Posted by The Alien Predator
- Jun 15, 2015, 08:37:48 PMQuote from: happypred on Jun 15, 2015, 02:59:29 PM
It really depends on the extent to which they're humanised
For instance, one pred might challenge another pred to a death duel over a perceived insult. Human warriors did that in the past. Predators believe that it's only right for weak predators to die on challenging hunts. Spartans believed in weeding out weak individuals (during training and battles).
The predators belong to a tribal warrior society. It's almost inevitable that the practices and mindsets of certain real-world human warrior societies are the inspiration behind predator society.
What I would object to is making the predators mundane or too sympathetic. I'm against predator office workers or kind-hearted predator "prey rights" activists. Predator society should still be distinct from human society. Individually, predators should still think somewhat differently from how humans think.
The predators are semi-human in that they're intelligent "tool folk" with certain human-like motivations and emotions. I don't want them to become fully human.
So much this, you win the Internets, happypred... this is exactly how the Predators should be.
There are always human traits to find in the Predators, yet they are very different in the way they operate. It is inevitable that we use inspirations from our own culture and practices to add to the Predators such as using hunting dogs and falcons even.
Yet, I too don't like the idea of "prey rights" Predators. I don't mind if one clan disagrees with something, like in one of the NECA toys backgrounds where a Predator Elder (of the "Black Super Predators") disagreed with the whole "teaching humans how to build" as he felt that it added too much value on prey, and this caused a blood feud between his clan and the classics that lasts well into modern times.
See, that is fine. I don't want to see no Predator crowd protesting and going "humans have feelings too!" That would make them way too human.
They are relatable and familiar to us and still, yet very different.
Posted by happypred
- Jun 15, 2015, 02:59:29 PMIt really depends on the extent to which they're humanised
For instance, one pred might challenge another pred to a death duel over a perceived insult. Human warriors did that in the past. Predators believe that it's only right for weak predators to die on challenging hunts. Spartans believed in weeding out weak individuals (during training and battles).
The predators belong to a tribal warrior society. It's almost inevitable that the practices and mindsets of certain real-world human warrior societies are the inspiration behind predator society.
What I would object to is making the predators mundane or too sympathetic. I'm against predator office workers or kind-hearted predator "prey rights" activists. Predator society should still be distinct from human society. Individually, predators should still think somewhat differently from how humans think.
The predators are semi-human in that they're intelligent "tool folk" with certain human-like motivations and emotions. I don't want them to become fully human.
For instance, one pred might challenge another pred to a death duel over a perceived insult. Human warriors did that in the past. Predators believe that it's only right for weak predators to die on challenging hunts. Spartans believed in weeding out weak individuals (during training and battles).
The predators belong to a tribal warrior society. It's almost inevitable that the practices and mindsets of certain real-world human warrior societies are the inspiration behind predator society.
What I would object to is making the predators mundane or too sympathetic. I'm against predator office workers or kind-hearted predator "prey rights" activists. Predator society should still be distinct from human society. Individually, predators should still think somewhat differently from how humans think.
The predators are semi-human in that they're intelligent "tool folk" with certain human-like motivations and emotions. I don't want them to become fully human.
Posted by Milan
- Jun 15, 2015, 06:47:52 AMQuote from: DUB1 on May 11, 2015, 01:48:07 PM
Lot of people dread Predators being "humanized", as in, being anything other than scary monsters. Why is that?
Would all the Predators truly cease to be scary if we were to be introduced to a few "sympathetic" ones, like individuals from that species who don't hunt (that I'd call Non-Predators) but are antagonized by the classic variety who do?
After all, just because there are sympathetic humans, doesn't change the fact that there are also rapists and murderers. The latter two are not made any less frightening by the former. So why can't the Predators be allowed the same nuances as a species?
I can understand being wary of Predators, the kind we know that is, being portrayed in a positive light, seeing as they hunt for sport, but are individuals from that species who don't hunt also a no-no?
Besides, I could never hate alien hunters as much as the human equivalent anyway. I'm not indifferent to the Predators' evil, but we've never encountered beings that look and sound like them in the real world, which makes them a less palpable evil. Therefore, insisting on keeping them purely evil seems forced, to me.
I think that why ppl are against them being more humanized is because it feels like it goes against their nature...They got a role to play, the one of the hunter, we are the prey. When they start to do "good" stuff in their interactions with their prey it just feels wrong, like if the Bear would fight a pack of wolfs trying to kill a deer, because it feels like 5 against 1 is unfair and dishonorable... Wouldn't it be more natural if the bear fought the wolfs because they were fighting over the deer, over the prey?
Posted by The Alien Predator
- May 12, 2015, 04:15:48 PMPredators have some similarities to humanity, their body shape and their use of tools.
However, humans are not the only animal that uses tools or has emotions nor is it the only thing that kills for fun (I'm looking at you, cats.)
So despite the Yautja sharing some traits with us, their charm comes from them being quite different from us. When have you ever seen a human sports hunter shoot a rifle from his shoulder? Then what is similar is done in a very cool way, such as them mimicking us to lure us in the same way we mimic deer to lure them.
