Poll
Question:
Which movie is better?
Option 1: Aliens
votes: 33
Option 2: Alien 3
votes: 8
Hey fellow sci-fi aficionados!
I've been on a Ridley Scott and James Cameron marathon lately, revisiting the iconic "Alien" franchise, and I've hit a bit of a snag. I just finished watching "Aliens" and "Alien 3," and I'm curious about the community's take on these two.
It's no secret that "Aliens," directed by Cameron, is often celebrated for its intense action and the depth it adds to the Alien universe. Cameron's expansion on Scott's horror-centric original has made it a standout sequel that many consider equal to, if not better than, the first.
On the flip side, we have "Alien 3," which seems to have garnered a less enthusiastic response, to put it mildly. It's often pegged as the black sheep of the series, with fans and critics alike viewing it as a step down from the lofty heights reached by its predecessor.
So, what's the verdict? Does "Aliens" hold the championship belt for combining horror and action into a seamless experience? Or is there a case to be made for "Alien 3," perhaps as an underrated gem that deserves a reevaluation?
I'm eager to hear your thoughts, insights, and personal rankings. Is "Aliens" the definitive experience, or does "Alien 3" have its own merits that might be overshadowed by its reputation?
Let the interstellar debate begin!
Best,
ChatGPT
I'm not feeling well.
Tied vote. :laugh:
Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 04, 2023, 07:07:11 PMHey fellow sci-fi aficionados!
I've been on a Ridley Scott and James Cameron marathon lately, revisiting the iconic "Alien" franchise, and I've hit a bit of a snag. I just finished watching "Aliens" and "Alien 3," and I'm curious about the community's take on these two.
It's no secret that "Aliens," directed by Cameron, is often celebrated for its intense action and the depth it adds to the Alien universe. Cameron's expansion on Scott's horror-centric original has made it a standout sequel that many consider equal to, if not better than, the first.
On the flip side, we have "Alien 3," which seems to have garnered a less enthusiastic response, to put it mildly. It's often pegged as the black sheep of the series, with fans and critics alike viewing it as a step down from the lofty heights reached by its predecessor.
So, what's the verdict? Does "Aliens" hold the championship belt for combining horror and action into a seamless experience? Or is there a case to be made for "Alien 3," perhaps as an underrated gem that deserves a reevaluation?
I'm eager to hear your thoughts, insights, and personal rankings. Is "Aliens" the definitive experience, or does "Alien 3" have its own merits that might be overshadowed by its reputation?
Let the interstellar debate begin!
Best,
ChatGPT
Alien 3 has the actual. It has the moment of life flashing before one's eyes. Aliens, though a moment to moment film, is the irony of not being an ally of Alien 3.
They can't be compared to each other because they use different subgenres, and they need to because they can't repeat what happened in the previous movie.
The first movie uses horror based on suspense: the creature appears fully only at the end.
The second movie could not repeat that for obvious reasons so it uses action, and involving more than one alien.
The third movie couldn't do both so it uses a procedural--how to capture and kill the creature--with one subplot likely intended to end the franchise.
Similar happened to the fourth movie, which pits several human groups against each other amidst multiple aliens, with political intrigue as a context.
Also, the prequels, which have cosmology as a pretext and then rehash stories, appearances, etc., from the previous movies to reboot the franchise, i.e., given the assumption that most young viewers had never seen the older movies, then they can focus on these while franchise owners can also re-imagine, remake, etc., the older movies.
Meanwhile, the new movie might use teens with drama, etc., and the TV show focusing on human groups contending with each other while facing AI, both bioweapons and mechs, and the aliens serving as a background.
Of course they can be compared. One is well constructed with one dude calling the shots and the other was made by committee and suffers for it.
Alien 3 is an under-appreciated masterpiece that somehow went through so much turmoil/production issues, is disowned by its own director, and yet still easily takes trophy as second best movie in the franchise after 'Alien' (imo). It's like if DaVinci took over someone else's painting half way, someone spilled paint all over it, and it still ends up being one of the finest art pieces ever created, yet somehow doesn't catch the eye of the masses, being revered only by those who truly take in its magnificence whilst acknowledging its flaws but accepting that it's no less great because of them.
Aliens is absolutely fantastic, and one of my most watched movies of all time, but makes the alien feel less threatening by portraying them as mindless drones, which is why the movie takes 3rd place after Alien and Alien 3 for me personally.
One is a good movie I enjoy. One is a messy film I enjoy.
I don't know how I should vote. Alien 3 is my favourite of the series, but Aliens is a better film.
This thread, Local Trouble - you finally did it!
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Nov 05, 2023, 12:09:21 AMone of the finest art pieces ever created, yet somehow doesn't catch the eye of the masses,
Because it is but no stretch one of the finest pieces of art ever created.
Quote from: thomasmariel33 on Nov 04, 2023, 10:42:27 PMAlien 3 has the actual. It has the moment of life flashing before one's eyes. Aliens, though a moment to moment film, is the irony of not being an ally of Alien 3.
You're not even trying to make sense anymore.
Quote from: S.E.B. on Nov 05, 2023, 02:12:15 AMThis thread, Local Trouble - you finally did it!
Is this you right now?
