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Posted by Eidotemit
 - Feb 01, 2007, 12:16:50 AM
I know that they clearly have the smae sort of hands, I was deffending that point.

and in alien and A3 the pointer and middle were together, and the ring and pinky were aswell, since they were seemingly coinjoined together (even when their fingers were sread those couples were always together)
Posted by SM
 - Feb 01, 2007, 12:10:52 AM
Quote...no. What are you getting at with that?

You were talking about Aliens with hoofs and paws, when the Alien bred from a four legged animal clearly has the same sort of hands as the Nostromo creature.

Quotebut since if you count each conjoined finger as a single digit, each alien from each film has four fingers, so I say canonically they have four fingers to avoid that little plot-hole

Thing is, the four fingers are often NOT joined into two in both Alien and Alien3.
Posted by Eidotemit
 - Jan 31, 2007, 11:49:10 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 31, 2007, 12:02:09 AM

QuoteAlso if it were to have hoofed feet, why would it also not have paw like feet?

Do humans have four thumbs?

...no. What are you getting at with that? I was saying that the aliens have certain characteristics that no matter what the host will come through. Head shape, the tail, hand configuration (ya, I know they were different in all the movies except A:R and AvP, and Alien and A3. I prefer the Alien A3 design, but since if you count each conjoined finger as a single digit, each alien from each film has four fingers, so I say canonically they have four fingers to avoid that little plot-hole) behavior, etc.

The runner was diffferent, in part because of the host obviously, regardless of weather it was ox or dog. Im saying it could be because it was a different type aswell, from the queen facehugger in order to protect the queen and get things ready for it. It was faster than wat we've seen before, and moved differenty, but was the all-fours because of the ox or dog? The Aliens in other films also crawl on all fours, even hang upside down and move and get in positions (aside from crawling on celings and walls) that are unatural and impossible for humans. The Dragon was also seen on hind legs going bi-pedal from time to time aswell.

The human born aliens had dorsal spikes. Im going under the impression that they were for balance, for reasons disscussed in the thread concerning them. Nothing in humans would justify those, so its something that the alien was going to have regardless of host. The runner didn't, because being on all four primarily, it didn't need them. I adressed however that it may not have been the host that made it go on all fours. The Human born aliens were very apt at moving on all fours, so if an alien came out that way because thats how the host moved, doesnt seem nesissary. So perhaps it was because this special type of alien to clear the way for the queen, gather host, and protect the queens host, was this way because it needed to move faster to be able to effectivly do all this by itself.
Posted by Meathead320
 - Jan 31, 2007, 02:33:34 AM
What I meant by, not ruin the franchise, is that it did not add to or take away from the alien lifecycle, that can never be repaired.

It did not blatantly take away from the alien itself what made us fans love it in the first place.

Money wise it is a good thing for Europe and Japan.
Posted by SM
 - Jan 31, 2007, 02:07:24 AM
The domestic box office and critical response would suggest otherwise.

If not for Europe and Japan it would've been a complete dud.
Posted by Meathead320
 - Jan 31, 2007, 01:48:24 AM
Man, A3 is quite the pickle.

Viewing the "making of" makes me very happy we got a movie that did not ruin the franchise.

Posted by SM
 - Jan 31, 2007, 01:37:54 AM
No he filmed it to show a cougar like Alien that was fast and got around on all fours.  He wasn't overly fussed what it came from as far as I know.  He would've preferred the ox but it didn't work out that way, and he eventually accepted the dog.  The change to Spike came very late in the piece and the Alien design by ADI and Giger wasn't conceived to have come from a dog - it was always intended to come from an ox.

The actual scene of it bursting out of Spike was filmed very late.   Probably after the LA reshoot around the same time they reshot Ripley's dive into the furnace, some weeks before release.
Posted by Meathead320
 - Jan 31, 2007, 01:29:33 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 31, 2007, 01:23:05 AM
QuoteSo Fincher considers the theatrical version to be cannon, that is just one more reason for it to be so.

Never heard anyone connected with the films use the word 'canon', but in terms of what the Alien came out of, the Workprint that Fincher worked on had Spike.  Fincher had no hand in assembling the SE that had Babe the Ox.

So in other words, Fincher filmed the movie to show a "dog breed" (or whatever else you want to call it) alien?

I always figured it was a dog hosted alien. I love the SE, but the host was always a dog to me, ever since I saw A3 in theatres.
Posted by SM
 - Jan 31, 2007, 01:23:05 AM
QuoteSo Fincher considers the theatrical version to be cannon, that is just one more reason for it to be so.

Never heard anyone connected with the films use the word 'canon', but in terms of what the Alien came out of, the Workprint that Fincher worked on had Spike.  Fincher had no hand in assembling the SE that had Babe the Ox.
Posted by Meathead320
 - Jan 31, 2007, 01:19:28 AM
So Fincher considers the theatrical version to be cannon, that is just one more reason for it to be so.

