Prey Producer Talks Franchise Future and Possible New AVP Film!

Started by RidgeTop, Aug 18, 2022, 04:57:52 AM

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Prey Producer Talks Franchise Future and Possible New AVP Film! (Read 6,446 times)

SiL

SiL

#120
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Oct 01, 2022, 09:16:22 PMA hour into every movie?
You're really going to pick on the specific minute? :-\

QuoteCompletely different, Nostromo? Kane is abandoned.
Dallas wouldn't abandon Kane. He'd try to freeze him. Ash, the guy who is sabotaging the mission, would back him up. "Sure it'll work."

QuoteHadley's Hope? Nuked.
They didn't know if it was the Aliens or not. They had to find out -- when they did, they wanted to nuke it, yes.

QuoteThe Prison? Everyone takes Ripley seriously the first time, thus starting the plan against the Xenomorph before more people die. And of course, Spike's owner would identify the marks on him and something would have been done about it.
Done what about it, exactly?

QuoteKnowledge makes a f**kton of difference, the Predator is always prepared, that is a downright unfair matchup.
You really must think the Aliens suck if the only way they have any chance is to completely blindside their prey and hope they kill enough of them before they work it out. I like to give them more credit.

But let's flip it for a second. This is where we started:

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Sep 29, 2022, 07:33:06 PMWhen a Predator dies in AVP, it never looks like it's because the Aliens are dangerous, it's never because a Xenomorph outwits, overwhelms or beats the Predator, but because that specific Predator was stupid,
I agree, this is so often the case. But:

QuoteBroken Tusk's party being rebellious dumb teens too busy murdering civilians to realize their incoming demise,
So the Predators know about the Aliens -- and still die because they're idiots. How would them not knowing about the Aliens make this any better? Now they die because they didn't know the Aliens existed and were coming from them. Aliens didn't really need to outwit, outsmart, or outmatch them, did they? They just surprised them.

QuoteCeltic being an idiot who was beating Grid around the entire fight only to then let himself die because he forgot acid was a thing,
How would Celtic not knowing what an Alien is fix this? Surely he'd be even more justified thinking the net would hold if he doesn't know about the Alien?

Quotethe crew at the start of Requiem shooting explosive weapons inside a ship.
How would that Predator not knowing what an Alien is help fix this scenario?

Also, how is it

Quote11/10 AvP media the aliens are treated like trash and the Predators like gods,

But you just listed a non-comprehensive list of AvP stories treating Predators like morons?

Let's be clear here: Your solution to "the Aliens never outwit, outsmart, or overpower Predators, the Predators just act dumb and die" is to ... make the Predators actually dumb when it comes to the Aliens ... ? The Aliens still don't overpower, outwit, or outsmart anything, the Predators now just have a reason to make these mistakes that get them killed. We've solved nothing, other than making the Predators not look quite as bad.

The idea that Aliens can only be effective if they're attacking a completely ignorant force is more insulting than Wolf manhandling Aliens in the sewer.

PAS Spinelli

PAS Spinelli

#121
 You were the one that mentioned one hour lol

QuoteDallas wouldn't abandon Kane. He'd try to freeze him. Ash, the guy who is sabotaging the mission, would back him up. "Sure it'll work."
Nope, the moment the egg was described, everyone would know it was a Xeno egg batch and leave asap, because the basics of the Xenomorph XX121 would be known to everyone.

QuoteThey didn't know if it was the Aliens or not. They had to find out -- when they did, they wanted to nuke it, yes.
They decided to Nuke it only after getting their ass kicked, they went there to rescue people, not because "they had to find out", none of them knew what a Xenomorph XX121 was and the only person that did wasn't being taken seriously. If they all knew what one was and saw that everyone in town was in a single area, they'd assume it was the hive and would nuke the site, even if they went into investigate, they'd notice the hive walls and leave.

QuoteDone what about it, exactly?
What kind of question is that? If they knew the dog was impregnated with a Xenomorph, it likely would have been put down and then thrown into the fire like the rest.

QuoteYou really must think the Aliens suck if the only way they have any chance is to completely blindside their prey and hope they kill enough of them before they work it out. I like to give them more credit.
More credit is hoping their prey is stupid? Good to know.

 As for everything else you quoted Sil, those are examples of the Predators only losing when they are specific ones made as worthless background characters meant to die to move the plot forward.
 The Predators are treated like gods, except for 2-5 useless background Preds that at most have a cool design, they are there only to die within the first act while the main Pred prooceds to clean the floor with every single Xenomorph he faces. A Predator essentially letting himself get killed is not nearly the same as dozens of Xenomorphs being killed off in seconds by a single Predator, specially when the writing is garbage and you get something like Requiem where the Predator is a complete moron and every Xenomorph becomes braindead when in contact with him.
 
