This has baffled me for years...did he retcon Prometheus?
In Prometheus we see the following evidence there were Aliens that were already created
- When the crew find the dead bodies of piled up engineers, their chests were clearly broken out
- There was some sort of 'shrine' to the alien egg, AND, on the wall you clearly saw the ALIEN set up like Jesus on a crucifix
So if David created the Xenos, what did they find in the Prometheus military out post?
Quote from: Mrengineer on Sep 06, 2020, 09:05:22 AM
This has baffled me for years...did he retcon Prometheus?
Kind of. During the making of Covenant I think he had another one of his brain farts and well that happened.
Quote from: Mrengineer on Sep 06, 2020, 09:05:22 AM
This has baffled me for years...did he retcon Prometheus?
In Prometheus we see the following evidence there were Aliens that were already created
- When the crew find the dead bodies of piled up engineers, their chests were clearly broken out
- There was some sort of 'shrine' to the alien egg, AND, on the wall you clearly saw the ALIEN set up like Jesus on a crucifix
So if David created the Xenos, what did they find in the Prometheus military out post?
Because he's old and doesn't know what the f**k he's doing story wise.
The Alien is the black goo
The outbreak on lv-223 were creatures that came about as a result of infection with engineers and black goo
The mural depicts 'alien type creatures' but they are not xenomorphs or facehuggers as we traditionally know
Personally I think the Mural to be a form of portend or mirror. It is when David touches the black goo remarking that it's organic that the ceiling paintings in the room change and the storm kicks off
The Xenomorph with its biomech qualities is being implied to be the result of Davids work
You could always argue that the Aliens had been created already and David just followed the engineers work to recreate them.
Personally I think the Aliens infecting humanoid like creatures because they were created to do so is one of the few things that make sense in the prequels.
The black goo is to Alien what midi-chlorians were to Star Wars. A device used to try to explain something that didn't really require explaining in the first place >:(
I don't really agree - the black goo adds an extra layer of mysteriousness, if anything. Sure, it's a bit of a McGuffin, but I like how they kept it vague in the sense that we don't know where it came from and why it creates all these horrible xenomorph-esque creatures and mutations. I think they did it on purpose to keep the true origin a mystery.
Quote from: son_of_kane on Sep 06, 2020, 03:55:00 PM
The black goo is to Alien what midi-chlorians were to Star Wars. A device used to try to explain something that didn't really require explaining in the first place >:(
The pathogen is the genesis of life on Earth and the raw material that shaped the Alien and all of the various other creatures in
Prometheus and
Covenant but we don't know anything at all about where it came from, if it was found or created by the Engineers, what else it does or the extent of its abilities, etc. The mysterious origin of the Alien has, essentially, been transferred to the pathogen now, and it can be every bit as incomprehensibly Lovecraftian as the viewer wants to read it to be, with David's Alien representing his design while not at all expressing the full limits it holds within.
Quote from: David Weyland on Sep 06, 2020, 01:57:06 PM
The Alien is the black goo
The outbreak on lv-223 were creatures that came about as a result of infection with engineers and black goo
The mural depicts 'alien type creatures' but they are not xenomorphs or facehuggers as we traditionally know
Personally I think the Mural to be a form of portend or mirror. It is when David touches the black goo remarking that it's organic that the ceiling paintings in the room change and the storm kicks off
The Xenomorph with its biomech qualities is being implied to be the result of Davids work
All valid points, however at the mural crucifix we know the alien already had biotech look. The engineers outfits are literally the similar make up to the LV246 Alien. So i always thought the engineer DNA seeded the Alien, as seen at the end of Prometheus.
I think Ridley has gone mad lol
The only things he 'retconned' - for lack of a better word - was the Jockey being a dead skeleton and the Derelict being very old. And since neither of those things are properly established on screen, they're open to being reinterpreted.
Are you at liberty to divulge whether or not they're at least aware that some of Ridley's decisions have been divisive or downright unpopular?
They made Covenant didn't they?
Are they aware that Covenant simply made matters even worse for some?
Who is "they"?
Y'know... Them.
