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Apr 08, 2019, 03:20:25 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 06, 2019, 01:17:20 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 14, 2017, 08:46:43 PM
Anyone who frequents this forum likes to be told the same thing over and over.
Also FACT.
Good Christ what have I done with my life...
(https://i.imgur.com/SR1iUed.gif)
Being a target for trolls must be a complicated profession.
Or doing it yourself.
Yes, I'd say so.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Dec 17, 2019, 09:44:51 PM
Being a target for trolls must be a complicated profession.
Why did I hear Werner Herzog's voice when I read that?
Must...resist...urge...to...*gngh!*...join...flame war thread...*hrgh!*
Why fight it?
There is no fun in resisting.
Au contraire
Quote from: Beatnation on Dec 17, 2019, 04:10:13 PM100% agree, people around here still bitter that the turd that was going to be Alien 5 from Blomhack never happened, Alien 3 -Assembly Cut- is a masterpiece.
Yeah, nah, saying it's a masterpiece is almost as silly as saying people who like it secretly hate it.
It's a decent, occasionally very well-made movie with some glaring flaws. Anyone's personal opinion on it is going to be based on how much they can appreciate the former while overlooking the latter.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 18, 2019, 12:30:12 AM
Why fight it?
Are you a professional enabler or something?
I'd say it's somewhere between good and great, it's far above decent. But it isn't trash and it isn't a masterpiece.
I'm usually just dismissed as annoying.
I feel that's being kind.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 01:50:04 AM
This may come as a surprise to many of you, but...
Spoiler
...some people regard me as a bit of an irritant.
SM once called me an ambulatory mineral. :(
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 20, 2019, 02:40:44 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 01:50:04 AM
This may come as a surprise to many of you, but...
Spoiler
...some people regard me as a bit of an irritant.
SM once called me an ambulatory mineral. :(
Do you need a hug?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 20, 2019, 02:40:44 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 01:50:04 AM
This may come as a surprise to many of you, but...
Spoiler
...some people regard me as a bit of an irritant.
SM once called me an ambulatory mineral. :(
Don't delve on details, you know that you're everyone's sweetheart here at the forums. If it makes you feel better you're definitely my favorite enabler!
That's it. I'm huggin' him.
C'mere big guy!
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 21, 2019, 03:08:26 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 02:53:20 AM
Are you telling me it's not my fault?
No. It's definitely your fault. But apparently they're willing to forgive.
It's a Festivus miracle.
f**k's sake, now I have to watch Seinfeld.
I'll be here for the airing of grievances.
Will you be partaking of the peace weed?
I certainly prefer you over any other enabler on the forum.
Alien 3 is like Giger´s art,people hate or love it.Particularly i love it.
Alien Resurrection...i still don´t know what to think about it....
To me,three movies killed the franchise:
AVP.
Prometheus.
Covenant.
AVP literally killed an Alien movie because Cameron and Scott were supposedly working on one at the time.
Quote from: Dirty Harry on Dec 29, 2019, 01:54:30 PM
To me,three movies killed the franchise:
AVP.
Prometheus.
Covenant.
What about, you know, Requiem ?
AVP and especially Requiem ensured the AVP concept cinematically stayed dead for over ten years now. For the first three Alien films, roughly six years between each of them. And then Resurrection, in 1997 and then Covenant in 2017, twenty years apart! Granted Prometheus exists but it's got no Alien in it. So I'd say Resurrection critically and financially put the series in a coma for twenty years.
Yep.
Because there's roughly six years between Prometheus and Covenant, I can only hope that formula's returned.
Alien will definitely return, I just think sans David.
I agree, after, Ridley Scott's done one last Alien film.
Gladiator 2. Agreed.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Dec 29, 2019, 04:40:30 PM
AVP and especially Requiem ensured the AVP concept cinematically stayed dead for over ten years now. For the first three Alien films, roughly six years between each of them. And then Resurrection, in 1997 and then Covenant in 2017, twenty years apart! Granted Prometheus exists but it's got no Alien in it. So I'd say Resurrection critically and financially put the series in a coma for twenty years.
There was still a large interest in Alien mythology after Avp movies. Prometheus gathered quite an attention. But after Prometheus it doed down and Covenant killed general populations interest for good imo. I also thought it was an awful, tv episode looking movie, and also depleted my interest for quite a long time untill recently
I didn't like the characters wandering off to get killed in Covenant, but liked it much better than Prometheus, which felt like completely arbitrary, sideshow expositional garbage that somehow asked more questions than it answered.
And "large interest" ahaha? No, I lived through it, a drought to be sure. in terms of quality content, Covenant's existence has generated more in twoish years than AVP 2004 did in sixteen, or Prometheus did in eight. The fact Prometheus is abysmal, especially in comparison to it's marketing material, meant no one trusted Covenant enough to see it. For my time, Covenant is the far superior film, an unique take on a remake and sequel to the first science fiction story.