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/bSdkuLDnrYheE/giphy.gif)
Is Alien³ more messy than good?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EY4IZ09XkAA7Qna.jpg)
No it is literally everyone else in existence, (for the most part) who is wrong, but mostly unironically.
I've actually come to appreciate Alien 3 but I would like to have seen what it could have been if it didn't have such a messy preproduction and clearer direction. Either way it is not a bad film, just not the route I preferred but what does that matter.
Alien 3 is not by any measure a masterpiece, under appreciated or appreciated or any other kind of reciated.
Quote from: SM on Nov 05, 2023, 03:27:05 AMAlien 3 is not by any measure a masterpiece, under appreciated or appreciated or any other kind of reciated.
Perhaps you're overlooking Alien 3's secret weapon.
if only they included the eggmorphing they initially intended to. and if somehow (like in resurrection a clone version or in someway a ripley that
had all the biological strengths of the alien) emerged from perhaps that eggmorphing process then "ripley" finally got some reward for all her troubles and wy the bio weapen they so desired. that would have finished the story arc for me. perhaps wiilingly letting newt s dead body also be eggmorphed or something and hicks......
Neither can touch the original - that's my vote.
That's not an option, and it's accounted for in the question.
Aliens is a better and more fulfilling movie.
You need to compromise to get the most out of Alien 3.
Aliens is the better film but I find myself revisiting Alien 3 much more often.
Aliens is better and has aged better as well.
Has anyone seen the alternate cut of Alien 3? Not the Assembly Cut, the Burke wasn't working alone Cut. We were made to assume Burke had died on Hadley's Hope but he actually boards the Dropship the same time as the Queen. He's actually working with the Queen hence why he isn't working alone! He's also responsible for those eggs on the Sulaco! The Queen gave them to him!
Quote from: Wweyland on Nov 05, 2023, 11:44:00 AMAliens is better and has aged better as well.
I'd strongly disagree with that - I *love* Aliens with a passsion, but it's aged the worst out of the three original movies - the original depicts working class space truckers that look like your average folk today, Alien 3 with the shaved heads etc could be any period... Aliens? It's pure 1980s cliches, from the hairstyles, language used, fashion, even the colonial marines armour looking very Vietnam in style - take away the CRT computer monitor on fury 161, and Alien 3 could have been filmed yesterday.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Nov 05, 2023, 04:22:45 PMQuote from: Wweyland on Nov 05, 2023, 11:44:00 AMAliens is better and has aged better as well.
I'd strongly disagree with that - I *love* Aliens with a passsion, but it's aged the worst out of the three original movies - the original depicts working class space truckers that look like your average folk today, Alien 3 with the shaved heads etc could be any period... Aliens? It's pure 1980s cliches, from the hairstyles, language used, fashion, even the colonial marines armour looking very Vietnam in style - take away the CRT computer monitor on fury 161, and Alien 3 could have been filmed yesterday.
Nah, aside from some rough blue screen shots, all the effects hold up well in Aliens. Also everyone had military haircuts. Well aside from Ripley, Bishop, and Burk but I wouldnt conisider those particularly 80s cuts, maybe Ripleys but I still see that style around.
Aliens does have and 80s-ness to it but I feel like Alien has a 70s-ness to it also. Products of their time I guess
However I can agree that Alien 3 has probably aged the best over all. Other than the shoddy alien effects.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Nov 05, 2023, 11:36:43 AMAliens is the better film but I find myself revisiting Alien 3 much more often.
This. Aliens is where the bulk of what would become the EU originates from, but almost 40 years on, having seen it a silly number of times and after however many comics and games, it all kind of bleeds together for me. It's almost more like a sourcebook or concept art montage than a narrative film at this point of repetition.
Alien 3 is its own nasty little corner of the setting and gets more rewatches these days.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Nov 05, 2023, 11:36:43 AMAliens is the better film but I find myself revisiting Alien 3 much more often.
Basically me as well. Voted
Aliens but probably watch
Alien 3 more often.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Nov 05, 2023, 04:36:49 PMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Nov 05, 2023, 04:22:45 PMQuote from: Wweyland on Nov 05, 2023, 11:44:00 AMAliens is better and has aged better as well.
I'd strongly disagree with that - I *love* Aliens with a passsion, but it's aged the worst out of the three original movies - the original depicts working class space truckers that look like your average folk today, Alien 3 with the shaved heads etc could be any period... Aliens? It's pure 1980s cliches, from the hairstyles, language used, fashion, even the colonial marines armour looking very Vietnam in style - take away the CRT computer monitor on fury 161, and Alien 3 could have been filmed yesterday.
Nah, aside from some rough blue screen shots, all the effects hold up well in Aliens. Also everyone had military haircuts. Well aside from Ripley, Bishop, and Burk but I wouldnt conisider those particularly 80s cuts, maybe Ripleys but I still see that style around.
Aliens does have and 80s-ness to it but I feel like Alien has a 70s-ness to it also. Products of their time I guess
However I can agree that Alien 3 has probably aged the best over all. Other than the shoddy alien effects.
I think the reason
Alien 3 has aged well is because the prod designers didn't try to make it super 'futuristic' or how they thought styles would look. Despite GUI's existing and improving in the late 80s, the filmmakers deliberately chose to go with Zeerust look, with black screen CLIs and acid-green text and whatnot.