 Also, it's very obvious them knowning about the Aliens is not my only point, they are downgraded in more ways than that, being made weaker, less durable and stupid.


Also, the unknown is also a huge factor in the Predator movies, if every human knew what they were dealing with the movies would have been very different.

SiL

SiL

#122
Are you actually paying attention to what I'm saying or are you just arguing for the sake of it?

Like:

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Oct 01, 2022, 10:40:26 PMAlso, it's very obvious them knowning about the Aliens is not my only point, they are downgraded in more ways than that, being made weaker, less durable and stupid.
Yeah, and if you actually paid attention to literally anything I was writing you'd know I agreed and that my only argument is "making the Aliens unknown to the Predator doesn't fix any of that".

That's it. That's the whole point I'm making. Swapping "Predators need to be idiots for the Alien to win" with "Predators need to be ignorant for the Alien win" doesn't address all the other bullshit writers do to nerf Aliens at every opportunity.

We both want Aliens to outwit, outsmart and overpower Predators. Aliens being unknown to Predators has nothing to do with that. You could have Predators fighting Aliens for the first time and still have it turn into "Predator God destroys Alien trash".

I want to discuss how to actually fix that issue.

QuoteAlso, the unknown is also a huge factor in the Predator movies, if every human knew what they were dealing with the movies would have been very different.
Predator 2 or The Predator both featured teams specifically set up to study and track Predators. Both featured them getting slaughtered.

OpenMaw

Quote from: SiL on Oct 02, 2022, 05:07:35 AMPredator 2 or The Predator both featured teams specifically set up to study and track Predators. Both featured them getting slaughtered.

In a way that does play into not knowing though. At least with Keyes' team. The Predator is just stupid, period. Keyes' team was relatively well aware of what they were dealing with and did the best with what intel they had. Not knowing that the Predator was capable of seeing in more spectrums than just IR... That lack of knowledge, is what got them killed.

SiL

They had multiple ways of monitoring the Predator and realised quickly that it could see them and their plan was bust.

What got them killed was the scene desperately trying to recreate the marines going into the hive in Aliens but without an explanation for why nobody listened to the monitoring team.

We're really going in circles here, is nobody else getting dizzy?

OpenMaw

Quote from: SiL on Oct 02, 2022, 11:25:32 AMThey had multiple ways of monitoring the Predator and realised quickly that it could see them and their plan was bust.

They didn't. Harrigan did. Keyes told him to shut up. Their plant failed because they did not take into account that he could see on more than one spectrum. Not knowing got them killed. They did not know that, and it was not factored into their plan in any form of contingency as even a possibility.

SiL

Harrigan is still someone who was present and ignored.

They had contingencies for the Predator not falling for the trap. They move into a "defensive formation" that was really dumb.

But this is, again, really missing the forest for the trees. They knew about the Predator, his habits, etc - he still surprised them. Knowing about the Predator doesn't guarantee you success, anymore than the Predator knowing about humans guarantees them success.

Even if they knew he could switch vision modes, he's a cunning, thinking, intelligent organism, just like a person. Just because you can design a sophisticated trap based on knowing your prey doesn't mean it's guaranteed to work.

Which goes back to my actual point, which at this point I can only assume people are stubbornly ignoring on purpose:

Predators not knowing about the Aliens doesn't fix the actual problems with how their encounters are written.

PAS Spinelli

You can argue it doesn't, which won't have an effect on the fact it dismisses a core part of how the Alien stories go and is one of the many factors that make the crossover favor the Predator

OpenMaw

Quote from: SiL on Oct 02, 2022, 07:58:21 PMHarrigan is still someone who was present and ignored.

That isn't what you said though. You were talking specifically about Keyes' team and what they did.

Quote from: SiL on Oct 02, 2022, 07:58:21 PMThey had contingencies for the Predator not falling for the trap. They move into a "defensive formation" that was really dumb.

I mean I wouldn't call that a contingency. Switching strategy in a combat situation isn't the same as "we need a completely new plan because this has gone tits up."  I do agree though, that this is a result of how closely the sequence is copying the scene from Aliens, but it lacks the Gorman character being in charge and incompetent/failing to react.


Quote from: SiL on Oct 02, 2022, 07:58:21 PMBut this is, again, really missing the forest for the trees. They knew about the Predator, his habits, etc - he still surprised them. Knowing about the Predator doesn't guarantee you success, anymore than the Predator knowing about humans guarantees them success.

They didn't know enough, is the point. They had some idea of his habits, what he was up to, and that he saw by infrared. They were completely ignorant and unaware of his technological capabilities beyond that.

Quote from: SiL on Oct 02, 2022, 07:58:21 PMEven if they knew he could switch vision modes, he's a cunning, thinking, intelligent organism, just like a person. Just because you can design a sophisticated trap based on knowing your prey doesn't mean it's guaranteed to work.