They also have rules and laws just how humans have rules and laws. Hell, we even have HUNTING laws just like they seem to from various Predator media. Humans for example prohibit using explosives and machine guns to gun down deer just how Predators wouldn't advocate using their more advanced weaponry to bring on a hunt.
I am not a huge fan of the whole "the less we know" thing of them. I agree with Hicks that Predators should always be expanded upon and explored further, but in a careful way that keeps them interesting at the same time without revealing too much at once and saving some for later. Mystery can only take you so far before it gets really boring. Speculations can only go for so long whereas new information revives topics and discussion in ways that speculations don't always do.
The whole Engineer reveal made me love the Space Jockeys even more whereas before that it was just some giant fossil sitting on a chair, just a small curiosity and hardly anything interesting. Now it opened up so many doors in the franchise for me.
However, humans are not the only animal that uses tools or has emotions nor is it the only thing that kills for fun (I'm looking at you, cats.)
So despite the Yautja sharing some traits with us, their charm comes from them being quite different from us. When have you ever seen a human sports hunter shoot a rifle from his shoulder? Then what is similar is done in a very cool way, such as them mimicking us to lure us in the same way we mimic deer to lure them.
They also have rules and laws just how humans have rules and laws. Hell, we even have HUNTING laws just like they seem to from various Predator media. Humans for example prohibit using explosives and machine guns to gun down deer just how Predators wouldn't advocate using their more advanced weaponry to bring on a hunt.
I am not a huge fan of the whole "the less we know" thing of them. I agree with Hicks that Predators should always be expanded upon and explored further, but in a careful way that keeps them interesting at the same time without revealing too much at once and saving some for later. Mystery can only take you so far before it gets really boring. Speculations can only go for so long whereas new information revives topics and discussion in ways that speculations don't always do.
The whole Engineer reveal made me love the Space Jockeys even more whereas before that it was just some giant fossil sitting on a chair, just a small curiosity and hardly anything interesting. Now it opened up so many doors in the franchise for me.
Posted by HuDaFuK
- May 12, 2015, 03:41:32 PMQuote from: overthere on May 12, 2015, 03:23:36 PMPride when they strip down their weapons. When they collect their trophy they seem proud of it.
Anger, well, they just seem angry, always growling. I think the Predator got angry when Dutch called him an ugly motherf**ker. Dutch hurt his feelings.
Overconfidence when he walked behind Dutch while he was crawling towards the trap. He's just walking behind him, taking his time, picking flowers on the way.
Again though, there's really nothing categorically shown in any of those cases. Literally all of that is down to how you choose to interpret it rather than anything the film shows us. Who knows what the Predator's thinking at those points?
Posted by overthere
- May 12, 2015, 03:23:36 PMQuote from: HuDaFuK on May 12, 2015, 01:42:47 PMQuote from: DUB1 on May 12, 2015, 01:39:16 PMThe thing is, the Predators are already "humanized". Because all the emotions they've shown were like human ones. Pride, sadism, anger, overconfidence and even honor such as sparing that kid and a pregnant woman.
When have they ever categorically shown emotions?
Plus honour isn't really an emotion. It's ethics.
Pride when they strip down their weapons. When they collect their trophy they seem proud of it.
Anger, well, they just seem angry, always growling. I think the Predator got angry when Dutch called him an ugly motherf**ker. Dutch hurt his feelings.
Overconfidence when he walked behind Dutch while he was crawling towards the trap. He's just walking behind him, taking his time, picking flowers on the way.
I don't think they ever acted sadistically. They kill, but they don't torture just to cause pain. Hell, they don't torture at all, they kill you fast.
Posted by HuDaFuK
- May 12, 2015, 01:42:47 PMQuote from: DUB1 on May 12, 2015, 01:39:16 PMThe thing is, the Predators are already "humanized". Because all the emotions they've shown were like human ones. Pride, sadism, anger, overconfidence and even honor such as sparing that kid and a pregnant woman.
When have they ever categorically shown emotions?
Plus honour isn't really an emotion. It's ethics.
Posted by DUB1
- May 12, 2015, 01:39:16 PMThe thing is, the Predators are already "humanized". Because all the emotions they've shown were like human ones. Pride, sadism, anger, overconfidence and even honor such as sparing that kid and a pregnant woman. But I suppose that as long as they don't help old ladies cross the street or something like that, they aren't "humanized", seeing as "humanization" only covers the positive human emotions, at least that's how it seems.
Plus, as brutal as the Predators are, what we've seen them do either is equal to human cruelty, or surpassed by human cruelty at it's absolute worst, but worse than human cruelty? Hell no.
As for keeping them different than humans, they can do that without making them a lazy avatar for human evil. Like dumping all the worst human traits in the Predators and giving them none of the good ones is all it takes to make them alien.
I admit that one reason I wouldn't mind them being more nuanced as a species, is because I hate seeing such superb designs be given almost strictly to villains, who almost always lose. Am I really expected to root for a Predator's defeat much more so than a realistic human villain's (like Edwin) when they have those designs and those weapons at their disposal?