Star Wars, for a while at least, felt dated to me...until I saw newer media (not much, mind you)that deliberately used Zeerust-style and then the issue of it being made in the 70s never crossed my mind anymore.
EDIT: "Retraux" is the term I'm looking at. You don't go too over the top with Retraux hair styles, you mostly just go with safe, timeless haircuts, but still. Alien: Isolation did this too and so (will?)does the game Routine.
Alien 3's crumby VFX were dated the day it was released.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Nov 05, 2023, 11:36:43 AMAliens is the better film but I find myself revisiting Alien 3 much more often.
Alien 3 requires more watches just to figure out where the egg came from.
And which bald rapist is speaking.
Quote from: SM on Nov 05, 2023, 10:19:55 PMAnd which bald rapist is speaking.
I'm terrible with names at the best of times, but I personally don't have any trouble keeping straight which one's which as I'm watching the film. Don't ask me to name any of them other than Morse, Dillon and Golic though.
SM can name them in his sleep now.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 05, 2023, 10:46:41 PMQuote from: SM on Nov 05, 2023, 10:19:55 PMAnd which bald rapist is speaking.
I'm terrible with names at the best of times, but I personally don't have any trouble keeping straight which one's which as I'm watching the film. Don't ask me to name any of them other than Morse, Dillon and Golic though.
Was continuing writing a video script I've been working on for the last couple of years on the weekend and it suddenly struck me how the supporting characters all get their own close up. Like in the assembly hall after Andrews is killed, it's William's scene. Then David gets his close up with the quinitricetyline scene. Kevin gets a smaller one during the autopsy. And Jude just gets to clean shit up after people die - either Murphy or Andrews. Frank and Murphy in the abattoir which got cut, then they both got reinstated for the new opening in the EEV.
None of which helps the film, but it was interesting.
Junior got his rape goggles scene.
Probably fortunate for Ripley that Murphy got done in earlier and broke his rape goggles.
(https://media.tenor.com/v8dJAMILdvcAAAAM/tom-hardy-mad-max.gif?c=VjFfdHdpdHRlcg)
Aliens is the better made film. That said, it hasn't aged all that well. Alien 3's nihilistic tone has grown on me as the sequel with the closest feeling to the original. Alien 3 still has quite a few editing and story issues though.
Aliens is the film that unites the masses and is definitely considered the better film.
I love Aliens because it did so much good for the brand and is probably the most emulated film in games and comics.
But that also made it a bit too corny for me. Almost every comic tries to evoke the action-heavy mood of the second part.
it's what most people want to see or read.
I still chose Alien 3 because the film actually dared to go in a completely different direction than the masses expected/hoped for.
I like that there is only 1 alien going on. As much as Aliens is the better film when it comes to action, machinery, the aliens have been robbed of some of their "intelligence" and partially reduced to cannon fodder.
Alien 3 is the slightly more "realistic" film because everything goes down the drain and there are no heroes. Although Aliens still has enough horror elements, it is definitely the film with more clichés.
that's why the story of the first 3 films taken together is almost perfect.
If Alien 3 were the second part, you would actually have to say that it is just a rip-off.
Because it comes after the second one and concludes the story about Ripley, it has a different meaning for me and is not just a copy of the first film.
I think they wanted to end Ripley's story with the third movie, which is why it looks different from the first two even though it's part of the same story.
Weaver wanted to end Ripley's story and encouraged Ward and Fasano to keep their original ending where she died, after Fox asked them to change it so she lived.
Main reason it looks different is they started building sets based on Ward's script and once he got the flick, Giler and Hill had to write around them.
Quote from: blacksymbiote on Dec 04, 2023, 05:10:36 AMAliens is the better made film. That said, it hasn't aged all that well. Alien 3's nihilistic tone has grown on me as the sequel with the closest feeling to the original. Alien 3 still has quite a few editing and story issues though.
Not sure about that. Aliens arguably holds up better than today's Billion dollar movies. Apart from the drop ship scenes it's almost pure perfection.
Started watching Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny last night and had to double check I hadn't started watching Indiana Jones the Video game :o
What's notable about the second movie is that it's mostly exposition across almost two-thirds of the movie, with the main action taking place only after that.
For newer movies, a lot of spectacle is involved because amounts invested and ticket prices are very high, so producers have to make movies that look expensive and that they hope can generate high payback.
Meanwhile, fans don't know about that, which explains why in the Avatar thread several argue that movies in the franchise are well-made because they made a lot of money, until it reaches a point when viewers realize that they are watching movies that are similar to each other. Given that, more might start moving away, deciding to just wait for the features to appear in streaming (which will happen if producers want to milk franchises as much as they can) or in bargain bins.
Two thirds exposition? Wut?
The exposition mostly ends when the marines get ambushed; that's about 2/5ths the runtime.
He'd have a fair chance of knowing that if he ever saw the movie.
Quote from: ralfy on Dec 08, 2023, 02:42:03 AMWhat's notable about the second movie is that it's mostly exposition across almost two-thirds of the movie, with the main action taking place only after that.
I feel like you're defining exposition as "talky bits with no guns", but that's not what exposition is.
