Dinosaurs and other prehistoric creatures

Started by DoomRulz, Jul 10, 2008, 12:17:08 AM

Author
Dinosaurs and other prehistoric creatures (Read 283,378 times)

Greedo

What do we think about gigantoraptor ?


DoomRulz

I think it's history biggest f**king turkey.

OmegaZilla

OmegaZilla

#872
Quote from: DoomRulz on Jan 02, 2014, 12:10:16 PM
I think it's history biggest f**king turkey.
26 foot turkey.

Greedo

Would have done brilliantly for Christmas dinner :(

Vertigo

Vertigo

#874
Alrighty.

Quote from: DoomRulz on Dec 30, 2013, 12:55:44 PM
Quote from: Vertigo on Dec 29, 2013, 07:21:24 PM
I've often wondered if sauropods would thrive in today's northern Asia, where there's virtually endless uninhabited pine forest. They had the stomach to cope with the very toughest foods, so I guess it's a matter of thermoregulation; the infants would need massive amounts of insulation. There are sauropods known from polar regions, so it's not implausible.

I doubt it. Part of the reason sauropods grew so large was because there was a higher amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. They'd likely asphyxiate before they realized what they were eating. There's also the issue of actually eating the food. Were their teeth designed to consume pine needles? How much nutrition would they get from it? Is there enough forestry to support a large herd of giant animals?

Personally I think sauropods grew so large to facilitate the development of a gigantic, all-conquering digestive tract that could extract maximum nutrition from pretty much anything they stumbled across, evidenced by many species living in distinctly unlush environments. Also allowed support for the universally long neck, though it's still unclear what role this played in sauropod life. I'm not familiar with the theory that atmospheric carbon dioxide supported their giantism, is there a source I could take a look at?
I'm not sure why they'd asphyxiate, either. By many estimates, there's a higher concentration of oxygen today than through most of the Mesozoic (others think it's mildly lower. That's palaeontology for you).

Many sauropods would get on just fine eating pine. Pine trees actually evolved during the Cretaceous (along with many other exceptionally hard-to-eat plants - presumably a reaction to grazing from the greatest eating machines in the history of the planet). Similar conifers proliferated, and were widely chomped upon, throughout the Mesozoic.
As for forestry, yes - boreal forests form the world's largest contiguous ecosystems on land, and many vast tracts (such as northern Asia as mentioned earlier) are virtually uninhabited.

Quote from: DoomRulz on Dec 30, 2013, 06:41:10 PM
I love you darling ;)

I think we need to see a counselor...

DoomRulz

Quote from: Vertigo on Jan 05, 2014, 12:14:10 AM
Alrighty.

Quote from: DoomRulz on Dec 30, 2013, 12:55:44 PM
Quote from: Vertigo on Dec 29, 2013, 07:21:24 PM
I've often wondered if sauropods would thrive in today's northern Asia, where there's virtually endless uninhabited pine forest. They had the stomach to cope with the very toughest foods, so I guess it's a matter of thermoregulation; the infants would need massive amounts of insulation. There are sauropods known from polar regions, so it's not implausible.

I doubt it. Part of the reason sauropods grew so large was because there was a higher amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. They'd likely asphyxiate before they realized what they were eating. There's also the issue of actually eating the food. Were their teeth designed to consume pine needles? How much nutrition would they get from it? Is there enough forestry to support a large herd of giant animals?

Personally I think sauropods grew so large to facilitate the development of a gigantic, all-conquering digestive tract that could extract maximum nutrition from pretty much anything they stumbled across, evidenced by many species living in distinctly unlush environments. Also allowed support for the universally long neck, though it's still unclear what role this played in sauropod life. I'm not familiar with the theory that atmospheric carbon dioxide supported their giantism, is there a source I could take a look at?
I'm not sure why they'd asphyxiate, either. By many estimates, there's a higher concentration of oxygen today than through most of the Mesozoic (others think it's mildly lower. That's palaeontology for you).

Many sauropods would get on just fine eating pine. Pine trees actually evolved during the Cretaceous (along with many other exceptionally hard-to-eat plants - presumably a reaction to grazing from the greatest eating machines in the history of the planet). Similar conifers proliferated, and were widely chomped upon, throughout the Mesozoic.
As for forestry, yes - boreal forests form the world's largest contiguous ecosystems on land, and many vast tracts (such as northern Asia as mentioned earlier) are virtually uninhabited.


