Prometheus 2 set for March 4th 2016

[Xhan]

The logic, or lack of logic, is borne out in the actual film... they all died because they were not equipped or experienced enough to deal with the situation.

No, they all died because the person who was planted on the ship by the Company to ensure a specimen was returned overruled the person currently in charge of the ship and violated basic quarantine procedure. Ripley was doing exactly what they should have in that situation under normal circumstances; forced them to stay the hell out of the ship for 24 hours. They had procedures in place to deal with these situations and the Company actively sought to circumvent them for their own gain.

Come to think of it, had someone actually listened to Parker when he shouting, "Why don't you freeze him?", all their problems would've been prevented

Rule three of headbite club is "ignore the back dude's insanely competent advice"

[ChrisPachi]

Rule three of headbite club is "ignore the back dude's insanely competent advice"

Rule four of headbite club is "after ignoring the black dude's advice, take the black dude's advice".

[DoomRulz]

The logic, or lack of logic, is borne out in the actual film... they all died because they were not equipped or experienced enough to deal with the situation.

No, they all died because the person who was planted on the ship by the Company to ensure a specimen was returned overruled the person currently in charge of the ship and violated basic quarantine procedure. Ripley was doing exactly what they should have in that situation under normal circumstances; forced them to stay the hell out of the ship for 24 hours. They had procedures in place to deal with these situations and the Company actively sought to circumvent them for their own gain.

Come to think of it, had someone actually listened to Parker when he shouting, "Why don't you freeze him?", all their problems would've been prevented

Rule three of headbite club is "ignore the back dude's insanely competent advice"

Haha, yup. Dat story advancement...

[Darth Vile]

Yes they were.  They're contractually obliged to investigate transmissions indicating intelligent origin and have quarantine procedures.  Ash and Dallas just circumvented them.
Then the quarantine procedures are nil and void if the most senior person on the ship chooses to "circumvent them".

That just makes him human.  An attempt at atonement.

You're projecting... Besides – are you now stating that characters making stupid decisions/mistakes makes them more "human"? Yep – I'd agree... and I apply that principle to other films too, where applicable.

Then you're simply more interested in your own opinions than the reality of the story.  Company obtains transmission (how may soon become clearer), deciphers it, reprogram the next ship going near that area of space to make it look like the ship picked it up by accident just in case there's anything of value, puts minder on board in the form of Ash.

That's an odd reply? You stated something like "the filmmakers should expect audiences to listen to the dialogue" and then proceeded to quote from a script with dialogue not used in the film. I was trying to politely point out that you were using inaccurate quotes...

I'd also ask where in the film it's stated that the Nostromo wasn't rerouted when it picked up the alien transmissions??? That is not only not stated, it's not even implied. What would make more sense is that the Nostromo picked up the transmissions, rereouted and woke up the crew (that's what the actual film implies). Ash being a company man, and android, then communicated with 'the company' and they gave him his special order. However, this then creates the gap about why Ash was on board in the first place.

The problem with your explanation is you're forced to concoct a conspiracy theory involving the company... 'they already new about the alien transmissions'... to explain the shortfalls in logic. Perhaps that explanaition is better than what's in the actual film... but it's the actual film we're debating. 

They wouldn't corner it, they'd open the door.

Again it's an assumption on your part. The door was closed. Who knows what the alien would have done without an immediate point of escape. Perhaps it would have died of fright; perhaps it would have ripped their throats out. Who knows??? I'm simply stating that we can only guess at what would have happened if the alien burst out of Kane in the airlock ... whereas you seem to think it's a given...

He's following his contractual obligation under threat of he and his entire crew forfeiting all of their money. Again context.
Just paraphrasing dialogue ad infinitum doesn't make it any more believable that space truckers would be contractually obliged to check out alien transmissions... especially when they are shown to be clearly working outside of their capabilities. That dialogue doesn't really provide the 'context' of which you speak. Context still has to reflect internal logic (the internal logic of a lifeboat that doesn't even accommodate 50% of the crew???). Context is, for example, the scenes showing Lambert as an emotionally wrung out person prior to her death scene. The 'context' explains her irrational behaviour of looking like a rabbit caught in headlights when confronted by the alien... not wanting to show you how to suck eggs by the way.

Leaving the third officer and engineering staff aboard the ship to have it still flight capable.

I'm not sure that's the point is it??? For all we know everyone had the ability to pilot the ship. The point is that I don't believe it would be normal behaviour, nor sensible, to take your 2 most experienced officers away from the ship. That's not standard maritime behaviour, why should it be standard in space?

A child would want to get the icky space monster cut off their friend's face as quickly as possible so it didn't hurt them. As would most compassionate people.

No... I think most people would recognise that if there's something outside that could jeopardise the entire ship and crew... you'd leave it outside until you believed it safe. That the 3rd officer respected this, and that she survived, just shows how stupid/incompetent Dallas was.

Everything he did can be explained in terms of character. He's consistent the whole way through: He cares about his crew to the point he f**ks up, he won't let them endanger themselves later, he goes alone into the vent to atone. On top of that, arguably the "dumbest" thing he did -- get Kane back on the ship -- is exactly what most people would try to do in that situation. If it hadn't been for Ash opening the door, Ripley would've done her job and kept them out.