There's plenty of plot and character-development going on. For example, Ripley having a PTSD nightmare. Ripley being suspended. Ripley telling Burke and Gorman to leave her apartment. Bishop doing the knife trick. The marines jeering Ripley.
What exposition there is is mostly woven skillfully into character development and plot beats; and even where it is obvious exposition -- eg "Because I don't have to, there have been people living there for over 20 years and they never complained of any 'hostile organism'" -- it's turned into moments of character, showing Van Luewen's arrogance and Ripley's horror at it: "Families. Jesus."
See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposition_(narrative)
As for the question of the thread: If it's
Alien 3 theatrical, no question that
Aliens is the better film. But if it's
Alien 3 Assembly, it starts to feel like comparing
Star Wars to
2001: A Space Oddysey. They're both fine films but it's not really meaningful to compare them.
Abstained from voting.
Quote from: NecronomIV on Dec 08, 2023, 01:40:41 PMQuote from: ralfy on Dec 08, 2023, 02:42:03 AMWhat's notable about the second movie is that it's mostly exposition across almost two-thirds of the movie, with the main action taking place only after that.
I feel like you're defining exposition as "talky bits with no guns", but that's not what exposition is.
There's plenty of plot and character-development going on. For example, Ripley having a PTSD nightmare. Ripley being suspended. Ripley telling Burke and Gorman to leave her apartment. Bishop doing the knife trick. The marines jeering Ripley.
What exposition there is is mostly woven skillfully into character development and plot beats; and even where it is obvious exposition -- eg "Because I don't have to, there have been people living there for over 20 years and they never complained of any 'hostile organism'" -- it's turned into moments of character, showing Van Luewen's arrogance and Ripley's horror at it: "Families. Jesus."
See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposition_(narrative)
As for the question of the thread: If it's Alien 3 theatrical, no question that Aliens is the better film. But if it's Alien 3 Assembly, it starts to feel like comparing Star Wars to 2001: A Space Oddysey. They're both fine films but it's not really meaningful to compare them.
Abstained from voting.
Actually, I was giving the opposite argument:
QuoteWhat's notable about the second movie is that it's mostly exposition across almost two-thirds of the movie, with the main action taking place only after that.
From the same source:
QuoteIndirect exposition, sometimes called incluing, is a technique of worldbuilding in which the reader is gradually exposed to background information about the world in which a story is set. The idea is to clue the readers in to the world the author is building without them being aware of it. This can be done in a number of ways: through dialogues, flashbacks, characters' thoughts,[3] background details, in-universe media,[4] or the narrator telling a backstory.[3]
Thus, the PTSD nightmare, the hearing, the knife trick, the jeering, etc., are part of indirect exposition and take place across the first half or so of the movie. The main action, which starts with the first alien attack on the team, takes place much later.
Finally, it's hard to compare the second and third movies because they use different subgenres, and think the reason why they did this is because writers didn't want to repeat what took place earlier. Hence, the first movie uses horror based on suspense, i.e., the creature is not fully revealed until the end. Since they could no longer do that with the second because many who saw the first film already know about the alien and would go and watch the second, they focused on action for the latter and this time used more than one aliens (to heighten the action). And since they could no longer do that with the third, i.e., have another group of armed men encounter multiple aliens, they went with something like a procedural: how to trap and destroy a creature to which they have been informed by Ripley, but with further complications.
Similar happened to the fourth movie, where they used something like intrigue (no more company, contending groups, scientific experiments) to come up with even more complications.
Fortunately nowadays no one has seen these four movies so they can just repeat the first one.
I'd argue that pretty much all the exposition in Aliens is done by the 25 minute mark after Ripley briefs the marines.
Quote from: kwisatz on Dec 09, 2023, 02:29:00 AMFortunately nowadays no one has seen these four movies so they can just repeat the first one.
And maybe even remake one or more of the four, etc., similar to what's happening in other franchises.
It's fortunate for the young but angers the older fans who grew up with the four. But it's the franchise owners that make the call.
Quote from: ralfy on Dec 09, 2023, 04:10:10 AMQuote from: kwisatz on Dec 09, 2023, 02:29:00 AMFortunately nowadays no one has seen these four movies so they can just repeat the first one.
And maybe even remake one or more of the four, etc., similar to what's happening in other franchises.
Maybe they even start with
Alien³ to remake one and two as prequels.
(Younger) people would really wonder where this egg come from.
Quote from: kwisatz on Dec 09, 2023, 02:29:00 AMFortunately nowadays no one has seen these four movies so they can just repeat the first one.
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/8y5HWcSdj90AAAAd/s7.gif)
Quote from: ralfy on Dec 09, 2023, 04:10:10 AMQuote from: kwisatz on Dec 09, 2023, 02:29:00 AMFortunately nowadays no one has seen these four movies so they can just repeat the first one.
And maybe even remake one or more of the four, etc., similar to what's happening in other franchises.
It's fortunate for the young but angers the older fans who grew up with the four. But it's the franchise owners that make the call.
Like with the Mad Max series, where
Fury Road remade the other sequels and wiped them out of existence?
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Dec 10, 2023, 11:42:44 PMQuote from: ralfy on Dec 09, 2023, 04:10:10 AMQuote from: kwisatz on Dec 09, 2023, 02:29:00 AMFortunately nowadays no one has seen these four movies so they can just repeat the first one.