Why would they need to be large to extract maximum nutrition? I think that would rely solely on how effective the animal's digestive system, which would lead to a larger size. It's not just because they're large. At least, that's how I see it.

About the CO2, I first heard it discussed in Jurassic Fight Club. Fossil analysis of Jurassic plant life showed higher levels. Also,

http://www.biocab.org/carbon_dioxide_geological_timescale.html
http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-higher-in-past.htm
http://caos.iisc.ernet.in/faculty/pghosh/content/Publications/19.pdf

Not just oxygen levels. I'm talking about CO2. Since CO2 levels were higher, then they probably needed it to maintain their size and mobility, ergo, they lived off of it. Without it, they would die.

Vertigo

More gut means more bacteria (essential for breaking down vegetation in particular), more gastric juices, broader stomach and intestinal walls, and higher capacity allowing foodstuffs to process for longer. That's a generalisation of course, digestive systems work differently in different animals - an elephant's stomach is used primarily for storage, for example, and they digest very little of what they eat.
Still, sticking with elephants, there is apparently research that shows larger elephants have increased capability to process difficult content from a wider variety of plants.
Bear in mind, the dominant plants in the dinosaur era tended to be horribly difficult to digest - conifers, cycads, ferns, horsetails, palms. These tend to be much rarer today.

No question CO2 was higher through most of the Mesozoic - much higher - as it's pretty unanimously agreed on. What I don't understand is why this would allow greater sizes... it's oxygen that an animal metabolises to produce energy, I have no idea what carbon dioxide deprivation would do to anything that isn't a plant.
Furthermore, during the Jurassic, worldwide CO2 levels took a massive dip, not too far from modern levels - and it's believed that this may have coincided with an ice age. But this didn't affect sauropod size or diversity as far as I'm aware (in fact it's around when the first eusauropods evolve).

DoomRulz

CO2 is linked with larger physical size though. It's why insects grew to such enormous sizes during the Carboniferous period. Those animals wouldn't survive in today's environment because they'd be dead to the world. I think the same rule would apply to sauropods. I don't know what it is about more CO2 that allows this to happen. I only know that it allows for it.


Vertigo

Vertigo

#878
Anyway, I was actually just about to hit up this thread again anyway, with a bit of news.

The latest known dromaeosaurid has been announced recently, from right at the very end of the dinosaur era. It's called Acheroraptor and was discovered in Montana, meaning it'd have shared a habitat with Tyrannosaurus rex among others.
It's described as a 'mid-sized' dromie, which I imagine means around wolf to leopard-size (it's hard to get a feel from the picture, and I haven't seen measurements). Small predators are very poorly known from the late Maastrichtian age, though tooth evidence indicates a troodontid may have been scurrying around with Acheroraptor.






Quote from: DoomRulz on Jan 06, 2014, 12:15:34 AM
CO2 is linked with larger physical size though. It's why insects grew to such enormous sizes during the Carboniferous period. Those animals wouldn't survive in today's environment because they'd be dead to the world. I think the same rule would apply to sauropods. I don't know what it is about more CO2 that allows this to happen. I only know that it allows for it.

Ahhhh, I see what you mean now. It's a fair assumption, but the same rule doesn't apply - insects have a maximum size which I think is dictated by the quirks of their exoskeletal structure (fortunately for everything else). I've heard various explanations for exactly why this maximum size was so much greater during the Carboniferous and Permian, my current round of googling is actually coming up with increased oxygen levels as an explanation. One article's pulling research that insects given a higher-concentration oxygen environment can grow 20% larger in a single generation, and grow smaller if deprived of it.
I think the theory is that the breathing holes of an insect don't scale up in direct parallel to carapace size, so there is a point beyond which they'll become asphyxiated.

So anyway, with sauropods breathing through nostrils and lungs rather than spiracles and tracheoles, they don't have the same issue.

DoomRulz

Quote from: Vertigo on Jan 06, 2014, 12:29:31 AM
Anyway, I was actually just about to hit up this thread again anyway, with a bit of news.

