Dinosaurs and other prehistoric creatures

Started by DoomRulz, Jul 10, 2008, 12:17:08 AM

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Dinosaurs and other prehistoric creatures (Read 282,737 times)

DoomRulz


Immortan Jonesy


Vertigo

There's been a study that's been making headlines recently, in which it's concluded that pretty much every non-avian dinosaur (including Archaeopteryx) is a mesotherm.

"Mesothermic" is a very fuzzy definition which essentially means intermediate between cold-blooded (ectothermic) animals like reptiles, amphibians and most fish, and warm-blooded (endothermic) animals like mammals and birds. The broad definition of a "dinosaur" nowadays is an intermediary form between birds and archosaurian reptiles, so this probably won't surprise you.
The most notable modern mesotherms are lamnid sharks (incl. great white and mako), swordfish, tuna and monotreme mammals (echidna and platypus). They have several methods of generating and retaining heat, but have fewer systems of temperature control than an endotherm, and are therefore less energy efficient and more dependant on environmental conditions.

The study was performed by measuring growth rates in 21 dinosaur species, and comparing them with a large number of present-day animals.

So, that's the news. Personally though I don't agree, and think the study has serious problems.

The reason is, growth rates are not on a fixed scale dictated solely by metabolism. It's made possible by burning off energy, but various factors can determine how much excess energy an animal has to put into growth. It's determined by how much nutrition the animal is receiving, and how much energy it's burning off due to its lifestyle.

Today's warm-blooded animals tend to have lifestyles in which the babies are highly dependant on their parents - they don't travel much, and rely on the adults to protect them and feed them. The adults are able to provide them with far more nutrition than a small animal could ever find on its own; either through calorie-rich milk in mammals, or the all-day foraging cycle of birds (and there's almost always two adults caring for a chick).
Basically, a young mammal/bird has little more requirement than to sit around, get used to how its body works, eat and grow. They can put a HUGE amount of energy into their growth, because they've got so much to spare. They're close to (or at) full growth by the time they leave their parents.

But dinosaurs were different. Most or all of them had to fend for themselves well before adulthood, and most seem to have been from a very early age. Some of them may have been independant from the moment they hatched.
This means they wouldn't get nearly as much nutrition as today's warm-blooded animals, without milk or a full-sized food provider. But there's more to it than that: an independant animal has to burn off energy on travel, evading predators, finding their food, and even digesting it (mammal and bird parents do most of the digestion for their offspring).
Therefore it's inevitable that a dinosaur would grow more slowly than one of today's warm-blooded animals, due to lifestyle. It's not a smoking gun about their metabolism.

It's worth noting that growth rates do vary among dinosaurs. Ceratopsids, ornithopods, tyrannosaurids and large sauropods all grow quicker than their relatives. And interestingly, most of those (sauropods being the exception I think, which baffles me) also seem to have raised their babies for extended periods.

Anyway. As for what sort of metabolism dinosaurs had, the one certainty is that it seemed to be highly variable.
Some very early dinosaurs show definite signs of advanced ectothermy, as prosauropods demonstrate a mish-mash of growth rates (within species and even within groups), which probably show animals that were getting more sun and environmental warmth growing faster.
Some dinosaur groups had better heat insulation than others, a sure sign that they were less dependant on sunbathing to warm their bodies.
And the respiratory system in each dinosaur order grew increasingly sophisticated and capable over time. I think this is a sign of the progression of dinosaur energetics.

It's perfectly plausible that maniraptoran dinosaurs may have had metabolisms on par with today's ground birds, and ornithopods may have had energetics similar to mammals. But it's an issue that's been debated almost as long as palaeontology's been in existence.



(There's more here. I recommend following Phenomena, it's where I get most of my dinosaur news. You may find a similar post to this in the comments section; it ain't plagiarism.)


Sigh, once again my lengthy typing has exposed me for a brutal ninja'ing. Cheers, Shrimp. :P

Immortan Jonesy

Woa, Vertigo, are you a scholar of paleontology?. Thanks for the link by the way :D I'm a big fan of dinosaurs and paleontology :)

Vertigo

Nope, just a dinosaur groupie.