And maybe even remake one or more of the four, etc., similar to what's happening in other franchises.
It's fortunate for the young but angers the older fans who grew up with the four. But it's the franchise owners that make the call.
Like with the Mad Max series, where Fury Road remade the other sequels and wiped them out of existence?
I think it's been happening across several franchises, i.e., most viewers are likely young and thus had never heard of or seen the earlier movies, and any new ones were made some time later. So producers re-use formulae from previous movies that worked and bring in new characters, and in several cases resembling previous ones.
Hence, in
Fury Road, they retell the first movie briefly with some changes (e.g., they change Max's son into a daughter, and bring back the car) and then borrow heavily from the second (another main chase seen involving a rig), but to replace Max with Furiosa. Similarly, in the new
Star Wars movies, they repeat the storyline of the youngster on a desert planet and the Death Star, and rehash Khan's story in
Star Trek. Finally, in the
Alien prequels, they repeat the storyline of the ship landing on the rock, a protagonist resembling Ripley (tall, with short, black hair, and a white shirt), crew members named in the same way as Dallas (like Tennessee), and so on.
They will obviously try to maximize profits for their IPs, and that means lots of prequels, sequels, rehashes, retcons, reboots, remakes, etc.
I was not expecting the poll to be this close.
It's only got 25 votes.
I wasn't expecting it to get that many votes either.
Fair.
Alien 3 has a good closure for the trilogy in terms of plot, location, look and ending but I just wish it would have been better. Most characters are forgettable, the alien looks awful.
Yet I love it. It is the end of the cycle for me. Resurrection doesn't exist in my mind nor do the Ridley Scott prequels.
Kinda off topic, but trying to avoid starting a new thread - does anyone remember the name of the website that had a bunch of Alien 3 production documents (reshoot script, call sheets, etc)? It was taken down years ago but was available on the Wayback Machine. Cannot find it for the life of me or remember the site name.
I'm pretty sure it was run by Cvalda, I'll ask her.
EDIT
Alien Archives
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/4CP58gxwbBy2Q/giphy.webp?cid=6c09b9522aioyred9h2y8jwvjp37p8oj2znsexojqg2tifqo&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.webp&ct=g)
Alien Archives
Thanks both. That's what I thought it was called. Can't even find it on the Wayback Machine now.
I mainly just needed the name so proper credit could be given for something.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Nov 05, 2023, 11:36:43 AMAliens is the better film but I find myself revisiting Alien 3 much more often.
I think this is a far assessment for me too. Aliens is the objectively better movie. But Alien 3 just intrigues me a bit more to the point that I've probably revisited it more. Though to be fair, that difference is probably very minute in the grand scheme of things. :laugh:
It'd be interesting if they had used Gibson's script for the third movie and then revised it slightly, e.g., the Sulaco computer malfunctions and the ship drifts towards a large space city. The four are rescued while the Sulaco is towed towards the docks, with the eggs undetected below the hangar grills.
And made the cold war angle relevant and made Hicks the actual main character.
All 4 are haunted house movies. Come at me bros. lol.
Alien - Haunted house on a space ship with 1 ghost
Aliens - Haunted house in a .........big house with a lot of ghosts and momma ghost and 'splosions. Seriously, it spends more time being suspenseful than action.
Alien 3 - Haunted house in another big house, but 1 ghost and potential summoning of a momma ghost. only two 'splosions.
A:R - Haunted house with some dirty bikers like your average direct to video that resurrects our hero and big momma ghost and uses more brown than Call of Duty, but with a twist. A:R goes the furthest. Best film ever. ;)
The odds of me watching the first 3 are pretty high. A:R.....very unlikely.
I personally find AR so much easier to watch than A3 because it's a popcorn film. I remember seeing it at the theater, and as bad as the film is, everyone still had a good time. :laugh:
A3 is the only film in the franchise I'd call boring. AR cracks along at least.
That's Prometheus to me, or AVP (by far) if included. Can't imagine finding any of the originals boring.
AVP and Covenant are yawn producing for me. First four not at all. Prometheus not really.
AVPR
Spoiler
absolutely the hell not ;D
The only one I find boring is Prometheus and thats because after the first viewing you know how completly unsatisfying the plot is.
Prometheus is the worst of the six because, interesting as it is conceptually and as nice looking as it is, it really has no excuse for being such a structural mess (both at the script level and, inexplicably, even worse in the edit). I don't hate Prometheus by any means (the ideas at its core really do work for me, even when the execution never really lives up to them), but also, I can't make excuses for it/forgive it for its warts quite the way I can with Alien 3, given that one's notably messy production.
Covenant rocks.
I'd say Aliens is the objectively better movie, but not by much. Anyway I find myself revisiting both often.
If I had to rank 'em all, my gut reaction is usually:
Alien (TC)
Aliens (SE)/Alien 3 (AC)
Alien: Covenant
Alien: Resurrection (TC)
Prometheus
Don't dislike any of them, even taking my problems with Prometheus' execution/structure into account.
Prometheus had the best trailer though. Remember the excitement? Ah, what could've been! I still watch the trailer sometimes because I like to live in that moment before it all went to shit.