Riddles, Costigan, Huffam, Lindelof, Spaihts, Ellenberg, Giler, Hill, Scheafer, Ireland, Kelly, Paglen, Logan, Harper, Green?
Or someone at Disney?
I'd be surprised if "they" didn't know. I'd also be surprised if "they" gave a shit.
This is why we need you in Hollywood.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Sep 06, 2020, 12:33:25 PM
Quote from: Mrengineer on Sep 06, 2020, 09:05:22 AM
This has baffled me for years...did he retcon Prometheus?
Kind of. During the making of Covenant I think he had another one of his brain farts and well that happened.
Quote from: T Dog on Sep 06, 2020, 01:33:47 PM
Because he's old and doesn't know what the f**k he's doing story wise.
This is a bit uncharitable. It isn't that his brain doesn't work, or that he is somehow inept as a filmmaker or story teller, he cares about creating thought provoking, visually stunning cinema, that's his art form. He works collaboratively with the fellow artists he gathers together for a production and he doesn't have the same slavish devotion or reverence for previous works that we have. His style is somewhat improvisational, subject to change on the whim of inspiration and if something is stunning visually he couldn't give a damn if it is incompatible with something that has come before. This is fundamentally different to the meticulously ordered style that Cameron has for example and its a style that allows a great deal of artistic freedom to the designers he employs.
Look at the Seven Worlds shorts that he did for Hennessy. What is the story logic here? There isn't any, and there doesn't need to be, at least not in anyway that takes precedence over the visual storytelling and the feelings he's trying to evoke. His films relating to Alien, by necessity, need to have a bit more form, but he still operates primarily from a place of Art leading story, and not working within the boundaries established by anyone else's work or even in some cases his own.
It's not that he doesn't know how to create a film, clearly he does, he just doesn't care about making films in the way some of us may like or want, he makes films the way he wants and the studio tries to rein him in for the purposes of their franchise.
Quote from: Evanus on Sep 06, 2020, 03:59:34 PM
I don't really agree - the black goo adds an extra layer of mysteriousness, if anything. Sure, it's a bit of a McGuffin, but I like how they kept it vague in the sense that we don't know where it came from and why it creates all these horrible xenomorph-esque creatures and mutations. I think they did it on purpose to keep the true origin a mystery.
There in lies one of my issues. Its clear that the DNA goo gave birth to life on earth. However, it's clear when mixed in different ways, there are mutations. If the first alien were the creatures that burst out from the Engineers, and who they were running from, the 2nd alien was then the big face hugger from elizabeth shaw. and the 3rd alien was the xeno looking alien that gave birth from the engineer.
That still doesn't connect up to anything in Covenant unless it was David who simply refined the aliens, but Ridley pitched it as David creating the entire species...which he didn't. I heard the 3rd movie was going to be about the Engineers chasing David and the rest of the humans to get revenge. Covnenant to be , whilst an amazing film itself, felt like Ridley was just forgetting Prometheus in most ways
Quote from: SM on Sep 06, 2020, 11:19:41 PM
The only things he 'retconned' - for lack of a better word - was the Jockey being a dead skeleton and the Derelict being very old. And since neither of those things are properly established on screen, they're open to being reinterpreted.
Which Jockey and Derelict are you referring to? The LV223 or LV246? I don't think any of those items were covered in Prometheus or Covenant. I believe they were hundreds of years apart no?
Quote from: SpaceKase on Sep 07, 2020, 02:05:15 AM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Sep 06, 2020, 12:33:25 PM
Quote from: Mrengineer on Sep 06, 2020, 09:05:22 AM
This has baffled me for years...did he retcon Prometheus?
Kind of. During the making of Covenant I think he had another one of his brain farts and well that happened.
Quote from: T Dog on Sep 06, 2020, 01:33:47 PM
Because he's old and doesn't know what the f**k he's doing story wise.