DoomRulz

Quote from: Vertigo on Jun 14, 2014, 06:30:37 PM
Today's warm-blooded animals tend to have lifestyles in which the babies are highly dependant on their parents - they don't travel much, and rely on the adults to protect them and feed them. The adults are able to provide them with far more nutrition than a small animal could ever find on its own; either through calorie-rich milk in mammals, or the all-day foraging cycle of birds (and there's almost always two adults caring for a chick).
Basically, a young mammal/bird has little more requirement than to sit around, get used to how its body works, eat and grow. They can put a HUGE amount of energy into their growth, because they've got so much to spare. They're close to (or at) full growth by the time they leave their parents.

But dinosaurs were different. Most or all of them had to fend for themselves well before adulthood, and most seem to have been from a very early age. Some of them may have been independant from the moment they hatched.
This means they wouldn't get nearly as much nutrition as today's warm-blooded animals, without milk or a full-sized food provider. But there's more to it than that: an independant animal has to burn off energy on travel, evading predators, finding their food, and even digesting it (mammal and bird parents do most of the digestion for their offspring).
Therefore it's inevitable that a dinosaur would grow more slowly than one of today's warm-blooded animals, due to lifestyle. It's not a smoking gun about their metabolism.

"Most of them"? I would doubt that because parenthood is a widely accepted concept in dinosaur behaviour.

Quote from: Vertigo on Jun 14, 2014, 06:30:37 PM
It's worth noting that growth rates do vary among dinosaurs. Ceratopsids, ornithopods, tyrannosaurids and large sauropods all grow quicker than their relatives. And interestingly, most of those (sauropods being the exception I think, which baffles me) also seem to have raised their babies for extended periods.

Not really, when you consider that sauropods lived in herds and were constantly on the move. Combined with their massive size, how could an adult realistically look after it's mouse-sized young?

Quote from: Vertigo on Jun 14, 2014, 06:30:37 PM
Anyway. As for what sort of metabolism dinosaurs had, the one certainty is that it seemed to be highly variable.
Some very early dinosaurs show definite signs of advanced ectothermy, as prosauropods demonstrate a mish-mash of growth rates (within species and even within groups), which probably show animals that were getting more sun and environmental warmth growing faster.
Some dinosaur groups had better heat insulation than others, a sure sign that they were less dependant on sunbathing to warm their bodies.

It'll be interesting to see how this affects the prevailing views on sails and spines as thermal regulators.

Vertigo

Quote from: DoomRulz on Jun 16, 2014, 03:18:40 PM"Most of them"? I would doubt that because parenthood is a widely accepted concept in dinosaur behaviour.

Childrearing behaviour is only known in a handful of groups, and even then, probably not to maturity in the way most birds and mammals do. We know plenty of them incubated their nests (whether by brooding or covering them), but that's a different story.
Most young dinosaurs are clearly precocial, showing physical traits which would allow them to fend for themselves; mammalian and avian babies are generally fairly helpless.
Like I mentioned, the species for which we have the best evidence of childrearing, tend to be the ones which grew faster.

Quote from: DoomRulz on Jun 16, 2014, 03:18:40 PM
Quote from: Vertigo on Jun 14, 2014, 06:30:37 PM
It's worth noting that growth rates do vary among dinosaurs. Ceratopsids, ornithopods, tyrannosaurids and large sauropods all grow quicker than their relatives. And interestingly, most of those (sauropods being the exception I think, which baffles me) also seem to have raised their babies for extended periods.

Not really, when you consider that sauropods lived in herds and were constantly on the move. Combined with their massive size, how could an adult realistically look after it's mouse-sized young?

That's not what baffles me; it's hard to imagine a 50-ton sauropod being a capable parent for a dog-sized baby. What I don't understand is how they grew so quickly when they don't appear to have been cared for.

DoomRulz

Quote from: Vertigo on Jun 16, 2014, 04:21:33 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Jun 16, 2014, 03:18:40 PM"Most of them"? I would doubt that because parenthood is a widely accepted concept in dinosaur behaviour.

Childrearing behaviour is only known in a handful of groups, and even then, probably not to maturity in the way most birds and mammals do. We know plenty of them incubated their nests (whether by brooding or covering them), but that's a different story.
Most young dinosaurs are clearly precocial, showing physical traits which would allow them to fend for themselves; mammalian and avian babies are generally fairly helpless.
Like I mentioned, the species for which we have the best evidence of childrearing, tend to be the ones which grew faster.

