If there was a Queen in the game

Started by newbeing, Aug 17, 2018, 05:19:58 PM

Author
If there was a Queen in the game (Read 6,929 times)

Acid_Reign161

I still prefer to think of the queen in 'Aliens' as an aberration /first of its kind/ an adaptation to environmental circumstance. Folk on the whole seem to have this need to limit the xeno to a big ant (in part fuelled by years of Dark Horse comics that followed the lead of the second movie only). But that's not what the movies show us. In fact, we've never seen the same thing twice on screen when it comes to the Alien movies. The Xenomorph works best as a volatile and chaotic adaptive creature that cannot be predicted.

The Cruentus

Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Sep 18, 2023, 09:21:22 AMFolk on the whole seem to have this need to limit the xeno to a big ant (in part fuelled by years of Dark Horse comics that followed the lead of the second movie only

The Alien was always insect-like from the beginning. All Cameron did was add a Queen.

Acid_Reign161

Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 19, 2023, 07:44:04 PM
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Sep 18, 2023, 09:21:22 AMFolk on the whole seem to have this need to limit the xeno to a big ant (in part fuelled by years of Dark Horse comics that followed the lead of the second movie only

The Alien was always insect-like from the beginning. All Cameron did was add a Queen.

Not really; there was not one thing about the creature in the first movie that could be considered specifically insect-like. At a stretch you could compare it laying its young in a host like a parasitic wasp- but then that's like comparing a bird to a snake because they both lay eggs. The creature in the first movie was truly alien.

James Cameron introduced the hive in the 2nd movie, made the alien a mindless drone, introduced a queen, and if you go by the special edition, wasn't subtle about it at all, with the whole "maybe it's like an ant hive" "bees man! Bees have hives""you know what I mean, one female that runs the whole shell""yes, the queen". I mean he literally had to spell it out for the benefit of the stupid, as if nobody knows what a hive is or how it works. 😂

The Cruentus

The Cruentus

#33
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Dec 19, 2023, 08:43:33 PMNot really; there was not one thing about the creature in the first movie that could be considered specifically insect-like. At a stretch you could compare it laying its young in a host like a parasitic wasp- but then that's like comparing a bird to a snake because they both lay eggs. The creature in the first movie was truly alien.

James Cameron introduced the hive in the 2nd movie, made the alien a mindless drone, introduced a queen, and if you go by the special edition, wasn't subtle about it at all, with the whole "maybe it's like an ant hive" "bees man! Bees have hives""you know what I mean, one female that runs the whole shell""yes, the queen". I mean he literally had to spell it out for the benefit of the stupid, as if nobody knows what a hive is or how it works. 😂

Yes there was. You would have to be blind not to notice the many traits it has in common with insects. Eggs, Parasite, acid blood, its exo/endo/meso-skeleton-like appearance in general and there have been one or so people from back then that described it as such.
For "mindless drones", they cut the power, sabotaged a dropship, tested defences and got around them. And of course they wiped out a squad of marines.
The exposition was the character's benefit, not ours.  :P

Acid_Reign161

Acid_Reign161

#34
Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 19, 2023, 09:08:19 PM
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Dec 19, 2023, 08:43:33 PMNot really; there was not one thing about the creature in the first movie that could be considered specifically insect-like. At a stretch you could compare it laying its young in a host like a parasitic wasp- but then that's like comparing a bird to a snake because they both lay eggs. The creature in the first movie was truly alien.

James Cameron introduced the hive in the 2nd movie, made the alien a mindless drone, introduced a queen, and if you go by the special edition, wasn't subtle about it at all, with the whole "maybe it's like an ant hive" "bees man! Bees have hives""you know what I mean, one female that runs the whole shell""yes, the queen". I mean he literally had to spell it out for the benefit of the stupid, as if nobody knows what a hive is or how it works. 😂

Yes there was. You would have to be blind not to notice the many traits it has in common with insects. Eggs, Parasite, acid blood, its exo/endo/meso-skeleton-like appearance in general and there have been one or so people from back then that described it as such.
For "mindless drones", they cut the power, sabotaged a dropship, tested defences and got around them. And of course they wiped out a squad of marines.
The exposition was the character's benefit, not ours.  :P

Eggs: not exclusive to insects.
Parasitic: not exclusive to insects
Acid blood: insects don't have blood, they have haemolymph, and it's ph is barely acidic, it is borderline neutral.
Exoskeleton: not exclusive to insects.

There was no insect-like behaviour observed in the first movie. Likewise, there wasn't even anything remotely insect in its morphology; Defining characteristics of an insect;

"a chitinous exoskeleton, a three-part body (head, thorax and abdomen), three pairs of jointed legs, compound eyes, and a pair of antennae."

A three part body: a Xenomorph does not have this.
Three pairs of jointed legs: a Xenomorph does not have this.
Compound eyes: a Xenomorph does not have this.
A pair of antennae; a Xenomorph does not have this.