Yes – consistent like Fifield and Milburn. Dallas doesn't make one sensible choice or decision in the entire film? Even with Ash opening the airlock, Dallas should have said "no we still need to follow quarantine procedures". His direct actions, his failure to follow protocol, resulted in the deaths of the crew. Yes – this can be explained by stating he wasn't very good. Maybe he was an inexperienced captain? But you're excusing his actions just like you accuse others of excusing Ffierld and Milburn's. That doesn't seem a consistent critique on your part... and sometimes it can be harder to critique the films we like... wouldn't you say?

To which the response is "yes", demonstrating how much it doesn't matter what you think when the film points out you're wrong.

The contention isn't about what the implication or inference is, but rather about the logic of it... I thought that was part of your beef with Prometheus? Is 'if it's in the movie then its ok' a suitable defence for every such gripe now?

[SM]

Then the quarantine procedures are nil and void if the most senior person on the ship chooses to "circumvent them".

Ripley was senior officer, and she chose to abide by them.

You're projecting... Besides – are you now stating that characters making stupid decisions/mistakes makes them more "human"? Yep – I'd agree... and I apply that principle to other films too, where applicable.

Sure, if you want to cherry pick and ignore context.  Go right ahead.

You stated something like "the filmmakers should expect audiences to listen to the dialogue" and then proceeded to quote from a script with dialogue not used in the film.

Nope.

I'd also ask where in the film it's stated that the Nostromo wasn't rerouted when it picked up the alien transmissions??? That is not only not stated, it's not even implied. What would make more sense is that the Nostromo picked up the transmissions, rereouted and woke up the crew (that's what the actual film implies). Ash being a company man, and android, then communicated with 'the company' and they gave him his special order. However, this then creates the gap about why Ash was on board in the first place.

The problem with your explanation is you're forced to concoct a conspiracy theory involving the company... 'they already new about the alien transmissions'... to explain the shortfalls in logic. Perhaps that explanaition is better than what's in the actual film... but it's the actual film we're debating.

Nope.  The actual film has the Special Order that says 'Nostromo re-routed [past tense] to new co-ordinates'.  The Company knew about the transmission and put Ash on board to ensure anything of value was returned - even if it killed the crew.  Ripley repeats this at the enquiry in Aliens.  "We set down there on Company orders".  The crew just thought Mother picked the signal up by accident, meaning they were obliged to check it out as per their contract.

[Darth Vile]

Ripley was senior officer, and she chose to abide by them.

And your point being?

Sure, if you want to cherry pick and ignore context.  Go right ahead.

Again I'm not sure as to the point that you're making. That 'context' can apply to anything and everything within a given film? Because that's not my notion of 'context' within a story or film.

Nope.

Ok – whatever.

Nope.  The actual film has the Special Order that says 'Nostromo re-routed [past tense] to new co-ordinates'.  The Company knew about the transmission and put Ash on board to ensure anything of value was returned - even if it killed the crew.  Ripley repeats this at the enquiry in Aliens.  "We set down there on Company orders".  The crew just thought Mother picked the signal up by accident, meaning they were obliged to check it out as per their contract.

The Nostromo being "rerouted" is the correct use of the verb ... "rerouted" as in an action that took place in the past, as opposed to 'rerouting' an action taking place in the present or future tense. The use of the correct verb has absolutely nothing to do with whether the ship was rerouted before or after the Nostromo picked up the alien transmission. If, as you're trying to state, that the crew were actually rerouted prior to the transmission then why didn't any of the navigation crew question the original coordinates they received the transmission from? Surely someone would have said "where and when did we pick this transmission up?". This would have told them that something was wrong. Namely... that they were rerouted illegally? And then why would it be easier to get a trained medical android out to some backwater service station in space, to board the Nostromo, rather than send out a proper expedition? Why not just send Ash? Can't ships be piloted by a single android in the future? Again, the question is a rhetorical one because the narrative shouldn't require the viewer to make up their own explanations to counter the logic gaps e.g. "oh the company always knew about the signal and they just wilfully and purposely sent a random ship of ill prepared/ill equipped space truckers, because they thought it better to do it surreptitiously and risk coming away with nothing, rather than to generate unwanted attention from industrial competitors by sending an appropriate ship containing crew of scientists" etc. etc. 

[Kimarhi]

They weren't rerouted illegally.  ITS IN THEIR MOTHERf**kING CONTRACT.  They didn't have to set down on the planet if they didn't want to.  But they wouldn't have made any money either.


They sent the Nostromo because it was the closest company vessel in the area.  It takes 10 months to get to Acheron from Earth.  Had they bothered to put together another billion dollar company research mission like Prometheus, some other company with its truckersmustinvestigatestrangetransmissions clause might jump the area they were trying to search. 