The latest known dromaeosaurid has been announced recently, from right at the very end of the dinosaur era. It's called Acheroraptor and was discovered in Montana, meaning it'd have shared a habitat with Tyrannosaurus rex among others.
It's described as a 'mid-sized' dromie, which I imagine means around wolf to leopard-size (it's hard to get a feel from the picture, and I haven't seen measurements). Small predators are very poorly known from the late Maastrichtian age, though tooth evidence indicates a troodontid may have been scurrying around with Acheroraptor.



http://wpmedia.news.nationalpost.com/2013/12/acheroraptor-temertyorum1.jpg?w=400&h=525


I read that as Archeoraptor at first and I thought, "Oh Christ, that can of worms again!?", lol. If it shared the environment with T.Rex, does that means it's post-Dromaeosaurus? I'm just curious because that would dictate I think where it falls on the dromaeosauridae evolutionary family tree.

Quote from: Vertigo on Jan 06, 2014, 12:29:31 AM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Jan 06, 2014, 12:15:34 AM
CO2 is linked with larger physical size though. It's why insects grew to such enormous sizes during the Carboniferous period. Those animals wouldn't survive in today's environment because they'd be dead to the world. I think the same rule would apply to sauropods. I don't know what it is about more CO2 that allows this to happen. I only know that it allows for it.

Ahhhh, I see what you mean now. It's a fair assumption, but the same rule doesn't apply - insects have a maximum size which I think is dictated by the quirks of their exoskeletal structure (fortunately for everything else). I've heard various explanations for exactly why this maximum size was so much greater during the Carboniferous and Permian, my current round of googling is actually coming up with increased oxygen levels as an explanation. One article's pulling research that insects given a higher-concentration oxygen environment can grow 20% larger in a single generation, and grow smaller if deprived of it.
I think the theory is that the breathing holes of an insect don't scale up in direct parallel to carapace size, so there is a point beyond which they'll become asphyxiated.

So anyway, with sauropods breathing through nostrils and lungs rather than spiracles and tracheoles, they don't have the same issue.

OK, fair enough. I always thought it was extra CO2. I am still of the mentality that the CO2 had to mean something. It can't just be a coincidence that that was the atmosphere during the Mesozoic and it was the age of reptiles. I mean, there's a reason why we have the animals today that we do; they've evolved for this Earth.

Vertigo

I'd imagine the excess CO2 would have had some effect on the plants of the time, which (100% guesswork here) may explain the profusion of redwoods, tree ferns and giant horsetails. Obviously any effect on plantlife trickles down through the ecosystem, with herbivores adapting for specific grazing (such as stomach-propelled giantism, perhaps) and predators having to adjust to any differences that caused.
The generally higher temperatures would have had an ecological effect too (if I remember rightly the Triassic, in particular, was very arid, but this had more to do with the landmass organised into the supercontinent Pangaea). It's important to remember though that just because the temperature tended to be higher, it doesn't mean that everywhere was hot. Another point is that the temperature throughout the Mesozoic is actually roughly standard for most of the time there's been complex life on earth - the dips, such as the present one, are associated with ice ages (and we are currently in an interglacial period of an ice age).

If it's true that the Mesozoic had a significantly lower oxygen level, though, then the effect of that on animals would have been enormous. There's a theory that archosaurs and mammals gained a foothold in the late Triassic because they'd evolved more sophisticated respiratory systems, making them able to function at a high level despite the sparse oxygen. Archosaur air sacs (particularly prevalent in saurischians and pterosaurs) and mammalian thoracic diaphragms are far more efficient for respiration than any reptile system, and therefore the latter groups went into decline.
As mentioned earlier though, there's some debate about the oxygen level, whereas the CO2 is more or less a known quantity.




Anyway, Acheroraptor (funny you mention Archaeoraptor, as Philip Currie was involved in the study of both).
It did indeed come after Dromaeosaurus, and you make an excellent point because this is very important for understanding dromie evolution and distribution. The researchers have recovered Acheroraptor as a basal velociraptorine, which makes it the only one ever found outside Asia - and genetically separated from slightly earlier countrymate Dromaeosaurus by a potentially huge gulf of time.

Before we get all excited though, it's worth pointing out that dromie evidence tends to be fragmentary, and Acheroraptor is no exception. Our piecing together of the dromaeosaurid family tree is highly speculative, given that key genera don't even have well-preserved skulls associated with them (notably, the giant Utahraptor and Achillobator, which as early and middle examples of the group, are of key importance). It wouldn't surprise me if the surprise discovery of a complete skull from a little-known animal throws the whole family tree into re-alignment, and Acheroraptor may ultimately prove to be a dromaeosaurine.