At best, you have a *presumed* exoskeleton - though even this is not actually clear in the first movie since a draft of the script showed the creature could reshape itself, and on screen we can see a skull behind the head plate, showing it has a skeleton (something else an insect doesn't have).

Not one thing really.

It's an intelligent parasitic bipedal with a biomechanical exterior. It cocoons its prey and they undergo a metamorphosis into its larvae. Name one insect on Earth that fits that description or displays that behaviour. I'll wait.

As for the exposition; yeah sure, it was totally for the benefit of the colonial marines, middle aged soldiers that frequent colonies on multiple worlds but need reminding by a droid what the hierarchy of an insect hive is, and totally not at all for the benefit of giving the audience a name to the big alien in the movie for marketing purposes to sell the merch.🤣🤣🤣🤣

The Cruentus

The Cruentus

#35
Never said it was exclusive.... :P
The Alien has multiple traits of insects/bugs/arachnids. Or whatever umbrella term can be used.
I.E it has always had bug-like, insect-like or arachnid-like traits.  :P

As for minute details such as body parts, yeah it is an Alien, the traits it has is not from simply one type of insect.

It makes hives/resin production (which it did in the first film, regardless of the scene being cut) it can walk on walls (spider) it is eusocial (ants, termites) the "blood" which was just for ease of phrasing, it is pretty obvious its not blood, blood. So no need to be pedantic.

Overall the alien is an amalgram of insect/bug like traits, something it had from the start. Thus they was always bug-like/insect-like  :laugh:

Also one more thing....I never called it an actual insect  :P  :laugh:  I said it was "insect-like" so trying to make me compare it to earth insects is again you being confrontational for no reason.

Acid_Reign161

Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 19, 2023, 10:02:12 PMNever said it was exclusive.... :P
The Alien has multiple traits of insects/bugs/arachnids. Or whatever umbrella term can be used.
I.E it has always had bug-like, insect-like or arachnid-like traits.  :P

As for minute details such as body parts, yeah it is an Alien, the traits it has is not from simply one type of insect.

It makes hives/resin production (which it did in the first film, regardless of the scene being cut) it can walk on walls (spider) it is eusocial (ants, termites) the "blood" which was just for ease of phrasing, it is pretty obvious its not blood, blood. So no need to be pedantic.

Overall the alien is an amalgram of insect/bug like traits, something it had from the start. Thus they was always bug-like/insect-like  :laugh:

Also one more thing....I never called it an actual insect  :P  :laugh:  I said it was "insect-like" so trying to make me compare it to earth insects is again you being confrontational for no reason.

Not being confrontational at all; you're doing it again- trying to prove points with factors which weren't in the first movie; it makes hives? No it doesn't, there was biomechanical growth on the walls around where Brett and Dallas were eggmorphing. There is no 'hive' until the second movie. It can walk on walls? When? When does it walk on walls in the first movie? It is eusocial? No way of confirming, it is the only alien on board, and it didn't seem particularly protective of the eggs it was morphing the hosts into, so no idea where you are getting that. I'm still waiting for you to point out the bug-like traits in the *first* movie (which is the point of this conversation) the best you have is concept art of Dallas being cocooned in a web-like structure, that you could say is arachnid-like... and it never made it into the movie (or the directors cut, the webbing was switched to biomechanical growth). That's it. That's all you have without having to lean heavily on the sequels.

I could do what you are doing and apply any number of traits to another type of organisms, in example, let's pull this out of my ass and say "you'd have to be blind not to see this is heavily based on marine invertebrates! Parasitic, chitinous exoskeleton, it can squeeze in areas smaller than its body, it can excrete solid resin-based structures, it's highly adaptable to environmental stressors (etc etc)" but like with your argument, that's nothing but an anthropomorphic interpretation: you're seeing what you want to see, and it's heavily influenced by what you know of the second movie and expanded media onwards... which brings us back full circle; it was never a bug until the second movie.

The Cruentus

The Cruentus

#37
hive/resin
Could class it as either. Deleted scene sure but it was something they did from the beginning.

It would be a coincidence if they only had one insect trait but they have multiple.

Not sure where you are getting that I was only talking about the first film... Just said that they were insect-like from the beginning, which they were.
But I will bite. Egg, Facehugger/chestburster, acid "blood", molting, "exoskeleton"  and general appearance. Cocooning (deleted scene but it was in the first film)
All insect-like traits from the first film.

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/the-insect-influence/

https://screenhub.blog/2018/08/14/why-aliens-didnt-turn-the-monster-into-a-space-bug-screenhub-entertainment/

Acid_Reign161

Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 20, 2023, 12:56:48 AMhive/resin
Could class it as either. Deleted scene sure but it was something they did from the beginning.

It would be a coincidence if they only had one insect trait but they have multiple.