Outside information certainly helps fill in the logic gaps for stories that last days but are told in hours.  I would be curious to understand how Shaw/whats his face found out about an alien solar system by a cave drawing in an infinite universe.  I mean those cavemen painting for the engineer had to get those measurements exactly right for scientist hundreds of years in the future to get exact mathematical measurements for navigation........

Every movie has logic gaps. 

[SM]

And your point being?

My point was countering your erroneous point about the senior officer wanting to countermand quarantine.

Again I'm not sure as to the point that you're making. That 'context' can apply to anything and everything within a given film? Because that's not my notion of 'context' within a story or film.

The point is nothing exists in a bubble.  Actions have repurcussions and influence future actions.  Dallas is way more realistic - evne with the mistakes he makes, than Milburn who runs a mile from dead bodies (wouldn't a biologist be a little bit interested?), but make goo-goo eyes and new alien lifeforms (and the hammerpede scene doesn't even bug my in the slightest - but I can see why people would criticise it).

. If, as you're trying to state, that the crew were actually rerouted prior to the transmission then why didn't any of the navigation crew question the original coordinates they received the transmission from? Surely someone would have said "where and when did we pick this transmission up?". This would have told them that something was wrong. Namely... that they were rerouted illegally?

Why would anyone suspect that?  Dallas interrogated Mother - she said she'd picked up a transmission and got them up to check it out.  "He just runs the ship". Was he supposed to be omnipotent or something?

And then why would it be easier to get a trained medical android out to some backwater service station in space, to board the Nostromo, rather than send out a proper expedition?

Simple answer is that Ash was already at Thedus.  Why try and make up stuff to complicate things?

Why not just send Ash? Can't ships be piloted by a single android in the future

Same reason they didn't send a specific expedition.  Cost/ potential security implications.

Again, the question is a rhetorical one because the narrative shouldn't require the viewer to make up their own explanations to counter the logic gaps e.g. "oh the company always knew about the signal and they just wilfully and purposely sent a random ship of ill prepared/ill equipped space truckers, because they thought it better to do it surreptitiously and risk coming away with nothing, rather than to generate unwanted attention from industrial competitors by sending an appropriate ship containing crew of scientists" etc. etc. 

You'd have a point if this was in fact, the case.

However it's not.  Anyone paying attention is perfectly capable of joining the dots.  It's really very straightforward.  And is reinforced by the events in Aliens and Alien3.  Again, I don't know why anyone would want to try and complicate something to frightfully simple.

[SiL]

Ripley was senior officer, and she chose to abide by them.

And your point being?

Dallas' seniority didn't count for jack while he was in the lock. The person whose seniority did matter followed protocol. What Dallas ordered was irrelevant because he wasn't in charge.

Again it's an assumption on your part. The door was closed. Who knows what the alien would have done without an immediate point of escape. Perhaps it would have died of fright; perhaps it would have ripped their throats out. Who knows??? I'm simply stating that we can only guess at what would have happened if the alien burst out of Kane in the airlock ... whereas you seem to think it's a given...

Uh, you're the one who was saying it was such a certainty that the thing would attack and kill them that it rendered the quarantine procedure moot.

Just paraphrasing dialogue ad infinitum doesn't make it any more believable that space truckers would be contractually obliged to check out alien transmissions...especially when they are shown to be clearly working outside of their capabilities. That dialogue doesn't really provide the 'context' of which you speak. Context still has to reflect internal logic (the internal logic of a lifeboat that doesn't even accommodate 50% of the crew???). Context is, for example, the scenes showing Lambert as an emotionally wrung out person prior to her death scene. The 'context' explains her irrational behaviour of looking like a rabbit caught in headlights when confronted by the alien...

How about we look back at the point you made that I was actually responding to. You said Dallas was stupid/incompetent because:

1) He accepts a mission to a hostile environment not even questioning why they should be taking part in it or asking himself if they are capable.

He doesn't have a choice. The end. If he doesn't go, the Company withholds all of their money, and everyone likely loses their job for breaching their contract. He'd be stupid to ignore the order.

No... I think most people would recognise that if there's something outside that could jeopardise the entire ship and crew... you'd leave it outside until you believed it safe.

Horseshit. If your friend had a face-sucking alien strapped to his face you wouldn't stand outside a hospital saying "Yeah, no, it's cool, we'll just let him rape you until your procedures say you can try to save his life". If someone you were responsible for was in a car accident and you were told you couldn't call for an ambulance for at least a day afterwards, would you listen? Not unless you're a completely heartless arsehole. Which Dallas wasn't.

Can't ships be piloted by a single android in the future

By Aliens, yes. By Alien, no, they're still being run by full crews.

[Lemonade]

This when argument should stop. It's clogging up space and no one reads the posts except for the participants.

[SM]

No one else is contributing anything relevant to the topic, so it's not really clogging up anything.

[Kimarhi]

I cannot take a lemonade nic serious.

[SM]

...that cool refreshing drink.

[Kimarhi]

If a lemonade told me to do something I'd be like, why don't you go jump in a glass with ice and make yourself useful while I mow the yard.

[chrisr232007]

If a lemonade told me to do something I'd be like, why don't you go jump in a glass with ice and make yourself useful while I mow the yard.