Didnt found any issues with the crew on covenant doing much wandering to get killed, they were afterall colonists, there to travel to a new planet and start building a village and colonialise a planet, not researchers or scientists but average colonists traveling to new home with some armed guards with them for safety, not trained soldiers. So that they do tactical blunders and behave like people with wandering off to be alone and such I have no issues with and their lack of understanding quarantines and for rules, the average person wont either.
Way bigger problems with prometheus in which they are all scientists and the best in their field but behaves like the average joe and no science done at all and doing stupid mistakes and their hired guards wasnt good either plus the movie was boring like hell with not much happening and almost nothing that was dangerous but the humans themself managed to do stupid shit and get killed.
My with them wandering off was they should be so terrified they don't want to.
Fifield and Millburn weren't "wandering off"; they were going back to the ship because they were terrified.
That's far from the film's biggest issue, but it is a symptom of it, the script.
Quote from: SM on Jan 05, 2020, 05:31:59 AM
Fifield and Millburn weren't "wandering off"; they were going back to the ship because they were terrified.
I was referring to the lady that gets decapitated in Covenant, and their feckless leader.
Millburn is a whole other level of stupid lol.
Quote from: razeak on Jan 06, 2020, 01:50:50 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 05, 2020, 05:31:59 AM
Fifield and Millburn weren't "wandering off"; they were going back to the ship because they were terrified.
I was referring to the lady that gets decapitated in Covenant, and their feckless leader.
Millburn is a whole other level of stupid lol.
So then where does Millburn reside on the Dumbcon scale?
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-iX3UC-k9f1k%2FTaGXx8QOZ5I%2FAAAAAAAAEdE%2F9BH5l6wRIAI%2Fs400%2FDumbcon%252BStructure.jpg&hash=b683e0e354c4d4994cf86775dce94fe67ff72ac5)
Dumbcon 1.
"He let's pet the space cobra!"
I'd say the person that went to find water to clean her bite, after being told the place is safe, fairly reasonable.
Nah bruh.
I'd say in that scenario, if no water is available anywhere else and as far as you know the creature exists only because of a previous infection? Yeah, disinfecting that wound is a high priority, even if that means "wandering off" to do so, it's a risk but what other option do you have?
Quote from: Kimarhi on Jan 06, 2020, 07:41:04 PM
Nah bruh.
Didn't they teach you guys not to drink the water or you might get malaria?
"Perfectly safe, I assure you." (The Android that's done nothing so far but save everyone.)
He's also creepy as f*ck.
Seeing a trained security force be so immediately trusting that there's no threat when a bunch of them have already been killed in various horrible and unpredictable ways really dose strike me as a bit dumb.
Although admittedly not as dumb as some of the shit in Prometheus.
As you say, somewhat idiotic, and it's not all of them so not unbelievable.
Android with a rape face who inexplicably has been stranded on an allegedly undiscovered world where monsters explode out of people's bodies and eat their faces? Fudge that dude. I wouldn't touch anything or go anywhere. I wouldn't even use the local water to clean the shit out of my pants lol.
Back to back, rifles ready.
C'mon the weirdest thing David says is "Welcome Brother" before Walter goes to talk to him.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 06, 2020, 06:05:19 PM
I'd say the person that went to find water to clean her bite, after being told the place is safe, fairly reasonable.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 06, 2020, 09:30:57 PM
"Perfectly safe, I assure you." (The Android that's done nothing so far but save everyone.)
Yeah, I'm with you on this criticism of Covenant. We have the benefit of hindsight, and it's certainly somewhat tropey in terms of horror movie, but in-universe David had saved the crew, apparently been living on his own and fine for 10 years, and told them it was safe. There was really no reason for them not to trust him at that point. And I can totally buy someone wanting to have a moment or two to themselves after experiencing what they had.
All that.
If by some chance we all end up on a far flung world, I'm dying after most of you lol.
Maybe its just that in my training you never go alone or leave your partner. I'm not a crack commando by any stretch, but the basic idea of safety in numbers in hostile situations is definitely not on their mind or in their past training. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
"C'mon the weirdest thing David says is "Welcome Brother" before Walter goes to talk to him."
RAPEFACE lol.
Okay fine. I change the sentence to the following: The colonists are stranded on an allegedly undiscovered world where monsters explode out of people's bodies and eat their faces.
Now that I read that again, the hindsight should be that the planet has monsters that explode out of people's bodies and eat their faces.
I'll just chalk it up to fear affecting their decision making abilities.
And David (whose face is the same as Walter's - someone they trust) just rescued them, and led them to safety. There was no longer a threat from the Neomorphs and both Rosey and Oram were armed. They had a perfectly reasonable expectation of safety.
They don't know they're in a monster movie.
David's face is somewhat creepy for sure but not a RAPEFACE .
Yeah, that's not until later.
Quote from: SM on Jan 07, 2020, 11:07:55 PM
And David (whose face is the same as Walter's - someone they trust) just rescued them, and led them to safety.
This too.