This is a bit uncharitable. It isn't that his brain doesn't work, or that he is somehow inept as a filmmaker or story teller, he cares about creating thought provoking, visually stunning cinema, that's his art form. He works collaboratively with the fellow artists he gathers together for a production and he doesn't have the same slavish devotion or reverence for previous works that we have. His style is somewhat improvisational, subject to change on the whim of inspiration and if something is stunning visually he couldn't give a damn if it is incompatible with something that has come before. This is fundamentally different to the meticulously ordered style that Cameron has for example and its a style that allows a great deal of artistic freedom to the designers he employs.
Look at the Seven Worlds shorts that he did for Hennessy. What is the story logic here? There isn't any, and there doesn't need to be, at least not in anyway that takes precedence over the visual storytelling and the feelings he's trying to evoke. His films relating to Alien, by necessity, need to have a bit more form, but he still operates primarily from a place of Art leading story, and not working within the boundaries established by anyone else's work or even in some cases his own.
It's not that he doesn't know how to create a film, clearly he does, he just doesn't care about making films in the way some of us may like or want, he makes films the way he wants and the studio tries to rein him in for the purposes of their franchise.
In theory, that sounds beeautiful and I love Ridley Scotts visual story telling. However, a story still needs cohesion. Alien is his baby, but one can't go around changing things due to inspiration, it does not help the audience nor the credibility of the story.
Prometheus and Covenant remain one of my favourite films of all time. However, the sheer confusion and change of story line in both movies, doesn't really help the concept of "suspending disbelief". You immediately unsuspend yourself, and start asking questions you shouldn't really be asking. Both movies are amazing...but the stories just don't add up...and the story it self is what makes it terrifying. I'd be keen to see how he ties it all together in the next movie, of which he said he's in planning stages for.
LV-426. Prior to the prequels everyone thought that the Jockey was the skeleton of some extraterrestrial, rather than a guy in a suit (because that's how it was written).
There's 28 years between Prometheus and Alien.
It's time to cut Riddles loose.
Quote from: SM on Sep 07, 2020, 02:57:10 AM
LV-426. Prior to the prequels everyone thought that the Jockey was the skeleton of some extraterrestrial, rather than a guy in a suit (because that's how it was written).
There's 28 years between Prometheus and Alien.
I didn't realise people connected LV426 with the other place. I don't see the connection. What is it?
You're being facetious, surely?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 06, 2020, 11:33:53 PM
Are you at liberty to divulge whether or not they're at least aware that some of Ridley's decisions have been divisive or downright unpopular?
If you mean Fox/Disney, yes they are aware (and they aren't thrilled with the changes themselves) but they're ultimately leaving it up to Ridley to possibly course-correct in the third movie. So it has less to do with whether FOX(Disney) knows/cares (they are), but whether Ridley does.
Honestly, I'm still reluctant to believe that Disney/20th Century Studios has any intention of even giving Ridley a third film. They might be playing along a bit right now, since he's currently working for them on The Last Duel and it is a nice little bargaining for both parties to keep on the cards for the future, but whether anything ever comes out of that is another question entirely.
I don't think the studio has any real desire to tackle Alien at all in the next few years. They didn't even give Walter Hill's concept a look, from what I understand. I bet they are going to let it sit for another five or so years, distance itself from Prometheus and Alien: Covenant, and then bring in a J.J. Abrams-type to do a soft reboot that doesn't knock anything out of continuity, but also doesn't really reference anything beyond Alien and Aliens and ultimately serves as a loose retelling of those two films from a new perspective in the way that The Force Awakens "updated" the story of A New Hope.
Can you imagine Disney hiring J.J Abrams to make the next Alien movie? ;D
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Sep 07, 2020, 07:59:40 PM
Can you imagine Disney hiring J.J Abrams to make the next Alien movie? ;D
Yes. :-[
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/723/336/6c6.gif)
He could bring an old friend from the redemption zone.