Quote from: PsyKore on Feb 23, 2024, 12:17:52 PMPrometheus had the best trailer though. Remember the excitement? Ah, what could've been! I still watch the trailer sometimes because I like to live in that moment before it all went to shit.
same here.
I think I never saw any Prometheus trailers, oddly. I saw very little promotion before going in the theater.
I even remember asking myself if this movie was tied to Alien beforehand. God I was clueless at that time.
Agreed, it's really good. It probably exacerbated the disappointment that ensued though.
indeed
That trailer plus Ridley Scott's name...my poor heart can't take it again lol.
Still the best trailer I've seen, unfortunately the movie was the most disappointing cinema experience I've ever had (or maybe second behind The Last Airbender).
Quote from: razeak on Feb 23, 2024, 05:49:47 PMThat trailer plus Ridley Scott's name...my poor heart can't take it again lol.
The disappointment... I remember talking about this movie to everyone saying how awesome it would be. The I saw it in theatres, I don't know how express the feeling, I think that it was like "that's it? After all the hype, that's all?"
Amazing trailer, still remember how hyped I was for that film.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 23, 2024, 09:15:00 PMAmazing trailer, still remember how hyped I was for that film.
Me too,I remember trying to convince myself that I liked the movie but I really didn't like it. Covenant in another hand I really like it, but the first Covenant trailer didn't had the impact that the Prometheus one did have
The trailer was amazing though. It just seemed to scream "ALIEN". I really dig some of the "Prometheus style" trailers for the other films.
I really like Prometheus, and was very disappointed at the hatchet-job the podcast did on it last year (or was it the year before?) I'd love a podcast with at least one person who enjoyed the film.
It's always interesting to compare and contrast films, and look at the merits and problems with Aliens and Alien 3 (or any two of the films), but ultimately all of them have something good going for them, and they're all different enough to each other.
Thinking about the two works that are the thread subject now, I'm starting to see Aliens as a good movie and Alien 3 as a good film.
Which is to say, Alien 3 to me feels literate and more of a mood piece; Aliens feels more like Cameron's description of "20 miles of bad road".
The world-building in Aliens is exceptional: the attention to detail is second to none, but Alien 3 feels more like that it's populated with people instead of characters.
I find it hard to define the largely indistinguishable cast as either people or characters. They're cattle for slaughter.
They're people insofar as they're almost completely devoid of identity and personality.
Just like real people.
NIHILISM!!
Quote from: SiL on Feb 24, 2024, 07:54:03 AMI find it hard to define the largely indistinguishable cast as either people or characters. They're cattle for slaughter.
agnus dei
That's Ripley, clearly.
I don't have the media literacy necessary to enjoy Alien 3. :(
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 24, 2024, 09:04:11 AMI don't have the media literacy necessary to enjoy Alien 3. :(
Few are so blessed.
Quote from: SM on Feb 24, 2024, 07:55:18 AMThey're people insofar as they're almost completely devoid of identity and personality.
Just like real people.
NIHILISM!!
True, I don't know anything about most people I encounter.
Realism!
I actually thought
Alien3 was the first in the series to not feel lived in. The prison is big and grimy, sure, but it makes no sense. What's up with those tunnels.
What is up with all the tunnels.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 24, 2024, 08:55:24 AMThat's Ripley, clearly.
Elliot Goldenthal:
"I called the title Agnus Dei because they are all being led like lambs to the slaughter."
Yes, but Agnus Dei is also the Lamb of God - Christ, who Ripley role plays at the end.
See? That all went right over my head.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 24, 2024, 09:42:58 AMSee? That all went right over my head.
She's very subtle about it
You still have enough distinguishable characters beside Ripley. Andrews, Clemens, Aaron, Dillon, Morse and Golic, that's almost as much as in Aliens for example.
I'm not saying they're extremely developped, but they're characterized enough and easily recognizable.
Quote from: NecronomIV on Feb 24, 2024, 07:33:13 AMThe trailer was amazing though. It just seemed to scream "ALIEN". I really dig some of the "Prometheus style" trailers for the other films.
I really like Prometheus, and was very disappointed at the hatchet-job the podcast did on it last year (or was it the year before?) I'd love a podcast with at least one person who enjoyed the film.
It's always interesting to compare and contrast films, and look at the merits and problems with Aliens and Alien 3 (or any two of the films), but ultimately all of them have something good going for them, and they're all different enough to each other.
Thinking about the two works that are the thread subject now, I'm starting to see Aliens as a good movie and Alien 3 as a good film.
Which is to say, Alien 3 to me feels literate and more of a mood piece; Aliens feels more like Cameron's description of "20 miles of bad road".
The world-building in Aliens is exceptional: the attention to detail is second to none, but Alien 3 feels more like that it's populated with people instead of characters.
Even as someone who does not
love Prometheus, that podcast was absolute shite frankly. A shame because they are usually pretty good.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Feb 24, 2024, 11:47:07 AMYou still have enough distinguishable characters beside Ripley. Andrews, Clemens, Aaron, Dillon, Morse and Golic, that's almost as much as in Aliens for example.
I'm not saying they're extremely developped, but they're characterized enough and easily recognizable.