QuoteThey don't know they're in a monster movie.
And that.
I get that it's a horror movie trope that never works out for the characters, so it could have been handled a little less stereotypically than the way it was, but in terms of the story it's not a silly decision at all.
Is "crew of Covenant is or isn't dumb" question now just a way to differentiate pro and anti-Covenant fans ?
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 06, 2020, 09:30:57 PM
"Perfectly safe, I assure you." (The Android that's done nothing so far but save everyone.)
Problem is that statement comes after Oram realized David is hiding things, responsible for creating monsters and didn't care about Rosie being dead. Therefor not to be trusted.
They should have left in the moment where David sticks his face over them and nothing happens to reinforce that.
The actual lines are:
Rosenthal - Is it even safe here?
David - Perfectly.
After he just saved them, so no reason not to trust a Weyland Corp android.
There was no reason not to trust David, until the moment he lost his cool.
If oram met the devil before, then he should've had the good sense to pull the trigger.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 08, 2020, 11:10:31 AMProblem is that statement comes after Oram realized David is hiding things, responsible for creating monsters and didn't care about Rosie being dead. Therefor not to be trusted.
This. I take far greater issue with how Oram trusts David around the eggs than how Rosie thinks it's safe to wander off alone.
He was the victim of bad writing.
Quote from: Huggs on Jan 08, 2020, 12:30:56 PM
He was the victim of bad writing.
It's the deadliest thing known in film.
I like the movie. Still think it isn't the wisest decision for either character.
In the case of Rosie I can buy it a lot more than the egg scene. I understand the Rosie argument even if I think it's more complicated than David said it's okay after saving them considering all the unknowns.
How many fellows were the security? 2?
At that point I think we had Lope, Rosie and Cole (had to Google that one).
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2020, 01:03:23 PM
It's the deadliest thing known in film.
Aside from land-sharks.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 08, 2020, 04:16:06 PM
At that point I think we had Lope, Rosie and Cole (had to Google that one).
Cole's death was kind of unique, as I recall. I don't remember many other instances where a xeno was shown killing and mauling the victim with no cutaways, angle changes, etc. Dude bought it right on camera, center frame. It was frightening to see.
Covenant really didn't hold back much.
Rosie was security? Well....I don't want beat a dead horse.
Anyways, Covenant does have some savagery that matches Alien 3. It skirts the line with showing too much, but it pulls it off mostly.
Yes she's security. She shot one of the Neomorphs.
Not sure how that relates to a dead horse.
Quote from: Huggs on Jan 08, 2020, 10:23:26 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 08, 2020, 04:16:06 PM
At that point I think we had Lope, Rosie and Cole (had to Google that one).
Cole's death was kind of unique, as I recall. I don't remember many other instances where a xeno was shown killing and mauling the victim with no cutaways, angle changes, etc. Dude bought it right on camera, center frame. It was frightening to see.
Covenant really didn't hold back much.
Yeah I always enjoyed that scene, one of my favorites.
Quote from: SM on Jan 09, 2020, 12:53:18 AM
Yes she's security. She shot one of the Neomorphs.
Not sure how that relates to a dead horse.
The wandering off discussion
I feel like the cut that was released definitely hurt the franchise, had we gotten something closer to the assembly cut on release I believe it would have done fine. As is I think its a fitting end to the original Ripley's arc, nothing in that universe garners a happy ending, in some way the alien represents the cold inescapable vacuum of space and the last dying breath you can't take as you drift into the empty dark. The happiest ending she could get was dragging a queen burster into the molten lead with her as she lost her life.
What in the assembly would've improved it?
Baptism by SM will now commence...
(https://cinefilesreviews.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/alien-3-movie-review-1992-charles-s-dutton.jpg)
I don't think there is any cut of Alien3 that would have changed the reception the film got back in 1993. I like both cuts of Alien3 but its not the film general audiences were expecting when they sat down in theaters. It's extremely dark in tone and a major downer, it makes 40 miles of bad road look like a fun action romp by comparison. :laugh:
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 11, 2020, 01:05:31 AM
I don't think there is any cut of Alien3 that would have changed the reception the film got back in 1993. I like both buts of Alien3 but its not the film general audiences were expecting when they sat down in theaters. It's extremely dark in tone and a major downer, it makes 40 miles of bad road look like a fun action romp by comparison. :laugh:
:laugh:
I nearly died from that lmao
Lol so did I when I read your post, perfect typo.
He cannot lie.
You otha brothas can´t deny.
I think if reception is your metric for a superior version then like, the Aliens SE, the Alien³ SE, is the best version according to the general public.
I still prefer the theatrical edition of Aliens too.
For myself, Alien Theatrical Edition,
Aliens TE/SE, Alien³ Special Edition.
I always just assumed the eggs were brought with the queen, she seemed aware the whole place was blowing up, might have stowed two eggs with her as she hid on the ship, one of them might have survived the big end conflict after the opened the air lock.
Only one according to the Blu-ray main menu display.