(https://i.ibb.co/VgD2J6k/MV5-BNj-E4-Nj-Uz-NTUy-Ml5-BMl5-Ban-Bn-Xk-Ft-ZTcw-ODkx-ODEy-Mw-V1.jpg)
J.J. sells tickets. When you are a mega corporation you look at that shit first.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Sep 07, 2020, 08:09:34 PM
He could bring an old friend from the redemption zone.
https://i.ibb.co/VgD2J6k/MV5-BNj-E4-Nj-Uz-NTUy-Ml5-BMl5-Ban-Bn-Xk-Ft-ZTcw-ODkx-ODEy-Mw-V1.jpg
Lindelof is a bit of an anomaly to me. I haven't really loved a single feature film screenplay he's written, and yet, I am a big fan of
Lost,
The Leftovers, and
Watchmen. Yes, even
Lost's series finale, which didn't do much in the way of answering long-standing questions, but did profoundly deliver on an emotional resolution for the characters.
Watchmen spoilers within:
Spoiler
(https://geekireland.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/prometheus-opening-engineer-sacrifice-iceland-1280x640.jpg)
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/OYV1jCbF6sm7UdVL2qe95pi029k=/1400x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19441828/Europa_s_creation.png)
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Sep 07, 2020, 07:59:40 PM
Can you imagine Disney hiring J.J Abrams to make the next Alien movie? ;D
I could definitely see them hiring Rian Johnson for it.
https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/star-wars-rian-johnson-once-revealed-an-awful-idea-he-had-for-the-last-jedi.html/
Quote from: Mrengineer on Sep 06, 2020, 09:25:21 PM
The engineers outfits are literally the similar make up to the LV246 Alien.
This is truth. I can imagine that David created his praetomorph. But I can't imagine that he somehow "adds" his parts to the praetomorph and the result is Big Chap. Take me right. David can use Engineers for these purposes. Or Engineers can "borrow" praetomorh and improve it. But not Devid "DNA" = biomechanical Alien. This is the same as saying that the Space Jockey is David. Wait, oh sh...
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Sep 07, 2020, 07:59:40 PM
Can you imagine Disney hiring J.J Abrams to make the next Alien movie? ;D
No one needs sexual humour and crude Hollywood nonsense in an Alien movie. So JJ Abrams can JJ his way back to his mansion and not do anything ever again
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Sep 07, 2020, 08:20:06 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Sep 07, 2020, 08:09:34 PM
He could bring an old friend from the redemption zone.
https://i.ibb.co/VgD2J6k/MV5-BNj-E4-Nj-Uz-NTUy-Ml5-BMl5-Ban-Bn-Xk-Ft-ZTcw-ODkx-ODEy-Mw-V1.jpg
Lindelof is a bit of an anomaly to me. I haven't really loved a single feature film screenplay he's written, and yet, I am a big fan of Lost, The Leftovers, and Watchmen. Yes, even Lost's series finale, which didn't do much in the way of answering long-standing questions, but did profoundly deliver on an emotional resolution for the characters.
Watchmen spoilers within:
Spoiler
(https://geekireland.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/prometheus-opening-engineer-sacrifice-iceland-1280x640.jpg)
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/OYV1jCbF6sm7UdVL2qe95pi029k=/1400x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19441828/Europa_s_creation.png)
Lindeldof is a writer but anyone can come up with an amazing story. I feel writers are often overrated because producers and the studio usually ruin their work anyway. Famous writers have out stayed their welcome
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Sep 07, 2020, 07:59:40 PM
Can you imagine Disney hiring J.J Abrams to make the next Alien movie? ;D
I'm can
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/RapidInfantileAndeancockoftherock-size_restricted.gif)
Quote from: Mrengineer on Sep 06, 2020, 09:05:22 AM
This has baffled me for years...did he retcon Prometheus?
In Prometheus we see the following evidence there were Aliens that were already created
- When the crew find the dead bodies of piled up engineers, their chests were clearly broken out
- There was some sort of 'shrine' to the alien egg, AND, on the wall you clearly saw the ALIEN set up like Jesus on a crucifix
So if David created the Xenos, what did they find in the Prometheus military out post?
I think it's very simple.
- Before "Prometheus" Ridley made it very clear that he did not want to bring back the Xenomorph in his prequels.
- In a press interview before "Covenant" Ridley made it clear that he was told that he had to put in the Xenomorph in "Covenant". No fan or group of fans could make Scott do this. It had to be the studio.