DoomRulz

Quote from: Vertigo on Jan 06, 2014, 01:59:06 PM
I'd imagine the excess CO2 would have had some effect on the plants of the time, which (100% guesswork here) may explain the profusion of redwoods, tree ferns and giant horsetails. Obviously any effect on plantlife trickles down through the ecosystem, with herbivores adapting for specific grazing (such as stomach-propelled giantism, perhaps) and predators having to adjust to any differences that caused.
The generally higher temperatures would have had an ecological effect too (if I remember rightly the Triassic, in particular, was very arid, but this had more to do with the landmass organised into the supercontinent Pangaea). It's important to remember though that just because the temperature tended to be higher, it doesn't mean that everywhere was hot. Another point is that the temperature throughout the Mesozoic is actually roughly standard for most of the time there's been complex life on earth - the dips, such as the present one, are associated with ice ages (and we are currently in an interglacial period of an ice age).

If it's true that the Mesozoic had a significantly lower oxygen level, though, then the effect of that on animals would have been enormous. There's a theory that archosaurs and mammals gained a foothold in the late Triassic because they'd evolved more sophisticated respiratory systems, making them able to function at a high level despite the sparse oxygen. Archosaur air sacs (particularly prevalent in saurischians and pterosaurs) and mammalian thoracic diaphragms are far more efficient for respiration than any reptile system, and therefore the latter groups went into decline.
As mentioned earlier though, there's some debate about the oxygen level, whereas the CO2 is more or less a known quantity.

Global temperatures were definitely higher though than they are today. There weren't any ice caps at the poles, even though we know some dinosaurs did live in Arctic temperatures. But by today's standards, it's nothing humans would have found unbearable. On you last point about mammals going into decline, that's precisely why I think dinosaurs wouldn't survive in today's world. It's a nice fantasy but the atmosphere caters to mammals and not reptiles, hence the reversal of the latter group becoming smaller and the former growing larger.

Quote from: Vertigo on Jan 06, 2014, 01:59:06 PM
Anyway, Acheroraptor (funny you mention Archaeoraptor, as Philip Currie was involved in the study of both).
It did indeed come after Dromaeosaurus, and you make an excellent point because this is very important for understanding dromie evolution and distribution. The researchers have recovered Acheroraptor as a basal velociraptorine, which makes it the only one ever found outside Asia - and genetically separated from slightly earlier countrymate Dromaeosaurus by a potentially huge gulf of time.

Before we get all excited though, it's worth pointing out that dromie evidence tends to be fragmentary, and Acheroraptor is no exception. Our piecing together of the dromaeosaurid family tree is highly speculative, given that key genera don't even have well-preserved skulls associated with them (notably, the giant Utahraptor and Achillobator, which as early and middle examples of the group, are of key importance). It wouldn't surprise me if the surprise discovery of a complete skull from a little-known animal throws the whole family tree into re-alignment, and Acheroraptor may ultimately prove to be a dromaeosaurine.

I raised it because the general rule of evolution is that the last of a species to evolve from a certain family tree is the "most highly evolved" of that group. If Acheroraptor is the last dromie to have evolved, that would place it at the top of the family tree in that regard.

Vertigo

Quote from: DoomRulz on Jan 06, 2014, 02:58:58 PM
Quote from: Vertigo on Jan 06, 2014, 01:59:06 PMThere's a theory that archosaurs and mammals gained a foothold in the late Triassic because they'd evolved more sophisticated respiratory systems, making them able to function at a high level despite the sparse oxygen. Archosaur air sacs (particularly prevalent in saurischians and pterosaurs) and mammalian thoracic diaphragms are far more efficient for respiration than any [other] reptile system, and therefore the latter groups went into decline.

On you last point about mammals going into decline, that's precisely why I think dinosaurs wouldn't survive in today's world. It's a nice fantasy but the atmosphere caters to mammals and not reptiles, hence the reversal of the latter group becoming smaller and the former growing larger.

That's not what I said. :P

DoomRulz

You didn't say mammals went into decline?

Vertigo

Vertigo

#884
Nope.

[...Okay, that is a jerky answer, I'll clarify that for de-jerkification.]

I'm saying that reptiles, without the advanced respiratory systems of mammals and advanced archosaurs, declined as they didn't have the right tools (under the aforementioned theory).

Should say for the record, if I ever mention 'reptile', I'm not talking about dinosaurs because I don't really consider them reptiles.

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