Not sure where you are getting that I was only talking about the first film... Just said that they were insect-like from the beginning, which they were.
But I will bite. Egg, Facehugger/chestburster, acid "blood", molting, "exoskeleton"  and general appearance. Cocooning (deleted scene but it was in the first film)
All insect-like traits from the first film.

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/the-insect-influence/

https://screenhub.blog/2018/08/14/why-aliens-didnt-turn-the-monster-into-a-space-bug-screenhub-entertainment/

LOL, we are never going to agree on this. 😉

You don't understand why we are only discussing the first movie? *sigh* I mean... this whole conversation started because I said the 2nd movie turned the creature into a big bug, and you asserted that it had always been so... I mean, what other source of media before the 2nd movie, other than the 1st movie, would you like us to compare? 😂

The big chap does only have one on-screen factor that could be (barely) considered insect-like.. that would be the one I acknowledged in my very FIRST reply to you when I said (quote:) "laying its young in a host like a parasitic wasp" - I'm not sure what was to be gained by linking to the strange shapes blog with quotes from O'Bannon and co confirming what I'd already said? 😂 Especially when, if you actually read it - it cites parasites, microscopic organisms, and insects as inspirations. Three sources of inspiration. Their main source of inspiration was a very specific parasitic wasp,yes; but that is the source of inspiration for the chestburster scene; not the alien itself. Like I said in my posts above; the traits you are claiming are insect-like, beyond the way it reproduces can be attributed to any number of organisms. You can keep repeating the same handful of so-called traits, and I'll happily provide you a list of all the non-insect species that can do exactly the same. (I also ought to point out that particular wasp is an outlier; 99.9% of insects do NOT reproduce by laying young in a host - it wasn't an inspiration because it was an insect, it was an inspiration as a parasite, so even though it inspired the chestburster scene, that in itself isn't a typical insect-like trait).

Now in comparison, I *cant* do that with the 2nd movie; a Hive? A queen /matriarch system with drones/workers? Can I attribute those factors to any other known organism? No. At least, non that I know of (keen to know if there are!); those factors are exclusively bug/insect... which once again brings us full circle to my original comment; They weren't reduced to bugs until the 2nd movie.

When you can give a list of exclusively insect-like traits or behaviours seen on-screen in the first movie (key word being exclusive, meaning I cannot cite another creature that does the same) I'll be willing to discuss more. Until then, simply listing attributes that a gazillion species can do it's like me saying "in the 'Underworld' movies, the werewolves/lycans were based on chimps!! They have all the same traits! Territorial, bi-pedal, fur all over their body, they don't lay eggs, giving birth to live young - just like a chimp! you'd have to be blind not to see it! It's so obvious" (sounds absolutely ridiculous when you take it to extremes doesn't it?)

But the truth is, the big chap in 'Alien' was way more than just a big bug. Same can't be said of the way the drones were handled in 'Aliens'.

And furthermore to those strange shapes article quotes; talking about inspirations, did you ever see the original concept art for the creature before Giger was brought on board? Now that WAS an insect through and through (thank god we didn't get that in the movie!) 🤣 Things evolve.. the chestburster scene was magical, and I'm pleased that was the only thing carried over from the original inspiration source for what would otherwise have been a laughable (and forgettable) B-movie monster (gawd that thing was awful.. I forget, was it Ron Cobb's design?) 🤣

The Cruentus

By all means ignore the sources.

Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Dec 20, 2023, 03:09:33 AMThey weren't reduced to bugs until the 2nd movie.
🤣
They were never reduced to bugs at all, they were always bug-like.

Also I don't recall the drone of the first movie cutting power, sabotaging dropships, testing defences, getting around said defences etc
They were hardly reduced, they were just up against armed threats  :laugh: 

BlueMarsalis79

The Drone in the first movie does cut the power, inferred anyway.

The Cruentus

Are you referring to the loss of cameras or something in the lower decks? I think that was due to lack of repairs as Dallas wanted to get off the planet asap.

Acid_Reign161

Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Dec 20, 2023, 12:20:46 PMThe Drone in the first movie does cut the power, inferred anyway.

Indeed, in 12-module. 😊 It is also intelligent enough to get to the life boat when the cooling system is turned off, and remains hidden in an act of self-preservation, as opposed to just mindlessly running and throwing itself directly at Ripley's flame thrower. 😂

Acid_Reign161

Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 20, 2023, 12:43:54 PMAre you referring to the loss of cameras or something in the lower decks? I think that was due to lack of repairs as Dallas wanted to get off the planet asap.

"I thought you fixed 12-module."
"We did."

The Cruentus

Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Dec 20, 2023, 12:46:34 PMas opposed to just mindlessly running and throwing itself directly at Ripley's flame thrower. 😂

When in Aliens did the Alien mindlessly run and throw themselves at Ripley's flamethrower?

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