;)
Quote from: T Dog on Sep 06, 2020, 01:33:47 PM
Quote from: Mrengineer on Sep 06, 2020, 09:05:22 AM
This has baffled me for years...did he retcon Prometheus?
In Prometheus we see the following evidence there were Aliens that were already created
- When the crew find the dead bodies of piled up engineers, their chests were clearly broken out
- There was some sort of 'shrine' to the alien egg, AND, on the wall you clearly saw the ALIEN set up like Jesus on a crucifix
So if David created the Xenos, what did they find in the Prometheus military out post?
Because he's old and doesn't know what the f**k he's doing story wise.
Sir, I applause !
Nah, because he's old and doesn't give a f**k about what anyone else thinks.
Quote from: Evanus on Dec 03, 2020, 06:53:15 PM
Nah, because he's old and doesn't give a f**k about what anyone else thinks.
Based Ridley dabbing on nerds left and right.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Dec 03, 2020, 07:02:44 PM
Quote from: Evanus on Dec 03, 2020, 06:53:15 PM
Nah, because he's old and doesn't give a f**k about what anyone else thinks.
Based Ridley dabbing on nerds left and right.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/FkyHLz2.jpg)
Quote from: Evanus on Dec 03, 2020, 07:17:20 PM
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Dec 03, 2020, 07:02:44 PM
Quote from: Evanus on Dec 03, 2020, 06:53:15 PM
Nah, because he's old and doesn't give a f**k about what anyone else thinks.
Based Ridley dabbing on nerds left and right.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/FkyHLz2.jpg)
:D
Quote from: Evanus on Dec 03, 2020, 06:53:15 PM
Nah, because he's old and doesn't give a f**k about what anyone else thinks.
And that's why I love him so much. :-*
Well he not only gave us f**king Aliens, but also f**king Space Jockeys ;D
And f**king androids (or was it androids f**king?) too!
:laugh:
He's losing his mind.
I'd say Riddles make people lose their minds ;D
(https://i.imgflip.com/1x6tt6.jpg)
Quote from: Phobos on Dec 04, 2020, 03:42:09 AM
https://i.imgflip.com/1x6tt6.jpg
(https://i.imgur.com/K0lbs.png)
◀Humans are Space Jockey's replicants▶
~More Engineer than Engineer~(ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Dec 04, 2020, 02:02:34 AM
(or was it androids f**king?)
We can only hope
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Dec 04, 2020, 05:08:36 AM
◀Humans are Space Jockey's replicants▶
~More Engineer than Engineer~(ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧
Congrats you understood Prometheus
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Dec 04, 2020, 02:02:34 AM
And f**king androids (or was it androids f**king?) too!
Androids don't f**k. They just get repressed and make dickmonsters instead.
Well, yes. Obviously
Quote from: Stitch on Dec 04, 2020, 08:37:38 AM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Dec 04, 2020, 02:02:34 AM
And f**king androids (or was it androids f**king?) too!
Androids don't f**k. They just get repressed and make dickmonsters instead.
I would have liked that cyberpunkish Pinocchio.
Quote from: Stitch on Dec 04, 2020, 08:37:38 AM
They just get repressed and make dickmonsters instead.
Because they don't f**k.
Nah, David f**ks.
(https://www.iamag.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Making-of-Alien-Covenant-Flashback-Sequence-1.jpg)
But David is not unf**kwitable, isnt he? :laugh:
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Dec 04, 2020, 02:32:12 PM
Nah, David f**ks.
(https://www.iamag.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Making-of-Alien-Covenant-Flashback-Sequence-1.jpg)
Not with what he wanted to.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Dec 04, 2020, 02:45:41 PM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Dec 04, 2020, 02:32:12 PM
Nah, David f**ks.
(https://www.iamag.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Making-of-Alien-Covenant-Flashback-Sequence-1.jpg)
Not with what he wanted to.
(https://www.clotureclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/gypy0orei6utlaz5eoez.gif)
Talk about overcompensating for something.