Even though I too like the SE better. But the DNA assimilation does make more sense that the A3 Alien was a dog hosted alien.

I have a feeling that the Pred-Alien in AVP2 will support this notion.

Assuming the theatrical version of A3 is cannon, then I assume size and general preferred locomotion are a given. Aliens hosted by Predators resulting with mandibles is also now known

Like I said earlier; there may be no absolute pattern to the way the aliens assimilate DNA for all host species.

Maybe there is a "set in stone" pattern for a particular species of host, but a new species of host may get you an unpredictable result; when comparing its result to other, already known, host breeds.
Posted by SM
 - Jan 31, 2007, 12:02:09 AM
QuoteAnother reason I count the SE as canon, is every other SE is taken as such, why not A3.

In my experience the only SE usually taken as canon is Aliens.  The rest are all over the place as to what people regard as canon.  Also the directors of Alien, Aliens and Resurrection (and JPJ has stated his SE is not a directors cut and that the theatrical version is the directors cut; Scott said the same for close on 2 decades as well) all had a hand in putting their SE's or DC's together.  Fincher had nothing to do with Alien3s and in fact his Workprint ditches Babe in favour of Spike.

QuoteAlso if it were to have hoofed feet, why would it also not have paw like feet?

Do humans have four thumbs?
Posted by Eidotemit
 - Jan 30, 2007, 11:52:25 PM
This is what I made this originally to support just how much the alien takes from the host. If it was an ox, it would have had hoofed feet, or horns. Also if it were to have hoofed feet, why would it also not have paw like feet? That it was a roty, it made it more vicious. It possible, but first I dont support that the host has weigt on the mentality and furiocity of the alien, at their core they are the same. If the ox was the host it would havehad horns, but horns are the same type of thing s hair biologically, so it shoud have had fur if it were from a dog in this case.

Another reason I count the SE as canon, is every other SE is taken as such, why not A3. Its built into the minds of people that The Dragon was a dog alien, because its been called that for so long and the SE was only released recently.

My basic point is that aliens at their core are the same as other aliens, and have characteristics that will be shared by other aliens regardless of the host that bore them. Im not disputing that they do take from the host, as that is very very very clear, just the degree of which it affects them.
Posted by SM
 - Jan 30, 2007, 11:40:46 PM
QuoteI think that the reason Fincher wanted to switch the Ox bursting scene with the Rottweiler, is that the end resulted adult alien resembled a dog far more than an ox. Not to mention the size.

It was down to the ox burster scene being sub par as detailed on the Quad DVDs.  Fincher contradicts himself over the issue of Spike - has has mocked the suggestion "Oh I know!  Let's make it come out of a dog!" and also supported it saying it helped explain the Alien's extra viciousness.  There was some resistance in some quarters due to similarities with The Thing.
Posted by Meathead320
 - Jan 30, 2007, 11:30:31 PM
As much as I really love the SE of A3, I have to consider the theatrical version cannon, because that is the one that most people who have seen the movie remember.

If I called any one I know who is not as big of an alien fan as I, who has seen the movie, and if I ask them what was the host of the A3 alien, they would say "a dog".

Actually they would say "I thought you were a big fan of those movies, should you already know, it was a DOG".

I think that the reason Fincher wanted to switch the Ox bursting scene with the Rottweiler, is that the end resulted adult alien resembled a dog far more than an ox. Not to mention the size.

Assuming it did use an OX for a host, I would have expected maybe hoofed hind feet, and possible horns coming out of the sides of a comparatively even longer head, an even longer tail, longer jaws, a scary ass sort of a "Minotaur alien".

The Leadworks would have been its Labyrinth. Man if they would have had the bidget to do that!

If done with a bit of class I think that would have been cool as all hell.

They would still have to be respectful of the design enough for it to have looked alien, and not having picked up more bovine traits than a human hosted one gets human traits.

I would NOT want it to look like a carbon copy of the Hasbro Bull alien. More of a reworking of the same concept though. That thing looked dumb (just my opinion) because no thought was put into its design.

I mean if a dog hosted alien can walk bipedal than so should a Ox hosted one. It should at least have front "hands" like a normal alien, as regular alien hands don't really look all that human. The tail should be even longer, as an ox has a lot more of a tail than a human has.

The thing could have been almost as big as the A2 Queen (NOT T-Rex sized Queen like in AVP), but faster and more flexible/agile.

That is what I would expect from an OX.
Posted by Eidotemit
 - Jan 30, 2007, 11:22:01 PM
It makes more sense if you dont subscribe to my theory  ;D

but ya, as long as they dont change too much I think I could keep it reasonable, but I doubt it. I've already preped myself to see some freak alien with dreads, and a more rotund head and whatever else.

Im betting htough, it will bury this theory o' mine
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