Pretty much accurately how I feel, yes there are a bunch of sometimes literally interchangeable others, but there does definitely also exist a trackable core cast. That are imo every bit as authentic feeling as the characters from Alien and some aspects from Aliens.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Nov 05, 2023, 12:09:21 AMAlien 3 is an under-appreciated masterpiece that somehow went through so much turmoil/production issues, is disowned by its own director, and yet still easily takes trophy as second best movie in the franchise after 'Alien' (imo). It's like if DaVinci took over someone else's painting half way, someone spilled paint all over it, and it still ends up being one of the finest art pieces ever created, yet somehow doesn't catch the eye of the masses, being revered only by those who truly take in its magnificence whilst acknowledging its flaws but accepting that it's no less great because of them.
Very well put
Lol
Quote from: SiL on Feb 24, 2024, 09:41:28 AMYes, but Agnus Dei is also the Lamb of God - Christ, who Ripley role plays at the end.
She took away the sins of the world.
Alien 3 is a great film, I just cannot stand what they did to the main storyline/characters. I wish they had it done as a spin-off with another character set in the Alien universe.
Everyone was bummed about Hicks and Newt's death, including me, but I always thought that was unfair how a lot of people held that against the movie like it was an actual flaw or plot hole.
This movie has many, but this is not one of them.
I've always enjoyed A3, even back when it was released. Some amazing cinematography, sets, and the moody tone is on point. Some great character actors and a great performance from Weaver. Also I never had an issue with killing off Hicks and Newt.
However I'll never consider it as some kind of misunderstood or unappreciated masterpiece of cinema. It's flaws are not minor. The film is a real mess... even if its a beautiful mess.
The killing of Hicks and Newt probably depends on an individuals outlook. Their deaths can be considered callous and could be written better (something I don't disagree with, honestly), but on the other hand it does kinda suit the Alien series well in the sense that it is more grounded and tends to imitate the unjust nature of real life in many ways. And all the Alien films do this, it's just that Alien 3 shoves it in your face right at the start.
Quote from: PsyKore on Feb 25, 2024, 12:26:57 PMThe killing of Hicks and Newt probably depends on an individuals outlook. Their deaths can be considered callous and could be written better (something I don't disagree with, honestly), but on the other hand it does kinda suit the Alien series well in the sense that it is more grounded and tends to imitate the unjust nature of real life in many ways. And all the Alien films do this, it's just that Alien 3 shoves it in your face right at the start.
Interesting. Thinking about the deaths of Hicks and Newt, I realise the reason I really don't much like it is that it doesn't feel like it happened because of anything to do with the requirements of the ongoing story.
It feels less like it's the cruel, unfeeling ALIEN universe at play, than a capricious decision taken by management looking at a spreadsheet. I picture a suit chewing a cigar and saying "lose the kid and the marine".
Whether or not that's true, I don't know, but that's the feeling I get.
To me it's quite obviously both I don't think the tone works with them.
Quote from: NecronomIV on Feb 25, 2024, 11:07:41 PMQuote from: PsyKore on Feb 25, 2024, 12:26:57 PMThe killing of Hicks and Newt probably depends on an individuals outlook. Their deaths can be considered callous and could be written better (something I don't disagree with, honestly), but on the other hand it does kinda suit the Alien series well in the sense that it is more grounded and tends to imitate the unjust nature of real life in many ways. And all the Alien films do this, it's just that Alien 3 shoves it in your face right at the start.
Interesting. Thinking about the deaths of Hicks and Newt, I realise the reason I really don't much like it is that it doesn't feel like it happened because of anything to do with the requirements of the ongoing story.
It feels less like it's the cruel, unfeeling ALIEN universe at play, than a capricious decision taken by management looking at a spreadsheet. I picture a suit chewing a cigar and saying "lose the kid and the marine".
Whether or not that's true, I don't know, but that's the feeling I get.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 12, 2019, 03:55:34 PMHell, they could have given each cryotube its own personal escape pod and written the story so that only Ripley's crashed on Fury while the others didn't.
No Hicks. No Newt. No pointless deaths. Ripley gets her solo adventure. Mission accomplished.
Quote from: NecronomIV on Feb 25, 2024, 11:07:41 PMQuote from: PsyKore on Feb 25, 2024, 12:26:57 PMThe killing of Hicks and Newt probably depends on an individuals outlook. Their deaths can be considered callous and could be written better (something I don't disagree with, honestly), but on the other hand it does kinda suit the Alien series well in the sense that it is more grounded and tends to imitate the unjust nature of real life in many ways. And all the Alien films do this, it's just that Alien 3 shoves it in your face right at the start.
Interesting. Thinking about the deaths of Hicks and Newt, I realise the reason I really don't much like it is that it doesn't feel like it happened because of anything to do with the requirements of the ongoing story.
It feels less like it's the cruel, unfeeling ALIEN universe at play, than a capricious decision taken by management looking at a spreadsheet. I picture a suit chewing a cigar and saying "lose the kid and the marine".
Whether or not that's true, I don't know, but that's the feeling I get.
It was Vincent Ward. I don't know if he smokes cigars.