I think they grew fast because they needed to. A theropod needs to attain large size so that it isn't offed by larger predators and a sauropod needs to grow quickly so that its size, which realistically is its best defense, is there when the animal needs it the most.

Quote from: Vertigo on Jun 16, 2014, 04:21:33 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Jun 16, 2014, 03:18:40 PM
Quote from: Vertigo on Jun 14, 2014, 06:30:37 PM
It's worth noting that growth rates do vary among dinosaurs. Ceratopsids, ornithopods, tyrannosaurids and large sauropods all grow quicker than their relatives. And interestingly, most of those (sauropods being the exception I think, which baffles me) also seem to have raised their babies for extended periods.

Not really, when you consider that sauropods lived in herds and were constantly on the move. Combined with their massive size, how could an adult realistically look after it's mouse-sized young?

That's not what baffles me; it's hard to imagine a 50-ton sauropod being a capable parent for a dog-sized baby. What I don't understand is how they grew so quickly when they don't appear to have been cared for.

Yeah, that's what I meant. As to your second statement, I imagine it's just eating, eating, eating. Animals that grow that large need to be constantly feeding themselves to gain and maintain their bulk.

Vertigo

Quote from: DoomRulz on Jun 16, 2014, 04:46:52 PM
I think they grew fast because they needed to. A theropod needs to attain large size so that it isn't offed by larger predators and a sauropod needs to grow quickly so that its size, which realistically is its best defense, is there when the animal needs it the most.

Just needing something to happen doesn't make it so, otherwise we'd all grow up super-fast. My point is, it looks like the dinosaurs which were reared for an extended period grew the quickest.

Quote from: DoomRulz on Jun 16, 2014, 04:46:52 PM
Quote from: Vertigo on Jun 16, 2014, 04:21:33 PMWhat I don't understand is how [large sauropods] grew so quickly when they don't appear to have been cared for.

I imagine it's just eating, eating, eating. Animals that grow that large need to be constantly feeding themselves to gain and maintain their bulk.

Again - why wouldn't every dinosaur herbivore do the same and achieve the same effect? For that matter, why wasn't it the case with the smaller sauropod species?
I assume there must have been something in their lifestyle which was offering them increased nutrition or a decrease in general energy demands. Then again, getting back to the original article, it could have been something to do with the energetics of these species.

My mini-point is, they don't appear to fit the trend of the other faster-growing dinosaur groups.

DoomRulz

Quote from: Vertigo on Jun 16, 2014, 05:41:49 PM
Again - why wouldn't every dinosaur herbivore do the same and achieve the same effect? For that matter, why wasn't it the case with the smaller sauropod species?

Because like I said, if you need size to rely on for your survival, you're going to grow faster. It might also have been an evolutionary trait, reliant upon which predators sauropods coexisted with. Living with a Mapusaurus or a T.Rex is going to mean that Argentinosaurus or Alamosaurus need to shoot up as quickly as possible, whereas living with a Dracovenator means that Aardonyx doesn't need to grow super fast.

Vertigo

We've discussed the merits of dinosaur giantism here recently, the question here - stemming from this study - is what biological mechanism allowed these species to grow faster than their relatives. It doesn't happen automatically just because there's selective pressure. Everything is naturally selected to grow up as fast as it can, mortality is highest among subadults in pretty much every vertebrate species on the planet.

DoomRulz

What allowed them to grow so fast?

My guess would be super efficient digestion systems to maximize nutrient intake.


Vertigo

Curious. The main example they pick sounds like it's more a problem with the university, as they describe the one-graduate year as being typical, and two enrollees an all-time record.

If it is true that there's a declining interest in palaeontology in China, I'd want to know if there are any similar trends going on globally. It may be an example of the increasing pull of capitalism in the region, they describe it as losing out to fields with higher earning potential.
Probably goes hand-in-hand with the trend that's seeing endangered species increasingly hunted despite wildlife campaigning being at an all-time high, and "amateur palaeontologists" digging up bones to sell on the black market, never to be seen by science. There's a huge push in the region towards people making a buck at any cost.

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