Plus, as brutal as the Predators are, what we've seen them do either is equal to human cruelty, or surpassed by human cruelty at it's absolute worst, but worse than human cruelty? Hell no.
As for keeping them different than humans, they can do that without making them a lazy avatar for human evil. Like dumping all the worst human traits in the Predators and giving them none of the good ones is all it takes to make them alien.
I admit that one reason I wouldn't mind them being more nuanced as a species, is because I hate seeing such superb designs be given almost strictly to villains, who almost always lose. Am I really expected to root for a Predator's defeat much more so than a realistic human villain's (like Edwin) when they have those designs and those weapons at their disposal?
Posted by Corporal Hicks
- May 12, 2015, 11:06:25 AMThe mystery can't be sustained for long. And if it is then it's lazy writing IMHO. The challenge comes in exploring them but making them different.
Posted by HuDaFuK
- May 12, 2015, 11:00:10 AMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on May 12, 2015, 10:54:02 AMI'd disagree with that. It's not the not knowing that makes them different. It's being different that makes them different.
I kinda threw the mystery and lack of humanization in together, but that was basically the point I was trying to make. Either a lack of explanation or a lack of humanization makes them more appealing.
Posted by Corporal Hicks
- May 12, 2015, 10:54:02 AMQuote from: HuDaFuK on May 12, 2015, 10:49:50 AM
It's got nothing to do with them being scary. It's about them being different from humans. The less we know about them, and the less human they are, the more interesting they are. Otherwise you might as well just replace them with people and have no aliens at all.
I'd disagree with that. It's not the not knowing that makes them different. It's being different that makes them different. I don't mind learning about the Predators. What I don't want them to do is apply all sorts of human elements to them.
Posted by HuDaFuK
- May 12, 2015, 10:49:50 AMQuote from: DUB1 on May 11, 2015, 01:48:07 PMLot of people dread Predators being "humanized", as in, being anything other than scary monsters. Why is that?
Would all the Predators truly cease to be scary if we were to be introduced to a few "sympathetic" ones, like individuals from that species who don't hunt (that I'd call Non-Predators) but are antagonized by the classic variety who do?
It's got nothing to do with them being scary. It's about them being different from humans. The less we know about them, and the less human they are, the more interesting they are. Otherwise you might as well just replace them with people and have no aliens at all.
Posted by Xenomorphine
- May 11, 2015, 08:21:09 PMIt's all about how 'relateable' they'd become. The original film worked so well specifically because it was revealed to be something far greater than a handful of guys with guns. Something which literally had a mythical/cosmic status.
Remember all the justifiable disappointment over how the Space Jockeys were turned into Engineers? It's the same principle.
Remember all the justifiable disappointment over how the Space Jockeys were turned into Engineers? It's the same principle.
Posted by overthere
- May 11, 2015, 05:30:41 PMQuote from: DUB1 on May 11, 2015, 03:21:52 PM
For all we know, the Predators are outlaws among the Yautja, and there is a faction that specifically hunt them down.
Or there could be Predators who make a point of only hunting scum. Like the Punisher.
See, "good" Yautjas/Predators can in fact be anti-heroes, just as violent as those we know. They wouldn't be like Scar, who for all intents and purposes was a classic Predator (behaviorally, not aesthetically), who was portrayed as sympathetic despite killing that guy before entering the pyramid and later Wayland. I actually didn't have such an issue with the Scar-Lex team-up, but they could have done a better job of explaining why Scar spared her in particular.
It's unlikely the Predators are outlaws on their home planet, since they use their spaceships freely, and seem to not be in a hurry. If they were outlaws, they wouldn't be able to regularly visit Earth and hunt without a care in the world, someone from their home would stop them.
I don't have a problem with the team-up at the end of AvP either. They had a bigger threat and both could use help from another. Plus, Lex helped him and gave him his weapon back, so it's in the character of their sense of honor not to kill her.
I just didn't like the slow-mo running scene of them side by side, like it's Baywatch.
Posted by DUB1
- May 11, 2015, 03:21:52 PMQuote from: overthere on May 11, 2015, 02:58:22 PM
If we start having peaceful, friendly Predators, then the whole thing loses it's appeal, at least to me. The less we know about them the better, and all we know is they like to hunt. Imagine if there was an Alien movie with Xenomorphs being cute pets.
And regular Predators just hunt dangerous people, so they're not randomly evil and bloodthirsty in the first place.
"Good" Predators don't have to be pacific.
(For the sake of argument, I'll refer to the entire species as Yautja, and the kind we know, both Classic and Super, as Predators)
For all we know, the Predators are outlaws among the Yautja, and there is a faction that specifically hunt them down.
Or there could be Predators who make a point of only hunting scum. Like the Punisher.
See, "good" Yautjas/Predators can in fact be anti-heroes, just as violent as those we know. They wouldn't be like Scar, who for all intents and purposes was a classic Predator (behaviorally, not aesthetically), who was portrayed as sympathetic despite killing that guy before entering the pyramid and later Wayland. I actually didn't have such an issue with the Scar-Lex team-up, but they could have done a better job of explaining why Scar spared her in particular.