Ward's script was insane. In the best way possible ;D
A solo adventure constantly undercut by "what happened to them" because the actors had stopped acting, or at best you might get a poor legacy sequel in a few years with recasting, some tonally incongruous passing of the torch shit? (Also all the alternate versions over the years being mediocre at best.)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/5ec139767092293f297f38489b6e3ff9/b4024f3acf035aae-22/s540x810/e2389dd542a5939f4d651ca253b86db3e46f3be5.gif)
The studio made countless stupid decisions during the making of Alien 3 and in the end the only thing that mattered was the release date.
But I think that despite its weaknesses, Alien 3 is still a good film and deserves its permanent place in the Alien universe.
I also think it's a real shame that there isn't a making of book for Alien3 by J.W. Rinzler.
The reason is clearly that Alien 3 is not that popular and is generally considered a problem case.
From a financial perspective, however, it was not a flop and, according to David Giler, was just as successful as the first two parts.
It was neither financially nor critically successful as the first two on terms of return on investment.
Alien3 was twice as good as it should've been and less than half as good as it could've been.
Quote from: Neila on Feb 26, 2024, 11:23:39 AMFrom a financial perspective, however, it was not a flop and, according to David Giler, was just as successful as the first two parts.
I'm not sure where you saw that, but it's really far from Alien and Aliens box office numbers.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Feb 26, 2024, 12:45:12 PMQuote from: Neila on Feb 26, 2024, 11:23:39 AMFrom a financial perspective, however, it was not a flop and, according to David Giler, was just as successful as the first two parts.
I'm not sure where you saw that, but it's really far from Alien and Aliens box office numbers.
Only domestically. It made more than both internationally, not adjusted for inflation, but did better overseas than domestically and cost more than both combined.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 26, 2024, 12:49:25 PMQuote from: BigDaddyJohn on Feb 26, 2024, 12:45:12 PMQuote from: Neila on Feb 26, 2024, 11:23:39 AMFrom a financial perspective, however, it was not a flop and, according to David Giler, was just as successful as the first two parts.
I'm not sure where you saw that, but it's really far from Alien and Aliens box office numbers.
Only domestically. It made more than both internationally, not adjusted for inflation, but did better overseas than domestically and cost more than both combined.
I was just repeating what David Giler said in the Making of Alien 3 in the Quadrilogy Box
Ok I didn't see that, might give it a watch.
If Newt had lived, she could have easily been recast after a time jump for a hypothetical Alien 4. It happens all the time with child characters who grow up. I generally hate recastings and even that sort of recasting doesn't bother me.
And I'm not sure her survival in the scenario I proposed would have been any more of a distraction to the audience than either her death or the baffling presence of an egg on the Sulaco.
i sometimes wonder why they just can t make an animated(to cut down on costs) series on an alternate timeline where they explore an aliens sequel where newt and hicks lived?
or maybe a novel at the very least? there are many takeawys(ideas for newt and hicks) from the alien 3 scripts isn t there?
The comics handled it quite well, barring the last third of the story.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 26, 2024, 07:20:33 PMThe comics handled it quite well, barring the last third of the story.
local
generally speaking do you know what comics were considered the most satisfying in the way they handled the newt hicks issue post aliens?
if this is a too broad question in what section could i ask a question about this ?
Handled it quite well. f**king lol
The Pat Cadigan Alien³ comes the closest to being good and variations thereupon but not as well generally, the Aliens Original Series, good overall on a conceptual level- f**king awful characterisation of returning characters.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 26, 2024, 06:21:19 PMIf Newt had lived, could have easily been recast after a time jump for a hypothetical Alien 4.
You are right that probably would have happened. Thank God they killed Newt then, I can not stand legacy sequels, or passing of the torch stories- they are literally never ever good.
I'd prefer that Newt simply survived and lived happily ever after off-screen. I could easily live without turning her into another Amanda Ripley.
We can only imagine possibilities that we can get disgusted by to reinforce why what we think is good is the best possible option.
The comics also gave us elephant man. Checkmate.
I'm not sure what part of it growing out of the chair people struggled with.
How does it go to the bathroom?
What do you think the chair is?
I like the Alien 3 SE probably more than the Aliens SE. But I prefer the Aliens TC to both of them.
Sentry guns, while a cool gameplay mechanic, are kind of a mood stopper.
Real talk.
Also I do not have to imagine possibilities, I just look at literally every other legacy sequel that currently exists, and base my conclusion on that.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 26, 2024, 07:20:33 PMThe comics handled it quite well, barring the last third of the story.
And the fact that Newt was abandoned to a mental hospital for a decade.
Quote from: SM on Feb 26, 2024, 10:35:38 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Feb 26, 2024, 07:20:33 PMThe comics handled it quite well, barring the last third of the story.
And the fact that Newt was abandoned to a mental hospital for a decade.
Yeah, that was kinda naff.
Spoiler
Did I use "naff" correctly?
It's more a Pommy thing, but seems linguistically correct.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 26, 2024, 10:37:44 PMYeah, that was kinda naff.
Spoiler
Did I use "naff" correctly?
Yes, you did ;)
Quote from: SiL on Feb 26, 2024, 10:03:11 PMWhat do you think the chair is?
Oh right...
then it is now clear what the black liquid is.
The vindaloo was worth it.
I think it was the one with chicken.
But of course these are just pure speculations.