Granted, but one does not discount the other. You're better off going into a combat situation with as much knowledge as possible versus going into it ignorant and having to learn along the way. That's not even up for debate. Ignorance will always lead you down a worse path than having knowledge and being able to effectively utilize the knowledge against your foes.

Quote from: SiL on Oct 02, 2022, 07:58:21 PMWhich goes back to my actual point, which at this point I can only assume people are stubbornly ignoring on purpose:

Predators not knowing about the Aliens doesn't fix the actual problems with how their encounters are written.

And I don't disagree with that, Sil. My fundamental point is that all of these factors DO play a part in how they are written.

The reality is you have to write the aliens up to the Predator's capabilities, not the other way around. The Predator should be able to contend with the aliens by simple fact that they have so much technology at their disposal. Any ranged engagement is going to require very well crafted "staging" to not have the aliens just be reduced to smoldering corpses.

Back to the subject of not knowing, if the Predator is not aware of the Alien's presence at all, that gives the Alien a first strike advantage over the Predator. If the Predator is over there focused on the human characters, he's not even in the right vision mode to detect the incoming strike. So to say it doesn't make a difference is disingenuous. That does not mean it is the right way to go. It is a potential tool for any writer working on a project such as this.

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Oct 02, 2022, 09:23:57 PMYou can argue it doesn't, which won't have an effect on the fact it dismisses a core part of how the Alien stories go and is one of the many factors that make the crossover favor the Predator

I would say the Predator's advantage is the big f*ck off plasma weapon on his shoulder which neutralizes (potentially) two of the alien's advantages. Shoulder cannon "fuses and cauterizes" wounds, meaning that acid splash would be greatly negated, and it eliminates a large potential for the alien to close the gap.

Kradan

Quote from: OpenMaw on Oct 03, 2022, 11:12:40 AMI do agree though, that this is a result of how closely the sequence is copying the scene from Aliens, but it lacks the Gorman character being in charge and incompetent/failing to react.

Well, Garber fills that role while Harrigan is basically Ripley.

Speaking of that scene, yes, it does heavily copy hive sequence from Aliens but I think Hopkins did a damn good job copying it. I mean, yes it's quite similair but not in an annoying way, at least for me. It's still a very fun to watch beatifully shot scene so I don't mind really

Also, Cameron himself lifted quite a few plot bits from Alien, so, you know, nobody's blameless

OpenMaw

Quote from: Kradan on Oct 03, 2022, 11:53:11 AM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Oct 03, 2022, 11:12:40 AMI do agree though, that this is a result of how closely the sequence is copying the scene from Aliens, but it lacks the Gorman character being in charge and incompetent/failing to react.

Well, Garber fills that role while Harrigan is basically Ripley.

Speaking of that scene, yes, it does heavily copy hive sequence from Aliens but I think Hopkins did a damn good job copying it. I mean, yes it's quite similair but not in an annoying way, at least for me. It's still a very fun to watch beatifully shot scene so I don't mind really

Also, Cameron hims

elf lifted quite a few plot bits from Alien, so, you know, nobody's blameless

Garber is not an analog for Gorman. He's not in command, and he's not incompetent in the moment of crisis. Keyes is the leader of the operation. The sequence in Predator 2 follows the form, but not the function. That scene in Aliens acts as a transfer of power from the marines to Ripley. I'm simply saying the structure of the scene is similar, but it is not operating with the same brain as Aliens.

Also i'm not blaming anyone or anything. The point is that the Predator 2 scene was copied without completely thinking about what it was doing in Aliens, and what it needed to be doing in Predator 2.

The right twist was to have Keyes pull his team out, and the Predator cutting them down in the attempt. Instead of standing there completely unable to see and unable to protect themselves.

Kradan

Quote from: OpenMaw on Oct 03, 2022, 02:01:33 PMAlso i'm not blaming anyone or anything. The point is that the Predator 2 scene was copied without completely thinking about what it was doing in Aliens, and what it needed to be doing in Predator 2.

And I'm not saying you are. I was speaking in general, addressing an issue some people have with meat locker scene. My point is thar, yes, it is a copy but it's one done well IMHO

choccy milk

I feel like it's less of a mean copy and more of an intentional homage, what with the Alien skull poking through later in the film & the core concept of the Predator films having to do with remixing contemporary action films and tropes, but with a Predator in. The line between 'rip-off' and 'homage' is always in the eye of the beholder.

SiL

Predator 2 is the very definition of pastiche.

choccy milk

Quote from: SiL on Oct 05, 2022, 09:41:19 PMPredator 2 is the very definition of pastiche.
Indeed. What with the punk attitude in remixing contemporary action, the more satirical tone lifted from RoboCop and the insane Predator at the helm --I always say this -- it feels like a distillation of 2000AD & similar mags with a Predator thrown in.

Boy do I need to read the Dredd crossover.

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